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(Some Guy)   Here's a supply-side idea to help alleviate poverty in the United States: deregulate the poor   (bobwaldrop.net) divider line 266
    More: Interesting, Poverty in the United States, Time To do Something Great, United States, barriers to entry, public right of ways, hot dog stand, Oklahoma Council of Public Affairs, eminent domain  
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8108 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Nov 2012 at 7:18 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-15 03:12:08 PM  
It certainly would make Oklahoma look more like Mexico, but he makes some excellent points there.
 
2012-11-15 03:25:53 PM  
Farkin' A.
 
2012-11-15 03:31:39 PM  
Damn, I live in CT and the only one of those I can think of off the top of my head that we have is the prohibition of farm animals in city limits, and even then, it's town by town.
 
2012-11-15 03:33:19 PM  
Decriminalize them first.
 
2012-11-15 03:40:55 PM  
I'm listening to Lee Atwater's full interview (link) and it leads me to believe none of this will happen unless the party power base changes.
 
2012-11-15 03:56:57 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Decriminalize them first.


Sure, while we're at it.
 
2012-11-15 03:57:51 PM  
Didn't Reagan do that back in the 80's?
 
2012-11-15 04:00:03 PM  
That's a pretty good list.
 
2012-11-15 04:11:19 PM  
You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.
 
2012-11-15 04:22:21 PM  
The author is basically saying "stop acting like you're a state in a first world country and act like the 3rd world."

Which, hey, it's OK, so the man has a point.
 
2012-11-15 04:24:34 PM  
It would be awesome if poor people could sell crack in your front yard. Just think of the free enterprise!
 
2012-11-15 04:31:23 PM  
Get in the RV, kids! We're going to Tijuanahoma!
 
2012-11-15 04:31:27 PM  
Great notion FTFA: "Our experiment in ordered liberty is at stake. It won't do for Oklahoma's political leaders to "play it safe by adjusting the rudder slightly to the right and enjoy the ride until you term out of office," as my colleague Michael Carnuccio put it. "We live in a day and age when we need leadership - the kind that is strong, bold and transformational.""

Problem with the great notion: Give or take a little hyperbole, there has never been any other kind of age.

For Instance: One of the biggest difficulties the working, or would-be working poor have is keeping up with their cars. The expense of licensing, paying fines, extortion by the insurance industry, being ticketed for not paying the fines, being unable to get to work without a current registration, driver license, and insurance. Being arrested for driving anyway. And so on down a dark, often irrecoverable spiral.

Solution: Decent, safe, efficient, timely public transportation.

Problem: There isn't very much of that, and essentially none in rural and semi-rural areas, and there may never be. That industry, which nearly always requires government subsidies, was destroyed long ago by the automobile industry.

The bigger problem: After the bullsh*t, politicians and taxpayers don't give a damn about the poor, resulting in a population segment that doesn't even realize the value in trying. Also, there is big revenue for governments and, increasingly, for-profit industries in incarcerating and fining the poor, the stupid, and the hapless, making the condition self-sustaining.

Solution: If America, and most of the "West", is to survive in any acceptable manner we have all got to realize that we are all in this together, including people who are dirty, hungry, unmotivated and have no respect for our "society". Only the richest of the rich don't have to care, but these few have tremendous power over the rest of us, in no small measure through marketing tools and our own ignorance, greed, and laziness. I am not hopeful that the populace will wise up on their own, and courageous leadership is scarce.
 
2012-11-15 04:32:11 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: The author is basically saying "stop acting like you're a state in a first world country and act like the 3rd world."

Which, hey, it's OK, so the man has a point.


Isn't that overall what Republicans want?
 
2012-11-15 04:34:52 PM  

Corvus: Isn't that overall what Republicans want?


So long as the poors suffer in the way in which they deserve.
 
2012-11-15 04:34:54 PM  
oh by the way this has been done already in "government wants to regulate everything" California:

5. Laws forbid people from making non-hazardous foods (like jams, pickles, and baked goods) at home and selling them to the public. Many states are passing cottage food industry laws that allow people to make and sell these kinds of foods in their home kitchens.
 
2012-11-15 04:35:55 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: The author is basically saying "stop acting like you're a state in a first world country and act like the 3rd world."

Which, hey, it's OK, so the man has a point.


We are talking about Oklahoma here.
 
2012-11-15 04:37:38 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.


right
because if you buy food and then get sick from eating it, you should not have any recourse.
fresh vegis for sale? no problem
jams and preserves of botulism? meh

the article is correct, most if not all of these regulations are designed to prevent death or hide poverty.

those shacks that people want to put up and then rent? they always look bad when they fall down and kill people.
licensed plumbers? sounds retarded until the guy upstairs floods your house by using an ignorant plumber.

road site stands? sounds fine until someone falls asleep and kills 100 people. or someone stops to buy crap causing traffic accidents.

not saying there isnt a middle ground ...
 
2012-11-15 04:45:41 PM  
A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.
 
2012-11-15 04:47:32 PM  
I see serious liability questions for a lot of those suggestions.

Maybe you could create a legal type of "second tier" business like this:

- Much lower barriers to entry (licensing, certification, insurance, inspections, etc)
- Company is required to disclose the fact that they are a second tier business in all advertising and to all prospective customers
- Company must be owned by a single person or small group (less than 5 people). Cannot be owned by a corporation or other type of company.
- Owners have limited liability (like a corporation), but cannot issue stock, secure outside investment, or sell the company to any group which doesn't meet the requirements to own a second tier company.
- Yearly revenue (not profits) limited to some modest value (say $100K), after which you're required to become a first-tier business and comply with all applicable regulations as they currently exist
- Companies must disclose all of their owners. Ownership of each company is a matter of public record, so people can avoid companies which are owned by known scumbags.

In the free market, second tier businesses would have to charge less to attract customers (due to their lower standards and limited liability). People can decide if they want to go to a first tier company (like Taco Bell) or a second tier company (Joe's 10-cent Taco Shack and Bait Shop) depending on their individual tolerance for risk and acceptable price range. Any company which becomes truly successful will automatically have to become a first-tier business (with all the added regulation that implies) as soon as they pass a specific revenue threshold.
 
2012-11-15 04:47:47 PM  
Also, you know who else is a proponent of growing food in your back yard?
 
2012-11-15 04:51:04 PM  

James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.


Yeah, that was another thing we don't have here. We like our tradesmen to know what they're doing. So do the insurance companies.
 
2012-11-15 04:58:03 PM  

James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years. Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-15 05:06:40 PM  

make me some tea: It certainly would make Oklahoma look more like Mexico, but he makes some excellent points there.


I go to Mexico regularly since I'm so close.

I prefer to shop over there because there are so many little businesses. They might not be as tidy as a soulless big box store, but the people are friendly and it's lively. It's real capitalism.

What the author of this piece seems to miss is that the regulation, zoning, taxes, etc. are intentionally there as a barrier to entry. Placed by bigger businesses to restrict competition and keep others from challenging them.
 
2012-11-15 05:12:47 PM  

Corvus: oh by the way this has been done already in "government wants to regulate everything" California:


Someone needs to tell Juliet Pries this. It will come as a shock to her.
 
2012-11-15 05:13:08 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.



Well, most of those maladies would be a bad case of the trots, so it probably wouldn't be *that* bad...
 
2012-11-15 05:13:55 PM  

James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.


There are plenty of unlicensed plumbers, electiricans etc working everywhere. They are called "handymen."
A plumber friend of mine told me plumbers only need to know 2 things.

1. shiat runs downhill
2.Payday is Friday.
 
2012-11-15 05:17:46 PM  
our byzantine building codes and zoning ordinances that have the (presumably unintentional) impact of segregating the city by economic class

LOL
 
2012-11-15 05:19:30 PM  

quickdraw: James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.

There are plenty of unlicensed plumbers, electiricans etc working everywhere. They are called "handymen."
A plumber friend of mine told me plumbers only need to know 2 things.

1. shiat runs downhill
2.Payday is Friday.


So that's the crappy plumber who did my parents house.

There's two more rules:

The real rule #2: Hot on the left, cold on the right
#3: Don't bite your fingernails
 
2012-11-15 05:24:28 PM  

This About That: Great notion FTFA: "Our experiment in ordered liberty is at stake. It won't do for Oklahoma's political leaders to "play it safe by adjusting the rudder slightly to the right and enjoy the ride until you term out of office," as my colleague Michael Carnuccio put it. "We live in a day and age when we need leadership - the kind that is strong, bold and transformational.""

Problem with the great notion: Give or take a little hyperbole, there has never been any other kind of age.

For Instance: One of the biggest difficulties the working, or would-be working poor have is keeping up with their cars. The expense of licensing, paying fines, extortion by the insurance industry, being ticketed for not paying the fines, being unable to get to work without a current registration, driver license, and insurance. Being arrested for driving anyway. And so on down a dark, often irrecoverable spiral.

Solution: Decent, safe, efficient, timely public transportation.

Problem: There isn't very much of that, and essentially none in rural and semi-rural areas, and there may never be. That industry, which nearly always requires government subsidies, was destroyed long ago by the automobile industry.

The bigger problem: After the bullsh*t, politicians and taxpayers don't give a damn about the poor, resulting in a population segment that doesn't even realize the value in trying. Also, there is big revenue for governments and, increasingly, for-profit industries in incarcerating and fining the poor, the stupid, and the hapless, making the condition self-sustaining.

Solution: If America, and most of the "West", is to survive in any acceptable manner we have all got to realize that we are all in this together, including people who are dirty, hungry, unmotivated and have no respect for our "society". Only the richest of the rich don't have to care, but these few have tremendous power over the rest of us, in no small measure through marketing tools and our own ignorance, greed, and laziness ...


I detest much public transit as well. My own city doesn't operate it on Sundays, has limited hours on Saturdays, and stops at 7 on weekdays. And there are only 6 routes. But much of what was done to public transit was done by government. They regulated private public transportation to death so they could take it over. The best example would be the NY subway system. The prices of fares were regulated and the city wouldn't let it go up, so they went bankrupt and the city bought them out.
 
2012-11-15 05:28:53 PM  

make me some tea: It certainly would make Oklahoma look more like Mexico, but he makes some excellent points there.


Exactly what I was thinking. That sort of flexibility to make an income in a bunch of different ways works surprisingly well.
 
2012-11-15 05:37:45 PM  
Most of the laws and ordinances listed make good sense for a number of reasons, although they can go too far. The real message I get (or perhaps read into the article is this:

It is hypocritical to extol the virtues of the unfettered Free MarketTM while espousing those regulations that themselves add barriers to people entering the market. Absolute, purist ideology is the real problem. It it the political equivalent of "zero tolerance" in schools--remove all means or capability to rationally deal with any given problem and go straight for the canned ideological response.
 
2012-11-15 05:39:14 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.


We need this anyway. It should be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone, even a lawyer. No, ESPECIALLY a lawyer, to make a living off personal damages suits.
 
2012-11-15 05:57:32 PM  

palladiate: quickdraw: James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.

There are plenty of unlicensed plumbers, electiricans etc working everywhere. They are called "handymen."
A plumber friend of mine told me plumbers only need to know 2 things.

1. shiat runs downhill
2.Payday is Friday.

So that's the crappy plumber who did my parents house.

There's two more rules:

The real rule #2: Hot on the left, cold on the right
#3: Don't bite your fingernails


At the theatre I work at there is a toilet plumbed with hot water.
 
2012-11-15 06:02:03 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: The author is basically saying "stop acting like you're a state in a first world country and act like the 3rd world."


To be fair, it's Oklahoma, which is pretty much a 3rd world country.
 
2012-11-15 06:12:56 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.


Suing poor people who are likely to be unencumbered by assets or liability insurance?
I think their cunning plan has got you covered.
 
2012-11-15 06:48:16 PM  

dethmagnetic: I see serious liability questions for a lot of those suggestions.

Maybe you could create a legal type of "second tier" business like this:


California already does this for home kitchens. There is just a limit on how much business you can do. Once you make more than that limit then the heavier regulation applies to you.
 
2012-11-15 06:49:40 PM  

doglover: We need this anyway. It should be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone, even a lawyer. No, ESPECIALLY a lawyer, to make a living off personal damages suits.


So who would then represent these people if lawyers were not allowed to make money off it?

Are you really that myopic?
 
2012-11-15 06:53:04 PM  

unyon: make me some tea: It certainly would make Oklahoma look more like Mexico, but he makes some excellent points there.

Exactly what I was thinking. That sort of flexibility to make an income in a bunch of different ways works surprisingly well.


Uh-huh. That's why over 51% of Mexico's population lives below that nation's poverty line.
 
2012-11-15 07:10:54 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: unyon: make me some tea: It certainly would make Oklahoma look more like Mexico, but he makes some excellent points there.

Exactly what I was thinking. That sort of flexibility to make an income in a bunch of different ways works surprisingly well.

Uh-huh. That's why over 51% of Mexico's population lives below that nation's poverty line.


The US is not Mexico. An example of this sort of thing working in practice is NYC. We have more private street vendors, street fairs with private vendors (awesome food too), bodegas, mom and pop restaurants, and other small business capitalism than any other place in this country. The big chains are here, but they are in the background compared to the thousands of small businesses. In parts of Brooklyn and Queens you are allowed to grow your own chickens and produce on the roof of buildings as long as it doesn't bother neighbors. It all has to be licensed of course, and it's tightly controlled but it is allowed. No reason this can't work anywhere else with even looser rules.
 
2012-11-15 07:24:57 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Corvus: oh by the way this has been done already in "government wants to regulate everything" California:

Someone needs to tell Juliet Pries this. It will come as a shock to her.


So you don't understand the difference between state and city ordinances.
 
2012-11-15 07:24:58 PM  
There are 2 things you can do to help the poor

1) Educate them
2) Pay them to not have more than 2 children per couple.
 
2012-11-15 07:26:16 PM  
A lot of these are really good ideas, but there's one big reason they will never be implemented. These are small scale, cash-only businesses, and it would be almost impossible to collect income and sales taxes from these people. And the government isn't about to give these moochers another gift.
 
2012-11-15 07:26:45 PM  
I'm a fer it
 
2012-11-15 07:27:07 PM  

This About That: Solution: Decent, safe, efficient, timely public transportation.


zOMG SOOOOOOOCIALISM!
 
2012-11-15 07:31:33 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.


This. But on the other hand, because not every home business is going to be run flawlessly, there would need to be a level of mandatory insurance coverage for the businesses.
 
2012-11-15 07:32:30 PM  
10. In most areas it would be illegal to put a trailer house in your back yard and allow someone to rent it or to put a trailer house or even a manufactured home on an empty lot.

FREE DOUBLE-WIDE!!
 
2012-11-15 07:35:44 PM  

toddalmighty: palladiate: quickdraw: James!: A lot of this stuff is already happening in liberal states and it's worked fine for years.  Not the unlicensed plumber thing though, that's dumb.

There are plenty of unlicensed plumbers, electiricans etc working everywhere. They are called "handymen."
A plumber friend of mine told me plumbers only need to know 2 things.

1. shiat runs downhill
2.Payday is Friday.

So that's the crappy plumber who did my parents house.

There's two more rules:

The real rule #2: Hot on the left, cold on the right
#3: Don't bite your fingernails

At the theatre I work at there is a toilet plumbed with hot water.


i worked at a place with one of those. It was actually pretty comfy in the winter. Just don't forget to flush.
 
2012-11-15 07:35:56 PM  

AdolfOliverPanties: You'd have to have some kind of tort reform to go along with it. Assholes would stream into Oklahoma to buy home-made or home-cooked items and then sue for damages from any number of maladies.


If you totally de-regulate food vendors, many of those maladies will be for real. Excuse me while I make another run to the toilet.
 
2012-11-15 07:39:32 PM  
I am totally behind re-legalizing boarding houses.
 
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