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(CNBC)   President Obama's offer to resolve the fiscal cliff is a "sucker's game" according to a billionaire who is going to be fine no matter what   (cnbc.com) divider line 171
    More: Asinine, President Obama, Maria Bartiromo, Squawk Box, Rick Santelli, Wilbur Ross  
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2489 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Nov 2012 at 2:44 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-15 01:08:44 PM
"it's not a revenue problem"

Really. I guess all of those past and current liabilities are just part of my imagination.
 
2012-11-15 01:19:26 PM
media.cnbc.com

Harry Smith's Evil Twin
 
2012-11-15 02:45:27 PM
Oh Wilbur.
 
2012-11-15 02:47:00 PM
Yes, Mr. Billionaire, the American people are absolutely ready to take your advice at face value. Wait, no they aren't. 56% said they want to increase your taxes, so suck it.
 
2012-11-15 02:48:35 PM
Considering the Republicans have already taken the "read my lips, no new taxes" stance again, I'm sure the fiscal cliff will totally be avoided.

/we're all screwed
 
2012-11-15 02:49:21 PM
Can we just tax this guy please?
 
2012-11-15 02:50:26 PM
If you are fiscally responsible, you should support the 'fiscal cliff'. Austerity and tax hikes are the only means to reduce the deficit in the short- to medium-term. The Democrat idea of cutting taxes and increasing spending slightly less than historical averages is not an answer. Neither is the Republicon answer of cutting taxes and cutting spending by an insignificant amount. Tax cuts should be off the table entirely.
 
2012-11-15 02:50:32 PM
all these rich people who biatch and moan about chipping in a little more would be good to study their history. particularly 1780s-1800s France.
 
2012-11-15 02:51:11 PM
Wow, it's as if Ayn Rand rewrote Charlotte's Web.

Even got the same name for the pig!
 
2012-11-15 02:52:39 PM
"The whole focus is on revenues," he noted. "You can't solve the bulk of the problem with revenues. It's not going to happen."

You can't solve the bulk of the problem by shutting down Big Bird or taking free lunches away from poor school kids, but that's what you idiots proposed. You twiddledicks and your Teabaggers got yourself into this mess. Whining isn't going to get you out. You're stuck. Boehner can't do anything with the House because of Norquist Knuckleheads and you don't have the Senate or the Big Chair. You're farked. Taxes are going up on the wealthy one way or another.
 
2012-11-15 02:53:02 PM
Since the GOP keeps hammering on how we should accept the recommendations of the Simpson-Bowles Commission, and considering we've already cut $1.8 of the $2.2 trillion in federal spending recommended by the commission (but the plan was not passed on to the Congress, because it didn't pass a vote of the committee -- and voted against by Congressman and VP Candidate Ryan), when will we get to the revenue-raising part?

Ya know, the raising taxes part?

The GOP really wants to reduce the deficit, right?

Right?
 
2012-11-15 02:53:23 PM
If only House Republicans hadn't agreed to this "sucker's game" in 2010.
 
2012-11-15 02:53:31 PM

Summercat: Wow, it's as if Ayn Rand rewrote Charlotte's Web.

Even got the same name for the pig!


Wilbur McRollsinhisownshiat?
 
2012-11-15 02:53:58 PM
'This may be my last chance to sell things at the lower capital gains rate,' " he said.

hah!

investor: well, i've invested a dollar made 10 and the gov't wants to tax that profit at a higher rate some time soon...better cash out because if i make even more profit that won't offset the taxes i will pay :( . Why do the poor people of this nation want my portfolio to starve? why can't Fox News make them understand?
 
2012-11-15 02:54:43 PM
Hmm, I think I'll listen to the Oracle of Omaha who said the exact OPPOSITE and thinks that he and all other billionaires SHOULD be paying higher taxes, even suggesting that they could go back to 1950's rates without harming the economy at all.
 
2012-11-15 02:55:42 PM

Shaggy_C: If you are fiscally responsible, you should support the 'fiscal cliff'. Austerity and tax hikes are the only means to reduce the deficit in the short- to medium-term. The Democrat idea of cutting taxes and increasing spending slightly less than historical averages is not an answer. Neither is the Republicon answer of cutting taxes and cutting spending by an insignificant amount. Tax cuts should be off the table entirely.


Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Austerity has been proven -- is in fact being proven RIGHT NOW -- not to work. Democrats want to raise taxes (for the most part) and cut military spending (sort of). Republicans just want to cut taxes on the wealthy and keep spending as much as possible because they really truly think deficits don't matter.
 
2012-11-15 02:56:35 PM
HOW TO BENEFIT (as a billionaire) FROM THE FISCAL CLIFF!

1) Massive cuts to government spending cripple thousands of small businesses with halted contracts for government orders.
2) Buy out crippled small businesses and their contracts for a fraction of their prior value.
3) Merge and consolidate businesses where ever possible.
4) Agree to pay a higher tax rate on income but keep capital gains low and flat.
5) Government spending resumes, contracts for your bevy of small businesses come through
6) Take profits as capital gains at the lower tax rate.
 
2012-11-15 02:57:26 PM
He's rich. After him!
 
2012-11-15 02:58:01 PM

Isitoveryet: 'This may be my last chance to sell things at the lower capital gains rate,' " he said.

hah!

investor: well, i've invested a dollar made 10 and the gov't wants to tax that profit at a higher rate some time soon...better cash out because if i make even more profit that won't offset the taxes i will pay :( . Why do the poor people of this nation want my portfolio to starve? why can't Fox News make them understand?


The investor is actually doing the smart thing by cashing out now and paying taxes on the profits at a known low rate. They can just buy back in as soon as they know what the rate is going to be next year.
 
2012-11-15 02:59:03 PM

wildcardjack: HOW TO BENEFIT (as a billionaire) FROM THE FISCAL CLIFF!

1) Massive cuts to government spending cripple thousands of small businesses with halted contracts for government orders.
2) Buy out crippled small businesses and their contracts for a fraction of their prior value.
3) Merge and consolidate businesses where ever possible.
4) Agree to pay a higher tax rate on income but keep capital gains low and flat.
5) Government spending resumes, contracts for your bevy of small businesses come through
6) Take profits as capital gains at the lower tax rate.


Yep, that is exactly what will happen. One way or another, these investors are NOT going to come out of this without making money because that is what they do. They don't actually create capital at all, despite the fact that we call it capital gains. What they create is artificial wealth transfer.
 
2012-11-15 02:59:37 PM

Reminder: The "fiscal cliff" is a self-imposed fake crisis that powerful & wealthy people are using as an excuse to slash social spending.

- David Roberts (@drgrist) November 15, 2012
 
2012-11-15 02:59:46 PM
FishyFred
Republicans just want to cut taxes on the wealthy and keep spending as much as possible because they really truly think deficits don't matter.

I know lots of Republicans. None of the "truly" think this.
 
2012-11-15 03:00:04 PM
"The trade-off the president proposed is not a trade-off," Ross said on "Squawk Box". "To say give me what I want, which is the middle-class relief, and I'll give you a framework for negotiations, that's a sucker's game."

So, the Republicans do NOT want middle-class tax relief? I'm shocked.

"I think part of the market weakness you are seeing is lots of investors saying, 'This may be my last chance to sell things at the lower capital gains rate,' " he said.

Maybe this is a dumb question, but when these savvy investors sell off all of their stock to avoid paying an extra few percentage points in taxes, where are they putting that money? Where are they going with it that it is earning more for them than the stock market would even with the higher tax rates? I'll admit that I am fairly ignorant when it comes to such matters, but it seems like paying a few percentage points more on the PROFIT that they make having that money invested (or possibly getting a tax break if they happen to lose money) would be preferable to taking that money and burying it in a coffee can in the back yard to lose value to inflation.
 
2012-11-15 03:00:57 PM
If these idiots were really going to leave they would have. They're not going to because they have nowhere to go because as a combination of standard of living and tax rate, this is the best place to be a multi-millionaire/billionaire.

So quit your farking whining you useless crybaby.

/ set the tax rates on everyone back to where they were at the end of the Clinton years
 
2012-11-15 03:01:46 PM
These shiatbags failed at trying to buy lower taxes via a Romney presidency, I'd hope nobody listens to them now and we raise their taxes.
 
2012-11-15 03:02:18 PM

Diogenes: [media.cnbc.com image 200x150]

media.cnbc.com

Harry Smith's Evil Twin


More like Kurtwood Smith, dumbass
 
2012-11-15 03:03:22 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: FishyFred
Republicans just want to cut taxes on the wealthy and keep spending as much as possible because they really truly think deficits don't matter.

I know lots of Republicans. None of the "truly" think this.


You realize that was the crux of MItt Romney's entire economic plan, right? Cut taxes on the rich and massively increase military spending?
 
2012-11-15 03:04:05 PM
What they're worried about is that once the middle class tax cuts are safe, the Obama administration is going to say "You know what? We've gone too long with upper class taxes being so low. We have to make up for lost time and revenue. So the maximum tax rate isn't going back to 39.5%, it's going to 44.5%." That is what the banksters are preemptively fighting tooth and nail, because once the concerned Tea Partyer realizes the debt can be eliminated slowly through taxes on the wealthy, eliminating it quickly by increasing those taxes is the next logical step.
 
2012-11-15 03:05:24 PM
"To say give me what I want, which is the middle-class relief, and I'll give you a framework for negotiations, that's a sucker's game."

So what the billionaire GOPer is saying is that the GOP doesn't get anything from this now, because they don't also want middle class tax relief?

Shocker.
 
2012-11-15 03:06:01 PM
I don't understand how it isn't a revenue problem if we bring in 15.4% of GDP and historically we're closer to 18-19%

Math alone tells me we have a revenue problem before we even get to what the actual GDP spent on government is. we're missing like 20% or so of our revenues.
 
2012-11-15 03:06:36 PM
Raising taxes on the middle and working classes right now is a terrible idea. The economic recovery is still fragile and consumers need more pocket money to keep growth afloat.

Cutting spending is also a terrible idea. Austerity actively harms economies, it doesn't help them in any way.

In the short term (1-2 years), taxes should be raised on the affluent (>$200K/year incomes) since they don't spend as big a fraction of their income in propelling the economy. Once the unemployment gets down below 6%, slowly raise taxes on incomes below 200 grand. Also slowly raise taxes above and increase the number of tax brackets by two or three. Make the top bracket, oh, $5 million and tax it at 50-60%. Also, increase the cap in FICA taxes from $110K to $250K and index the cap to wage growth.
 
2012-11-15 03:06:44 PM

Teresaol31: wildcardjack: HOW TO BENEFIT (as a billionaire) FROM THE FISCAL CLIFF!

1) Massive cuts to government spending cripple thousands of small businesses with halted contracts for government orders.
2) Buy out crippled small businesses and their contracts for a fraction of their prior value.
3) Merge and consolidate businesses where ever possible.
4) Agree to pay a higher tax rate on income but keep capital gains low and flat.
5) Government spending resumes, contracts for your bevy of small businesses come through
6) Take profits as capital gains at the lower tax rate.

Yep, that is exactly what will happen. One way or another, these investors are NOT going to come out of this without making money because that is what they do. They don't actually create capital at all, despite the fact that we call it capital gains. What they create is artificial wealth transfer.


Yes. So we all agree that through government actions, the rich will get richer. It's almost like then planned it in advance.
 
2012-11-15 03:06:55 PM

Cletus C.: He's rich. After him!


Amen.

Shoot dickbags like this in the face, take every penny they have, and put their children in the workhouses.

They clearly want no part of the this nation or give a damn about the well-being of the country itself or the people in it. They just want to hollow it out for their own benefit.

To them, it's just some stranger's keg party to crash, drink everything they can without chipping in, tear some shiat up for fun, maybe pocket some valuables, and then get the hell out and leave others with the fallout.
 
2012-11-15 03:07:26 PM

clambam: What they're worried about is that once the middle class tax cuts are safe, the Obama administration is going to say "You know what? We've gone too long with upper class taxes being so low. We have to make up for lost time and revenue. So the maximum tax rate isn't going back to 39.5%, it's going to 44.5%." That is what the banksters are preemptively fighting tooth and nail, because once the concerned Tea Partyer realizes the debt can be eliminated slowly through taxes on the wealthy, eliminating it quickly by increasing those taxes is the next logical step.


There's not reason it shouldn't be 90% You wanna be a billionaire? Put some skin back in the game.
 
2012-11-15 03:07:43 PM

SuperT: all these rich people who biatch and moan about chipping in a little more would be good to study their history. particularly 1780s-1800s France.


upload.wikimedia.org

Louis XVI. Before.

www.rjgeib.com

Louis XVI. After.

One thing you have to say, revolutions sure are good way to lose weight.
 
2012-11-15 03:07:56 PM

Emposter: "To say give me what I want, which is the middle-class relief, and I'll give you a framework for negotiations, that's a sucker's game."


This is the entire GOP's negotiating tactic, and its use is not confined to domestic policy. Look at how Bush's administration dealt with Iran: ending the nuclear program was a precondition to starting talks about ending the nuclear program.
 
2012-11-15 03:08:00 PM

SuperT: all these rich people who biatch and moan about chipping in a little more would be good to study their history. particularly 1780s-1800s France.


Yeah, I think a lot of people on the right side need to understand a fundamental truth about society.


If someone wants to work, but is either unable to find work or isn't paid enough to live on, then the corporations have failed to provide them with a livelihood.

Private charities can help fill in the shortfall, but more often then not they fail to make up the entire shortfall. So private charities have failed them as well.

Some people are fortunate enough to have family who can support them, but many people are in a situation where their family is just as impoverish as they are, or simply unwilling to lend assistance for one reason or another. So their families have failed them.

If the government doesn't fill in the shortfall between what people actually need and what corporations, private charities, and family are able/willing to provide, then society as a whole has failed these people. When this happens, people become angry.

This anger is very real regardless of whether others feel it is legitimate or not. If enough people get angry enough together, then they can tear the social order to pieces. As you said we saw it in the French revolution, and we saw it again in the Russian revolution in the early 20th century.


I'm not going to argue about whether or not people are really entitled to a livelihood or whether they'd replace the current social order with a better one. Because the answer to those questions is irreverent in the here and now. If you benefit from the social order that exists in the present, and if you are wealthy you very much do, you need to ensure the people remain content enough not to tear it all down. If that means when you look at your bank account balance you see 450 million instead of 500 million, then that is a small price to pay to avoid getting lined up against a wall and shot.
 
2012-11-15 03:08:40 PM
Do any of you actually ever watch CNBC? It is nearly indistinguishable from Fox News. This used to surprise me.

Bloomberg is my TV source for financial news these days.
 
2012-11-15 03:09:31 PM

GRAND BARGAIN: $100/ton CO2 tax, rising 1% a yr. 25% deficit reduction; 25% reducing payroll tax; 25% clean energy; 25% low-income rebates.

- David Roberts (@drgrist) October 25, 2012


This would be a good negotiation starting point if we had anyone on the left in the WH.
 
2012-11-15 03:09:35 PM

mod3072: Maybe this is a dumb question, but when these savvy investors sell off all of their stock to avoid paying an extra few percentage points in taxes, where are they putting that money? Where are they going with it that it is earning more for them than the stock market would even with the higher tax rates? I'll admit that I am fairly ignorant when it comes to such matters, but it seems like paying a few percentage points more on the PROFIT that they make having that money invested (or possibly getting a tax break if they happen to lose money) would be preferable to taking that money and burying it in a coffee can in the back yard to lose value to inflation.


If they raise the capital gains tax from 15% to 20%, your investment would have to increase by 5% between now and the date the new tax rate becomes effective. The stock market has taken a beating since election day because rich, unpatriotic assholes are selling lots of holdings in anticipation of SOSHULIZM.
 
2012-11-15 03:09:49 PM

JokerMattly: I don't understand how it isn't a revenue problem if we bring in 15.4% of GDP and historically we're closer to 18-19%

Math alone tells me we have a revenue problem before we even get to what the actual GDP spent on government is. we're missing like 20% or so of our revenues.


Your analysis is based on numbers. His is based on greed. Way different.
 
2012-11-15 03:10:13 PM
You know what kills me about these people? They have more money than god. This tax rate increase won't hurt them one bit. They won't even notice. What they hate is the villification of the rich, because in their own minds they are the heroes of our society. Republicans have been telling them this for over half a century.

But now the narrative is changing. Americans are realizing Reaganomics is BS. So they can either stamp their feet and cry or admit as much. If they admit it they look like they care about America, even if they don't. They can see the writing on the wall. The taxes are going up either way, and it really won't effect them in the least. Why not go full Buffett and just call for the tax increases, call for fairness, instead of looking like an entitled douchebag? Beats me.
 
2012-11-15 03:10:35 PM
String him up, hang him high, burn his corpse so the whole world will know
 
2012-11-15 03:10:45 PM

TofuTheAlmighty: Raising taxes on the middle and working classes right now is a terrible idea. The economic recovery is still fragile and consumers need more pocket money to keep growth afloat.

Cutting spending is also a terrible idea. Austerity actively harms economies, it doesn't help them in any way.

In the short term (1-2 years), taxes should be raised on the affluent (>$200K/year incomes) since they don't spend as big a fraction of their income in propelling the economy. Once the unemployment gets down below 6%, slowly raise taxes on incomes below 200 grand. Also slowly raise taxes above and increase the number of tax brackets by two or three. Make the top bracket, oh, $5 million and tax it at 50-60%. Also, increase the cap in FICA taxes from $110K to $250K and index the cap to wage growth.


You mean honest-to-god Keynesianism? Never happen, and here's why; as soon as the fiscal house comes to anything remotely resembling a semblance of order, Republicans run on a platform of cutting taxes and win. Look at what happened with the Clinton surplus.
 
2012-11-15 03:11:18 PM
"To say give me what I want, which is the middle-class relief, and I'll give you a framework for negotiations, that's a sucker's game."

So vote Republican.
 
2012-11-15 03:11:38 PM

FishyFred: Isitoveryet: 'This may be my last chance to sell things at the lower capital gains rate,' " he said.

hah!

investor: well, i've invested a dollar made 10 and the gov't wants to tax that profit at a higher rate some time soon...better cash out because if i make even more profit that won't offset the taxes i will pay :( . Why do the poor people of this nation want my portfolio to starve? why can't Fox News make them understand?

The investor is actually doing the smart thing by cashing out now and paying taxes on the profits at a known low rate. They can just buy back in as soon as they know what the rate is going to be next year.


sure it's safe & you know the rate
but won't they miss out on the gains (or losses) once they pull out? it just makes sense to me that you would apply whatever increases made in the period of the unknown to offset the increases in taxation (which i assume wouldn't be all that substantial to pull out completely) but i don't know.

at any rate, a 300% return on investment is great & i wouldn't be very upset paying taxes on that kind of return. it just seems greedy to pull out because my profits will be taxed more.

and the losses thingy never gets brought up, aren't the losses a write off?
 
2012-11-15 03:13:07 PM

Dahnkster: Do any of you actually ever watch CNBC? It is nearly indistinguishable from Fox News. This used to surprise me.

Bloomberg is my TV source for financial news these days.


Now now, a network which features, the calm, logical, well thought out investment advice of Jim Cramer can't be all bad.

www.talkingbiznews.com
 
2012-11-15 03:13:09 PM
But if we don't give the 'givers' theirs, there will be nothing left for the "takers" to take.
 
2012-11-15 03:13:32 PM

qorkfiend: Zeb Hesselgresser: FishyFred
Republicans just want to cut taxes on the wealthy and keep spending as much as possible because they really truly think deficits don't matter.

I know lots of Republicans. None of the "truly" think this.

You realize that was the crux of MItt Romney's entire economic plan, right? Cut taxes on the rich and massively increase military spending?


I thought he was going to raise revenue with the cutting of some, some not all, tax rates combined with the closing of exemption loop holes. I do not remember "MASSIVE" increases in military spending being part of that. The two are incongruous.

Regardless, that election is in the rear view mirror. Let the tax cuts expire and let the sequestration begin. What was the point of that dog and pony show if we just get to forget it happened? We voted, let it happen.
 
2012-11-15 03:13:53 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: FishyFred
Republicans just want to cut taxes on the wealthy and keep spending as much as possible because they really truly think deficits don't matter.

I know lots of Republicans. None of the "truly" think this.


I've met very few Republicans who want to cut military spending. Most of the want to cut PBS or PlannedParenthood, etc. They won't stop and do the math and realize that cuts to these small programs won't make a dent in the budget. When countered they say "Each small step matters" Ugh. Its as if I just took a 20% cut in pay, and I had a $1000 a month car payment, and a $1000 a month vacation budget. And i decided that what i really needed to do was cut my netflix account ($8/month) but promised I'd install new rims on my car.
 
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