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(TampaBay.com (St. Petersburg Tim)   Panel formed to review state's "Stand-Your-Ground" law says it's fine as it is, no changes needed, nothing to see here, move along   (tampabay.com) divider line 173
    More: Florida, justifiable homicides, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, racial minorities  
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2960 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Nov 2012 at 2:18 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-15 01:34:58 PM
Two dozen states have passed similar laws since 2005, and several studies show that so-called "justifiable homicides" have increased significantly in the places that have enacted "stand your ground" laws. Reports have also shown that the law has had disparate impacts on racial minorities, and many of the people who have successfully used it are felons.

A: No shiat justifiable homicides increased. Before the law, they weren't considered "justified", and people defending themselves were put in prison.

B: The notion of "disparate impacts" to minorities is moot without considering the situations. If, in identical situations, killers of minorities are more likely to SUCCESSFULLY use Stand Your Ground laws than are killers of whites, then yes, the way the law is enforced needs to change, because there is evidence of discrimination. The simple fact that there is a disparity doesn't actually mean anything.

C: So what if felons successfully use the Stand Your Ground law? If they are not allowed to own/possess guns, they'll be prosecuted under those laws. Otherwise, who says felons aren't allowed the same defensive rights against attack than anyone else?
 
2012-11-15 01:36:53 PM
Good.

Look, you come after me and intend to cause me serious bodily injury or even death and I kill you, I should not have to face any charges from the state or litigation from your loved ones from protecting myself from pain or death.

SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman, but there are countless incidents where a homeowner, or average citizen has legally protected themselves and been protected by this law.

Only idiots, the misinformed or sociopaths believe that SYG laws are a license to just start popin' caps in every mothafarka' that looks at you weird.
 
2012-11-15 01:38:44 PM

dahmers love zombie: C: So what if felons successfully use the Stand Your Ground law? If they are not allowed to own/possess guns, they'll be prosecuted under those laws. Otherwise, who says felons aren't allowed the same defensive rights against attack than anyone else?


Because they once did something wrong, and we as a society for some reason love to continue to shiat all over people who have farked up in life?
 
2012-11-15 02:19:45 PM
weknowmemes.com
 
2012-11-15 02:21:23 PM

Endive Wombat: Because they once did something wrong, and we as a society for some reason love to continue to shiat all over people who have farked up in life?


He's killed 130 people in a shooting spree at a mall, but it was just that one time so it's all good..
 
2012-11-15 02:21:40 PM
This is why I love concealed carry.

moving right along.

Time for lunch.
 
2012-11-15 02:22:21 PM
ooh! It's been a while... DRINK!
 
2012-11-15 02:23:35 PM

Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,


Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.
 
2012-11-15 02:24:06 PM
There's nothing wrong with the law.

It just needs to be interpreted as it's written.
 
2012-11-15 02:24:38 PM

TheDarkDevice: ooh! It's been a while... DRINK!


Actually, now that the election is over, the case against Epstein will be quietly dropped, because he will have been found to have acted within the law.
 
2012-11-15 02:24:47 PM

dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.


His name is Carlos Goldbaum.
 
2012-11-15 02:26:34 PM
You mean all of the speculation about how these laws are going to cause an epidemic of people picking fights just for the excuse to kill someone is all horseshiat? I'm shocked. I just cannot believe that the anti-gun folks would lie like that.
 
2012-11-15 02:27:33 PM
s7.postimage.org

"That there is just a technicality."
 
2012-11-15 02:27:53 PM
Dimmerman has NO right to claim self defense under "stand your ground".

He wasn't standing.

He was pinned to the ground as Martin tried to beat him to death.


/JUSTICE FOR TRAYVON!
 
2012-11-15 02:28:12 PM

umad: You mean all of the speculation about how these laws are going to cause an epidemic of people picking fights just for the excuse to kill someone is all horseshiat? I'm shocked. I just cannot believe that the anti-gun folks would lie like that.


Yeah, funny how that never actually happens.
 
2012-11-15 02:30:07 PM

topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.


Jesus Guttmann.
 
2012-11-15 02:30:42 PM
Florida and Hero tags morph into one.
 
2012-11-15 02:31:19 PM
Does the law still not apply if you defend youself against "youths"? Last i heard it didn't apply then and it would get you a Murder 2 rap.
 
2012-11-15 02:31:57 PM

dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.


Santiago Goldberg
 
2012-11-15 02:32:07 PM
Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable. But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense, then *any killing* with no witnesses becomes justifiable homicide. And that's an awful lot of injustice to swallow, for a law that was supposedly developed to limit injustice.
 
2012-11-15 02:34:26 PM
Bravo Florida!!

Common sense prevails.
 
2012-11-15 02:34:32 PM
Righto, ringersol

History is written by the victors.
 
2012-11-15 02:34:54 PM

redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg


Javier Cohen
 
2012-11-15 02:35:10 PM

umad: You mean all of the speculation about how these laws are going to cause an epidemic of people picking fights just for the excuse to kill someone is all horseshiat? I'm shocked. I just cannot believe that the anti-gun folks would lie like that.


According to the article those things DID happen, but the Republican-dominated commission decided not to include those studies.
 
2012-11-15 02:36:04 PM

Endive Wombat: dahmers love zombie: C: So what if felons successfully use the Stand Your Ground law? If they are not allowed to own/possess guns, they'll be prosecuted under those laws. Otherwise, who says felons aren't allowed the same defensive rights against attack than anyone else?

Because they once did something wrong, and we as a society for some reason love to continue to shiat all over people who have farked up in life?


I'm for SYG but I think you're oversimplifying things to make a point there. Not all felons merely "once did something wrong", there are plenty who did some serious psychopathic shiat and your response makes it sound like you think it's silly to restrict those people from guns and whatnot.

If you want to argue that it shouldn't be a blanket ban for all felonies (e.g. drug possession vs murder) I agree but you shouldn't have to scratch your melon very long before coming up with some good cases where "for some reason" isn't too hard to figure out. Not every felon is a poor misunderstood guy who stole a car as a 17 year old, it isn't too hard to come up with plenty of explanations. "for some reason we as a society" seems deliberately obtuse or you're only referring to some felonies, but if you really can't see any cases where felonies should be punished for life I'll quote you and say "you're either an idiot or misinformed."

To clarify, I don't care if you're Charles Manson, you have a right to defend yourself. However I wouldn't conflate that with a right to own a gun (I'm guessing SYG isn't particular to guns as a method either) and I don't think thats "society" being a bunch of dumb pussies either.
 
2012-11-15 02:38:11 PM

ringersol: Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable. But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense, then *any killing* with no witnesses becomes justifiable homicide. And that's an awful lot of injustice to swallow, for a law that was supposedly developed to limit injustice.


Well Zimmerman could still have been claiming self defense even if SYG didn't exist. According to him, Martin was the one who initiated the physical confrontation and escalated it to the point of serious physical harm or death. He'd be entitled to defend himself with deadly force in just about any state. Pretty sure that's a holdover from common law in general. Of course, if you don't believe Zimmerman's story, it's a moot point, but I believe Zimmerman is trying to evoke SYG laws because of the legal avenues it provides.
 
2012-11-15 02:38:18 PM

ringersol: But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense


If you look into the detail of the incident, it would have been justifiable homicide in *ANY* jurisdiction, even ones where you have a so-called "duty to retreat", because Zimmerman, being pinned to the ground by Martin, could not retreat. It doesn't even matter, as a matter of law in almost every state, who started it: If you can't escape at all, the law doesn't require you to submit meekly and die.
 
2012-11-15 02:40:22 PM

ringersol: Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable. But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense, then *any killing* with no witnesses becomes justifiable homicide. And that's an awful lot of injustice to swallow, for a law that was supposedly developed to limit injustice.


I knoright? SYG is so broad people think you should be allowed to defend yourself when your attacker pins you down and bashes your skull into a concrete sidewalk, says "I'm gonna kill you motherfarker!" And then tries to pull your own gun out of your holster after you've been screaming for help for over a minute.

I mean Jesus, anything could have happened he had no right to shoot that little boy, he was innocent snowflake and had no intent to harm him! How could a law allow such blatant abuse?
 
2012-11-15 02:40:32 PM
I don't give a flying fark what the law says. Anyone breaking into my house will be greeted by a tiny woman with a big gun and a big dog.

/glad they didn't change SYG.
//get off my farking lawn.
 
2012-11-15 02:41:18 PM
I like this game... Jorge Rosenblatt
 
2012-11-15 02:41:48 PM

dittybopper: redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg

Javier Cohen


Manuel Alois Frankenberger
 
2012-11-15 02:43:09 PM
El Diablo Hymey
 
2012-11-15 02:43:15 PM

redmid17: ringersol: Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable. But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense, then *any killing* with no witnesses becomes justifiable homicide. And that's an awful lot of injustice to swallow, for a law that was supposedly developed to limit injustice.

Well Zimmerman could still have been claiming self defense even if SYG didn't exist. According to him, Martin was the one who initiated the physical confrontation and escalated it to the point of serious physical harm or death. He'd be entitled to defend himself with deadly force in just about any state. Pretty sure that's a holdover from common law in general. Of course, if you don't believe Zimmerman's story, it's a moot point, but I believe Zimmerman is trying to evoke SYG laws because of the legal avenues it provides.


Even if you don't believe Zimmerman's testimony that Martin started it, it's pretty plain from Zimmerman's injuries, Martin's lack thereof, and eyewitness testimony that placed Martin on top of Zimmerman and beating him, that Zimmerman had a right to self-defense even if he did start it: Every self-defense law I've seen says you can't claim self-defense if you started it, *UNLESS* you either tried to escape and made it plain that you didn't want to continue the conflict, *OR* if you couldn't escape.

That last exception to the general rule appears to be the case in this instance.
 
2012-11-15 02:44:05 PM
To the so-called "progressive" Democrats out there: find some other horse to beat. The right to bear arms in self-defense is a non-starter.

To the nutjob Republicans out there: find some other horse to beat. Stop trying to mess with women's reproductive rights.
 
2012-11-15 02:45:03 PM

redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg


Tuco Benedicto Pacífico Juan María Ramírez; also known as The Rat
 
2012-11-15 02:45:08 PM

Burning_Monk: umad: You mean all of the speculation about how these laws are going to cause an epidemic of people picking fights just for the excuse to kill someone is all horseshiat? I'm shocked. I just cannot believe that the anti-gun folks would lie like that.

According to the article those things DID happen, but the Republican-dominated commission decided not to include those studies.


You seem to be confused. Maybe this will help.
 
2012-11-15 02:46:34 PM

redmid17: dittybopper: redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg

Javier Cohen

Manuel Alois Frankenberger


Alejandro Ben-Gurion
 
2012-11-15 02:47:43 PM

farkmedown: To the so-called "progressive" Democrats out there: find some other horse to beat. The right to bear arms in self-defense is a non-starter.

To the nutjob Republicans out there: find some other horse to beat. Stop trying to mess with women's reproductive rights.


I thought the idea was to beat the whores so they don't reproduce?
 
2012-11-15 02:47:51 PM

ringersol: Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable. But if the reality is that one person can intentionally follow and confront another, shoot them dead and then claim a SYG defense, then *any killing* with no witnesses becomes justifiable homicide. And that's an awful lot of injustice to swallow, for a law that was supposedly developed to limit injustice.



All evidence contradicts your version.

Sorry.
 
2012-11-15 02:49:44 PM
Good.
 
2012-11-15 02:53:54 PM
Maybe don't hide behind bushes, then jump out and tackle some guy and smash his head repeatedly into the concrete and break his nose and cause him contusions, and try to take his gun from him and kill him with it...and then claim the skittles did it.

Just a thought.
 
2012-11-15 02:54:45 PM

umad: Burning_Monk: umad: You mean all of the speculation about how these laws are going to cause an epidemic of people picking fights just for the excuse to kill someone is all horseshiat? I'm shocked. I just cannot believe that the anti-gun folks would lie like that.

According to the article those things DID happen, but the Republican-dominated commission decided not to include those studies.

You seem to be confused. Maybe this will help.


No I understand, you wish to play semantics.

"increased significantly" and "epidemic" are non-specific adjectives. And in many cases can be used interchangeably.

/nice try.
 
2012-11-15 02:55:03 PM

dittybopper: redmid17: dittybopper: redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg

Javier Cohen

Manuel Alois Frankenberger

Alejandro Ben-Gurion


Joaquin Sharon
 
2012-11-15 02:55:38 PM
ringersol
2012-11-15 02:32:07 PM

Endive Wombat: "SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman"

No, SYG is being argued because Zimmerman underscored how incredibly broadly defined "stand" and "your ground" really are.
The intent of SYG is laudable.

Yes, someone (with a history of theft, criminal violence, vandalism and possession of stolen property) has punched you in the face, knocking you to the ground, mounted you and is hammering your head into the pavement CLEARLY accepting self defense in a case like this is tooo g.d. broad.

// sarcasm
 
2012-11-15 02:56:30 PM

Burning_Monk: No I understand, you wish to play semantics.


Everyone else here is being anti-semantic
 
2012-11-15 02:59:46 PM

dittybopper: redmid17: dittybopper: topcon: dittybopper: Endive Wombat: SYG is being politicized because of George Zimmerman,

Which is stupid, because SYG doesn't apply in that case. Juan Epstein was being assaulted physically when he fired.

His name is Carlos Goldbaum.

Jesus Guttmann.

Santiago Goldberg

Javier Cohen


Pedro Rosensteinwitz
 
2012-11-15 03:00:35 PM
You should be allowed to defend yourself from attackers. No problem there.

But I'd be a lot more comfortable with these laws if they didn't have names that sounded like gun porn.

Stand Your Ground. Make My Day. Really, people?
 
2012-11-15 03:01:21 PM

Dafatone: You should be allowed to defend yourself from attackers. No problem there.

But I'd be a lot more comfortable with these laws if they didn't have names that sounded like gun porn.

Stand Your Ground. Make My Day. Really, people?


I would've preferred Blast Their Ass but that was probably taken by a porn copyright
 
2012-11-15 03:02:40 PM

Dafatone: You should be allowed to defend yourself from attackers. No problem there.

But I'd be a lot more comfortable with these laws if they didn't have names that sounded like gun porn.

Stand Your Ground. Make My Day. Really, people?


'Stand your ground' is derived from a line in a SCOTUS case from 1895, hardly the same arena. Obviously 'make my day' is a Dirty Harry line, so you have something there.
 
2012-11-15 03:03:19 PM
You know, there have been more SYG cases than just the whole Treyvon Martin thing.

Like the one where the mentally disabled kid was shot because he was allegedly 'swinging a weapon ' (in the air) after said almost hit him.

Despite no weapon being found at or anywhere near the scene, and witnesses saying he swung his *fists* in the air at the car. And the driver admitting he didn't feel he and his wife were in mortal danger.

Link

Link

/I'll try to find links that seem a little more neutral, but it wasn't a widely reported event.

And lastly (
 
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