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(Mother Jones)   Holy crap. Democrats are classified as 1/2 a person when it comes to voting in States that commit the worst election fraud ever known to humankind   (motherjones.com) divider line 68
    More: Misc, California Democrats, elections, Windsor Castle, House of Representatives  
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5346 clicks; posted to Politics » on 15 Nov 2012 at 9:20 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-15 12:48:25 AM
Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.
 
2012-11-15 12:59:39 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-11-15 06:22:59 AM
Republicans really do hate voters.
 
2012-11-15 06:36:40 AM
This sucks, but this thread is gonna die quietly because everybody thinks they know about gerrymandering.

So they don't really care about the effects of it, or the claim that the GOP put the lock on the House for 10 years.
 
2012-11-15 06:39:50 AM
I should add that I live in central Iowa, and have just gotten rat bastard Steve King shoved up my ass due to redistricting.
 
2012-11-15 08:41:06 AM
So, what, black democrats are 3/5ths of a half?
 
2012-11-15 09:05:19 AM

LockeOak: [upload.wikimedia.org image 635x379]


That district totally makes sense.
 
2012-11-15 09:14:54 AM

delsydsoftware: Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.


As a white guy that lives in the 12th I am totally frustrated that the 12th has been racially gerrymandered. It's even worse that the SCOTUS allowed it. Link

I do not care if he is a dem, Mel Watt is a POS sellout to wall street and the entertainment industry and we are stuck with him over SCOTUS sanctioned racism.
 
2012-11-15 09:15:22 AM
Holly crap

Is that what you get after you eat too many of the christmas decorations?
 
2012-11-15 09:25:13 AM
Any fair sort of districting is, inevitably, going to favor the Democrats.

So, clearly, the GOP/Teabaggers need to play the role of colossal dickbags in order to better increase their odds of controlling of the House.
 
2012-11-15 09:27:04 AM

Dead for Tax Reasons: Holly crap

Is that what you get after you eat too many of the christmasDecemberween decorations?

 
2012-11-15 09:27:49 AM
HOLLY CRAP, GUIZ
 
2012-11-15 09:29:41 AM
I'm still waiting for one of these states to totally outlaw "the Democrat Party".
 
2012-11-15 09:32:17 AM

i upped my meds-up yours: This sucks, but this thread is gonna die quietly because everybody thinks they know about gerrymandering.

So they don't really care about the effects of it, or the claim that the GOP put the lock on the House for 10 years.


okay...

Got any suggestions? Ideas for a solution?

Hey here's one; the Republicans managed this by realizing that local elections and (far cheaper to) corrupt state governments can be used to national effect in future elections. How do we get Democrats and other centrists to start actually farking voting in midterms (like 2014) instead of staying home and letting teabaggers (for the most recent example) ruin it for the rest of us?
 
2012-11-15 09:32:19 AM

Skleenar: Dead for Tax Reasons: Holly crap

Is that what you get after you eat too many of the christmasDecemberween Festivus decorations?

 
2012-11-15 09:34:52 AM
I've said this before, but I think the simplest way to fix this democratically without going though the process of dueling algorithms is to:

1. Have each party on the ballot propose their own districting plan.
2. Have voters choose which plan they prefer in the general election.
3. Use the plan that gets the most votes for the next election.

Simple to explain, and throws all of the math stuff back to the experts where it belongs. Voters have a pretty good eye on obviously gerrymandered districts, and parties are free to educate voters are why their plan is best and the other plans suck.
 
2012-11-15 09:36:18 AM

TheBigJerk: Hey here's one; the Republicans managed this by realizing that local elections and (far cheaper to) corrupt state governments can be used to national effect in future elections. How do we get Democrats and other centrists to start actually farking voting in midterms (like 2014) instead of staying home and letting teabaggers (for the most recent example) ruin it for the rest of us?


Legalized marijuana legislation in the 48 remaining states?

I mean, that would totally get the youth voters to the polls and have you ever really looked at your hand, I mean really looked at it?
 
2012-11-15 09:36:22 AM

TheBigJerk: How do we get Democrats and other centrists to start actually farking voting in midterms (like 2014) instead of staying home and letting teabaggers (for the most recent example) ruin it for the rest of us?


Recruit a bunch more seekrit mooslim commies from Kenya to run for local office?

/jk
 
2012-11-15 09:36:28 AM

delsydsoftware: Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.


What I hate about this is how it's presented as helping out minority voters. I have conservative friends who live in one of these districts (VA 3rd) complaining about how their vote doesn't matter because they live in such a gerrymandered district. Never mind that almost the entire state Representation is GOP, even though the vote is evenly split population-wise.
 
2012-11-15 09:38:53 AM

Disposable Rob: I have conservative friends who live in one of these districts (VA 3rd) complaining about how their vote doesn't matter because they live in such a gerrymandered district. Never mind that almost the entire state Representation is GOP, even though the vote is evenly split population-wise.


I have conservative friends back home in New York who wanted to come live with me in Ohio so their vote would actually count or something.
 
2012-11-15 09:39:27 AM
How about a new rule where districts are determined by computers? We have the technology, guys. It should be fairly simple to lay out a polygonal grid of equal population for each state, even accounting for things like city limits and natural boarders (rivers, highways, etc).



Bontesla: Republicans really do hate voters.



"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier. " - George W. Bush, 1998

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier... [laughter] ...just so long as I'm the dictator." - George W. Bush, 2000

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it." - George W. Bush, 2001
=Smidge= 
/Democracy is great as long as you get to dictate how the people vote.
 
2012-11-15 09:39:39 AM
Gerrymandering is an American tradition. Those in power tend to want to stay in power. Look at Bachmann. There is no logical explanation for her being reelected other than legalized cheating.
 
2012-11-15 09:39:48 AM

Snarfangel: I've said this before, but I think the simplest way to fix this democratically without going though the process of dueling algorithms is to:

1. Have each party on the ballot propose their own districting plan.
2. Have voters choose which plan they prefer in the general election.
3. Use the plan that gets the most votes for the next election.

Simple to explain, and throws all of the math stuff back to the experts where it belongs. Voters have a pretty good eye on obviously gerrymandered districts, and parties are free to educate voters are why their plan is best and the other plans suck.


I'm not so sure that this is the case. Sure, a district that snakes through from one side of the state to the other might look suspicious, but that isn't the only form a gerrymandered district takes. I don't think voters have a real feel for the geographic demographics of their respective states.

And, additionally, there the high probability that people would vote, not for the least gerrymandered map, but instead for the most gerrymandered in their political party's favor.
 
2012-11-15 09:41:13 AM

Dead for Tax Reasons: Holly crap

Is that what you get after you eat too many of the christmas decorations?


AHAHAHAHAHA.

Thank you for that.
 
2012-11-15 09:42:57 AM

Snarfangel: I've said this before, but I think the simplest way to fix this democratically without going though the process of dueling algorithms is to:

1. Have each party on the ballot propose their own districting plan.
2. Have voters choose which plan they prefer in the general election.
3. Use the plan that gets the most votes for the next election.

Simple to explain, and throws all of the math stuff back to the experts where it belongs. Voters have a pretty good eye on obviously gerrymandered districts, and parties are free to educate voters are why their plan is best and the other plans suck.


I still like my idea of giving some random precocious kindergartener a map of the state and as many differently colored crayons as they have representatives. Tell him he has to draw inside the lines, fill up the entire state, and can't overlap. Then accept his results sight unseen and without appeal.
 
2012-11-15 09:43:42 AM

Skleenar: Snarfangel: I've said this before, but I think the simplest way to fix this democratically without going though the process of dueling algorithms is to:

1. Have each party on the ballot propose their own districting plan.
2. Have voters choose which plan they prefer in the general election.
3. Use the plan that gets the most votes for the next election.

Simple to explain, and throws all of the math stuff back to the experts where it belongs. Voters have a pretty good eye on obviously gerrymandered districts, and parties are free to educate voters are why their plan is best and the other plans suck.

I'm not so sure that this is the case. Sure, a district that snakes through from one side of the state to the other might look suspicious, but that isn't the only form a gerrymandered district takes. I don't think voters have a real feel for the geographic demographics of their respective states.

And, additionally, there the high probability that people would vote, not for the least gerrymandered map, but instead for the most gerrymandered in their political party's favor.


So don't tell 'em which plan is whose. Present both maps with just the district boundaries drawn on (not colored* in), and say "pick one".

*Yes, an unintentional racial joke. Deal.

Also, he knows a thing or two about Holly crap:
theactionelite.com
 
2012-11-15 09:43:49 AM

TheBigJerk: Got any suggestions? Ideas for a solution?


Automate the process with an algorithm designed to (as much as possible):

(a) avoid splitting ZIP codes
(b) minimize perimeter
(c) avoid creating small orphaned areas
 
2012-11-15 09:45:22 AM

sammyk: delsydsoftware: Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.

As a white guy that lives in the 12th I am totally frustrated that the 12th has been racially gerrymandered. It's even worse that the SCOTUS allowed it. Link

I do not care if he is a dem, Mel Watt is a POS sellout to wall street and the entertainment industry and we are stuck with him over SCOTUS sanctioned racism.


Is it any worse than being represented by Sue Myrick.

/was represented by Walter Jones, soon by George Holding, but I donate to and consider "my Congressman" to be Butterfield
 
2012-11-15 09:47:11 AM
How about we force everyone to move to a different zip code every 2 years?

I mean, what better use for all those empty FEMA camps that are just sitting there until the revolution?
 
2012-11-15 09:48:52 AM
I don't see why you can't use existing county boundaries to set the districts...with a target population within a pre-determined number of standard deviations from the actual population need. When this isn't possible, split existing counties into halves, fourths, or eighths to get the desired results. Use math, not squiggly lines.
 
2012-11-15 09:52:29 AM

TheBigJerk: okay...

Got any suggestions? Ideas for a solution?


Eliminate the idea of districts entirely and shift to a national proportional representation system.
 
2012-11-15 09:52:33 AM
And this is exactly why the emerging Republican proposals to assign Electoral Votes by congressional district terrifies me. They know this system is currently rigged in their favor, so they're going to try to hook up presidential elections to work the same way.

Just watch. Republican governors and state legislatures all get their marching orders from the party and all start pushing the same initiatives simultaneously. After their loss in 2008 (largely due to the minority vote) they all suddenly started pushing voter ID measures in the hopes of suppressing the poor and minority vote. Now that that hasn't worked,over the next four years, the GOP-controlled states are all going to start pushing proposals to divide their EVs by district. I guarantee it.

Anyone who thinks that the GOP would maybe re-examine their platform and moderate their tone and message are deluding themselves. Their first instinct after a loss is always to figure out how they can can change the rules of the game so that they can keep doing the same thing and still win. They are enemies of democracy and they must be fought tooth-and-nail.
 
2012-11-15 09:52:38 AM

AndreMA: TheBigJerk: Got any suggestions? Ideas for a solution?

Automate the process with an algorithm designed to (as much as possible):

(a) avoid splitting ZIP codes
(b) minimize perimeter
(c) avoid creating small orphaned areas


Other concerns:
...limit the difference in population to +/- 10% between districts in a state
...try to avoid spanning navigable waterways and county lines
...where a ZIP code or town must be split, use major highways as borders
...grouping by population density (and not necessarily income)
...when necessary to split towns, favor splitting medium-sized ones
 
2012-11-15 09:57:16 AM
My Congressional district didn't even have a Democrat on the ballot. Republican, Green, Libertarian, American Constitution, and Unaffiliated. No gerrymandering needed around here.
 
2012-11-15 10:03:33 AM

delsydsoftware: Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.


The voting rights act REQUIRES what they call "minority opportunity" districts in some states. Essentially, if 15% of NC's population is of a certain minority, then 15% of it's congressional delegation should be comprised of districts in which that minority constitute a substantial amount of the voters giving that minority an opportunity to have their own congresscritter.

Second, this crap was debunked all to hell in the Barney Frank thread yesterday.

Link
 
2012-11-15 10:03:51 AM

TheBigJerk: Hey here's one; the Republicans managed this by realizing that local elections and (far cheaper to) corrupt state governments can be used to national effect in future elections.


Ah, yes; the old idiocy about state governments being easier and cheaper to corrupt. As if, merely because a national Senator could be bribed for (e.g.) $100,000, a state Senator could by implication be bribed for $2,000. As if involving larger numbers of people in your corruption scheme did not exponentially increase the risk of someone blowing the whistle.

Decentralized power is by its nature more expensive to corrupt, risker to even try corrupting, and less effective even when successfully corrupted. The only "disadvantage," if it can be called that, is that it becomes harder to ram through a controversial agenda over large regions, but that's a feature, not a bug.
 
2012-11-15 10:21:20 AM

delsydsoftware: Take a look at District 12 in North Carolina. That is one of the most heavily gerrymandered districts I have ever seen. It confines a large amount of minorities in a single district. It -has- been improved a bit since it was first drawn, but it is really ridiculous.


Came to say something among these lines. This is one reason why I've been considering moving. What they did to mental health in this state in 2010, and now just this week: Link. Then our Governor elect specifically calling NC citizens 'customers'... I've simply become disenfranchised with my home state. There are personal reasons for wanting to move, as well. Goddamnit, it's just a depressing day, for various reasons, don't mind me...
 
2012-11-15 10:39:27 AM
FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.
 
2012-11-15 10:41:20 AM
If party registrants are evenly divided across a state, then you would expect even a slight advantage in the popular vote to have a disproportional benefit for the majority party. I can't get too upset at the states with slightly higher amount of R votes having lots of seats. It could just mean that the voters are just mixed well.

Wisconsin, Penn, and Michigan however, are definitely showing some shenanigans.
 
2012-11-15 10:43:48 AM

Superjew: FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.


Seriously.

When your party's best prospects for winning elections and majorities revolve around suppressing turnout, throwing up obstacles to voting, and rigging voting districts in your favor - it's time to take a good long look in the mirror and maybe rethink your message.
 
2012-11-15 10:44:50 AM

Superjew: FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.


upload.wikimedia.org

Those damned Republicans gerrymandering their districts to suppress the minority vote! Oh, wait, Democrats in a role reversal, suppressing the middle class White and Asian vote.
 
2012-11-15 10:51:11 AM
My Congressman is a moran. (No, really. He blamed the Iraq War on "the Jews," took shady loans from a bank, traded on inside information, etc.) But he's gerrymandered himself into a safe seat, too.

/Also, getting rid of gerrymandering will also require re-working Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which requires majority-minority districts. Good luck with that.
 
2012-11-15 10:56:13 AM

Doc Daneeka: Just watch. Republican governors and state legislatures all get their marching orders from the party and all start pushing the same initiatives simultaneously.


It won't be all Republican governors and state legislatures; it'll be the Republican governors and state legislatures in states that voted for Obama, so places like Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Solid red states won't split their vote.
 
2012-11-15 11:04:24 AM

qorkfiend: It won't be all Republican governors and state legislatures; it'll be the Republican governors and state legislatures in states that voted for Obama, so places like Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Solid red states won't split their vote.


I would have no problem with a major overhaul of the districts in a non-partisan manner followed by a split of the EV's in all states. According to one report I read, President Obama visited 12 states in 2012. And he only got to NY after Sandy. Both he and Romney camped out in my back yard for 6-8 weeks. Anything that puts more states/EV's into play is fine by me and most other Ohio residents. Our votes may have "meant more" than yours but that just meant we had to put up with 10 x the bullshiat.
 
2012-11-15 11:07:44 AM

bhcompy: Superjew: FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 755x440]

Those damned Republicans gerrymandering their districts to suppress the minority vote! Oh, wait, Democrats in a role reversal, suppressing the middle class White and Asian vote.


California has used a bipartisan committee consisting of five Republicans, five Democrats, and four unaffiliated people to define districts and taken the power away from the state assembly. You can read about it here.

And it's bullshiat whenever Democrats do it too, but somehow it's Republicans keeping a majority of seats while not winning a majority of votes.
 
2012-11-15 11:10:55 AM

Bloody William: bhcompy: Superjew: FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 755x440]

Those damned Republicans gerrymandering their districts to suppress the minority vote! Oh, wait, Democrats in a role reversal, suppressing the middle class White and Asian vote.

California has used a bipartisan committee consisting of five Republicans, five Democrats, and four unaffiliated people to define districts and taken the power away from the state assembly. You can read about it here.

And it's bullshiat whenever Democrats do it too, but somehow it's Republicans keeping a majority of seats while not winning a majority of votes.


For reference, the districts drawn up by them have not been put in to play yet. We voted on approving their districts 2 weeks ago.
 
2012-11-15 11:12:09 AM
I agree with the concept that it should be computer generated. It won't be perfect, but perfection doesn't exist. There will be issues with it, but I think we can live with those issues. Continuing down this route, there will eventually be a couple of swing states, as more and more redistricting puts states in the pocket of a particular party. Eventually, complete and total stagnation. In the cereal box of these United States, settling has occurred.

How can we get to the prize buried in the cinnamon toast crunch, if we don't shake things up?

\Hilarious that people thing that things can change in 10 years to swing the other direction.
 
2012-11-15 11:14:36 AM

bhcompy: Bloody William: bhcompy: Superjew: FACT: Republicans only win when they cheat.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 755x440]

Those damned Republicans gerrymandering their districts to suppress the minority vote! Oh, wait, Democrats in a role reversal, suppressing the middle class White and Asian vote.

California has used a bipartisan committee consisting of five Republicans, five Democrats, and four unaffiliated people to define districts and taken the power away from the state assembly. You can read about it here.

And it's bullshiat whenever Democrats do it too, but somehow it's Republicans keeping a majority of seats while not winning a majority of votes.

For reference, the districts drawn up by them have not been put in to play yet. We voted on approving their districts 2 weeks ago.


I thought the latest round was made official in 2010 and they're doing a new batch with broader district-making powers now.

We should all do what Iowa does. Mathematical. Non-partisan by algorithm.
 
2012-11-15 11:30:22 AM
My congressman is a Democrat and I live in Utah, so I'm getting a kick, etc.

/He barely won in a very gerrymandered district.
 
2012-11-15 11:32:58 AM

Skleenar: Snarfangel: I've said this before, but I think the simplest way to fix this democratically without going though the process of dueling algorithms is to:

1. Have each party on the ballot propose their own districting plan.
2. Have voters choose which plan they prefer in the general election.
3. Use the plan that gets the most votes for the next election.

Simple to explain, and throws all of the math stuff back to the experts where it belongs. Voters have a pretty good eye on obviously gerrymandered districts, and parties are free to educate voters are why their plan is best and the other plans suck.

I'm not so sure that this is the case. Sure, a district that snakes through from one side of the state to the other might look suspicious, but that isn't the only form a gerrymandered district takes. I don't think voters have a real feel for the geographic demographics of their respective states.

And, additionally, there the high probability that people would vote, not for the least gerrymandered map, but instead for the most gerrymandered in their political party's favor.


I think people have a fair idea on what constitutes their own "community of interest," and parties would have time before the election to explain their proposals. There are several people in this thread proposing different ways to district -- this method could accommodate them all, and leave the choice on which one to use to the electorate.

And you can remedy the second issue to some extent by only allowing people to vote on their own district, instead of the entire map of the state. If two or more maps have the same shape and location -- which can happen if groups agree to some extent that something is a community -- then a vote for that district would be the equivalent to a vote for the maps that use it.

Here, for example, are two proposals that were offered in Oregon in 2011:
media.oregonlive.com

In case anyone is wondering, here is what was finally approved:

www.koinlocal6.com

So, hey, it could have been worse.

(A disclaimer: I would prefer proportional voting, specifically a proxy-type voting system where a legislator's power varies in proportion to the number of votes he or she receives. This suggestion is just if we decide we must have single-member legislative districts.)
 
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