Langdon_777: quietwalker: Heh.

Every other day it seems I run into people who don't understand that just because someone is living in poverty, hungry, sick, almost powerless and weak, that doesn't automatically make them the good guys. I know the US loves an underdog, but some folks are just plain stupid about this.

Gosh that sooo sounds like: "The beatings will continue until moral improves."

I can't disagree with that, because it seems to be true.

Israel has maintained a policy of escalated response in return to any attack. We, the US, have supported that policy because we felt it was the only way to enforce the illusion of peace: when faced with overwhelming losses for every aggressive action, only idiots - or irrational idealists - would fight.

Anyone can point out how this leads to a cycle of never ending retaliation. Here's the thing though, Israel is too strong to be beaten by them. The rocket attacks are completely futile, and they only incur more causalities on their own side. It doesn't matter if it seems unfair, or even if it IS unfair. The rational thing to do is to realize they lost the physical fight, they cannot win with violence, and suck up the loss of pride and the various indignities (unfairly?) imposed upon them with humility until they can be seen as rational participants in the world as a whole, and make their case with words.

This is not punitive, or targeting them specifically. This was demonstrated by germany & japan from ww2, blacks and women in pre-equality/suffrage america, and hell, the entire body of arab nations in the 1948 arab-israeli war.

In a way, they hold all the power. They simply have to want peace, in order to have it.

TheBigJerk: I should be in the kitchen: That's the biatch of it all, there is no clear-cut solution that will satisfy all parties involved... As you said, "a whole lotta gray." And with the conflicts in that region going back so far, good luck getting anyone to compromise. I believe the two-state solution to be the most equitable but unfortunately there would only be a temporary truce at best until the violence starts up again.

It's a complete clusterfark over there and I'm not comfortable with us getting dragged into yet another war in the Middle East but it's looking more and more likely. It's farking depressing that my nieces and my friends' kids have never known a time when we weren't at war.

To be fair, how many people have? America doesn't FEEL it like the semites but we've been at a state of perpetual war for 11-60+ years (depending on how and which wars you count). Even when they're "at peace" neither side has the ability (or particularly strong interest) in stopping 100% of the violence, and whether it's a couple of asshole college kids dumping dirty diapers in a well or a suicide bomber blowing up a bus the "peacetime" and "unsanctioned" attacks will be used as justification. Hell, to pull out the ridiculous and retarded US/Mexico comparison, only 25 cartel-related kidnappings was counted as "No 'spillover' violence from Mexican drug-cartel wars.

To be technical, they're ALL Semites in the region. Basically just one group fighting against another group for which magical con-man is more to their liking.

Ahhh. . . as bad as things can be over here, at least we don't have a religious government.

ideamaster: It was searched. It's intended and published destination was already Israel. So they prevented any prohibited materials from entering.

It wasn't "searched," it was off-loaded in an Israeli-controlled port and the IDF held it for several months before allowing the UN to come in and deliver it the rest of the way.

That hardly accounts to piracy. Especially since they were offered to land at an authorized port and have thier cargo inspected.

Because they have the authority to do that...according to you and in contravention of international maritime law. (I know, I know, "international law" is an oxymoron hurr hurr)

If they had nothing to hide then why didn't they accept the proper port and be searched? Also in the event you didn't know. Other weapons that fit into nice wooden boxes are easy to throw overboard.

Ah, so we're moving on to making things up entirely. And the footage of this action is mysteriously missing despite all the helicopters buzzing around the ships...why?

Also it is clear that you don't have children (or you are too stupid to realize) that they will always test thier boundaries. They might not be commiting a cardinal offense today. But they are looking go a chance to see exactly what they can get away with and how.

So Palestinians are children, but don't call you a bigot!

If you don't find a list of embargoed materials and bring that to the conversation. You can consider this conversation overI'm just making up non-sequitur demands for information that doesn't actually affect the conversation, I am a filthy troll.

Well since you put it that way, I guess I can help your useless lazy ass. I'm guessing you want to poind the pulpit that construction material was banned, construction material being really the only thing they found worth mentioning (I'm sorry, a handful of non-gun riot gear isn't worth mentioning, and calling a farking pipe wrench on a boat a "munition" is just pathetic).

After all you of superior knowledge and intellect and you extoll of the non-weaponized virtues of concrete.

Y'all are aware that Gaza got didn't get rebuilt after the last time Israel bombed it to shiat, right?

I look forward to a discussion on the supreme evils of the devil Israeldefeating more strawmen I set up and thier extreme oppression on a mon-existent nation called Palestine and the non-existent "palestinian" peoplesblathering tired old saws about dirty muslims all being "arabs" because admitting the Palestinians exist is politically inconvenient. No embargo list, no discussion.Also here's another non sequitur

Lern 2 spel nub. lulz.

Look kiddo, they raided a ship and took its cargo. They did it because of a blockade, but basically everyone but Israel and shills for Israel agrees the blockade was illegal. No one did anything about it for the same reason we don't do anything about Darfur, but a spade is a spade, a raid is a raid, and calling it "piracy" is the kind of passive-aggressive technically correct that's good clean fun.

You wouldn't even CARE if you weren't emotionally invested in shilling for Israel for some obtuse reason. I mean, let's be honest, the two ethnic groups are the mediterranean equivalent of rednecks having a feud, and have been since foreverty ago. There were terrorist actions being committed by both sides back in the days of the Ottoman Empire, I learned that when Tatsuma brought up "evils of Islam in the 1930s" and someone else countered with some local Jewish atrocity of some relatively equivalent value. It's what they did, because at the time they were peasants in a slowly-collapsing feudal empire. Hell half the problem with the land disputes is that the local land had anywhere from 2 to 5 different owners. Absentee landlords in Turkey, local squatters, the local squatters they'd kicked off of it up to 2 generations ago, OTHER absentee landlords with equally specious claims of ownership, bedouins wandering through and saying, "oh yeah, I own that land. Y'all pay cash, right?"

Palestine's shooting rockets, they're dirty and horrible. Israel's embargoing the "non-existent country" that is not allowed sovereignty but somehow not their responsibility. Bombings and shootings and poisoning wells is commonplace.

But I'm not supposed to point out when ONE side pulls some bullshiat because it's only fair if I take the side of...

which side were you one again? I've already forgotten to care.

gobstopping: To be technical, they're ALL Semites in the region.

That's why I used the term, the perpetual war sucks for everybody over there.

TheBigJerk: Look kiddo, they raided a ship and took its cargo. They did it because of a blockade, but basically everyone but Israel and shills for Israel agrees the blockade was illegal.

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_blockade
Opinion on the legality of the blockade is mixed. In September 2011, a UN investigative committee concluded in the Palmer Report that the naval blockade is legal and had to be judged isolated from the restrictions on goods reaching Gaza via the land crossings.

I guess you want to update wikipedia, but then again the jews own the media.

As for spell check, I don't think you are worth the effort, but I do appreciate you finding the list for me. I did some initial digging before, but I got sidetracked. I appreciate the assistance, it will help me with other 'tired old windbags' such as yourself.

The list seems pretty straightforward, I will see about contacting the Israeli government and complain that iphones and ipods are not allowed on that list.

As for being labeled a troll for supporting Israel, that is the least I can do. I have been called much worse for doing less. I will consider it a badge of honor. If you would let me know if you are part of the" religion of thugs peace" it would make that title so much sweeter.

ideamaster: As for being labeled a troll for supporting Israel, that is the least I can do. I have been called much worse for doing less. I will consider it a badge of honor. If you would let me know if you are part of the" religion of thugs peace" it would make that title so much sweeter.

In the West, there are two opinions on Israel v Palestine.
The first is supportive of Israel. They often cast Israel as a victim ( a nuclear-armed victim with tanks, jets, and USA to UN backing ), and they like to appear as a victim as well, if they can. Bigotry(usually the racism brand) is a frequent call of the Israel-supporter, but then they turn around and insult Islam. They are hypocrites who practice cognitive dissonance.

The second is objective. Nobody supports Palestine & Hamas, thinks that firing rockets is a good thing. But a lot of rational people are quite willing to say that Israel isn't doing a good thing either. In fact, Israel's done a lot of bad things, and most of the time, they use earlier persecutions from non-Palestinians to justify it. Objective persons are not afraid to point out that the guerillas in Palestine aren't going to be cowed by airstrikes, and this tepid eye for an eye bullshiat isn't getting anyone anywhere. For every militant they kill, they create ten more, not to mention the civilian "collateral damage" - the only way for what Israel's doing to work, is to go as far as genocide.

That's why you're being labeled a troll. Nobody thinks you're so utterly devoid of rationality. But don't worry. I don't think you're a troll at all.

Diogenes Teufelsdrockh: Mid_mo_mad_man:
So following your reasoning Canada should belong to the Danes since they where the first to settle it?

As a part Native American man, I can say:



You're racist.

Taking over a land and killing off all who've been there for thousands of years doesn't exactly put you on the moral high ground when it comes to ethical considerations of whose land it was. Whether that be the case with the native tribes of the Americas or the native Semitic tribes of the middle east. Yet, ethics are never so simple, are they?

Plus, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Offering up and considering an alternative perspective with an explanation of its grounds is not the same as taking a position. Not everyone is as simplistic in their thinking as you.

so are you part alcoholic, or full on?

RanDomino: Israel is kicking things off. The incursion last Saturday that started this mess was a blatant intentional provocation. This is coming immediately after the US elections. They've been planning for major operations for months (I hope we haven't already forgotten the preparation-porn they were showing over the summer).

Total and utter bullshiat, as usual you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about. The palestinians started this mess by firing rockets on south Israel for weeks and firing an anti-tank missile on soldier's at the border. The ones who are busy with blatant intentional provocation are the palestinians, Israel had to audacity to say 'enough is enough' and actually do something about it besides sounding alarms 4 times a day and sending civilians in all the cities/towns in the south to a bomb shelter.

If I have to pick a side, sorry ...I like the Jews...they are nicer to me, and don't scare me as much.

jehovahs witness protection: Hamas is learning that when you open fire, people tend to return fire.

But has Israel learned that when you occupy a people for like, what, 40 years? and deny them basic rights and access to medical supplies and clean wanter, those people tend to get a little sore about it.

Franko: But has Israel learned that when you occupy a people for like, what, 40 years? and deny them basic rights and access to medical supplies and clean wanter, those people tend to get a little sore about it.

Gaza is not occupied, Hamas themselves say so. If you have any complaints please direct them to the palestinian leadership who denies the basic rights of israelis to exist, israelis tend to get a little sore about it.

RanDomino: "at" is a funny way of saying "on the wrong side of"

They were on the Israeli side of the border you farking idiot. Why do you even bother ? how many times do i need to prove that you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about ?

RanDomino: "Latest UN declaration of Israel's "occupation" is part of a wider push to maintain Palestinian helplessness."

Sounds fair and balanced to me!

Oh yes, the UN has maintained a well documented fair and balanced approach to Israel.

RanDomino: Agreed that Gaza is not occupied, although it remains the world's largest concentration camp.

How dare Israel block the border with an enemy who declared war on Israel and target israeli civilians on a daily basis! this is an outrage! do i need to bother reminding you that this "concentration camp" has a border they, the palestinians, own and control with another country besides Israel rendering your latest comment utter bullshiat as well ?

RanDomino: Naturally the Israeli account of what happened is automatically correct, by default.

Are you too embarrassed to admit that you made another farking mistake ? it was a routine patrol on the israeli side of the border, as reported by every news agency. You were, again, very wrong.
I like your logic though: so none of what Hamas has said so far is correct because naturally the Hamas account of what happened is automatically correct.
Seriously, how low can you go from this one ?

RanDomino: Collective punishment? pfft more like collective fun-ishment

Direct your complaints to Hamas and the rest of the merry jihadist terrorists. If it was possible to blockade only them but sadly we live in what is known as reality. Maybe you should join us.

RanDomino: Oh, a country that's given billions of dollars a year by their enemy? yeah, who wouldn't think that's under their control?

I think someone forgot 2 things: 1. who is in charge of Egypt nowdays and 2. the border is open unless Hamas or other terrorist organizations from Gaza attack Egyptian border security checkpoint in Sinai.

RanDomino: Yep, the blockade is all Hamas's doing. Israel has no power. They're just responding. Israel is forced to do this, forced I say.

The blockade is a result of what Hamas are doing. How do you fail to grasp this is beyond me.

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Oh good. A bunch of people who think a magic sky man gave them a chunk of desert in the middle of someone else's property

Well, technically the land was apportioned out of a World War to provide a culture a 'safe haven', and it was carved out of the territory in contention during that conflict. Spoils of War and all that. World Wars tend to shift borders.

RanDomino: Israel is choosing to enforce the blockade.

Because of what Hamas are doing. Do you have brain damage or something ?

RanDomino: but what you're saying is "Why do you make me have to hit you?"

Yes because Israel is forcing Hamas to declare war on Israel and bomb israeli cities. Which they did when Israel left Gaza and gave an opportunity to Hamas and the palestinians to demonstrate to the world how well they behave now that there is no occupation. It was their choice to declare war on Israel, their choice to move their rocket launchers closer to the border for better aim on israeli cities, their choice to declare 'jihad' on Israel, their choice to openly declare that they refuse to accept the existence of Israel. Their choice to fire an anti-tank missile on an israeli patrol on the israeli side of the border, Are you sensing a theme here ?

Why are you treating the palestinians like retarded children with no responsibility for their own actions ? do you even understand that the palestinians are responsible for what they are doing ? or are you so fixated on your "it's all Israel's fault!" that you choose to ignore this ?

Now if you excuse me, the palestinians just chose to indiscriminately bomb civilians in my city ,the alarm is sounding outside.

RanDomino: TappingTheVein
The blockade is a result of what Hamas are doing.

Israel is choosing to enforce the blockade. Say it's a response to Hamas if you like, but what you're saying is "Why do you make me have to hit you?"

Which is true, admittedly.

Ceasefires don't work, talks don't work. Every diplomat who can be forced to issue a statement says the two will never resolve because they have differing strategic goals (and when one side will only accept the complete obliteration of the other side as their long term goal, you're already coming from a hard place), so those involved and the world should focus on improving security and stability. Thus, a blockade, to ensure that less munitions make it into the region. Thus attacks aimed at both munition stockpiles and leaders who encourage attacks.

Since the only option Israel has at this point is capitulation (they all kill themselves, or subject themselves to murder - as a race, total genocide) or violence, each time Palestine provokes them, they are making Israel 'hit them'. There's a lot of people in the world who are asking the Palestinians: Why do you keep making Israel hit you?

Tatsuma:
America does not allow freedom of movement of Mexicans in Israel. APARTHEID


Having traveled to Israel in 2006 from the United States accompanied by my then fiancee/now wife who is a born-in-Mexico Mexican and who used her United States-issued green card alongside her Mexico-issued passport, I can personally refute your statement here. We had not one single problem going to, within or returning from Israel to the US.

It is important to understand one simple point: there is no moral symmetry between the terrorists in Gaza and Israel.

Hamas are committing double war crimes: they fire at Israeli civilians and hide behind Palestinian civilians

RanDomino: How it's possible to say that the blockade is not an Israeli action is beyond me.


ISO15693
Hamas are committing double war crimes: they fire at Israeli civilians and hide behind Palestinian civilians

Of course- if the IDF kills civilians, it must be because there were terrorists hiding behind them. If you break a few eggs, it's an omelet!

Here is a picture for you, since the words were too complicated, apparently.

RanDomino: srael chooses to enforce the blockade, not Hamas. Give whatever justification you like for it.

BECAUSE of what Hamas are doing. What the hell is wrong with you ?

RanDomino: Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace?

It has succeeded in stopping the violence from the palestinian terrorists, Israeli cities are bombed, this is unacceptable. Sending bouquets of flowers to Hamas so far failed in stopping the jihadists.
Blowing them up did.

RanDomino: Doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again is either insanity, or an indication of an ulterior motive

Since it seemed to work last time in Cast Lead, i will have to conclude that again you have no farking clue what the hell you're talking about.

RanDomino: If Israel wants peace, its actions have been nonsensical. If the goal is to create the pretext for a land grab in the West Bank, the actions make perfect sense.

If the Palestinians want peace they should accept the fact that Israel exists and is going to exist and bombing israeli cities is not a constructive way of establishing peace.
Sure land grab, just like handing Gaza to the palestinians and giving up 92% of the West Bank in a proposed agreement (which the palestinians refused to accept). You sure know what you're talking about.

RanDomino: How it's possible to say that the blockade is not an Israeli action is beyond me.

It is you moron. Because of the palestinians actions, you know: the ones you keep ignoring.

RanDomino: TappingTheVein
Because of what Hamas are doing. Do you have brain damage or something ?

Israel chooses to enforce the blockade, not Hamas. Give whatever justification you like for it.

Why are you treating the palestinians like retarded children with no responsibility for their own actions ?

Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace? Doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again is either insanity, or an indication of an ulterior motive. If Israel wants peace, its actions have been nonsensical. If the goal is to create the pretext for a land grab in the West Bank, the actions make perfect sense.

well said.

the solution is simple.

the rogue state of "israel" should not exist.

it was a mistake from it's illegal conception.

-one day soon...it will implode from its own greed.

and the world will be better off.

Jost: Tatsuma:
America does not allow freedom of movement of Mexicans in Israel. APARTHEID


Having traveled to Israel in 2006 from the United States accompanied by my then fiancee/now wife who is a born-in-Mexico Mexican and who used her United States-issued green card alongside her Mexico-issued passport, I can personally refute your statement here. We had not one single problem going to, within or returning from Israel to the US.

[notsureifsrs.jpg]

RanDomino: Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace?

Exercise for the reader: Of the two regions of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, Israel pulled out of the ____ _____. Since then, of the two, the vast majority of the rockets and mortars have been fired from the ____ _____ side at Israeli c______ns (achieving absolutely nothing for the Palestinian c______ns) -- thus cementing in the minds of Israelis that the _____ organization can [not|indeed] be worked with for the mutual security and of all.

Hmm, let's see... ways that do succeed at bringing peace... oh, I know: Israel should negotiate with an organization who still refuses (and has repeatedly sworn that they will never budge on refusing) to recognize any right of Israel to exist. Brilliant!

/I still think that Israel should pull out of most of the West Bank as well (forcibly removing, if necessary, settlements by radical settlers, as was done in Gaza), but to pretend that Israel has easy options at this point is idiotic.

BigNumber12: Isildur: Jost: Tatsuma:
America does not allow freedom of movement of Mexicans in Israel. APARTHEID


Having traveled to Israel in 2006 from the United States accompanied by my then fiancee/now wife who is a born-in-Mexico Mexican and who used her United States-issued green card alongside her Mexico-issued passport, I can personally refute your statement here. We had not one single problem going to, within or returning from Israel to the US.

[notsureifsrs.jpg]

It's a joke.

Yeah, I thought it may be, but it can be hard to tell deadpan from derp around here, sometimes.

Bauer: RanDomino: TappingTheVein
Because of what Hamas are doing. Do you have brain damage or something ?

Israel chooses to enforce the blockade, not Hamas. Give whatever justification you like for it.

Why are you treating the palestinians like retarded children with no responsibility for their own actions ?

Why are you trying to say Israel has no choice but to respond in ways that have not succeeded in bringing peace? Doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again is either insanity, or an indication of an ulterior motive. If Israel wants peace, its actions have been nonsensical. If the goal is to create the pretext for a land grab in the West Bank, the actions make perfect sense.

well said.

Can I have a citation for that chart?

RanDomino: The problem is that Israelis seem to think safety can come only from a totally dominant position, rather than treating their neighbors respectfully as equals.

A ridiculously vague statement, in terms of what it actually means regarding how to actually deal with attacks.

Explain what your ideal Israel would do tomorrow, if you were suddenly elected its president. Then please explain in detail what the actual repercussions would be, in the real world. (All while bearing in mind that Hamas is not the African National Congress under Mandela or the Indian National Congress under Ghandi.) 3... 2... 1... aaaaaand go:

Isildur: Can I have a citation for that chart?

The URL leads to wikipedia. It's used on the wiki page, "List of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2008", and appears to be an editor's contribution based on the compilation of the data in that article. Most of the data is sourced from jta.org as well as other news organizations.

I have a graph too! 

You might notice that the bars get bigger, the more to the right of the graph they are.

Refute THAT.

Langdon_777: I would unify the country into a new state called Palestine and then arrest any violent criminals - seems easy. Only probs is the Israeli's would only be half the population come election day and just maybe they wouldn't be able to keep control of the democracy.

Lol, "seems easy". Ok, so you're not even willing to be serious, since there would be nothing "easy" about getting all of Hamas's military/terrorism wing to come quietly -- and that's what you would need to do if you want to avoid massacres of Jews in this new Arab-majority state, akin to what happened in 1941 Baghdad (about 175 Jews killed) or the pogrom in Tripoli after the Allied recaptured Libya, in which more than 140 Jews were killed.

Alternatively, if you are serious but are simply ok with such consequences, there's nothing that can productively be argued with you.

RanDomino: Isildur
Explain what your ideal Israel would do tomorrow, if you were suddenly elected its president.

Withdraw most of the illegal settlements from the West Bank (except for the most established ones with large populations near the green line) and stop construction of new ones, end the blockade of Gaza, withdraw all IDF forces from the West Bank and let the PA have full control over the Jordan River, etc.

Then please explain in detail what the actual repercussions would be, in the real world.

A coup by far-right Zionists.


Right, so ending the Gaza blockade would result in Hamas stopping all attacks and ending their sworn policy of fighting Israel, and wouldn't result in Hamas simply using the freer access to resupply for a massive campaign of attacks. That's BS, and you know it.

RanDomino: Isildur
Right, so ending the Gaza blockade would result in Hamas stopping all attacks and ending their sworn policy of fighting Israel, and wouldn't result in Hamas simply using the freer access to resupply for a massive campaign of attacks. That's BS, and you know it.

Eventually. Maybe after a few months. What's Israel got to lose? It's not like they've managed to stop the rockets the old fashioned way.

What it has to lose is exactly the part of my point that you're ignoring -- that Hamas attacks would intensify, not abate.