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(New Europe)   Greek finance minister says Greece will face bankruptcy if the next aid installment is denied   (neurope.eu) divider line 46
    More: Scary, Greek, Greece, aid installment, Jean-Claude Juncker, Council of Europe, labour market, Christine Lagarde, bankruptcy  
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753 clicks; posted to Business » on 14 Nov 2012 at 1:05 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



46 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-14 12:34:23 PM  
If only there were some colorful expression that could be used to describe this...
 
2012-11-14 01:11:21 PM  

PhiloeBedoe: If only there were some colorful expression that could be used to describe this...


"OH shiat"???
 
2012-11-14 01:20:53 PM  
Good. Rip that band-aid off and let the healing begin.
 
2012-11-14 01:22:05 PM  
So Greece is moving down the line from vague threats to "yo, man, I just need one more hit... come on, man, I'll wash your car, I'll suck your d***".
 
2012-11-14 01:37:06 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: So Greece is moving down the line from vague threats to "yo, man, I just need one more hit... come on, man, I'll wash your car, I'll suck your d***".


Pretty much what I was thinking.

/Jesus, they're turning welfare into an art form.
 
2012-11-14 01:42:17 PM  
Yeah, the national sport is tax avoidance and expectation of benefits. I wonder how they got into such a mess.
 
2012-11-14 02:04:38 PM  
Oh man, haven't heard that one before.

I'm sure this is the last time.

Just get this shiat over with.
 
2012-11-14 02:17:09 PM  
Cut them lose. The damage from letting this bleed on will be much longer lasting.
 
2012-11-14 02:35:50 PM  

Rent Party: Cut them lose. The damage from letting this bleed on will be much longer lasting.


If they are cut lose, what will other nations want to do? I speak of Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy.
 
2012-11-14 02:38:49 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Rent Party: Cut them lose. The damage from letting this bleed on will be much longer lasting.

If they are cut lose, what will other nations want to do? I speak of Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy.


They will stick around. They have significant GDPs to protect, particularly Italy and Spain, and the Eurozone helps them more than it hurts them.

The Greeks cooked their books to get in. They should be ejected from the Eurozone for that alone.
 
2012-11-14 02:47:46 PM  
If only there was an untapped source of tax revenue they could look into collecting...
 
2012-11-14 03:06:12 PM  

Coach_J: If only there was an untapped source of tax revenue they could look into collecting...


They cant have much income to tax. After all, whats a greecian earn?
 
2012-11-14 03:12:15 PM  
Jesus Christ, just forgive them of their debts and move on. That's how civilization USED to operate in such circumstances...
 
2012-11-14 03:14:23 PM  
Greece has been facing bankruptcy for quite some time, now. It's a matter of when, not if.

/just like us.
 
2012-11-14 03:14:42 PM  

Nadie_AZ: Rent Party: Cut them lose. The damage from letting this bleed on will be much longer lasting.

If they are cut lose, what will other nations want to do? I speak of Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy.


Depends. If the banks are as to blame for their situations as they are for Greece, then have at. Will it hurt the banks? Sure. F*ck 'em if it's their fault anyway. The popular idea that the citizens of a nation are responsible/in control of its economic standing is naive to the extreme. The system just doesn't work that way.
 
2012-11-14 03:16:12 PM  

DrPainMD: Greece has been facing bankruptcy for quite some time, now. It's a matter of when, not if.

/just like us.


We won't. Because if we do, everybody does. It won't be allowed to happen because it would benefit nobody.
 
2012-11-14 03:17:57 PM  

Rent Party: The Greeks cooked their books to get in. They should be ejected from the Eurozone for that alone.


Which Greeks? I don't think this went down the way you think it did.
 
2012-11-14 03:30:05 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Rent Party: The Greeks cooked their books to get in. They should be ejected from the Eurozone for that alone.

Which Greeks? I don't think this went down the way you think it did.


The Greeks running the Greek Finance Ministry, which grossly under reported it's debt ratios to Eurostat in order to gain entry into the Eurozone.

You can read all about it.
 
2012-11-14 03:30:29 PM  
Austerity is working wonders over there! Have another Molotov cocktail you fascists.
 
2012-11-14 03:36:42 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Jesus Christ, just forgive them of their debts and move on.


and how many times are they going to have to do that?
There needs to be an indication of a strong ideological and personal change (or pursuit thereof) towards greater responsibility and constraint of their respective businesses and capital-influential institutions on behalf of the citizenry before this would be a possibility.
 
2012-11-14 03:37:45 PM  

FarkedOver: Austerity is working wonders over there! Have another Molotov cocktail you fascists.


They could simply vote for a politician that would let them go bankrupt if they prefer that option.
 
2012-11-14 03:49:37 PM  

tomcatadam: FarkedOver: Austerity is working wonders over there! Have another Molotov cocktail you fascists.

They could simply vote for a politician that would let them go bankrupt if they prefer that option.


Nah, they need a leftist revolution. They need to stamp out Golden Dawn in the process.
 
2012-11-14 03:53:29 PM  
The rest of the Eurozone doesn't want Greece to collapse. For some stupid reason, a lot of the big European banks have heavily invested in Greek bonds, and if they declare bankruptcy, those bonds' worth drops to zero, forcing the CDS on the bonds to come due immediately (now where have we heard this before?). That's why France and Germany are so eager to keep sending money to Greece; the alternative means their banks become insolvent...
 
2012-11-14 03:59:59 PM  

Coach_J: If only there was an untapped source of tax revenue they could look into collecting...


Maybe if they tax the top 1%.
How about a carbon tax ?
Increase the Capital gains Tax !
New user fee's ?

Or they could cut their spending and entitlements.

Follow America's lead Greece.

/ maybe not .
 
2012-11-14 04:38:33 PM  
Thing is as soon as people stop giving them money they are going to go bankrupt.
 
2012-11-14 04:51:45 PM  
That's what happens when you throw money at the problem instead of fixing the problem.
 
2012-11-14 05:03:22 PM  

RedVentrue: That's what happens when you throw money at the problem instead of fixing the problem.


Fixing the problem requires enough money to last through the crisis and to gett the Greek economy back on track.

Letting Greece go bankrupt is going to require a lot of countries throwing a lot more money at a lot of banks, cascading the debt crisis throughout Europe.

It's like they say: If I owe you a billion euro, I have a problem. If I owe you a few hundred billion euro, you have a problem.
 
2012-11-14 05:27:46 PM  
can't their debt just be forgiven? let them start over. ffs. you don't let the world burn because of a balance sheet.
 
2012-11-14 05:48:00 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Jesus Christ, just forgive them of their debts and move on. That's how civilization USED to operate in such circumstances...


That is until civilization woke the fark up and realized that giving free money to deadbeats only causes them to stick around and ask for more. Fark them.
 
2012-11-14 06:05:04 PM  
Problem with all this is Greece won't recover. Seriously it won't. They've reached the point where a total collapse is required to rebuild. They're sitting right on the edge now and the loans just prolong what is going to eventually happen, no matter how much the other Euro countries are going to hurt for it.

They're at 25% unemployment. It's going up. There's no real industry base in the entire country, it was mostly government and tourist based. They produce nothing, consume much and it is going to fail. Postponing it just means tossing good money after bad like some drunken gambler thinking if he just bets on the next die roll he'll make back his losses and retire in wealth.
 
2012-11-14 06:09:35 PM  

SuperT: can't their debt just be forgiven? let them start over. ffs. you don't let the world burn because of a balance sheet.


The world has become a balance sheet.

Government is owned by business. We are owned by all and given what we are estimated to require to avoid revolt.

Or so it seems to me more and more these days.
 
2012-11-14 06:16:40 PM  
"They're dying Jim."

"Let them die."
 
2012-11-14 06:42:36 PM  
Heh.
Ya think?
 
2012-11-14 06:45:37 PM  
whats a greecian earn?

about a liter of olive oil, but enough about that
 
2012-11-14 06:46:30 PM  
I think it's hilarious that ANYBODY thinks loans to a broke country are going to help.

If one of my friends says, "HEY! I'm in debt up to my eyes and ready to go bankrupt!"
The first thing that comes to mind isn't that lending him more money will help him.

OTOH, it you're a bank looking to LOOT pick up the liquidated assets of an entire nation for nearly nothing, Greece looks really good as a sheep to shear lending prospect.
 
2012-11-14 07:10:33 PM  

nimbers: RedVentrue: That's what happens when you throw money at the problem instead of fixing the problem.

Fixing the problem requires enough money to last through the crisis and to gett the Greek economy back on track.

Letting Greece go bankrupt is going to require a lot of countries throwing a lot more money at a lot of banks, cascading the debt crisis throughout Europe.

It's like they say: If I owe you a billion euro, I have a problem. If I owe you a few hundred billion euro, you have a problem.


Right, but they just stuff their pockets and ask for more. They need new people who will put that money to work.
 
2012-11-14 07:16:20 PM  

xaldin: Problem with all this is Greece won't recover. Seriously it won't. They've reached the point where a total collapse is required to rebuild. They're sitting right on the edge now and the loans just prolong what is going to eventually happen, no matter how much the other Euro countries are going to hurt for it.

They're at 25% unemployment. It's going up. There's no real industry base in the entire country, it was mostly government and tourist based. They produce nothing, consume much and it is going to fail. Postponing it just means tossing good money after bad like some drunken gambler thinking if he just bets on the next die roll he'll make back his losses and retire in wealth.


That sounds familiar.
 
2012-11-14 07:19:19 PM  

inclemency: SuperT: can't their debt just be forgiven? let them start over. ffs. you don't let the world burn because of a balance sheet.

The world has become a balance sheet.

Government is owned by business. We are owned by all and given what we are estimated to require to avoid revolt.

Or so it seems to me more and more these days.


Naw. People are free. They just don't realize it.
Most people don't know they're free.
 
2012-11-14 07:19:20 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Jesus Christ, just forgive them of their debts and move on. That's how civilization USED to operate in such circumstances...


I thought the way things used to be handled was you defaulted on your debts and the debtor country sent gunboats or an invading army.
 
2012-11-14 07:20:48 PM  
the Greeks wouldn't have as much of a deficit problem if they paid their taxes properly. Two years later, they are still refusing, by and large, to do so. Cut them loose.

Italy wouldn't have a deficit problem at all if the country collected taxes properly, for that matter. But Italy is far too big to fail.

hopefully the ECB has been successful in building firewalls around Greece, to prevent a collapse there from spreading to Spain, Italy, Ireland and Portugal.
 
2012-11-14 07:24:20 PM  

Bendal: The rest of the Eurozone doesn't want Greece to collapse. For some stupid reason, a lot of the big European banks have heavily invested in Greek bonds, and if they declare bankruptcy, those bonds' worth drops to zero, forcing the CDS on the bonds to come due immediately (now where have we heard this before?). That's why France and Germany are so eager to keep sending money to Greece; the alternative means their banks become insolvent...


bank exposure is a non-issue.

the banks already took 75% haircuts on their investments as part of the debt negotiations earlier this year, and the CDS triggered.

if Greece defaults, the ECB and IMF will bear the brunt of the losses.
 
2012-11-14 07:26:08 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Jesus Christ, just forgive them of their debts and move on. That's how civilization USED to operate in such circumstances...


Problem: even if the debt is wiped to zero, they still spend more than they take in... and only a moron is going to loan them squat without incredibly high interest rates, which just starts the whole thing again.
 
2012-11-14 08:25:17 PM  

dumbobruni: the Greeks wouldn't have as much of a deficit problem if they paid their taxes properly. Two years later, they are still refusing, by and large, to do so. Cut them loose.


It's worse than that -- their government is extremely corrupt. You get the feeling people would be more willing to pay taxes if it wasn't lining some bureaucrat's pockets.

The only way they could be "cut loose" is if they're cut out of the Euro.
 
2012-11-14 09:30:33 PM  

avanti: Yeah, the national sport is tax avoidance and expectation of benefits. I wonder how they got into such a mess.


Okay I was wondering about this. My understanding is that virtually nobody pays taxes and the black market (mob activity?) is huge. So how did they have any economy in the first place, and how did it go in the shiatter?

I feel like I had a good grasp of this when the financial crisis first started, then with all of the extra shiat going on I just lost track of everything
 
2012-11-15 07:20:01 AM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: DrPainMD: Greece has been facing bankruptcy for quite some time, now. It's a matter of when, not if.

/just like us.

We won't. Because if we do, everybody does. It won't be allowed to happen because it would benefit nobody.


It doesn't have to be "allowed to happen." When it comes, it won't be a matter of choice. We can't continue to borrow our prosperity forever. When the lenders stop lending (and that's already happened several times [any time that you hear that the FED purchased bonds in a T-bond auction, it's because there were no buyers]) the only way to continue will be to create new money to buy the debt, indefinitely. And that will be the beginning of the end.
 
2012-11-15 10:53:18 AM  

pivazena: avanti: Yeah, the national sport is tax avoidance and expectation of benefits. I wonder how they got into such a mess.

Okay I was wondering about this. My understanding is that virtually nobody pays taxes and the black market (mob activity?) is huge. So how did they have any economy in the first place, and how did it go in the shiatter?

I feel like I had a good grasp of this when the financial crisis first started, then with all of the extra shiat going on I just lost track of everything


Imagine Enron, but an entire country.
 
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