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(SeattlePI)   Victoria's Secret apologizes for Native American headdress, since models walking down the catwalk in a leopard print thong is the first place you'd expect to find cultural sensitivity   (seattlepi.com) divider line 109
    More: Stupid, Victoria's Secret, leopard print, cultural sensitivity, headdress  
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4908 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2012 at 2:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-13 03:42:31 PM
www.electriqueboutique.com
 
2012-11-13 03:42:52 PM
smackledorfer: " I'm not saying you wouldn't, but I'm asking you to explain to me why a culture having gone through some shiat makes any reference to it completely off limits?"

It doesn't make it "off limits". It makes it understandable when they get sensitive.
That is: I'm not saying "Victoria's Secret should not have done that". I'm saying "I understand why the tribes wrote the letter."

Just as people are within their rights to say "fark it, we're going with a sexy native american thing." The tribes are within their rights to say "that's kind of a dick move".
And having the right to make a sexy native american outfit does not protect one from criticism of it being tacky, tasteless, offensive, unsexy, etc.

I just don't see a villain here; no-one's calling for legal suppression of anyone else's freedom of expression.
There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?
 
2012-11-13 03:44:55 PM

theMightyRegeya: Debeo Summa Credo: LordJiro: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I thought it was a tribute to Massachusetts new Senator Elizabeth 'same amount of Cherokee blood as the current chief of the Cherokee nation' Warren.

Which makes one wonder whether the concept of "Cherokee nation" is necessary. Can't they find anyone competent who has more than 2% Cherokee blood? Why the fark do should we take the organization seriously if they're going to hire a guy who'se 98% non-native to run the thing.

Yeah, I don't get it. You go to NC, you'll find people wearing these same stupid plains Indians headdresses, and you'll see business owners who are incredibly white, yet have nice official paperwork declaring them to be members of the tribe.

Hell, if they'd kept better records back in the day, I'd be more Cherokee than Elizabeth Warren. The icing on the cake is that I'm a pasty redhead.

I understand some people being upset by this, though. Some tribes tend to take these things pretty seriously.


Because verifying (or denying) tribal membership is a situation where there's a lot of money on the line.

Same reason they kicked out all the "black" people from the tribe. (Slave-descended, in most cases had intermarried with the natives.)
 
2012-11-13 03:45:51 PM
3.bp.blogspot.com
ah, Churchill.
 
2012-11-13 03:46:18 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: LordJiro: Dr.Mxyzptlk.: I thought it was a tribute to Massachusetts new Senator Elizabeth 'same amount of Cherokee blood as the current chief of the Cherokee nation' Warren.

Which makes one wonder whether the concept of "Cherokee nation" is necessary. Can't they find anyone competent who has more than 2% Cherokee blood? Why the fark do should we take the organization seriously if they're going to hire a guy who'se 98% non-native to run the thing.


There's more to a culture than blood.

/especially since the "blood" part is a fairly archaic concept.
 
2012-11-13 03:47:06 PM

dv-ous: Same reason they kicked out all the "black" people from the tribe. (Slave-descended, in most cases had intermarried with the natives.)


I know lots of "black" (not sure why we are putting it in quotes) that are members of the Pequot tribe.
 
2012-11-13 03:52:05 PM
They have the best catalogs in the history of mankind. That is all.
 
2012-11-13 03:53:26 PM

Smackledorfer: I don't understand why anyone gets annoyed at mere clothing. It isn't like we've got a blackface play going on here.

What is different between this and a sexy version of any other traditional outfit? Should I be throwing a shiatfit if a sexy lederhosen outfit was on the runway?

Outfits, without additional context, shouldn't be considered offensive unless the original outfit itself was offensive. So a KKK robe obviously would have context on its own, but a chief's headdress? meh.


Farking please. Faux outrage is the newest PR trick.
 
2012-11-13 03:53:31 PM

ringersol: :
There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?


head over to the Politics tab, pick a thread, throw that statement on the wall, see if it gets any
support
 
2012-11-13 03:53:45 PM

ringersol: smackledorfer: " I'm not saying you wouldn't, but I'm asking you to explain to me why a culture having gone through some shiat makes any reference to it completely off limits?"

It doesn't make it "off limits". It makes it understandable when they get sensitive.
That is: I'm not saying "Victoria's Secret should not have done that". I'm saying "I understand why the tribes wrote the letter."

Just as people are within their rights to say "fark it, we're going with a sexy native american thing." The tribes are within their rights to say "that's kind of a dick move".
And having the right to make a sexy native american outfit does not protect one from criticism of it being tacky, tasteless, offensive, unsexy, etc.

I just don't see a villain here; no-one's calling for legal suppression of anyone else's freedom of expression.
There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?


Ok but then why is attempted genocide a factor?

Because that is the crux of the issue to me.
 
2012-11-13 03:56:39 PM

Zeb Hesselgresser: ringersol: :
There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?

head over to the Politics tab, pick a thread, throw that statement on the wall, see if it gets any
support


Why would you suggest that anyone go over there. You're a cruel, cruel person.
 
2012-11-13 03:57:27 PM

fireclown: BattleAxe: // Village People - OK and unoffensive since the 70s.
/// Because Disco?

I have no earthly idea how they were embraced by the mainstream. It was like some kind of magical, cocaine fueled series of crits.


It's the Evil Dead II theory of camp. If you turn something to 11, it can stop being offensive, because the entire concept has become so ludicrous it defies serious analysis. You're into the uncanny valley.
 
2012-11-13 03:57:29 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-13 03:58:48 PM

imtheonlylp: geez.

model can haz cheezburger? or three?


This.

/ribs best with BBQ sauce
 
2012-11-13 03:59:41 PM

KatjaMouse: Artist: C'mon, someone had better be posting Cher pictures hereabouts! Along with her hit song 'n lyrics "Half breed" Yipee! Bring on the kitschy 70s!

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 300x300]


stickerish.com
 
2012-11-13 04:00:55 PM
de.acidcow.com
 
2012-11-13 04:01:30 PM
So "cultural sensitivity" is defined as U.S. citizens with a Western European heritage using a piece of another culture, followed by self-flagellation and pushing our fingers into the other cultures' chest and saying, "Hey...you are REQUIRED to be offended!"
 
2012-11-13 04:02:46 PM
Come to think of it didn't Victoria Secrets have a problem a month back with some" Asian girls" outfit.
Somebody ruined it with the whole sex slave during the war thing.

I would Google it but the kids use the computer . Asian,sex,slave..on the search engine.
 
2012-11-13 04:03:11 PM

Godscrack: [userserve-ak.last.fm image 450x600]

Ted Nugent thinks he's an Indian.


Sometimes Ted Nugent has thought he was a fire truck. I blame the drugs.
 
2012-11-13 04:03:23 PM

DaCaptain19: So "cultural sensitivity" is defined as U.S. citizens with a Western European heritage using a piece of another culture, followed by self-flagellation and pushing our fingers into the other cultures' chest and saying, "Hey...you are REQUIRED to be offended!"


yeah. More or less. If it makes the other cultures feel any better, we aren't enjoying it either. It's just a stupid thing that we can't seem to stop doing.
 
2012-11-13 04:05:00 PM
i46.tinypic.com

non-offensive headdress
 
2012-11-13 04:09:50 PM

insano: Nobody say a thing. Just post pictures and leave.


Doninone.
 
2012-11-13 04:16:26 PM
You know, why don't they do one of those historically accurate outfits from ancient Egypt, you know, where the top of the dress ended right before the breasts started?
 
2012-11-13 04:22:52 PM
smackledorfer: "Ok but then why is attempted genocide a factor?"

The historical context is what makes the complaint understandable.
Absent that -- if it was, say, a bunch of rich old white guys complaining that yet another Hollywood villain is a rich old white guy?
That would just be indefensible butthurt.
 
2012-11-13 04:25:32 PM
Zeb Hesselgresser: "head over to the Politics tab, pick a thread, throw that statement on the wall, see if it gets any support"

The Politics tab can't agree on the the obvious shiat: sky being blue, water being wet, pot sex and beer being good
Why would I think they could handle a 200-level course in freedom of speech?
 
2012-11-13 04:26:43 PM

FunkOut: You know, why don't they do one of those historically accurate outfits from ancient Egypt, you know, where the top of the dress ended right before the breasts started?


I love the Egyptian style, especially the Pharaoh garb.

pic3.qguide.com

pablochester.typepad.com

a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-13 04:29:46 PM
My wife is Ojibwe and this recently came up in discussion. The truth is most (at least here in canada) natives are losing or have lost their culture for a number of reasons. Residential schools comes to mind, seriously, if you can talk to someone who was in one it will give you an idea of what really was happening. Its a truly heartbreaking thing. As for the whole outrage thing, as I understand it some are seeing it as just more white washing of their history/culture and more smoke obscuring its true meaning and significance.
 
2012-11-13 04:32:12 PM

ringersol: smackledorfer: "Ok but then why is attempted genocide a factor?"

The historical context is what makes the complaint understandable.
Absent that -- if it was, say, a bunch of rich old white guys complaining that yet another Hollywood villain is a rich old white guy?
That would just be indefensible butthurt.


I refer you to your earlier point:

ringersol: There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?



Eh, I guess I just won't get it. Or your point is purely emotional and that is why you are having so much difficulty explaining a good rule set for when it is justified to biatch about a sexy cultural outfit and when it isn't. I usually find if I can't explain my thoughts on an issue, I need to spend more time on them or admit I don't have a well thought out conclusion.
 
2012-11-13 04:36:39 PM
"When you see a Lakota chief wearing a full headdress, you know that he was a very honorable man. He was a leader. He did a lot of honorable things for his people," said Michelle Spotted Elk, a Santa Cruz, Calif., woman of mixed heritage whose husband is Lakota. "It also has religious significance. With them, there's not a division between spirituality and their leadership."

Well, now we know how easy this chick was for her husband to pick up.

"Yeah, baby, the feathers are... deeply spiritual, and signify much honor to my... um... honor as a... leader. Yeah, that's it."

//I'm pretty sure it's just this one woman and not the Lakota in general that have a giant stick up their ass. There are traditional dances with feather headdresses on the equivalent of strippers, dude, the first nations' traditions weren't any more srs bzns on average than ours are.
 
2012-11-13 04:44:27 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Zeb Hesselgresser: ringersol: :
There's just two groups disagreeing. Why does one of them have to be wrong?

head over to the Politics tab, pick a thread, throw that statement on the wall, see if it gets any
support

Why would you suggest that anyone go over there. You're a cruel, cruel person.


Telemarketing endurance exercises.
 
2012-11-13 04:52:11 PM

cyanide64: My wife is Ojibwe and this recently came up in discussion. The truth is most (at least here in canada) natives are losing or have lost their culture for a number of reasons. Residential schools comes to mind, seriously, if you can talk to someone who was in one it will give you an idea of what really was happening. Its a truly heartbreaking thing. As for the whole outrage thing, as I understand it some are seeing it as just more white washing of their history/culture and more smoke obscuring its true meaning and significance.


I've got a number of friends who are native (Pima, Navaho, Cherokee, Occaneechi, Lumbee, among others) and the history will give you a roaring case of white guilt faster than anything I've encountered. Those people got farked.

Most seem determined to hold on to what's left, though. The American Indian Center here on campus does a brisk business in providing services and support for native students, and the local tribes hold well-publicized gatherings every year. Fortunately, I don't think they are going to fade away.
 
2012-11-13 05:15:16 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i46.tinypic.com image 400x774]

non-offensive headdress


I'm sorry but...I deserve an apology for that. I mean, whiskey tango foxtrot!
 
2012-11-13 05:21:57 PM

FunkOut: Godscrack: [userserve-ak.last.fm image 450x600]

Ted Nugent thinks he's an Indian.

Sometimes Ted Nugent has thought he was a fire truck. I blame the drugs.


Then stop taking drugs!
 
2012-11-13 05:22:10 PM
Quick firestormy math question: If your ancestors came over on the Nina, how many more generations of your family do you have to produce in America to have your descendents be called "native"?
 
2012-11-13 05:22:17 PM
I wonder if there's anybody offended at Native Amerinds wearing white folk's clothing/ How about Asian clothing? Why don't we all just go back to wearing clothing that is strictly defined as from our own heritage? For the Indians this would mean that they would have to rely on furs, skins, feathers, everything pre-European contact. Asians would have their rich variety of styles and fabrics. Whites would have everything else. THEN EVERYBODY WOULD BE HAPPY!!!
 
2012-11-13 05:28:51 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: [i46.tinypic.com image 400x774]

non-offensive headdress


truly, funny and clever. You may have my little sister.
 
2012-11-13 05:31:11 PM

insano: Nobody say a thing. Just post pictures and leave.


The plural is "leaves", but I'm having trouble finding pics of their leaves.
 
2012-11-13 05:36:34 PM

Gunny Highway: There is no doubt she is a tribe member


Uh...
 
2012-11-13 05:37:18 PM

Debeo Summa Credo: Which makes one wonder whether the concept of "Cherokee nation" is necessary.


I hear that Paul Revere is so proud they lived.
 
2012-11-13 05:44:57 PM
Hypersensitive much? It's not like they stuck a cross upside down in a cup of piss.
That was art and this is not?
 
2012-11-13 05:47:31 PM

BattleAxe: Quick firestormy math question: If your ancestors came over on the Nina, how many more generations of your family do you have to produce in America to have your descendents be called "native"?


If your descendants did not wipe out the Clovis culture, you apparently don't qualify.
If you are a member of the Clovis culture, hide, because there's a bunch of Native Americans that won't let you take back your continent.
 
2012-11-13 05:53:14 PM

theMightyRegeya: Gunny Highway: There is no doubt she is a tribe member

Uh...


emmmm.....
 
2012-11-13 05:54:32 PM
I get the feeling that the problem is that in all sorts of minority groups there are a tiny number of professionally butthurt people, and the media love to show those people, rather than a lot of people who are just happy to be getting on with their life, and couldn't give a shiat.

And the problem is, it actually damages the sensible members of minority groups. No-one in the UK reports about muslims that go and write computer code, who are basically just normal, non-crazy guys who write software (other than the lack of drinking and praying during the day). They report on the attention whores who decide to have a an anti-war parade in the town that does the repatriations.
 
2012-11-13 05:57:26 PM

OldManDownDRoad: I've got a number of friends who are native (Pima, Navaho, Cherokee, Occaneechi, Lumbee, among others) and the history will give you a roaring case of white guilt faster than anything I've encountered. Those people got farked.


Yup...It was really cool when American Indians slaughtered and enslaved other American Indians...But once a white man does it..whoooo boy...You better feel guilty about it.
 
2012-11-13 05:57:40 PM
CSB
I am Lakota. (Big Crow)
I have personally been involved with issues of our (Lakota, because the Navajo and the Cherokee have fark-all to do with me) various tribes dealing with cultural insensitivity. But I swear, 9 out of 10 times it is started by someone being offended for me, rather than being anything I or any other native would give a shiat about.
This is about the dumbest one I have seen.
I hate being told I am supposed to be offended by things like this.
I'll give another example. Sports Teams. IDGAF in general. In some cases Like the Seminoles, why would my opinion, as a member of a totally unrelated tribe, even matter? With Braves, Indians, Chiefs, Warriors they are all so non-specific you would have to be seriously messed-up to see them as an attack. Although, fark the Redskins.
I've been at various gatherings, hearings etc. where my urge to stand up and scream, "fark off! It's not your business!", is only suppressed because if the issue isn't raised by a non-native advocate it would never get any attention.
So, yeah and boobies cross all cultural barriers and if you were looking at her headgear you are gay.
 
2012-11-13 05:59:09 PM
Talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk ...
momomod.com

www.fashionisingpictures.net
 
2012-11-13 06:32:05 PM

ShobuZukuri: [de.acidcow.com image 508x700]


yeah, that's the good stuff right there
 
2012-11-13 07:25:01 PM
"Cultural insensitivity"

Could somebody explain why I should care if something I do (or someone else does) makes someone of another culture upset? Or is it just Zoidberg yelling that I'm a bad person and I should feel bad.
 
2012-11-13 07:30:46 PM
crow202.org
This leopard is offended by the leopard-print thongs. Won't somebody please think of the leopards?

Or the cheetahs?
crow202.org

Or the zebras?
crow202.org
 
2012-11-13 08:25:33 PM
Have you seen that nasty bulimic bag of bones? Come on Victoria Secret is that the best you got? Get that girl a burger for crying out loud.
 
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