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(New Jersey 101.5)   Now that I know exactly what the "fiscal cliff" will cost me personally, I'm suddenly much more interested   (nj1015.com) divider line 170
    More: Interesting, estate taxes, Tax Policy Center  
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12748 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2012 at 10:17 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-13 10:59:09 AM  

smitty04: Amos Quito: I say we impose a 100% tax on everyone and everything, and then create a caring, compassionate government bureaucracy that will fairly distribute to each according to his need.

It's the only reasonable solution.

Soon you have no one working. What would be the point. Forced labor camps would be the only solution, it worked in the USSR.



Well, people need SOME incentive to work.
 
2012-11-13 10:59:20 AM  

Thunderpipes: Prevailing Wind: Upper Middle 20%er here. I'm ok with this. If I wanted to live in a third-world hell hole, I would expatriate. Since I don't, I'm willing to pay what we need to pay in order to keep this collective enterprise we call America on sound financial footing and still providing the protections, services, and opportunities that make this a pretty kick ass place to live.

The surreal degree of hypocrisy exhibited by you conservative aholes who constantly want something (a safe and decent country to live in) for nothing (no taxes) just boggles my farking mind.

Where's your farking bootstraps people?

Successful people already pay almost all the taxes. What you want, is no more successful people. Nothing but envy and dumbassery. How stupid is it of you to imply conservatives don't want to pay any taxes? We just don't want to pay crippling taxes so you and yours get free stuff and sit around.


Did you even READ the article? I just indicated that I am one of the ones who will be experiencing a very significant tax increase., As you apparently define them, I'm a "successful" person. I don't envy anyone...except that young blonde guy from Sons of Anarchy, chick's panties practically dissolve for that guy. Him I envy.

My point is, even still, I don't mind the increase. Its not crippling. It's payment for services rendered. What part of that don't you get? You cannot fight three wars and think that its not going to cost you. Wake up and pay the potato ok?
 
2012-11-13 10:59:22 AM  

dennysgod: Middle 20%, $38 a week. Not much of a cliff, more like an uneven step.


$1.00 per hour, that ain't too bad.
 
2012-11-13 10:59:35 AM  
Not really ok with this but oh well its the way things are.
If I read it right it means about 3/4th of my tax return every year will not be coming back to me.
Does that mean they'll spend the money better.
I am hopeful but somehow I doubt it.
 
2012-11-13 10:59:50 AM  
Once it became clear that the games Congress plays to kick the can down the road aren't more than a band-aid on a seppuku wound, I realized that the only real change we can make (at this point) is moving doomsday. That said, if the country is going to "go down in flames", would I rather we spend the remaining days: 1. letting the ultra-well-compensated hoard Croesus levels of wealth while everything around them crumbles and dies or 2. giving food and aid to those in need. We seem to be very adept at 1.
 
2012-11-13 10:59:52 AM  

Snort: Congress cannot not spend money. There is no reward for not spending money.

For the last 30 years, they have been unteathered from the reality of not spending more than you take in.

They put in all these limits and cliffs in an attempt to discipline themselves and then move them when they get there.

And Ryan is just as bad. He pretends to do something that, in reality, is doing nothing.


Too many people listen to the talking heads and don't stop to think about reality. While the government must be responsible in its spending, it simply must spend. Government spending drives every economy. Capitalist would have us believe that they do, but in reality, they are just chasing money put into the economy by governments. If the US Government were to stop spending tomorrow, our economy would collapse within a month.
 
2012-11-13 11:00:18 AM  
So if anyone tells you this "cliff" is anything more than a "speed bump" they're either lying, misinformed, or a Republican.
 
2012-11-13 11:00:21 AM  
I'm down with Clinton era taxes. I realize that the prospect of paying down the deficit and having an actual productive financially stable Amwrica terrifies the right wing trolls, but it's good, sound, conservative(actual conservative), economics.

I know, I know, you GOP assholes worked really hard in the last 40 years to crank up the deficit so you could jam austerity measures down our throats to forward your fascist, fundamentalist, militarist agenda.
 
2012-11-13 11:01:47 AM  

ausfahrk: So $110K is the top of "upper middle class"? I'd better go wake up the slaves so they can carry me and my solid-gold Lamborghini to the country club.


You got a Lambo WITH slaves? Must have been an option, mine only came with gold inlay and filigree.
 
2012-11-13 11:01:54 AM  
Time for your bath Grover. And thanks for getting us to this point.

i773.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-13 11:02:56 AM  

Znuh: Do it. The Bush tax-cut programs have been proven not to work. I'm very OK with going back to Clinton-era tax rates. The Repubs are again blowing their own weird brand of unreality:

The tax rate under Nixon was 70% for the highest bracket; you did not come under 39% until you made less than $28,000 as a couple or $14,000 individually. Here's some history:

Eisenhower 91%
Kennedy 91%
Johnson 70%
Nixon 70%
Ford 70%
Carter 70%
Reagan 28%
Bush, G.H.W. 31%
Clinton 39.6%
Bush, G.W. 35%

A whopping 4.6% raise. Fark the House for its fear and doom.

/do_it.jpg


That's a big 4.6% FARK YOU and everybody who supports this. I had to file bankruptcy last year (bullshiat reasons stemming from an ex-wife's debt). I don't have an extra 4.6% income anywhere. So to satisfy your own sense of whatever the hell you call your justification of theft I'm going from merely broke to poor. So fark you and my kids who will have to go without would give you a trio of fark you if I'd let them cuss.
 
2012-11-13 11:02:56 AM  

JackieRabbit: Bullshiat. Here we go with a new media hype-blitz. There's no way my tax is going up $14,173 next year.

This is all just political theater, folks. They're gonna strike a back-room deal, the nasty details of which we will not know until it is too late.


It's "and above". So people making $10M+ a year pay an extra $1.4M a year and people making $100K might pay three grand more.

It's pretty easy to know what you're going to pay. Look at what your taxes would have been under the Clinton Administration. That's what you'd pay.
 
2012-11-13 11:03:05 AM  

PunGent: fireclown: I suppose it is now time to throw out my challenge. Any meaningful cuts will have to be significant, and painful. Instead of complaints and snark (our stock in trade, I know), what would we suggest as solutions? I'll start:

- Reduce defense spending by 3% across the board.
- Move the social security tax cap from 100K to 250K
- Allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire
- Decrease the payback rate of SS by 2% for individuals with net worth of over 5M

Solid start.

Legalize and tax marijuana, and we're golden.


Eliminate all federal funds spent for education. That should be a state issue, not a federal one.
 
2012-11-13 11:03:28 AM  
I've said this in a couple of other threads, and it fits here:

If you look at the Beame administration negotiating for assistance for NYC in the 70s, I think you're going to see a similar thread here.

Beame tried negotiating and his opponents found they could screw with him. He tried appeasing them, and knowing he could be messed with, NYC slid into stagnation.

When Ed Koch came along, he knew that this process had to be outright broken in order to escape its clutches - no negotiation, no settling for bad financial tactics. Everything came to a halt. Koch did this to end the city being held hostage.

Now, I don't have to tell you how ugly NYC was in the mid 70s and how everything fell into disrepair. The subways covered in graffiti, all infrastructure decaying; the West Side Highway could have been used in Fallout 3. However, Koch's tactic worked. It destroyed his opponents.

I predict that if the House does not come back with anything but the desire to work, we're going to see this tactic repeated. I can easily see Obama spending his political capital and ceasing any and all negotiations. He's got the support from the Country; all he has to do is point out to how obstructionist the House is being. The Republicans will wear the final red letter of being the bad guys, and while the country goes off the fiscal cliff, be painted firmly as those who have brought this about.

Once this cycle is broken, things will radically improve. NYC jumped back to life. I should know, I lived it.

We don't negotiate with Terrorists. Dangling our futures in front of us is our own fault; we put them in your hands erroneously thinking all the bluster and puff could help us. You've proved that wrong. We voted.

The hardest medicine to take is the one that causes pain while it works. The House has a choice, work with the Country, or face the election in 2014.

/Very OK with going back to Clinton-level taxes
//Your Uber-God Nixon had them up at 70%. Think about that. A Republican with them at 70.
 
2012-11-13 11:05:07 AM  
www.frugal-cafe.com

We are! This is so much fun!

3.bp.blogspot.com

America, 2016

dakiniland.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-13 11:05:15 AM  
That's a big 4.6% FARK YOU and everybody who supports this. I had to file bankruptcy last year (bullshiat reasons stemming from an ex-wife's debt). I don't have an extra 4.6% income anywhere. So to satisfy your own sense of whatever the hell you call your justification of theft I'm going from merely broke to poor. So fark you and my kids who will have to go without would give you a trio of fark you if I'd let them cuss.

You do realize that's an increase for the Rich, and not the middle class, yes?
 
2012-11-13 11:05:52 AM  
richardbrenneman.files.wordpress.com

If only there was somewhere to cut spending to alleviate these tax increases.
 
2012-11-13 11:06:43 AM  
Fark filter dropped Smeggy Smurf's Italicized comments and handle.
 
2012-11-13 11:08:18 AM  

thurstonxhowell: JackieRabbit: Bullshiat. Here we go with a new media hype-blitz. There's no way my tax is going up $14,173 next year.

This is all just political theater, folks. They're gonna strike a back-room deal, the nasty details of which we will not know until it is too late.

The whole point of this information is that it is what happens if they don't strike a deal. They probably will make some kind of deal, but that has exactly zero effect on these numbers.


The media is hyping this for their own profits. They cherry-pick the numbers they want and then misrepresent them in order to sensationalize the issue. Were you to see the CBO's and OMB's projections on the effect of not rolling this idiot law back side-by-side, the numbers would be completely different due to political spins. And in both reports, some of the numbers would be pulled out of their asses with no justification.

Congress and the President are going to cut a deal. In the meantime, I'm ignoring the press' doom-and-gloom prognostications.
 
2012-11-13 11:09:09 AM  
Fark all of you who are so quick to raise taxes.

If you would focus some of your energy towards your elected officials and put the heat on them to reduce Government waste and duplication, beef up program oversight and God for bid, simplify the tax code, you would be awash in money for all your pet programs. That requires work, hard work nobody is willing to do, much easier to raise taxes and continue racing into the night.

As a conservative, I have no problem helping those who need help, I DO have problem when I see my money wasted and misused only to have program administrators come back and say we need more money.That goes for everything from the Military to headstart programs,
NO sacred cows, can't afford them anymore.
 
2012-11-13 11:09:26 AM  

PunGent: fireclown: I suppose it is now time to throw out my challenge. Any meaningful cuts will have to be significant, and painful. Instead of complaints and snark (our stock in trade, I know), what would we suggest as solutions? I'll start:

- Reduce defense spending by 3% across the board.
- Move the social security tax cap from 100K to 250K
- Allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire
- Decrease the payback rate of SS by 2% for individuals with net worth of over 5M

Solid start.

Legalize and tax marijuana, and we're golden.



I'm not sure how to estimate how much a marijuana tax would bring in, but per the RJR site, federal excise taxes for cigarettes were 15B in 2010 and 2012. I'm going to estimate a quarter of that for weed, for 3.75B.
 
2012-11-13 11:10:42 AM  

MindStalker: This will save us more money than closing a million planned parenthood's.


What's that in Big Birds?
 
2012-11-13 11:11:22 AM  
The more I read about it, the more I like it.

We shouldn't be dictating peoples behavior through tax policy.
 
2012-11-13 11:11:32 AM  
Because increasing taxes back to a sane rate ls horrible. Perhaps if there had been 12 years to show your tactic not working...
 
2012-11-13 11:12:58 AM  

Prevailing Wind: My point is, even still, I don't mind the increase. Its not crippling. It's payment for services rendered. What part of that don't you get? You cannot fight three wars and think that its not going to cost you. Wake up and pay the potato ok?



So, do you think that these were "just wars", or that they benefited the People of the US at all?
 
2012-11-13 11:13:10 AM  
A total revenue increase of 617 billion dollars which is still less than the overspending of more than a trillion dollars. Just sayin'.
 
2012-11-13 11:13:48 AM  

Prevailing Wind: Wake up and pay the potato ok?


I have never heard that turn-of-phrase before!
 
2012-11-13 11:14:01 AM  

DingleberryMoose: PunGent: fireclown: I suppose it is now time to throw out my challenge. Any meaningful cuts will have to be significant, and painful. Instead of complaints and snark (our stock in trade, I know), what would we suggest as solutions? I'll start:

- Reduce defense spending by 3% across the board.
- Move the social security tax cap from 100K to 250K
- Allow the Bush Tax Cuts to expire
- Decrease the payback rate of SS by 2% for individuals with net worth of over 5M

Solid start.

Legalize and tax marijuana, and we're golden.

Eliminate all federal funds spent for education. That should be a state issue, not a federal one.


Pell grants?
 
2012-11-13 11:14:38 AM  

Znuh: Because increasing taxes back to a sane rate ls horrible. Perhaps if there had been 12 years to show your tactic not working...



What is a "sane" rate?

No matter how much the INSANE government takes, it will spend more, and in VERY unproductive ways.
 
2012-11-13 11:14:57 AM  
Well, for me, I estimate diving off the cliff would cost my family about $5,700. That's counting 3 things: payroll tax up by 2%, IT bracket up by 3% and reduction of child tax credit from $1,000 to $500 for my two kids.

I would prefer they kept the breaks in place for the people earning less than 250k per year - especially during a recession. I think those increases would really hurt the poor and middle class at a time when they are already struggling.

However, I would rather see them all expire than continue it for the rich. I am willing to sacrifice to begin the long hard road of paying down our debt. I don't want my children to inherit this huge bill. Besides, if I can tighten my belt, I somehow imagine the rich will survive.
 
2012-11-13 11:15:56 AM  
"Fiscal Cliff" is such a poor choice of words... unless you're a politician. We can thank Ben Bernanke for the sound bite.

It's just an expiration of temporary tax cuts and spending increases that were used to stimulate the economy in 2001-2003. Mental images of a deadly cliff simply don't apply.

Ermagahd - we'll be back to the rules we had in 2000.
 
2012-11-13 11:16:05 AM  

Amos Quito: Znuh: Because increasing taxes back to a sane rate ls horrible. Perhaps if there had been 12 years to show your tactic not working...


What is a "sane" rate?

No matter how much the INSANE government takes, it will spend more, and in VERY unproductive ways.


Well, so much for rational discussion. Call back when you're not nuts. Or still living under a reality-distortion field.
 
2012-11-13 11:17:29 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Pell grants?


Hmmm, maybe. They aren't really money spent on education, they're welfare couched in more comfortable terms. Yep, kill them, too.

Know what group of Americans receives the most welfare? Farmers. We need to change import regulations and cut farm welfare. That would save tons of money as well.
 
2012-11-13 11:17:48 AM  

Private_Citizen: Well, for me, I estimate diving off the cliff would cost my family about $5,700. That's counting 3 things: payroll tax up by 2%, IT bracket up by 3% and reduction of child tax credit from $1,000 to $500 for my two kids.

I would prefer they kept the breaks in place for the people earning less than 250k per year - especially during a recession. I think those increases would really hurt the poor and middle class at a time when they are already struggling.

However, I would rather see them all expire than continue it for the rich. I am willing to sacrifice to begin the long hard road of paying down our debt. I don't want my children to inherit this huge bill. Besides, if I can tighten my belt, I somehow imagine the rich will survive.


^^^ This
 
2012-11-13 11:18:00 AM  
It's not a cliff, it's a bluff.
 
2012-11-13 11:24:38 AM  
Yeeeah. I'm so looking forward to saying this...

Let 'em expire - head for the cliff and jump. I looked at my place in this pecking order, am ready to pay the additional share, and would love to see the parasites that have been sucking off the public teat get off their entitled asses and start pitching in their fair share. No tax breaks for Anybody. Close ALL the loopholes. Everybody pays the full share of what they rightfully owe. I'll take a bite - if only to hear the wailing of the entitled who loose all of their precious tax dodges.
 
2012-11-13 11:26:15 AM  

kyrg: Fark all of you who are so quick to raise taxes.

If you would focus some of your energy towards your elected officials and put the heat on them to reduce Government waste and duplication, beef up program oversight and God for bid, simplify the tax code, you would be awash in money for all your pet programs.


Bullshiat.

I know that Conservatives believe all the money they send to the Government mysteriously goes away in a wash of waste and duplication, but it's complete crap. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and Ag subsidies have an amazingly small overhead. We could cut the military in half and still be able to protect ourselves without difficulty, but it's the "Conservatives" who won't do that. We could cut out the entire rest of the budget (except interest on the debt, of course) and we'd still be in a hole.

Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Ag Subsidies, the Military, and Debt Interest. Either cut those by half a trillion dollars, raise half a trillion in revenues, or some mix of the two. Otherwise, our debt continues to get larger every year.
 
2012-11-13 11:27:27 AM  

JackieRabbit: Snort: Congress cannot not spend money. There is no reward for not spending money.

For the last 30 years, they have been unteathered from the reality of not spending more than you take in.

They put in all these limits and cliffs in an attempt to discipline themselves and then move them when they get there.

And Ryan is just as bad. He pretends to do something that, in reality, is doing nothing.

Too many people listen to the talking heads and don't stop to think about reality. While the government must be responsible in its spending, it simply must spend. Government spending drives every economy. Capitalist would have us believe that they do, but in reality, they are just chasing money put into the economy by governments. If the US Government were to stop spending tomorrow, our economy would collapse within a month.


This is a terrifyingly ignorant post. I genuinely hope you're trolling and are not that ignorant.
 
2012-11-13 11:28:06 AM  

Private_Citizen: I would rather see them all expire than continue it for the rich. I am willing to sacrifice to begin the long hard road of paying down our debt. I don't want my children to inherit this huge bill.


You're trusting the government will use that increase in tax revenue to pay down the dept?

i50.tinypic.com
 
2012-11-13 11:30:51 AM  

Znuh: Amos Quito: Znuh: Because increasing taxes back to a sane rate ls horrible. Perhaps if there had been 12 years to show your tactic not working...


What is a "sane" rate?

No matter how much the INSANE government takes, it will spend more, and in VERY unproductive ways.

Well, so much for rational discussion. Call back when you're not nuts. Or still living under a reality-distortion field.



^Derp^


What is a "sane" rate?

What will be enough to satisfy the ravenous bureaucracy?
 
2012-11-13 11:34:35 AM  
Modest cuts to a several-front war-bloated defense budget and going back to the tax rates that gave us a surplus is a "fiscal cliff"?
It's a farking wonder we ever made it through that long national nightmare of peace and prosperity under Clinton.

Seriously: I know we don't really want less spending and higher taxes while the economy's depressed. But by the same token we ought to have had more spending over the last 4 years and no-one phrased *that* state of affairs as a goddamm 'cliff' as if sudden fatal things were going to happen. To the contrary, even suggestions that we hold spending *steady* was routinely vilified (despite negative real interest rates) and tax cuts were a non-starter unless they included permanence for the Bush cuts for millionaires. So to now see the right contort itself around to make a vaguely Keynesian argument after four years of calls for savage austerity and deficit panic is farking hilarious.

If the Republicans want to blow up the recovery and drag things out a few more years by going on the record as defending the tax cuts of rent-seeking millionaires against literally *everyone else*, so be it. I'd rather suck it up and see our country paid for than let our infrastructure to continue to rot in the name of voodoo farking economics.
 
2012-11-13 11:34:38 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: kyrg: Fark all of you who are so quick to raise taxes.

If you would focus some of your energy towards your elected officials and put the heat on them to reduce Government waste and duplication, beef up program oversight and God for bid, simplify the tax code, you would be awash in money for all your pet programs.

Bullshiat.

I know that Conservatives believe all the money they send to the Government mysteriously goes away in a wash of waste and duplication, but it's complete crap. Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and Ag subsidies have an amazingly small overhead. We could cut the military in half and still be able to protect ourselves without difficulty, but it's the "Conservatives" who won't do that. We could cut out the entire rest of the budget (except interest on the debt, of course) and we'd still be in a hole.

Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, Ag Subsidies, the Military, and Debt Interest. Either cut those by half a trillion dollars, raise half a trillion in revenues, or some mix of the two. Otherwise, our debt continues to get larger every year.


Why only half a trillion? We have a 1.3 TRILLION dollar deficit, that is 1300 Billion dollars. We can let the tax cuts expire and bring in an estimated 80 Billion a year extra. Only 1220 Billion left to cut. What do you cut? I say we cut everything 32% across the board. That will save 1220 Billion dollars a year and get us to even.
 
2012-11-13 11:37:48 AM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Private_Citizen: I would rather see them all expire than continue it for the rich. I am willing to sacrifice to begin the long hard road of paying down our debt. I don't want my children to inherit this huge bill.

You're trusting the government will use that increase in tax revenue to pay down the dept?


Well, the last President to pay down the -debt- was a Democrat, then the GOP decided a better use of the surplus was tax breaks for all (which were somehow going to magically raise revenue).

I would hope the GOP will be happy when Obama balances the budget, but I think they will do the same thing they did last time and claim taxes are too high and argue for more tax breaks.
 
2012-11-13 11:40:52 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: TheStag: Who is this 'Fiscal Cliff' and why does he have so much control of my taxes? Can't we just find him and kick his a$$ or something?

[img826.imageshack.us image 199x267]

Well, you see, Norm, it's like this. A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it's the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members.In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine.

And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers.


The Indians would just chase all the Buffalo over a cliff. TaDa.
 
2012-11-13 11:41:37 AM  
sprd: "Why only half a trillion?"

Because the rest of the deficit is caused by war spending, the recession and projected health care costs pre-PPACA . War spending is set to wind down in 2014 anyway as we leave Afghanistan, PPACA is already cutting cost growth, and as we continue to grow the economy added revenue wipes out the rest. Why would we jeopardize the recovery by cutting government spending to solve a non-existent problem? Particularly right after Europe has demonstrated the effects of cutting public spending in depressed economies are, in fact, still depressive?
 
2012-11-13 11:41:53 AM  
Raise retirement to 70, Medicare to 68. Exempt if you're over 55. People live longer. Suck it up.
That solves a lot of spending problems.
 
2012-11-13 11:43:37 AM  

Amos Quito: What is a "sane" rate?


The same rate it was when the American economy had its greatest expansion ever, back in the late 1990s. Before some chimp came along and started a two-front war AND cut taxes at the same time, plunging us into an abyss of debt.

Problem?
 
2012-11-13 11:44:59 AM  

gweilo8888: FTFA: "Top 1% ($506,210 and above) 120,537

Unless, of course, you're fiddling it so that you're not actually paying the tax rate you're supposed to, or for that matter, any at all.

/I'm looking at you, Mittens


But congress will never close those loopholes, because they use them too.
 
2012-11-13 11:46:54 AM  
What is really funny, is people think Clinton's tax rates somehow made the economy boom. I mean, ya, just raise taxes, and all our problems go away.....


Poster before me is the classic idiot, who thinks Clinton raised taxed and that spurred growth. Imagine if something like the Internet and computers came to boom during the Clintion years instead of just tax increases.

Liberals are stupid, always have been, always will be.
 
2012-11-13 11:48:36 AM  

perigee: Yeeeah. I'm so looking forward to saying this...

Let 'em expire - head for the cliff and jump. I looked at my place in this pecking order, am ready to pay the additional share, and would love to see the parasites that have been sucking off the public teat get off their entitled asses and start pitching in their fair share. No tax breaks for Anybody. Close ALL the loopholes. Everybody pays the full share of what they rightfully owe. I'll take a bite - if only to hear the wailing of the entitled who loose all of their precious tax dodges.


Ditto.
 
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