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(Time)   America should charge bravely over the fiscal cliff like Wile E. Coyote chasing the road runner   (ideas.time.com) divider line 19
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6146 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Nov 2012 at 8:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-11-13 09:38:03 AM
2 votes:

bunner: Anybody who thinks that we can SOMEHOW leave things ESSENTIALLY THE SAME as far as debt, capital and taxes and JUST CHUG ALONG is a hell of a lot more deluded then the people calling for a reboot.


What you don't get is that a reboot is a default on existing debt obligations. How folks will get burned (defaulted on) and then just turn around and continue to invest in US debt instruments without demanding sky high return on any investment is beyond any rational logic. Especially if said reboot does not contain any mechanism to get our fiscal house in order.

Defaulting our our debt is one of the most stupid things you could do. Why do you think Greece is trying so hard to avoid it?
2012-11-13 09:25:58 AM
2 votes:

Zeb Hesselgresser: Democratic rule.


You guys... don't know how this - "America" thing works, do you?
2012-11-13 09:24:16 AM
2 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: So he suggests raising the capital gains tax rate


That number is even less significant. Raising the capital gains tax from 15 to 20 percent (Obama's plan) will raise an additional $3.6 billion per year. If the Bush tax cuts were small potatoes, this is small peas. Combine the two items an you have now cut our deficit to $1.033Trillion.

It is amusing to watch the partisan hacks flail over the notion that if we could just only tax the rich, all of our debt problems would go away.

/Math fail indeed
2012-11-13 09:15:04 AM
2 votes:

jaybeezey: BUT MAKING THE RICH FAT CATS PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING!


It won't hurt.
2012-11-13 08:45:24 AM
2 votes:
OR.... you could just reform the tax code without crashing the economy into the ground, without defaulting on debt payments, and without making your interest burden higher.
2012-11-13 12:22:26 PM
1 votes:

ghall3: Thunderpipes: You sound dumb. Lower revenue is not because of the Bush tax cuts. There was this thing called a recession.

I mention that that was a key driver as well, but thanks for acknowledging that since it is kind of hard to blame that on Obama since it happened in 2008.

So which is it? The recession and reduced government tax collection or spending that caused the deficits?

Or was it actually a combination of both, with the majority of spending increases caused by wars and economic programs that are directly related to either helping the unemployed or attempts to increase economic activity?

Hmm I wonder what the correct answer is?


Obama has been President for 4 years. The economy is still way, way in the dumper. How long you going to blame Bush?

By the way, Bush inherited a recession from Clinton, then had 7 years of growth and a good economy. What is Barry's excuse?

Liberals are dumb, that is just the way it is. Have to handle them like stupid children. But, there are now more of them and they all want their binkie.
2012-11-13 10:39:08 AM
1 votes:

ghall3: I hope no one is really so ill-informed to think that raising the taxes on the rich will alone solve our problems...


me too, but then you get this

cfletch13:
OR.... you could just reform the tax code without crashing the economy into the ground, without defaulting on debt payments, and without making your interest burden higher.

/empahsis mine

It's a start but really, we need to let the cuts expire on all income levels (perhaps with a gradual expiration over 5 years or so for the middle and lower class), we also need to reform the tax code so some of these crazy deductions get eliminated and we need to reign in the DoD. That coupled with steady economic growth and the yearly deficit goes away. At least that's my ignorant view of it since I'm no economist...

We are getting closer here but still a little ways off. Here is the math:

1)assume that reforming the tax code, the economy grows back to 'normal' and increasing taxes will get our revenue to GDP back up to where Clinton's boom days were. Let's call it 19% of GDP. That pushes federal tax revenue upward by a tick over 500Billion from where we are now (2.4T to 2.9T) You have effectivly cut the defict from $1.1T down to $600B. However, let's remember that substantially increasing taxes can have a negative impact on growth and that is not taken into account here.

2)assume that you stop the wars and cut DoD by 30%. That combined costs of these are about $656Billion per year (about $75B per year for the wars, rest for DoD buget). The new cost of the DoD would be about $405Billion and you save about $250 Billion here. Again, reducing the DoD spending will have an impact on private buisness and unemplyment ant that is not taken into account here.

These two items (not accounting for the negative feedback) have basically reduced the deficit from the current $1.1T down to $350 Billion, which is pretty much the same as the average during the GWB years.

Items that will be issues coming up in the future include normalization of interest rates will increase the interest obligation we have to pay substantially. Social Security and Medicare costs are also expected to greatly incrase as baby boomers retire and get old.

Overalll there are soutions, but they are not as easy as outlining bullet points on Fark. These decisions will negatively impact American lives. However, for our fiscal health going into the future, these types of decisions are necessary.
2012-11-13 10:07:41 AM
1 votes:
As far as I can tell, the people shilling for business as usual on the "conservative" side of the aisle have one message. "Look here, motherfu*kers, rich people know about money, duh! It's why their rich! Now shut up and stop pestering them with your *obviously* uninformed opinions!" And, yeah, well, that can go and f*ck itself.
2012-11-13 09:47:07 AM
1 votes:

bunner: HeadLever: Defaulting our our debt is one of the most stupid things you could do.

I think we have a different idea of "reboot".


If you were not talking about wiping out the debt (shaking the ecth-a-sketch) as you put it, what are you talking about?
2012-11-13 09:37:53 AM
1 votes:

bunner: Zeb Hesselgresser: Democratic rule.

You guys... don't know how this - "America" Greece thing works, do you?

2012-11-13 09:24:30 AM
1 votes:
We just blew thru 2,400 Billion in debt in 15 months, getting 80 Billion from not renewing the Bush cuts isn't going to do squat

t.qkme.me
2012-11-13 09:23:23 AM
1 votes:

Debeo Summa Credo: david_gaithersburg: The important thing here is that Buffet and all of Obama's hedge fund friends will get to keep their 15% tax rate on investments held for milliseconds.

You do realize that the 15% rate applies only to investments held for at least a year, right?


.
You are thinking of the rule that applies to you and me. There is a loophole that allow hedge funds and investment companies to declare the 15% rate for all investments, so high frequency traders like Buffet enjoy the 15% rate all of the time. The current administration refuses to touch this, instead they babel on about how rich you and I are and how you and I must pay more. Closing that loophole on Obama's buddies would raise a whole lot of cash, and possibly even slow down the Buffets and Goldman's of the world. Google "15 capital gains tax for hedge funds"
2012-11-13 09:21:52 AM
1 votes:

bunner: HeadLever: Bzzzt. wrong

Not quite.

HeadLever: When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns.

So?

HeadLever: You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.

The point is you stop pretending that trying to operate under a debt of that scale is feasible.

HeadLever: I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.

My guess is pretty damn low since the malarkey farmers whose only product is debt will need income.


Whew. Wow. This is what farklibs ACTUALLY BELIEVE.
2012-11-13 09:20:21 AM
1 votes:
Although I disagree with alot of the liberal DERP spread through TFA, I agree with the headline and general premise.

We should just let all the tax cuts lapse. It will affect growth in the short term, however we need revenues to fix out fiscal situation and at some point we need to stop kicking the can down the road. Eliminating all the tax cuts will generate 5x the revenue of just eliminating the cuts for the top. What's wrong with Clinton era rates?

Do it Obama. All you have to do is sit on your ass and we can undo these irresponsible cuts.
2012-11-13 09:20:10 AM
1 votes:

HeadLever: Bzzzt. wrong


Not quite.

HeadLever: When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns.


So?

HeadLever: You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.


The point is you stop pretending that trying to operate under a debt of that scale is feasible.

HeadLever: I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.


My guess is pretty damn low since the malarkey farmers whose only product is debt will need income.
2012-11-13 09:16:46 AM
1 votes:
We do it now or we dot it much, much harder later on.

We really need a shock to get back to reality. Libs don't understand what interest is and that is scary.

350 billion in interest payments on the debt right now. Will be 500 billion or so at the end of Obama's second term. From there is increases almost exponentially. These are CBO optimistic numbers as well, not scaredy cat stuff.

Would liberals take out a mortgage knowing the principal would grow 8-10% a year, while their salary can't even make the interest payments to begin with? That is how batcrap retarded this country is acting under Democratic rule. You cannot defend or even argue that, so you just attack anyone for pointing it out. Dumb.
2012-11-13 09:15:47 AM
1 votes:

bunner: JonnyG: How easy would it be to fix all the world's financial problems? Reset everything to zero across the board. That way, profitable ventures will continue and failing ventures will fail. Rich people who deserve to be rich will become rich again. It'll all work out, I swear.

Its' called jubilee and it's pretty much the only thing left to do that isn't band aids, bullsh*t and propping up the con.


Bzzzt. wrong. When you are racking up trillion dollar deficits every year and then default on said debt, you are not going to be suddenly living in a world of rainbows and unicorns. You previous debtors are going to refuse to finance you debt any longer since they got burned and you ability to continue to issue those trillion dollars in deficts/debt are going to be VERY costly.

I can't even imagine what interest rates would be in this type of secenairo.
2012-11-13 08:45:52 AM
1 votes:
2.bp.blogspot.com
2012-11-13 08:45:25 AM
1 votes:
/WilhelmScream
 
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