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(Chicago Trib)   "Hey guys, here is your totally awesome new tablet, and the latest version of windows. If you need me, I'll be over at the Apple campus for a bit"   (chicagotribune.com) divider line 27
    More: Interesting, Apple Campus, versions  
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2012-11-13 08:23:29 AM
Could someone summarize this for us?
 
2012-11-13 08:27:39 AM
It should be balmer stepping down... Windows 8 is FAST.. runs amazingly well.. and is destroyed by that farked up UI.. And now i will deal with years of farking idiots unable to figure out how to do the simplest tasks.. balmer is the farking devil
 
2012-11-13 08:29:47 AM
I'm still wondering whether they actually did any usability testing with the Geritol-swigging set...
 
2012-11-13 08:30:51 AM
A nice series of pics, subby. Is there perhaps, you know, a story to go with them?
 
2012-11-13 08:32:00 AM
tl;dr
 
2012-11-13 08:39:53 AM
Maybe he was tired of dealing with stupid. You'll see in news articles they will say "wasn't a team player" as a way to make Sinofsky the bad guy. While it might be true, it's probably a good thing because it meant he wasn't Ballmer's biatch like the other yes men.
 
2012-11-13 08:51:19 AM
I met SteveSi back when he was running Office. He's a hell of a charismatic guy that knew his shiat and would talk with, not just to, us dev types.

Microsoft needs him at the helm. SteveB is a jackass.
 
2012-11-13 08:54:07 AM
Much like Linux having a different UI style for each type of Linux release, and M$ changing its UI every major windows release all in the hope that it will be simple and intuitive.

Even Apple, once known for simple and intuitive UI design has slipped over the last few OS releases. At lease Apple hasn't just wholesale changed everything, and even they are making subtle changes that make it harder for some simple things to get done.

/UI design is hard
//really hard
 
2012-11-13 09:13:03 AM
Why does everybody automatically assume Ballmer is personally responsible for windows 8? He's CEO of the company. He sits in a board room and asks the Windows team lead how things are going. His input on the project probably amounted to "make windows work on a touch screen", and then he ate a doughnut and had his secretary send in the XBox team lead to talk about the status of that project...

Seriously, when's the last time anybody heard a story of Ballmer firing somebody in a crowded elevator?
 
2012-11-13 09:13:32 AM

Icetech3: Windows 8 is FAST.. runs amazingly well.. and is destroyed by that farked up UI


Can't you just revert the UI?
 
db2
2012-11-13 09:40:38 AM

H31N0US: Icetech3: Windows 8 is FAST.. runs amazingly well.. and is destroyed by that farked up UI

Can't you just revert the UI?


Nope. However, I think the new start menu is rather good. It puts a lot more in front of you, and is easier to customize. The full-screen Metro apps don't make a whole lot of sense on a two-monitor desktop, though.
 
2012-11-13 09:41:46 AM

randroid: Why does everybody automatically assume Ballmer is personally responsible for windows 8? He's CEO of the company. He sits in a board room and asks the Windows team lead how things are going. His input on the project probably amounted to "make windows work on a touch screen", and then he ate a doughnut and had his secretary send in the XBox team lead to talk about the status of that project...


Yeah but Ballmer is overweight, bald and there is that one picture of hm sweating so he MUST be stupid, lazy and arrogant and all the problems that Microsoft has must be a result of his weight, hair, and glands.
 
2012-11-13 09:43:50 AM
Man, that sucks. Sinofsky was the only reason I held out hope for a good Windows experience. W7 under his leadership was. and is, farking fantastic and I had hoped that we would see better with 9.

Now my sole hope rests with Valve making Steam a real player in the Linux space. Gaming is the only thing I do on Windows now.
 
2012-11-13 10:11:24 AM

randroid: Why does everybody automatically assume Ballmer is personally responsible for windows 8? He's CEO of the company. He sits in a board room and asks the Windows team lead how things are going. His input on the project probably amounted to "make windows work on a touch screen", and then he ate a doughnut and had his secretary send in the XBox team lead to talk about the status of that project...


Actually. Windows (and Office) are Microsoft's two flagship products that actually make money, the CEO whilst not interacting with the individual developers or indeed development teams would most certainly be involved in the creation of those products and be kept informed at every step of the way about marketing strategies, UI layout and such.

Besides which as the CEO of Microsoft the ultimate responsibility for how those products are received falls to Steve Ballmer. If a product fails to deliver it is by definition HIS PROBLEM. That's what being the CEO and sitting at the big table means.


If the product is poorly received by the market, he's a bad CEO. If he is acting as you describe and not actually managing properly then he's a bad CEO. Steve Ballmer is a bad CEO and is not good for Microsoft.
 
2012-11-13 10:24:53 AM
Microsoft, copying Apple. Again.
 
2012-11-13 10:37:59 AM

Vaneshi: randroid: Why does everybody automatically assume Ballmer is personally responsible for windows 8? He's CEO of the company. He sits in a board room and asks the Windows team lead how things are going. His input on the project probably amounted to "make windows work on a touch screen", and then he ate a doughnut and had his secretary send in the XBox team lead to talk about the status of that project...

Actually. Windows (and Office) are Microsoft's two flagship products that actually make money, the CEO whilst not interacting with the individual developers or indeed development teams would most certainly be involved in the creation of those products and be kept informed at every step of the way about marketing strategies, UI layout and such.

Besides which as the CEO of Microsoft the ultimate responsibility for how those products are received falls to Steve Ballmer. If a product fails to deliver it is by definition HIS PROBLEM. That's what being the CEO and sitting at the big table means.


If the product is poorly received by the market, he's a bad CEO. If he is acting as you describe and not actually managing properly then he's a bad CEO. Steve Ballmer is a bad CEO and is not good for Microsoft.


But if he heavily involved himself in every little decision about every microsoft product, you'd accuse him of meddeling.

Yes, the captain goes down with the ship. But listening to farkers around here, you'd think that all the problems of Windows 8 are personally his fault. These things are a collaborative effort, I guarantee that this is a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. However, Ballmer himself is not the one chef who needed to be in the kitchen. That's why he hires a guy to be head of the windows team.
 
2012-11-13 10:49:17 AM
Oh dear, if he's headed to Apple we're about to observe airborne office furniture of the likes that hasn't been witnessed since the last Telekinetics World Conference in 1862.
 
2012-11-13 10:54:49 AM
Step 1: Alienate your developer base: First, they semi-announced that Silverlight was dead, then implied that WPF would be Metro-only. Then they announced no plug-ins on Metro UI browsers. Finally, it got out that they were implementing the UI as a walled garden. My reaction, and the reaction of literally THOUSANDS of developers with projects in the pipeline was to screech to a halt and reconsider whether or not Microsoft was viable platform for upcoming products. And the answer is "NO." Oh, they backpedaled on the "death of Silverlight" statement, but can we really trust them? Again, "NO."

Step 2: Alienate your user base: Create what will go down in history as the crappiest UI ever created (except maybe for iOS, but it's a tough call). Then push an underpowered poorly manufactured tablet to run it on while simultaneous ignoring the needs of the people who USED (note the past tense) to buy your products- the desktop users.

Step 3: ??? (Seriously- ??? What could you possibly do to screw up further, Microsoft?)

Step 4: Profit. (Or not).
 
2012-11-13 11:09:47 AM

tillerman35: Step 1: Alienate your developer base: First, they semi-announced that Silverlight was dead, then implied that WPF would be Metro-only. Then they announced no plug-ins on Metro UI browsers. Finally, it got out that they were implementing the UI as a walled garden. My reaction, and the reaction of literally THOUSANDS of developers with projects in the pipeline was to screech to a halt and reconsider whether or not Microsoft was viable platform for upcoming products. And the answer is "NO." Oh, they backpedaled on the "death of Silverlight" statement, but can we really trust them? Again, "NO."

Step 2: Alienate your user base: Create what will go down in history as the crappiest UI ever created (except maybe for iOS, but it's a tough call). Then push an underpowered poorly manufactured tablet to run it on while simultaneous ignoring the needs of the people who USED (note the past tense) to buy your products- the desktop users.

Step 3: ??? (Seriously- ??? What could you possibly do to screw up further, Microsoft?)

Step 4: Profit. (Or not).


3. Of those few developers that did stay on the boat, alienate them further by charging them extra. This was only hastily backpedaled later after an outcry from the community. Furthermore, if you want to develop for Windows Phone 8 and don't have Windows 8 Pro ? Too bad, no WP8 development for you. Offer a feedback forum on the development of Windows 8 and then outright ignore it and do the opposite of what was asked.

I'm on Ubuntu now, and while I still have a Windows 7 partition, I don't go there anymore. I will outright refuse to install and use Windows 8, because it's such a knee-jerk "Apple-me-too" ripoff, and a failed one at that, destroying whatever (little) credit they had. At least you could install whatever you wanted, wherever you wanted in W7, and ffs keep the yapping about the "but but Desktop App!!!" or "unwilling to change" rhetoric to yourselves. Windows 8 brings nothing to the table that could enrich my life or work experience (programming). It does nothing Windows 7 doesn't already do, and probably does better (Start Menu, no Metro, no fullscreen for every thing you do, _one_ place to configure setttings, no confusing hot corners, etc...)
 
2012-11-13 11:19:30 AM

tillerman35: Alienate your developer base: First, they semi-announced that Silverlight was dead, then implied that WPF would be Metro-only.


If you couldn't figure out that Silverlight, a browser-plugin-based UI framework, was dead on arrival, or that WINDOWS Presentation Foundation wouldn't fly in the modern, platform-independent UI arena, dominated by mobile and web, you deserve everything you get.

I never bothered to learn W*F, instead choosing javascript/HTML and Asp.net MVC. Stuck on iOS these days, so back to a native UI framework, but at least one that runs on a device people want to buy!
 
2012-11-13 11:47:17 AM

randroid:
But if he heavily involved himself in every little decision about every microsoft product, you'd accuse him of meddeling.


Meddeling no. Micro-managing maybe and in that instance it would be an accurate summary of what he'd done as well.

Yes, the captain goes down with the ship. But listening to farkers around here, you'd think that all the problems of Windows 8 are personally his fault. These things are a collaborative effort, I guarantee that this is a case of too many cooks in the kitchen. However, Ballmer himself is not the one chef who needed to be in the kitchen. That's why he hires a guy to be head of the windows team.

Personally his fault no and frankly I've never said that. However the CEO of a company is where the buck ultimately stops be it Ballmer, Cook, Gates or when he was alive Jobs. I agree that a lot of farkers (and indeed people on other forums) have problems separating the man from his job I am not one of them. Steve Ballmer's personal affairs are just that... personal, I judge him purely on his behaviour as the CEO of Microsoft.

If it is a case of too many cooks, then someone hired the wrong people or failed to manage the project correctly... which again means he is responsible for this; as I said Windows is one of their top sellers and not a 'skunk works' thing a few devs worked on in their spare time. He would of had direct oversight of all senior managerial positions. Thus he, potentially, failed in his duty as CEO.
 
2012-11-13 11:53:33 AM

tillerman35:
Step 2: Alienate your user base: Create what will go down in history as the crappiest UI ever created (except maybe for iOS, but it's a tough call). Then push an underpowered poorly manufactured tablet to run it on while simultaneous ignoring the needs of the people who USED (note the past tense) to buy your products- the desktop users.


Actually the Metro UI looks to be pretty good for modern mobile devices where touch is the primary input method (as opposed to a stylus) and the same can be said for iOS in that respect as well.

However take either of those touch focused interfaces and drop them on to a traditional, non-multitouch capable, desktop machine and you're going to get issues. Saying that you'd theoretically get less issues with iOS doing this due to the prevalence of multitouch capable devices on Mac's ('magic mice' and the scratch pads on the laptops).

So I would argue that is not that the UI is crap just that it's crap once removed from it's natural habitat.
 
2012-11-13 12:10:53 PM
Surface is crap and Windows RT is a dead end.

Surface Pro, OTOH, should be quite nice. It'll be the only place Windows 8 really feels at-home. Just hope it has enough grunt to play some games. I'm not talking Crysis here, just older UE3 titles. Even graphics hardware from over five years ago can run something like ME3 in 1920x1080. I know we've seen Tegra and Apple's hardware running UE3 games lately, but those are running highly-optimized OSes and fresh builds of ARM-specific game code. Microsoft's Surface Pro will need to run general x86 programs using DirectX at a reasonable speed.

Fingers crossed.
 
2012-11-13 12:17:25 PM
Van, I said in general people blame Ballmer personally I don't believe I said that *you* personally blame Ballmer, and I agree, the buck stops with the CEO.

HOWEVER,

People like CEO's involvement in projects is very broad, but not very deep. "Touch interfaces are the future, make it happen" Is not a bad design vision. I agree, touch is the future. Even for desktop computing. Any mac owner can tell you, that multi-touch enabled track pad is the farking business. Gesturing on them is what is clinically known as "baller", and Windows 8 is moving in that direction.

I applaud Ballmer for that decision if he's the one who made it.

I'm not arguing Windows 8 doesn't need a lot of work, it does. And the decision to go walled garden in Metro is a head scratcher, but it is my opinion that they will fold on that and make metro apps installable via msiexec without requiring a computer to be on the domain. Improvements in general will be patched in over the next year. Come SP1, everybody will love windows 8. Yes, this is a MS stereotype, but it is what it is.

However, in an orginization as large as Microsoft, the CEO has no business micromanaging anything. He should be doing upper management stuff, not hanging out over the shoulder of the Windows team code monkeys. The Windows team lead is his eyes and ears, this is how the management of large organizations works. If Windows 8 turns out to be a failure, Ballmer is 'to blame' by virtue of being in charge of Microsoft. However, this is due to him having put trust in the wrong people, not because he personally farked up windows.
 
2012-11-13 12:29:36 PM

Kuroshin: Fingers crossed.


That's actually easy to do. Jam a Core i5 inside (or more likely a Core i3) and mate it to a mobile GPU of some description other than the Intel IGP.

However x86 generates more heat and has a higher power consumption than ARM. I would not expect the Surface Pro to be as thin, light or have as long a battery life as the ARM based version running Windows RT nor would I expect it to be passively cooled either.

So it's a traditional tablet form factor rather than the slate style of Android and iOS based devices.

randroid: People like CEO's involvement in projects is very broad, but not very deep.

This depends on the CEO, the size of the company and the importance of the project. Although more the importance and person than the company size.

However, in an orginization as large as Microsoft, the CEO has no business micromanaging anything.
Never said he was doing this, you used the word 'meddle' in a theoretical argument I said it'd be micro-managing.

However, this is due to him having put trust in the wrong people, not because he personally farked up windows.

So he picked the wrong people or the people he picked subsequently picked the wrong people. He made a bad managerial decision and it's rightfully biting him on the ass.
 
2012-11-13 12:39:33 PM
randroid: People like CEO's involvement in projects is very broad, but not very deep.
This depends on the CEO, the size of the company and the importance of the project. Although more the importance and person than the company size.

However, in an orginization as large as Microsoft, the CEO has no business micromanaging anything.
Never said he was doing this, you used the word 'meddle' in a theoretical argument I said it'd be micro-managing.

However, this is due to him having put trust in the wrong people, not because he personally farked up windows.

So he picked the wrong people or the people he picked subsequently picked the wrong people. He made a bad managerial decision and it's rightfully biting him on the ass.

1) True. Microsoft is huge though. When ballmer comes in the Windows team lab, I guarantee you he has a babysitter.

2) You're right, he's not. He shouldn't be. He's upper management.

3) Maybe. Time will tell how this decision pans out. With big changes comes growing pains. Microsoft has laid the foundation for what could be huge. Or it could be a huge disaster. Maybe 20 years from now we'll look back on this as a major turning point in the history of computers on par with things like the personal computer. Or maybe it'll be windows ME 2.0. If this is the case, then we can all call for Ballmer's head. However, it's been less than a month since it came out, too soon to call the game IMO.
 
2012-11-13 08:47:23 PM

Vaneshi: That's actually easy to do. Jam a Core i5 inside (or more likely a Core i3) and mate it to a mobile GPU of some description other than the Intel IGP.

However x86 generates more heat and has a higher power consumption than ARM. I would not expect the Surface Pro to be as thin, light or have as long a battery life as the ARM based version running Windows RT nor would I expect it to be passively cooled either.

So it's a traditional tablet form factor rather than the slate style of Android and iOS based devices.



The Surface Pro specs are online, so no need to guess. It's basically a MacBook Air in tablet form, so performance, battery life, and heat should not be all that bad, since Intel ha actually gotten pretty good at making low-voltage/high performance x86 chips. The Pro is basically the same weight as the RT version, and is only 0.10" thicker, which isn't too bad considering all that you are getting with the Pro version. It just has an Intel HD 4000 integrated GPU, but the new Intel IGPs are actually not all that bad for most tasks, and there are a surprising number of older games that will run passibly on it.
 
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