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(CNN)   One week later, a reminder to conservatives: In 1962, the government regulated the price of every airline ticket, all men prepared for the draft, the top income tax rate was 91%, and owning a telephone or gold bars was illegal under federal law   (cnn.com) divider line 61
    More: Obvious, obama, British Universities, social insurances, American conservatives, David Frum, Russell Kirk, The Daily Beast, federal law  
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3822 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Nov 2012 at 7:06 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-11-13 07:34:36 AM  
6 votes:

BarrRepublican: Look, I may be a RINO because I believe evolution is a thing and that men are likely warming the climate of the planet. But when did we get so far away from the conservative tenet of "If something does not work, return to the previous, working method."


You're really missing the whole "cherry picking" thing, aren't you?

See also: a lack of understanding of this concept when it comes to the modern GOP vs the modern Democratic Party:
oi50.tinypic.com

Today's GOP blindly abhors every piece of watered-down conservative legislation that originates from someone with a D in front of their name. Rush Limbaugh's head would explode into thousands of oxycontin-soaked pieces if someone suggested an actual liberal policy. On anything.
2012-11-13 07:39:25 AM  
4 votes:

clkeagle: BarrRepublican: Look, I may be a RINO because I believe evolution is a thing and that men are likely warming the climate of the planet. But when did we get so far away from the conservative tenet of "If something does not work, return to the previous, working method."

You're really missing the whole "cherry picking" thing, aren't you?

See also: a lack of understanding of this concept when it comes to the modern GOP vs the modern Democratic Party:


Today's GOP blindly abhors every piece of watered-down conservative legislation that originates from someone with a D in front of their name. Rush Limbaugh's head would explode into thousands of oxycontin-soaked pieces if someone suggested an actual liberal policy. On anything.


I understand the sentiment, hell
Obamacare is a heritage foundation product.

Barack Obama, despite the gasbags' penchant to label thing communist, is the best Republican president in my lifetime. Period.
2012-11-13 08:23:39 AM  
3 votes:
The line between "making" and "taking" is not a racial line. The biggest government program we have, Medicare, benefits a population that is 85% white.

When Nixon successfully adopted his "Southern Strategy", which was to win over Southern crackers, racists, and loonies to the Republican party (which was a progressive, educated middle class, Northern party in the days of Lincoln) he took over an ideology which was alien to genuine conservatism and to genuine progress: racism.

Even today, the GOP is the party of choice of those who would apply a religious (Fundamentalist Protestant Christian) and a racial (White) litmus test to voting, to holding office, to "entitlements", and to full membership (Real Americanism) in American politics and society.

This is the Party of Jim Crow.

What they did was take the racist South's convinction that blacks are immoral, stupid, lazy monkeys who have to be beaten and coerced into work and metastasized it to apply to any whites who oppose them, which means Democrats and liberals and non-fundamentalist Christians (until recently Jews and Roman Catholics were "the Enemy" although the change of heart on abortion and the furor over gay rights and marriage have brought many of the Neo-Con Roman Catholics and Jews under the "Movement"'s sway, not to mention the Deification of the State of Israel by fundamentalists who anticipate it's destruction and the conversion of the Jews as part of their End Times and the Triumph of their own brand of Christianity in this world and the next.

In the double-think which has come to dominate the Republican Party and the Conservatives and the Movementaryans, black equals slack and white equals might and right. Thus, they promote a narrative in which all Democrats, all liberals, all non-whites, all non conservatives, non-fundamentalists, are undermining America, Right Religion, the World, Work, the Economy, etc.

They are takers. We are makers. Arbeit macht frei.

This ideology (hypocritical and counter-factual as it is) underlies policy ("right to work legislation), tactics and strategy ("voter fraud" equals vote supression for partisan advantage and to disenfrancise the hated minorities, starting with non-whites, and proceeding on to all "enemy" groups such as the poor, liberals, Democrats, women, college students, the urban masses, etc.).

But as David Frum points out from his more traditional Republican, old world Conservative, point of view, this is simply untrue.

Most of the benefits of the "entitlements" go to whites not only because they are more numerous (for now) but because the entitlements are skewed towards the more prosperous members of the middle classes (who do most of the vote, campaigning and donating) rather than to the people who need help most.

Frum is right that 85% of the money goes to whites, but he neglects to point out that blacks alone are 12% of the population, Asians another 3%, then there are Hispanics, native Americans, women, etc.

The system is skewed to give to the self-style "makers" while not giving enough to the so-called "takers" who are the whole point of welfare, healthcare, education and so forth--the people who need help meetng basic physical and other needs because they are too poor to pay for costly treatments and high-priced schools (and the bad schools are often more costly than the best schools--you can pay way more to go to Dickwad University than Harvard, where the tuition and scholarships are better balanced).

Every furious Replublican, even those who are not consciously racist, regards the Democrat as a natural born N***** and since the real N****** are voting Democratic at a rate up to 95% or even more in some districts, the equation holds subconsciously even when the conscious mind abhors it.

And now the whole system of kick-backs to white middle class Christians is in jeopardy because there are other churches, other mosques, other synagagues and temples stepping up to the line to collect their share of the kickbacks, while the percentage of the population which is Pure White Protestant Christian is declining rapidly, and by mid-century the White Africaaners of America will be in the minority as they are a political minority even now.

The 46% who vote Republican are even more greedy and needy and stupid and vicious than the 47% who pay no income tax. In reality, of course, many of the.46% who vote Republican are not the bootstrapy, but the very needy and greedy who howl because there's a naturally born unentitled black man in the welfare line when they collect their own entitlement. In fact, most of the 47% are the grandparents, wives, college-bound sons and daughters of the bootstrapy. It is white people, "hard-working families" who collect most of the entitlements even though they will privately acknowledge that like Grandpa Simpson, they don't want the money, they don't need the money, but they'll raise Hell if even one payment is late.

Old age pensions, medicare, medicaid--all of these go to the bootstrapy even more than the needy. The white Christians are eager to pick up their government subsidies on top of their government tax exemptions on top of their government make-work projects and "charity" and so forth. They get way more money in their comfortably padded pews than the poor "community organizer" gets in the slums, even if the "community organizer" is the pastor of a large but needy congregation.

In short, double think, hypocrisy, egotism, selfishness, racism, bigotry and hatred, are the sacrements of the Bootstrapy Gun-Toting Jesus.

David Frum, as a Canadian is a moderate born and bred. Well, at least he is no Conrad Black. But even in his moderation he misses the point he is making, namely that the Democrats have no monopoly on sin and the Republicans no monopoly on bootstrapy.

But let us shout the Truth that he does latch on to: THE LINE BETWEEN MAKER AND TAKER IS NOT A RACIAL LINE.

It is also not a religious line, a sex line, a class line, an age line, a sexual orientation line, or a political line.

To quote The Economist, the Republicans are like terrorists. When they are out of office they attack government as a monstrous evil, but when they get into office they settle in and spend even more freely than Democrats.

The double-think is so thick that American conservatives don't even notice it, while even their opponents don't notice it. It's just so, "normal", that it is not perceived.

This is the supreme failing of the Republican Party, the Democratic Party, and the whole American political system. The blind are leading the blind into a pit. David Frum, being an outsider (Canadian), can see some of the Beast that the Beast itself can not see. David Frum may be a conservative, but he is an old school, pre-Southern Take-Over conservative.

Well, Bless His Evil Little Soul, but he does see where the Romney campaign went wrong, where Republicans have been going wrong since, oh, let's say 1962 or so, and where the whole system is wrong.

You want the Truth? You can't handle the Truth!
2012-11-13 08:18:23 PM  
2 votes:

o5iiawah: All those expenses, subsidies, welfare, whatever buzzword you want to call them are afforded to any other business in America.


The federal and state governments offer oil & gas companies multiple tax credits and exemptions that no other industry receives or credits and exemptions that they shouldn't be receiving. Some examples:

Percentage depletion
Companies are generally allowed to deduct the costs of an investment over the life span of that investment. As the value of the investment depreciates, the deduction goes down. Oil companies on the other hand, get to use a special method for their deductions called "percentage depletion." Instead of deducting the costs of a well as its value declines, oil companies can deduct a flat percentage of the income they derive from it. Thus a gas or oil well's tax benefits do not depreciate over time, and the more profitable a well, the greater the tax benefit. No other industry is allowed to do this.

Domestic manufacturing deduction
Manufacturing companies were extended special deductions starting in 2004 for keeping manufacturing jobs in the US. The gas & oil companies managed to lobby enough to get included in these special deductions, even though they can't outsource most of their business since it depends on geographically fixed resources.

Immediate deductions for drilling costs
Whereas companies in every other industry have to spread their deductions for investments over the life of the investment, oil & gas companies can take immediate full deductions for some expenses involved in the building of oil and gas wells. No other industry is allowed to do this.

"Dual capacity taxpayer" rules
We allow companies that do business internationally to reduce from their tax bill for taxes paid to other governments. Oil companies get "dual capacity taxpayer" status, which allows them to claim tax reductions on royalty payments (which are not taxes) to other countries.

Seriously, if you think oil & gas companies aren't getting a totally sweet deal from the federal and state governments that is not being extended to other industries, you're completely clueless.
2012-11-13 01:26:04 PM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


You're right. Some of us would like to get out of at-risk, white-trash neighborhoods by studying and bettering ourselves, and maybe providing lives for our younger relatives, who can't get out yet.

/F**k you. Seriously. F**k you.
2012-11-13 09:01:26 AM  
2 votes:

ghare: Lunaville: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Don't all men still have to register for the draft?

At 18, I think a firm argument could be made that they are still boys, but yes, males are still required to register for the draft. Draft requirements have been in place since Reagan was in office. There was no peace time draft requirement prior to Reagans' tenure. (Yes, I'm aware that we currently are at war.)

Really? I never saw a declaration of war.


Oh, you would have fit right in with the "it's a 'conflict' not a war!" people talking about Vietnam in the 60s.
2012-11-13 08:57:53 AM  
2 votes:

Crunch61: unexplained bacon: UNC_Samurai: unexplained bacon: o5iiawah: Today's democratic party being center-right? Obama a republican?

Thanks fark for starting my day off well.


When Obama spoke recently to a GM plant and asserted that he wants to do to all manufacturing what he did with GM, that is not the work of any conservative I know.

share a link to where you got your info on this wouldja?

did these same guys tell you a Mitt win was coming too? lol

No, he's right. Obama is interested in keeping manufacturing jobs in America instead of moving them overseas in search of slave cheap labor. Based on what I've seen of conservatives lately, I'd say there is a distinct difference there.

I agree, but I'm sure his angle would be more along the lines of "oh no!, Obama wants to socialize the auto industry!"
I bet if he did provide a link to his source it would be ridiculous.

Just for the record, here's a link to the speech...
Link


cool, thanks...

"I said, I believe in American workers, I believe in this American industry, and now the American auto industry has come roaring back," he said. "Now I want to do the same thing with manufacturing jobs, not just in the auto industry, but in every industry.

"I don't want those jobs taking root in places like China, I want those jobs taking root in places like Pueblo," Obama told a crowd gathered for a campaign rally at the Palace of Agriculture at the Colorado State Fairgrounds here.


that son of a commie!!! truly histories greatest blah blah blah
2012-11-13 08:36:47 AM  
2 votes:

unexplained bacon: o5iiawah: Today's democratic party being center-right? Obama a republican?

Thanks fark for starting my day off well.


When Obama spoke recently to a GM plant and asserted that he wants to do to all manufacturing what he did with GM, that is not the work of any conservative I know.

share a link to where you got your info on this wouldja?

did these same guys tell you a Mitt win was coming too? lol


No, he's right. Obama is interested in keeping manufacturing jobs in America instead of moving them overseas in search of slave cheap labor. Based on what I've seen of conservatives lately, I'd say there is a distinct difference there.
2012-11-13 08:15:22 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


le'me guess...you were told they just want free stuff?

yeah, hey, didn't those same people tell you Mitt was ahead in the polls? how hard did you laugh at that?

/Obama voter who works hard, pays taxes, owns a home, and is tired of GOPers crying about the lack of interest in their terrible ideas.
//I know it's everyone else's fault, they're moochers. Keep telling yourself that as you watch the country move right on past you.
2012-11-13 08:05:08 AM  
2 votes:
Then later the phone company allowed you to "buy" the phone, however they still owned the inside, you owned just the outside.
Of course, they made this clear to the consumer (not)
2012-11-13 07:51:45 AM  
2 votes:
Both of my parents worked for the phone company. In 1962, we had a party line. It was prohibitively expensive to get your own line at that point, and there were long waiting lists even to get a party line. The phone was permanently installed; you couldn't unplug a phone and move it to a jack in a different room. You couldn't disconnect it or turn off the ringer either. If some jackass wanted to keep calling you at 2 AM, you could take the phone off the hook. If you did that, there would be loud tone coming from it for a few minutes. And the phone company didn't like you doing that; they considered that abusing the system, and they'd call you up and yell at you about it. Also, when the phone was off the hook, an operator could listen in. If someone was speaking near the phone, she could hear it.

I remember hearing my dad gripe about crazy little old ladies who would "just sit and talk all day." With disgust and scorn in his voice. What were they doing wrong? "Well they just sat there and talked...all day. About nothing."

How do you know they talked about nothing?

No response to that--I think he didn't like admitting that they all regularly eavesdropped illegally on people.

And why is it a problem? Isn't a phone to talk?

Yeah, but if everybody talked all the time, the lines would be busy all the time, and then nobody could make a call.

So is there a rule that says how much you can talk? When someone buys a phone, are they told, you can only use it a certain number of minutes a day?

No. But these crazy little old ladies, they just sit and talk...all day.

So that was 1962. Cranky white men angry about sad, lonely old women using telephones to talk to each other. Now rolling forward to 2012, and I hear cranky white men angry at, of all things, teachers, and I think, really, not much has changed.
2012-11-13 07:51:24 AM  
2 votes:
Look, they aren't EVER going to let go of the delusion that only white republicans have or want jobs. They are NEVER changing their tune on that, ever. That is their biggest and hardest selling point to their base.

It seriously turns them on to imagine themselves as this besieged, oppressed minority, valiantly struggling against the corrupt ravening hordes of evil, godless jobless liberals. Mighty Christian soldiers doing the Good Work but constantly under attack by the very people they labor for.

Reality of course is a little different. Reality has a liberal bias, and the simple facts are that RedStates are welfare states, that by and large survive by the largess of productive blue states. Liberals and democrats and humanist libertarians all over America work and pay taxes so that back country white trash can live on welfare and food stamps and angrily decry minorities getting "obamaphones"(that were a bush administration invention).
2012-11-13 07:40:40 AM  
2 votes:

Gulper Eel: RoyBatty: Did David Frum ever apologize for putting Iran in the axis of evil a few weeks after they offered sympathy and help to us after 9/11?

Because a transparently self-serving gesture totally makes up for 30 years of general asshattedness.


Without excusing the violence committed over the years by Iran, we can acknowledge that the United States committed grave offenses against the sovereignty of Iran and against the Iranian people for many decades before factions of that society turned to asshattedness. Perhaps, they should have sought a non-violent means of protesting U.S. interference in their affairs, but their failure to seek a path to peaceful resistance does not negate the role of the USA in our past conflicts.
2012-11-13 07:38:00 AM  
2 votes:
Having watched an AirTran flight from Philadelphia to Orlando board I would vote for a candidate who would reregulate the airlines.
2012-11-13 07:30:26 AM  
2 votes:

BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?


i think the memory of the 'bakelight harvest gold/baby-shiat green telephone with the rotary dial and the 500 foot long cord' is one of those indicators of age, kind of like remembering beer cans that had pull tabs.

there was a time when that was the phone you could get, because that's all that was being rented from the phone company - i could be remember it sideways, but i don't think it was a matter of 'owning a phone is illegal' so much as it was illegal for them to be sold - i remember when a phone store opened up in a local mall (right next to the Lowrey Organ, complete with fat housewifes playing ooompa-music) and it being a momentous occasion, at least.
the day the world changed, and you could get a phone shaped like Garfield. Garfield! we didn't get our flying cars, but dammit we got garfield phones.

now if you'll excuse me, my belt onion needs adjusting
2012-11-13 07:27:56 AM  
2 votes:
Look, I may be a RINO because I believe evolution is a thing and that men are likely warming the climate of the planet. But when did we get so far away from the conservative tenet of "If something does not work, return to the previous, working method."

The 90s had tax rates that worked for America. Start there if you want to start reigning this defecit in.
2012-11-13 07:25:34 AM  
2 votes:

BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?


Ma Bell had the monopoly on the telephone system. They owned the phones, they owned the lines, they owned it all. If you had a working telephone, it was either owned by Ma Bell or stolen property. It was an absolute monopoly on our communications infrastructure. That's why you had a running skit on SNL with the punch line "what are you going to do, we're the phone company?".

The break up of Bell Telephone was a huge deal, how did you miss it?
2012-11-13 07:19:50 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


I have no idea why you're laughing even harder, but the mere fact that you attacked it makes me think it's 100% true. Your track record of supporting complete and utter bs has preceded you.
2012-11-13 07:18:41 AM  
2 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


If you did, it would be a nice change of pace from all your whining and crying. So the article didn't get through to you at all, did it? Let me guess: David Frum is a RINO, a traitor, a commie, etc. Oh, and also Romney still had a chance at taking Ohio!
2012-11-13 07:08:58 AM  
2 votes:
Nostalgia is great when one can cherry-pick only the good parts.

thefeministwire.com
2012-11-13 03:23:39 PM  
1 votes:

o5iiawah: unexplained bacon: o5iiawah: Link

"I said, I believe in American workers, I believe in this American industry, and now the American auto industry has come roaring back," he said. "Now I want to do the same thing with manufacturing jobs, not just in the auto industry, but in every industry. -

and what exactly does that imply in your opinion?

don't want to come right out and say something stupid?

That the president's belief that there should be public ownership and state control of industry is the furthest thing from a "center-right" or republican/conservative position?

Teufelaffe: Just because you're too ignorant to be aware of something, doesn't make it a myth.

/And yes, a tax credit is a subsidy, so don't even try that pedantic BS.

Thanks for proving my point. All those expenses, subsidies, welfare, whatever buzzword you want to call them are afforded to any other business in America. Oil and Gas development expenses are COSTS of business, they are usually DEDUCTED from the revenue of an overall business, thereby forming the tax LIABILITY of the unit. The Oil company then pays taxes on the earnings - costs.

If an oil company makes $60BN in profit and has $6Bn in expenses, it pays a tax liability on $54BN in income. It does not get $6BN in welfare.

Oil companies are simply an easy target for liberals who havent the slightest understanding of how economics or taxes work, makes for amusing reads however...


tax credits are subsidies.

a rose by any other name.
2012-11-13 01:58:08 PM  
1 votes:
1.bp.blogspot.com

This was my favourite. The handset weighed around 30 pounds if I recall. As a bonus, I think the cord was insulated with Asbestos. Truly a weapon of the ages.
2012-11-13 12:35:30 PM  
1 votes:

eddiesocket: BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?

And these were the good ol' days the Republicans pine for. (Aka days that never ever existed).


Owning it wasn't. Connecting it to a Ma Bell line, however, was.
2012-11-13 09:49:57 AM  
1 votes:

mrshowrules: nmemkha: Every time someone calls Obama a socialist, God kills a kitten.

What if you do that while masturbating?


You create a zombie kitten.
2012-11-13 09:36:23 AM  
1 votes:

Giltric: your insurance kicks you to the curb when you reach qualifying age for medicare.


that's odd, why would they do that? it's almost like insuring old people isn't profitable and could never be taken up by the private sector.
2012-11-13 09:02:14 AM  
1 votes:

Lunaville: Hobodeluxe: ChuDogg: The national debt was also about 250 billion in today's dollars.

No, not deficit, total debt.

then the military industrial complex took over. Vietnam,The Cold War,Arms Race etc. It bankrupted the USSR trying to keep up with us and fight in Afghanistan. but hey between that and the Reagan Tax cuts we were well on our way to borrowing our way into a hole. Clinton stabilized it and then along comes Shrub and the neocons. Free money! Free wars! Free medicare part D! Houses for everybody! We'll let the next guy worry about it.

It amazes me the number of people that fail to realize that every dollar expended upon war is a dollar we have failed to invest in our domestic economy.

Lately, I've noticed there are folks in the press wringing their hands about the "down-sizing" of the wars and all those folks who will be coming home looking for a job. How twisted does a society have to be that war has become our replacement for, say, manufacturing?

We have some cracker-jack smart folks in the military. If you've got medics that have performed minor surgery in an open field, don't bring them home and tell them they aren't qualified to work as an LPN because they lack a piece of paper. Pay for those folks to take the MCAT. Pay their application fees to their local medical schools.Give them grants, not loans, for their medical education. Those that don't fare quite as well on the MCAT can train to be nurses or other medical personnel.

And medicine isn't the only area we could invest in. There are lots of ways we both boost our economy and our standard of living.


Veterans have those benefits in the form of the GI Bill. The GI Bill pays for quite a bit, depending on whether you use the MGIB or Post 9/11 one. I know people who got out and went to college full time on Post 9/11. Aside from paperwork backlog they're quite happy with it. They've been able to go to class, take MCAT, GRE, licensure exams, and even get their pilot's license.

The issue is that vets frequently return to where they initially left for service, which are quite often America's rural sh*tholes, where there are no jobs. Veterans are also left with little guidance on how and where to apply and ensure they get VA benefits while they're still serving. Some might take a TAP class, but how well that is advertised and used varies based on unit and installation.

There's also the problem of veterans not paying attention to their NCO or CO's, "Keep all your f*cking paperwork!" mantras, that gets railed in their heads from day one sometimes, but they ignore because they think, "Oh I'm making $xxxx per month? This is so much money! I'm gonna go buy a new Camaro, get married to this civilian I've known for nine weeks, and get an Xbox 360!"

The military is rife with country bumpkins who experience making a steady paycheck for the first time, blow it and end up in debt. Then they get demoted and discharged for not paying their debt, and wind up on welfare after being discharged. They have spotty, at best, records for whatever supposed injury they may have suffered during service, so they get lost in the VA system for having bad records. Then they turn around, become Republicans, b*tch about all the welfare queens, and how the VA doesn't work because they didn't get their 20% disability, and they have three kids by two moms who require child support payments.

So every time I hear some veteran or conservative complain about the VA, I wonder if they're one of those who legitimately got screwed by faultiness and congestion in the VA system (Because there is, believe me, it's why the VFW and the American Legion still have a purpose today); or they're one of the many who didn't bother keeping copies of their medical and service records, and expect everything to magically work because they have a DD-214 and, "this is America, dammit!"

Naturally the conservative response to this has been to propose cuts to the VA (Thanks, Michelle Bachmann) and expand spending on the DOD.
2012-11-13 09:02:07 AM  
1 votes:

Teufelaffe: heap: i think the memory of the 'bakelight harvest gold/baby-shiat green telephone with the rotary dial and the 500 foot long cord' is one of those indicators of age, kind of like remembering beer cans that had pull tabs.

I'll do you one better: I remember these:

[i49.tinypic.com image 460x460]


yah, those were the natural to turn into a smoking device - the stupidity of smoking from an aluminum can was negated by the awesomeness of having a premade carb.
2012-11-13 08:53:10 AM  
1 votes:

verbaltoxin: Monkeyhouse Zendo: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Don't all men still have to register for the draft?

It's called "selective service" now but yeah.

Odd that you don't see too many feminists fighting to get their names on that list. ;)

That's because feminists argue for doing away with the draft entirely.


Now that's an argument I've never heard before.

/do know feminists who argue for co-gender selective service registration
//no problem with the draft, but it should be limited to times of war, none of this Vietnam "conflict not a war" bullshiat. Call it a war when it is, damnit.
2012-11-13 08:49:50 AM  
1 votes:

neongoats: unexplained bacon: Hey maybe some righty could help me out....

where do you get the idea that Obama is playing to people who want free stuff?
has he made any radical changes to the social safety net that has existed through R and D admins alike?

you all love to assert that Obama won because people want free stuff...explain yourself...

looking at you o5iiawah and randomjsa...any righty will do, let me in on the story.

He thinks Obama created TracFone to steal money from whites to give Obamaphones to minorities.

Of course, everyone I know with one is white, and, you know GWB's presidency started that.


and it's an extension of a program started under Reagan I believe...but yeah, Thanks Obama!

I know a few people with those phones...old white people. I'm glad they have 'em.
2012-11-13 08:47:13 AM  
1 votes:

Generation_D: The Modern Republican Playbook

That worked up until 2008 for President, and is now starting to fail in local elections as well.

I would not be surprised if it still can succeed in the South, but as a national strategy it might be done now, finally.


People keep saying the South will stay deep red like it's a sure thing. Not with ever growing numbers of latinos and blacks it isn't.
2012-11-13 08:46:25 AM  
1 votes:

Hobodeluxe: ChuDogg: The national debt was also about 250 billion in today's dollars.

No, not deficit, total debt.

then the military industrial complex took over. Vietnam,The Cold War,Arms Race etc. It bankrupted the USSR trying to keep up with us and fight in Afghanistan. but hey between that and the Reagan Tax cuts we were well on our way to borrowing our way into a hole. Clinton stabilized it and then along comes Shrub and the neocons. Free money! Free wars! Free medicare part D! Houses for everybody! We'll let the next guy worry about it.


It amazes me the number of people that fail to realize that every dollar expended upon war is a dollar we have failed to invest in our domestic economy.

Lately, I've noticed there are folks in the press wringing their hands about the "down-sizing" of the wars and all those folks who will be coming home looking for a job. How twisted does a society have to be that war has become our replacement for, say, manufacturing?

We have some cracker-jack smart folks in the military. If you've got medics that have performed minor surgery in an open field, don't bring them home and tell them they aren't qualified to work as an LPN because they lack a piece of paper. Pay for those folks to take the MCAT. Pay their application fees to their local medical schools.Give them grants, not loans, for their medical education. Those that don't fare quite as well on the MCAT can train to be nurses or other medical personnel.

And medicine isn't the only area we could invest in. There are lots of ways we both boost our economy and our standard of living.
2012-11-13 08:42:58 AM  
1 votes:

unexplained bacon: Hey maybe some righty could help me out....

where do you get the idea that Obama is playing to people who want free stuff?
has he made any radical changes to the social safety net that has existed through R and D admins alike?

you all love to assert that Obama won because people want free stuff...explain yourself...

looking at you o5iiawah and randomjsa...any righty will do, let me in on the story.


He thinks Obama created TracFone to steal money from whites to give Obamaphones to minorities.

Of course, everyone I know with one is white, and, you know GWB's presidency started that.
2012-11-13 08:40:30 AM  
1 votes:

BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?


No, owning a phone was not illegal. Connecting an unauthorized phone to the phone system was. Actually, connecting anything to the phone system without authorization could get you in trouble, this included things like answering machines and computer modems. Before AT&T was broken up, if you wanted to connect to the internet (yes, it existed back then), or other computer systems, you needed an "Acoustic coupler". You would put your phone headset into spongy rings that had their own mic/speakers so that all communication would pass through air waves, and thus protect the phone system from any damage your device might cause.

The AT&T was also not a complete monopoly, there were a number of independent phone companies out there. They functioned by the same set of rules though.

The justification for the phone monopoly was that it was too expensive to run many phone lines to every house, so there was a "natural monopoly". This is the same reason why there are still monopolies on things like water/sewer service, cable TV, fire departments, roads, etc.

AT&T didn't start out as a monopoly, it started out with individuals signing contracts like libertarians think everything should be. It wasn't until AT&T grew so large that they had the natural monopoly and started abusing the position that the government stepped in and regulated it.

The idea of "you aren't buying your phone" is very much like the idea of "you aren't buying your DVD/music/software" and "you can't create your own generic medicine". The government is granting monopolies to certain corporations on the belief that such monopolies help society.
2012-11-13 08:34:56 AM  
1 votes:

ChuDogg: The national debt was also about 250 billion in today's dollars.

No, not deficit, total debt.


then the military industrial complex took over. Vietnam,The Cold War,Arms Race etc. It bankrupted the USSR trying to keep up with us and fight in Afghanistan. but hey between that and the Reagan Tax cuts we were well on our way to borrowing our way into a hole. Clinton stabilized it and then along comes Shrub and the neocons. Free money! Free wars! Free medicare part D! Houses for everybody! We'll let the next guy worry about it.
2012-11-13 08:33:22 AM  
1 votes:

brantgoose: When Nixon successfully adopted his "Southern Strategy", which was to win over Southern crackers, racists, and loonies to the Republican party (which was a progressive, educated middle class, Northern party in the days of Lincoln) he took over an ideology which was alien to genuine conservatism and to genuine progress: racism.


Racism exploited by the Republicans? That's preposterous. Let's ask the guy who worked as a campaign strategist to Reagan, both Bushs, and was Karl Rove's mentor - he'll clear things up...

You start out in 1954 by saying, "N*****, n*****, n*****." By 1968 you can't say "n*****" - that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now, you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that.

But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me - because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "N*****, n*****."
2012-11-13 08:29:19 AM  
1 votes:

Kibbler: If some jackass wanted to keep calling you at 2 AM, you could take the phone off the hook.


The best part was that the person on the other end couldn't use his/her phone until you hung up yours. You could periodically go into the room with the phone and hear the faint sound of his/her shouting "Please! Please, hang up! I have to use this phone. I have more calls on my list to make." I wish we could do that today to those telemarketers who call over and over and over again. I'm looking at you ADT security systems.
2012-11-13 08:29:10 AM  
1 votes:

Lunaville: neongoats: Look, they aren't EVER going to let go of the delusion that only white republicans have or want jobs.

I think what annoys me most about that delusion is the sheer number of people with that sort of view who don't have a job. Of course, it's always someone elses' fault: either women are taking the jobs for less pay, or affirmative action is giving all the jobs to "the blacks", or "illegals" are stealing all the jobs. Their unemployed status has nothing at all to do with them.


Yeah, precisely. In this particular delusion they are just temporarily embarrassed Atlases, kept from their righteously deserved riches, and correspondingly righteously deserved praise by the evil immigrants, furriners, turrists, and pantywaist liberals that took away their jerbs.

In actuality they are about as bootstrappy as Ayn Rand was.
2012-11-13 08:27:47 AM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Don't all men still have to register for the draft?

It's called "selective service" now but yeah.

Odd that you don't see too many feminists fighting to get their names on that list. ;)


That's because feminists argue for doing away with the draft entirely.
2012-11-13 08:14:04 AM  
1 votes:

RubberBandMan: Then later the phone company allowed you to "buy" the phone, however they still owned the inside, you owned just the outside.
Of course, they made this clear to the consumer (not)


I remember walking to the At&T facility to buy a phone. They were still, mostly, rotary dial models. The lowest priced model was basic phone that came in black or beige. It was the defend yourself against an intruder style referenced up-thread. I splurged an extra ten dollars on a little red phone that was almost triangle like. It was the most stylish object in my apartment.
2012-11-13 08:11:41 AM  
1 votes:
And, when modems came along, they had to have a documented "ringer-equivalent". You could only connected a limited number of devices to your home phone wiring and those that weren't owned by Ma Bell had to be registered with Ma Bell. There was a reasonable reason for this rule, though. Back in the day, connecting too many devices could create too much draw on the line and phones wouldn't ring if someone called.
2012-11-13 08:08:02 AM  
1 votes:
Heh.

Another thing youngsters don't appreciate is the monopoly that AT&T had on the phone system. It spawned some wonderful satire like "The President's Analyst" and that double episode of "WKRP" with the terrorists. Oh, and of course, Lily Tomlin's "Ernestine" character.
2012-11-13 08:07:59 AM  
1 votes:

neongoats: Look, they aren't EVER going to let go of the delusion that only white republicans have or want jobs.


I think what annoys me most about that delusion is the sheer number of people with that sort of view who don't have a job. Of course, it's always someone elses' fault: either women are taking the jobs for less pay, or affirmative action is giving all the jobs to "the blacks", or "illegals" are stealing all the jobs. Their unemployed status has nothing at all to do with them.
2012-11-13 08:04:47 AM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


You're on Fark throughout the workday. Why aren't you working?
2012-11-13 08:03:50 AM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: Lunaville: Without excusing the violence committed over the years by Iran, we can acknowledge that the United States committed grave offenses against the sovereignty of Iran and against the Iranian people for many decades before factions of that society turned to asshattedness. Perhaps, they should have sought a non-violent means of protesting U.S. interference in their affairs, but their failure to seek a path to peaceful resistance does not negate the role of the USA in our past conflicts.

While true, that wasn't even my point. My point was that in 2001/2002, regardless of our past histories, Iran and the US seemed to be at a good place to make progress towards each other, and Frum's speech, way too clever by far, alienated and positioned Iraq as an enemy when we might have been able to turn things around.


Ah, noted.
2012-11-13 08:02:15 AM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Don't all men still have to register for the draft?

It's called "selective service" now but yeah.

Odd that you don't see too many feminists fighting to get their names on that list. ;)


Unfortunately, there are a few. I've long opposed anyone being required for selective service. I formed my opposition in the nineties. I had this boyfriend that was quite knowledgeable about issues. He was the most truly peaceful person I had met at that time. He didn't just run his mouth about peace; he tried to live and practice what he believed. And he did not vote. Prior to meeting him, I had not realized how our selective service registration requirements tilt our electorate away from peace and toward war.

it is absolute discrimination against men. And it is discrimination against the most peaceful in our population. I repeat, no one should be required to register for the draft.

Our meeting for worship encourages boys to register as conscientious objectors and to proceed with voting, but they are still registered and it strikes me as wrong, wrong, wrong. As a Mom of a boy and a girl, I don't want both my children equitably discriminated against via a co-gender draft. I want draft requirements nixed for both of them. My son is just as valuable to me as my daughter is.

This statement is so long. If I ever go to grad school, I'm going to post my dissertation to FARK. Ha!
2012-11-13 08:01:04 AM  
1 votes:

dittybopper:

*Which they didn't often do, because they were built like a friggin' electronic tank.


yah, again, i think it's just one of those things you either have as a memory, or you missed out - we lived in an era where it was not only easy, but so very tempting to *kill somebody with a telephone*.

and the sonofabiatch would still work after you caved someones skull in with it.


ok, it was babyshiat green, and nobody really missed anything if they don't have that memory, but...i need some kind of salve for the indications that i'm an old fart, and i'll take what i can get.
2012-11-13 07:53:31 AM  
1 votes:
FTA:

"Compare the United States of 2012 to the United States of 1962. Leave aside the obvious points about segregation and discrimination, and look only at the economy."

While the article makes a fair point, this part in particular is what irks me. It would be easy to disregard that little bit of American social behavior of '62 if it weren't still being harped by the fringe of the right to this day.

It's just not PC to do so these days, so they've got to be subtle about it. Instead, you've got to turn the argument around and call those dirty liberals racist for demonizing their culture and placing preference on those damn minorities, what with their ever-growing voices in politics these days.

Whatever, I'm nit-picking a CNN article that actually made an honest attempt at being reasonable. I can at least say I somewhat agree. Nobody voted for socialism, and the commie boogey man isn't coming for anybody's money.

I do think the GOP is slowly becoming irrelevant, though, primarily because of their social stances. It'll take a lot more than reflection for them to regain their footing with the electorate.
2012-11-13 07:51:59 AM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: heap: BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?

i think the memory of the 'bakelight harvest gold/baby-shiat green telephone with the rotary dial and the 500 foot long cord' is one of those indicators of age, kind of like remembering beer cans that had pull tabs.

there was a time when that was the phone you could get, because that's all that was being rented from the phone company - i could be remember it sideways, but i don't think it was a matter of 'owning a phone is illegal' so much as it was illegal for them to be sold - i remember when a phone store opened up in a local mall (right next to the Lowrey Organ, complete with fat housewifes playing ooompa-music) and it being a momentous occasion, at least.
the day the world changed, and you could get a phone shaped like Garfield. Garfield! we didn't get our flying cars, but dammit we got garfield phones.

now if you'll excuse me, my belt onion needs adjusting

mine too.


Hot damn. I remember when the breakup of Ma Bell was a big deal.

....

Goddammit. :-/ I feel old now.
2012-11-13 07:44:43 AM  
1 votes:

clkeagle:
Today's GOP blindly abhors every piece of watered-down conservative legislation that originates from someone with a D in front of their name. Rush Limbaugh's head would explode into thousands of oxycontin-soaked pieces if someone suggested an actual liberal policy. On anything.


it's worse than that even. Ther even abhor legislation that they proposed and spent two decades promoting because someone with a (D) said 'ok, we'll give your way a go'.
2012-11-13 07:40:56 AM  
1 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Don't all men still have to register for the draft?


It's called "selective service" now but yeah.

Odd that you don't see too many feminists fighting to get their names on that list. ;)
2012-11-13 07:36:22 AM  
1 votes:
Don't all men still have to register for the draft?
2012-11-13 07:35:37 AM  
1 votes:
No one should be required to register for the draft. More importantly, draft registry should have no bearing on the ability of a citizen to perform his/her voting duties and no affect on his/her ability to procure education aid.

Also, 91% is high to me and I fall somewhere within a triangle made up of Democrats, non-authoritarian libertarians and the Green party. I do, however, agree that taxes on the richest among us should be increased as well as cutting the defense budget.
2012-11-13 07:28:40 AM  
1 votes:

Generation_D: BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?

Actually, yes. You rented your Western Electric phone when you subscribed from American Telephone and Telegraph. I'm pretty sure the other phone company out in the rural parts of the country did it exactly the same.

In the 1970s the only way to own Western Electric equipment was to buy it off of Bell system employees who were gray-market selling it at HAM radio fests.


Yep and you had to pay a rental fee for each phone in your house every month. That is why homes back then only had one phone in them, and on the rare occasion they had two.
2012-11-13 07:26:29 AM  
1 votes:

Monkeyhouse Zendo: BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

Ma Bell had the monopoly on the telephone system. They owned the phones, they owned the lines, they owned it all. If you had a working telephone, it was either owned by Ma Bell or stolen property. It was an absolute monopoly on our communications infrastructure. That's why you had a running skit on SNL with the punch line "what are you going to do, we're the phone company?".

The break up of Bell Telephone was a huge deal, how did you miss it?


By not being born when it happened would be my guess.
2012-11-13 07:25:50 AM  
1 votes:

BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?


Actually, yes. You rented your Western Electric phone when you subscribed from American Telephone and Telegraph. I'm pretty sure the other phone company out in the rural parts of the country did it exactly the same.

In the 1970s the only way to own Western Electric equipment was to buy it off of Bell system employees who were gray-market selling it at HAM radio fests.
2012-11-13 07:21:08 AM  
1 votes:

BarrRepublican: Owning a telephone was illegal?

/youseriousclark.jpg?


Yes, it was. Ma Bell owned the phone in your house, not you.
2012-11-13 07:21:05 AM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: The president was re-elected by people who want to work -- and who were convinced, rightly or wrongly, that the president's policies were more likely to create work than were the policies advocated by my party.

Let me laugh even harder.


You'll have to laugh pretty loudly to hear yourself over everyone laughing at you.

I'm sure you're used to this by now.
2012-11-13 07:20:09 AM  
1 votes:

I Like Bread: Speaking of which, here's an interesting article I dug up recently.
Were the early 1960s a golden age for healthcare?


This is why Politifact sucks:
As soon as we heard this, we wondered whether his portrayal was accurate. We considered putting his comment to the Truth-O-Meter, but we decided that it was impossible to do so. We couldn't prove a negative -- that "there was nobody out in the street suffering with no medical care" during that era.
That's not attempting to prove a negative. The statement that "nobody suffered from lack of health care" is a testable assertion. All you need to do is find one destitute person who died of a treatable condition or a living person who had no access to health care in that time frame and recalls suffering for it.
2012-11-13 07:15:18 AM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: Did David Frum ever apologize for putting Iran in the axis of evil a few weeks after they offered sympathy and help to us after 9/11?


Because a transparently self-serving gesture totally makes up for 30 years of general asshattedness.
2012-11-13 06:45:54 AM  
1 votes:
Sometimes, the old ways are the best.

upload.wikimedia.org
2012-11-13 01:54:11 AM  
1 votes:
Sounds almost...Communist.
 
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