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(Wikipedia)   Although secession is unconstitutional, the constitution allows for states to split or combine into new states. North and South Florida anyone?   (en.wikipedia.org) divider line 239
    More: Interesting, South Florida, United States, Articles of Confederation, secession, American Revolution, combine, foreign intervention, Zogby International  
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3474 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Nov 2012 at 10:25 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-12 12:13:13 AM
All of this dividing and recombining the states is going to run into a big problem:

Nobody wants Utah or any part of it.

/Except on powder days.
//That means snow, Floridians
 
2012-11-12 12:13:49 AM

cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.


Eh, not really, according to this past election.
 
2012-11-12 12:17:22 AM
Sweet! This could finally be our chance to cut Eastern Washington loose!
 
2012-11-12 12:22:29 AM

Shaggy_C: Wait, since when is secession "unconstitutional"? That doesn't even make sense. It's anti-constitutional, sure, but the document isn't a suicide pact.


Ha. Ha. Ha.

/Might not be a suicide pact in reality, but I doubt anyone gives a fark.
 
2012-11-12 12:23:14 AM

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


Why would you split alaska in two it is one of the least populous states? Heck even South Dakota is bigger then it by population...
 
2012-11-12 12:24:10 AM
Yeah, I can't exactly leave MS if they wanted to leave and become part of Jesusland, so I'm definitely not cool with this...
 
2012-11-12 12:25:57 AM

punkwrestler: CmndrFish: cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.

As a Milwaukeean, fark this noise to hell and back.

Also splitting Wisconsin seems kind of silly. For equality in the Senate, all of the states would be roughly the size of what Wisconsin is currently.

Honestly if we're actually going to try and solve this problem, I'd propose the Swiss solution. Their upper house is proportioned the same way ours is (set number of representatives for each canton), but extremely small cantons, the Dakotas and Wyomings of Switzerland, are classified as "half cantons" and only get one representative in the upper house.

I'd be quite alright if Wyoming, Delaware, etc. only had one senator and California, Texas, and New York had 3.

That defeats the whole purpose of the Senate, which is that every state be represented equally. We already have the house for proportional representation.


The set representation per state (hardly equal, if you ask me) was nothing more than a compromise to get the tiny little states to ratify the Constitution. In today's America, states don't really think of themselves as almost-sovereign entities like they did back then.

To me, your point is just another reason that we really need to revisit the longest operating written constitution on the planet. It shows its age in many ways.
 
2012-11-12 12:26:40 AM
Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.
 
2012-11-12 12:29:23 AM

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


You'd need to split Alaska a different way. Go top to bottom and let Anchorage have the left side. Leave Juneau and Fairbanks on the right side. Better yet, just sell Juneau to Canada.
 
2012-11-12 12:29:51 AM
Oh people brought up West Virginia, which is funny because it was formed from two secessions. Virginia seceded from the US and then West Virginia seceded from Virginia and joined the US.
 
2012-11-12 12:33:29 AM

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


A Republican in New Jersey or Massachusets is a whole lot different than a Republican from Texas or Kansas
 
2012-11-12 12:33:38 AM

Mrtraveler01: Hunter_Worthington: That's a feature, not a bug.

Gerrymandering is a feature and not a bug?

How much spray paint did you huff before coming to that conclusion?


No shiat. Children even GET that the electoral college is unfair when the principle is used in social research experiments (e.g., the class votes to use crayons to color vs. pencils). I'd like to hear his rationale on why having a 1:110,000 EV:population for WY is fair to someone who lives in CA where their ratio is nearly 1:450,000.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:18 AM

jigger: Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.


Learn yourself something.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:20 AM

Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do


WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.
 
2012-11-12 12:36:11 AM
Gyrfalcon 2012-11-11 10:32:57 PM


Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

So Cal, No Cal, and Cal Worthington and his dog Spot.


HAAHH!! XD
 
2012-11-12 12:36:42 AM

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


You mean that whole Red/Blue thing is a myth? What?

But...but....but...
 
2012-11-12 12:41:40 AM

vegasj: Does that matter?

Our Government doesn't about the constitution anymore


Ad you accidentally the whole bottle.
 
2012-11-12 12:42:50 AM

punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.


I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.
 
2012-11-12 12:47:06 AM

KatjaMouse: punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.

I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.


On the other hand, that would mean Mr. Macaca would actually be a sitting Senator...
 
2012-11-12 12:48:58 AM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.


Meh.

Should have petitioned for something cool like FEMA re-education camps for all registered Republicans. You know, something we could all get behind.
 
2012-11-12 12:49:23 AM

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.


I don't think you can ignore them while also publicly laughing at them. Those two ideas seems mutually exclusive.
 
2012-11-12 12:49:54 AM
I'd like to finally get an Ohio/South Ohio split so that we could stop being associated with those inbred hilljacks living south of I-70.
 
2012-11-12 12:50:22 AM

heap: i seceded from my cul-de-sac, and will be appointing housepets as senators.


And those house pets would be a far cry better than what California has for representatives now.
/votes for heap house pets for Senator!
 
2012-11-12 12:54:31 AM
Oh yes, Florida. Where the further South you go, the more Northern you get.

/credit to CNN contributor
/think it was Paul Begala
 
2012-11-12 12:59:38 AM

Hobo Jr.: I have always thought that California and Texas should be split and Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas should be combined. Maybe Idaho and and Nevada combine. Then make Guam and the Virgin Islands into states.


Splitting California North/South would make no difference. The San Fransisco and Los Angeles liberals would still control everything, nothing would change.
 
2012-11-12 01:04:23 AM

Anonymocoso: All of this dividing and recombining the states is going to run into a big problem:

Nobody wants Utah or any part of it.

/Except on powder days.
//That means snow, Floridians


That's not entirely true, they also have Zion and Bryce. And Zion has some wicked slick-rock mountain biking.
Also polygamy porter. Not to mention how fun it is to run up to the top of Angel's landing. So, there is more than just powder. But I'll grant you their only redeeming features involve things they were fortunate enough to have in their state, nothing THEY have done makes them desired.
 
2012-11-12 01:09:57 AM

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


Except that the Presidential vote would suddenly become dependent upon gerrymandered districts.
 
2012-11-12 01:10:19 AM

abb3w: An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


Whatever treaties the Republic of Texas might have made when they joined the union were voided when they seceded. No such promises were made when they re-joined.
 
2012-11-12 01:13:12 AM

ArmednHammered: Hobo Jr.: I have always thought that California and Texas should be split and Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas should be combined. Maybe Idaho and and Nevada combine. Then make Guam and the Virgin Islands into states.

Splitting California North/South would make no difference. The San Fransisco and Los Angeles liberals would still control everything, nothing would change.


What if CA was split above Marin? A true North/South split into urban and rural CA? And So Cal was split up E/W? You would end up with a Nor Cal whose interests are wildly different than those of So Cal.

SF, LA, OC and SD all have fairly similar interests and represent a logical grouping. The central valley (where all of our food is grown) has vastly different interests and goals from both Nor Cal and West So Cal, and should be represented uniquely too. I agree A split that separates LA and SF makes no sense whatsoever.
 
2012-11-12 01:14:07 AM

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.

Learn yourself something.


I've seen it.

Doesn't mean that secession is unconstitutional.

It's utterly ridiculous to rely on the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States, ie the government of the US, right after the Civil War, to determine the legality of secession from the US.

Also, look at Chase's argument. When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok. Then he says that those same states ratified the new Constitution that said it was in order to more a "more perfect" union. Well, that can mean whatever you want. To Chase it meant that it was even stronger than perpetual, I guess. Or it can mean one where states can secede at will. Or, again, whatever you decide is more perfect.

Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.
 
2012-11-12 01:14:41 AM

homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!


States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)
 
2012-11-12 01:18:29 AM
The easiest solution remains having electoral college votes being decided by popular vote within the state. At any given time every state will have between 1 and 3 electoral votes (in a state like California you are talking about shifting polls about 6 points in order to flip 3 electoral votes, as of now we have a pretty darn good idea how states will vote within about a 6 point margin hence 1-3 EV in play). This would mean that every state matters just as much as every other state.

Advantage over both the EV and the popular vote system. It puts the power back to the people while eliminating campaigning in "swing states" (for the current EV system) or high population areas (popular vote system).


For the house. Each party has a pool of candidates. People vote for party. Party gets to puts in candidates to the number of slots they have. No gerrymandering, representation is decided by popular vote within a state. Fair representation of people.



The catch you would have to convince both the Democratic and Republican parties, to choose a system that would open the door for 3rd party candidates (not necessarily in presidential elections but for representation in the house for sure.
 
2012-11-12 01:19:48 AM

pciszek: homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!

States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)


Well, West Virginia was admitted into the Union after it seceded from Virginia, which had just seceded from the Union.
 
2012-11-12 01:22:12 AM

jigger: When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok.


I'm fairly certain that Denver's 'disturbing the peace' ordinance precedes my birth. I didn't sign that shiat.

/subwoofer plugged in - ready to rock
 
2012-11-12 01:22:18 AM

Lligeret: For the house. Each party has a pool of candidates. People vote for party. Party gets to puts in candidates to the number of slots they have. No gerrymandering, representation is decided by popular vote within a state. Fair representation of people.


well... maybe, except then candidates aren't tied to any actual districts. So the interests of different areas might never get represented.

The current gerrymandered system is awful though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mky11UJb9AY
 
2012-11-12 01:22:53 AM

tomasso: Kansas and Nebraska


Fark you, I'm scared enough of the crazies in Kansas as it is without having to live under a government partially elected by them.

/Used to think Nebraska was a "respectable" red state, but even that's slipping these days...
 
2012-11-12 01:25:17 AM
i.imgur.com

It'd be better for all of us! Know why Ohio is a swing state? Because of the mix or rural southern voters and liberal northern voters. If we're suddenly separate states, then our election outcomes are pretty much predetermined and Presidential candidates won't care about us anymore. I WANT TO LIVE IN AN OHIO WITHOUT CAMPAIGN ADS.
 
2012-11-12 01:25:38 AM

jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.


Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?
 
2012-11-12 01:29:11 AM

AliceBToklasLives: jigger: When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok.

I'm fairly certain that Denver's 'disturbing the peace' ordinance precedes my birth. I didn't sign that shiat.

/subwoofer plugged in - ready to rock


So the Articles of Confederation were in effect in 1845?

And anyway, you're not a sovereign state. You're a serf. You can be born into subjugation.
 
2012-11-12 01:33:13 AM

Lionel Mandrake: Long live Jefferson State!


The western states really do need to be redrawn.

Western Washington (Bellingham to Vancouver)
Western Oregon (Portland to Roseberg)
SE Oregon + Northern Cali (Grants Pass to Red Bluff)
North-Central Cali (Chico to Merced)
SF Bay Area (Santa Rosa to Los Gatos to west of the Berkeley Hills and San Leandro Hills)
Central Cali (Fresno to Bakersfield)
LA Area (Santa Barbara to Cabazon to San Clemente)
Southern Cali

Eastern Washington + Idaho Panhandle
Eastern Oregon + Southern Idaho
 
2012-11-12 01:34:19 AM

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.

Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?


It's not settled? The constitution does not prohibit secession but it does reserve power to the states unless that power is expressly delegated to the US.

If you want to bring up the Articles of Confederation, that thing says that states are sovereign and retain all sovereignty.
 
2012-11-12 01:43:48 AM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.


because clearly we'd all benefit from Texas having electoral and senate representation in the 10^6 numerical scale.

Obviously, Texas being able to auto-pass shiat in the senate and elect the US president on its own will only benefit everyone.

//Texan.
 
2012-11-12 01:46:26 AM

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.

Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?


Bevets.
 
2012-11-12 01:46:54 AM
I'm waiting for some troll to submit to SC legislature a petition to change the state name to 'Carolina'.
 
2012-11-12 01:47:29 AM

Snarfangel: Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

Four states. Jefferson (everything north of Tahoe, about 39 North), SoCal (everything south of the Tehachapi Mountains, or 35 North), Pacifica (west of I-5) and Valley (East of I-5).

/actually, the border between Pacifica and Valley could parallel I-5 rather than be exactly on it, I just used that since it's pretty obvious on the map.


I'm down with that if we get to rename SoCal as either Aztlan or Calafia....and you guys keep selling us water.
 
2012-11-12 01:52:44 AM

Bonzo_1116: I'm down with that if we get to rename SoCal as either Aztlan


No.

We know what you're up to.
 
2012-11-12 01:53:19 AM

cptjeff: KatjaMouse: punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.

I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.

On the other hand, that would mean Mr. Macaca would actually be a sitting Senator...


Maybe, but I'm waiting to hear who the Democrats will run for Governor next year against Attorney General Vaginal Probe....
 
2012-11-12 01:53:21 AM
Just give the Florida panhandle to Alabama and Jacksonville to Georgia and be done with it.
 
2012-11-12 01:55:02 AM

pciszek: homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!

States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)



My point was not that it cannot happen or that it never has happened. I was commenting that a wikipedia article is a bit thin as justification for a post....or the breakup of the country.

A more focused search. (google) 
 
2012-11-12 01:55:44 AM
There is nothing unconstitutional about secession and you aren't bound by the US Constitution once you secede anyway. If you can't withdraw from a union, then you are a slave.

If there had been only a few free states 150 years ago and they had no chance to win a war against the slave states, they could have seceded and combined into a new free nation or individual free nation states. Who wouldn't support that decision?
 
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