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(Wikipedia)   Although secession is unconstitutional, the constitution allows for states to split or combine into new states. North and South Florida anyone?   (en.wikipedia.org) divider line 239
    More: Interesting, South Florida, United States, Articles of Confederation, secession, American Revolution, combine, foreign intervention, Zogby International  
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3475 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Nov 2012 at 10:25 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-11 04:48:37 PM  
I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.
 
2012-11-11 05:03:23 PM  

abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.


I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.
 
2012-11-11 06:25:49 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.


An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.
 
2012-11-11 06:42:25 PM  
North/South Florida?

Cutting Florida in half?

So.. the Bobbitt amendment?

/Yeah, not proud of that one.
 
2012-11-11 06:43:10 PM  
Clearly we need to do whatever is most beneficial to the Republican party.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-11 07:03:05 PM  
I have wondered about this.

You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.
 
2012-11-11 07:09:22 PM  
Wikipedia? Well, ok I guess.

I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!

An entire legion of US Constitutional Law professionals thank you subby.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-11 07:12:31 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.


Each of which would be entitled to two senators, regardless of how small it's population?
 
2012-11-11 07:23:17 PM  
Leaving the union is constitutional.

The CSA just did it wrong, like everything else they ever did except cuisine and women.
 
2012-11-11 07:28:56 PM  
I have a better idea:

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-11 07:29:23 PM  

abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.


Nah, just split Alaska in half, so Texas becomes the 3rd biggest state.
 
2012-11-11 07:38:02 PM  

quatchi: North/South Florida?

Cutting Florida in half?

So.. the Bobbitt amendment?

/Yeah, not proud of that one.


you shouldn't be.

/I loled
 
2012-11-11 09:50:51 PM  

vpb: Each of which would be entitled to two senators, regardless of how small its population?


Aye, there's the rub. Still, silly states like Wyoming have two senators, don't they? Pretty much every person in Wyoming IS a senator, and that's less logical than having two senators for the metro Houston area which, with ten times as many people as the entire state of Wyoming, would STILL be proportionately underrepresented in the senate.

There is precedent to create new states from the splitting of existing states. Maine was born when God took a rib from Massachusetts. Same with West Virginia and Virginia. (And other examples which should or should not be included.) I think, however, that the United States needs to avoid balkanization. The only fair way to reapportion would be to create 50 new governing units of approximately equal size. In other words, if you are going to give Houston two senators, which would be fair, you would also have to combine some silly states into one.

For example:

Wyoming, Montana, the Dakotas and Idaho would be combined to form one real state instead of five silly ones.

Same with Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire

Rhode Island and Connecticut

Kansas and Nebraska

And so forth

Let's face it, none of this will ever happen, for many, many reasons, so it might be beneficial for us to learn to live and work united, as specified in the country's name.
 
2012-11-11 10:01:50 PM  
Texas out, Puerto Rico in. Money saved by keeping the flag the same.
 
2012-11-11 10:14:39 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Texas out, Puerto Rico in. Money saved by keeping the flag the same.


Sold!
 
2012-11-11 10:20:03 PM  
Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks
 
2012-11-11 10:28:31 PM  
Repubicans suffering from incredible butthurt.l
 
2012-11-11 10:29:56 PM  
That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.
 
2012-11-11 10:31:29 PM  
California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.
 
2012-11-11 10:32:57 PM  

Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.


So Cal, No Cal, and Cal Worthington and his dog Spot.
 
2012-11-11 10:33:02 PM  
north and south Florida, north and south California, Manhattan and it's immediate area and upstate new york, and then a special area in far west tx for governor hair and his friends
 
2012-11-11 10:33:20 PM  
I'll just leave this here...

www.perno.com
 
2012-11-11 10:34:00 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


Gerrymandering FTW!
 
2012-11-11 10:34:22 PM  
Uh, how about Central Florida and North/South Florida? We're the least psychotic part of the state. I said least, so still rather psychotic.
 
2012-11-11 10:34:23 PM  
Or we could take the far more straight forward approach and use a direct election.
 
2012-11-11 10:34:59 PM  

urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks


Then how would we tell who was a Johnny Reb and who was a damn Yankee Carpetbagger?
 
2012-11-11 10:35:31 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.


This is perhaps the worst idea I've ever heard.

It'll just give politicians even more incentive to gerrymander districts.
 
2012-11-11 10:35:58 PM  
Punt and start over:

www.marksettle.com
 
2012-11-11 10:36:02 PM  

one small post for man: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Then how would we tell who was a Johnny Reb and who was a damn Yankee Carpetbagger?


i'm sure it was noted on the gravestones, assuming they weren't moved but damnit you didn't move the bodies
 
2012-11-11 10:36:05 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


Your idea has some promise, until you consider gerrymandering.
 
2012-11-11 10:36:49 PM  
fark it...let's start from scratch.

Long live Jefferson State!

upload.wikimedia.org
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com 

Unfortunately, it'd be a Republican state.

/never mind
 
2012-11-11 10:37:04 PM  

Vangor: Uh, how about Central Florida and North/South Florida? We're the least psychotic part of the state. I said least, so still rather psychotic.


I think it should be split down the middle, with I-4 as the boundary. 

I would have to get a really really good job to have any incentive to live north of I-4 in Florida.
 
2012-11-11 10:37:08 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

Gerrymandering FTW!


Well, yeah, spread that to Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and a few others, yeah. That's it exactly.
 
2012-11-11 10:38:57 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

Gerrymandering FTW!

Well, yeah, spread that to Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and a few others, yeah. That's it exactly.


Why do you want to give politicians more incentive to gerrymander their districts?

Because it will help the GOP win?
 
2012-11-11 10:39:03 PM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


Wait, what? Is there some background to that image I'm not aware of?
 
2012-11-11 10:40:54 PM  
Wait, since when is secession "unconstitutional"? That doesn't even make sense. It's anti-constitutional, sure, but the document isn't a suicide pact.
 
2012-11-11 10:41:45 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Hunter_Worthington: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

Gerrymandering FTW!

Well, yeah, spread that to Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and a few others, yeah. That's it exactly.

Why do you want to give politicians more incentive to gerrymander their districts?

Because it will help the GOP win?


That would be one benefit, yes. The others would be to limit the "madness of the masses", reinforce the federal organization of the nation, and help give the states more say in the direction of the Federal Government.
 
2012-11-11 10:42:01 PM  
An interesting idea, but the state legislatures have to agree to a new state created from part of a current state.

Article 4, Sec. 3:

[N]o new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

I can't imagine the state legislature of Florida voting to split itself.
 
2012-11-11 10:43:23 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be one benefit, yes. The others would be to limit the "madness of the masses", reinforce the federal organization of the nation, and help give the states more say in the direction of the Federal Government.


You think that's what it would do? Really?

i2.kym-cdn.com 

/that's adorable
 
2012-11-11 10:45:40 PM  

abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.


That would give them 10 senators and 8 more electorial votes.
 
2012-11-11 10:47:22 PM  
Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.
 
2012-11-11 10:49:24 PM  

Kevin72: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

That would give them 10 senators and 8 more electorial votes.


At least three of those five new states would be blue.
 
2012-11-11 10:50:09 PM  
i seceded from my cul-de-sac, and will be appointing housepets as senators.
 
2012-11-11 10:52:33 PM  
Republicans should br thinking long and hard over the fact that they can no longer be expected to win any national elections without resorting to dirty tricks, schemes to prevent people from voting, and gerrymandering to the point of blatant racism (they would not have won the house this time around without gerrymandering)
Perhaps it is time to come up with a new platform and set of ideas that people, you know, like? You can't disenfranchise your way to victory forever. This election should have made that clear.
 
2012-11-11 10:54:10 PM  

tomasso: Same with Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire


Wouldn't combining New Hampshire and Vermont be like oil and water? Who has the bigger population? That state would win out, but either way the Vermont Democrats and the NH Republican would both have to move to the center.
 
2012-11-11 10:55:10 PM  
Sounds like a clusterfark of massive proportions to me.
 
2012-11-11 10:55:19 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.


Where will you get enough senators?
 
2012-11-11 10:56:09 PM  

abb3w: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.

An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


I have passing familiarity with this situation because I portrayed a Texan militant secessionist, Richard Keyes on I Almost Got Away With It. There is a (I suppose) trivial segment of Texas' population that believe they were never a part of the US because of their treaty of (what, 1854?) and that the US has been illegally occupying their state(nation) since. They really believe that they can and should leave ASAP.

\I have nothing of value to add to this conversation, I'm just proud of having had the lead role for an episode of that show.
 
2012-11-11 10:56:38 PM  
I've lived here for a long time and splitting the state into 2 isn't going to help.
 
2012-11-11 11:00:10 PM  
It's the law that we should rejoin the British Empire. Let's do it before we get arrested.
 
2012-11-11 11:00:31 PM  
The Republicans are a T-1000.

www.opheliaimmune.comimages.wikia.com
 
2012-11-11 11:00:51 PM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


I'm really confused why the state of Dearborn doesn't actually include Dearborn, Michigan.

Other than that, yeah, "Superior" got a shout-out!

/If the adorably grizzled plaid wearing bearded rapscallion hermits in the UP haven't been able to secede from the lazy trolls in the LP who didn't even fight a real war with Ohio to get the UP in the first place (did I piss off all Michiganders yet?), I doubt North/South Florida would ever happen
 
2012-11-11 11:01:52 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Because it will help the GOP win?


It is the only thing that matters. Not improving the party, not introducing better ideas to actually help the entire country.

No, change everything just to win. Winning is THE main goal in the GOP, apparently.
 
2012-11-11 11:03:32 PM  

I_Hate_Iowa: tomasso: Same with Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire

Wouldn't combining New Hampshire and Vermont be like oil and water? Who has the bigger population?


Maine
 
2012-11-11 11:03:41 PM  
Can we cut Douglas county out of Kansas and make it a state?
 
2012-11-11 11:05:08 PM  

NeverDrunk23: Mrtraveler01: Because it will help the GOP win?

It is the only thing that matters. Not improving the party, not introducing better ideas to actually help the entire country.

No, change everything just to win. Winning is THE main goal in the GOP, apparently.


Close - Winning NOW is the main GOP goal. Otherwise, why work so hard to piss off America's fastest growing demographic?

/+Muslims, who -- all things being equal -- are natural Republicans
 
2012-11-11 11:06:38 PM  

beantowndog: I_Hate_Iowa: tomasso: Same with Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire

Wouldn't combining New Hampshire and Vermont be like oil and water? Who has the bigger population?

Maine


I'll be damned. I thought for sure Maine'd be emptier than that. Or I guess I'm also overestimating VT and NH's population density too.
 
2012-11-11 11:06:41 PM  

Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.


Four states. Jefferson (everything north of Tahoe, about 39 North), SoCal (everything south of the Tehachapi Mountains, or 35 North), Pacifica (west of I-5) and Valley (East of I-5).

/actually, the border between Pacifica and Valley could parallel I-5 rather than be exactly on it, I just used that since it's pretty obvious on the map.
 
2012-11-11 11:10:42 PM  

cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.


As a Milwaukeean, fark this noise to hell and back.

Also splitting Wisconsin seems kind of silly. For equality in the Senate, all of the states would be roughly the size of what Wisconsin is currently.

Honestly if we're actually going to try and solve this problem, I'd propose the Swiss solution. Their upper house is proportioned the same way ours is (set number of representatives for each canton), but extremely small cantons, the Dakotas and Wyomings of Switzerland, are classified as "half cantons" and only get one representative in the upper house.

I'd be quite alright if Wyoming, Delaware, etc. only had one senator and California, Texas, and New York had 3.
 
2012-11-11 11:10:58 PM  

one small post for man: Can we cut Douglas county out of Kansas and make it a state?


Don't leave Shawnee behind! Please?
 
2012-11-11 11:12:47 PM  
Lol sure are a lot of people talking about secession.
 
2012-11-11 11:15:49 PM  

vpb: I have wondered about this.

You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.


What about California? We have 40 times the population of certain states but the same 2 senators. And NO say in presidential elections, not in the primaries, not one advertisement. I have to watch Rachel Maddow to see the Ohio tank commercial as a metacommercial.
 
2012-11-11 11:16:23 PM  

vpb: You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.


No. North and South Dakota have three electoral votes each. As the Great State of Unified Dakota, they'd have...three. Four at the most.

The Electoral College magnifies the importance of small states for exactly the same reason that the Senate does. This is why, except for Virginia/West Virginia in the chaos of the Civil War, no state has ever been split up. No other state wants to see their own power diluted like that. And it's why there will never be Unified Dakota--they'd be throwing away two Senators and a Representative for nothing.
 
2012-11-11 11:18:25 PM  
Considering haw partisan we have become, most northerners did not like being lead by Bush, most southerners don't like being lead by Obama. I think the time is coming for a northern US and a southern US.

Free trade and movement would remain. The Northern US would have a more liberal government the Southern gov would be more conservative.

everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier
 
2012-11-11 11:19:13 PM  
What is it with these retarded maps where they carefully avoid using any existing state boundaries or names? I mean, that one was so frustrated they renamed Hawaii and probably wished they could combine a couple of its islands with Guam but realized that would be exposing their trollary a bit too much. Just go back to playing RPGs already.

We live in a passive-aggressive world. We can't even get shiat like Quebec or Washington D.C. sorted out, forget totally redrawing a map and giving it dumbass names.
 
2012-11-11 11:20:42 PM  
As someone living in the Northeast, I'm becoming more and more okay with talk of state's rights. Why should some Tea Party congressmen from Alabama stop me from joining the rest of the first world?

/the northeast becoming its own country is a secret fantasy of mine.
 
2012-11-11 11:22:15 PM  

abb3w: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.

An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


It's already been done.

i16.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-11 11:22:16 PM  

pxsteel: Considering haw partisan we have become, most northerners did not like being lead by Bush, most southerners don't like being lead by Obama. I think the time is coming for a northern US and a southern US.

Free trade and movement would remain. The Northern US would have a more liberal government the Southern gov would be more conservative.

everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier


I could have saved myself a post and just said "this".
 
2012-11-11 11:22:59 PM  

quatchi: North/South Florida?

Cutting Florida in half?

So.. the Bobbitt amendment?

/Yeah, not proud of that one.


The Xanth Amendment.
 
2012-11-11 11:23:04 PM  

pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier


Or not.

www.kryogenix.org
 
2012-11-11 11:24:08 PM  
Where's the double FLORIDA tag subby?
 
2012-11-11 11:26:10 PM  
I support a two-state solution; America and Jesusland
 
2012-11-11 11:27:01 PM  
I have always thought that California and Texas should be split and Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas should be combined. Maybe Idaho and and Nevada combine. Then make Guam and the Virgin Islands into states.
 
2012-11-11 11:29:18 PM  
As I recall, there actually was a plan long, long ago to create Florida as two states - East and West Florida. It didn't pan out, I think because "West Florida" would only be connected to "East Florida" and thus have all land routes and trade dependent upon them, so to settle the matter, they just made it one state.

//Peninsular problems.
 
2012-11-11 11:33:40 PM  

lawsucks: Repubicans suffering from incredible butthurt.l


Check this out.

I'm thinking of signing all of them and getting everyone else to as well, so I can soak in the schadenfreude when they realise Obama is just going to ignore their retardation.
 
2012-11-11 11:36:14 PM  

MithrandirBooga: lawsucks: Repubicans suffering from incredible butthurt.l

Check this out.

I'm thinking of signing all of them and getting everyone else to as well, so I can soak in the schadenfreude when they realise Obama is just going to ignore their retardation.


It is a trick to get you to sign up on whitehouse.gov! Wake up sheeple!
 
2012-11-11 11:37:39 PM  

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


Thanks. That was easy on the eyes.
 
2012-11-11 11:39:31 PM  

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


Dear Northern US. The Southern US would be be happy to trade So Cal, Nev and Col for the flyover states.
 
2012-11-11 11:42:58 PM  

MithrandirBooga: lawsucks: Repubicans suffering from incredible butthurt.l

Check this out.

I'm thinking of signing all of them and getting everyone else to as well, so I can soak in the schadenfreude when they realise Obama is just going to ignore their retardation.


Oh look:

Peacefully grant the State of Missouri to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government
right next to it
Peacefully grant the State of Missouri to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government

Those fu(king retards are gonna ruin the site for the rest of us.
 
2012-11-11 11:43:53 PM  
Too late.

www.graphicsoptimization.com
 
2012-11-11 11:44:56 PM  

doyner: Clearly we need to do whatever is most beneficial to the Republican party.


Hang all Democrats?
 
2012-11-11 11:45:20 PM  

MisterTweak: Too late.

[www.graphicsoptimization.com image 440x600]

 


I can see Russia from New York!
 
2012-11-11 11:46:03 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: Those fu(king retards are gonna ruin the site for the rest of us.


But wait there's more!

The State of South Carolina to Secede from the Union and form it's own Government as a Sovereign State
and then
Peacefully grant the State of S.C. to withdraw from the United States of America and create its own NEW government.

I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do
 
2012-11-11 11:48:17 PM  
Does that matter?

Our Government doesn't about the constitution anymore
 
2012-11-11 11:48:29 PM  

urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks


Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.
 
2012-11-11 11:48:56 PM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


There is no way in any deities name you could make michigan natives take Toledo.
 
2012-11-11 11:49:34 PM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


Eff you I ain't living under some Northies rule or traveling all the way to friggin Bismark when I want to yell at my Rep.
 
2012-11-11 11:52:59 PM  

Shaggy_C: Wait, since when is secession "unconstitutional"? ThatT doesn't even make sense. It's anti-constitutional, sure, but the document isn't a suicide pact.


Texas v. White
 
2012-11-11 11:53:27 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


Obama won more votes than Romney in Ohio. If Ohio apportioned its delegates in the way Nebraska does, with a vote going to the winner of each congressional district and 2 to the statewide winner, Obama would have lost Ohio something like 12-6 despite taking more votes overall.
 
2012-11-11 11:54:39 PM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


The trouble with that is not all house districts are created equal. IN VA there is a difference of 600,000 people between the most populated district and the least populated district.
 
2012-11-11 11:57:02 PM  

tarkus1980: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

Obama won more votes than Romney in Ohio. If Ohio apportioned its delegates in the way Nebraska does, with a vote going to the winner of each congressional district and 2 to the statewide winner, Obama would have lost Ohio something like 12-6 despite taking more votes overall.


And if they did it the way a normal state does, the GOP would have ran the table.

punkwrestler: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

The trouble with that is not all house districts are created equal. IN VA there is a difference of 600,000 people between the most populated district and the least populated district.


That's a feature, not a bug.
 
2012-11-12 12:01:25 AM  
We could just get rid of the electoral college. It doesnt seem fair that the two largest cities in Kentucky go blue yet the rest of the state can drown them out.

I like living in this beautiful state, I just hate the republicans in it.
 
2012-11-12 12:03:09 AM  

abb3w: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.

An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


Already happened.

www.modularbuildingassociates.com
 
2012-11-12 12:03:41 AM  
thepeoplespdx.com
 
2012-11-12 12:05:27 AM  

Hunter_Worthington: That's a feature, not a bug.


Gerrymandering is a feature and not a bug?

How much spray paint did you huff before coming to that conclusion?
 
2012-11-12 12:10:21 AM  

doyner: Clearly we need to do whatever is most beneficial to the Republican party.


This! It's about time someone on this internet message discussion reading board figured this out. Democracy and liberty are only as good as the number of Republicans that are in power.
 
2012-11-12 12:10:54 AM  

Lost Thought 00: Or we could take the far more straight forward approach and use a direct election.


I'm all for getting rid of the Electoral College.

But that doesn't help people channel their butthurt the way talking secession does.
 
2012-11-12 12:12:16 AM  

PC LOAD LETTER: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

Nah, just split Alaska in half, so Texas becomes the 3rd biggest state.


Apply cool water directly to the burned area (Texas).
 
2012-11-12 12:12:33 AM  
The great state of Alabama, home of Nick Saban, racist tweets, racists and rocket scientists, would happily welcome her new citizens living in Pensacola, Panama City, Bonifay and associated regions.
 
2012-11-12 12:12:47 AM  

CmndrFish: cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.

As a Milwaukeean, fark this noise to hell and back.

Also splitting Wisconsin seems kind of silly. For equality in the Senate, all of the states would be roughly the size of what Wisconsin is currently.

Honestly if we're actually going to try and solve this problem, I'd propose the Swiss solution. Their upper house is proportioned the same way ours is (set number of representatives for each canton), but extremely small cantons, the Dakotas and Wyomings of Switzerland, are classified as "half cantons" and only get one representative in the upper house.

I'd be quite alright if Wyoming, Delaware, etc. only had one senator and California, Texas, and New York had 3.


That defeats the whole purpose of the Senate, which is that every state be represented equally. We already have the house for proportional representation.
 
2012-11-12 12:13:13 AM  
All of this dividing and recombining the states is going to run into a big problem:

Nobody wants Utah or any part of it.

/Except on powder days.
//That means snow, Floridians
 
2012-11-12 12:13:49 AM  

cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.


Eh, not really, according to this past election.
 
2012-11-12 12:17:22 AM  
Sweet! This could finally be our chance to cut Eastern Washington loose!
 
2012-11-12 12:22:29 AM  

Shaggy_C: Wait, since when is secession "unconstitutional"? That doesn't even make sense. It's anti-constitutional, sure, but the document isn't a suicide pact.


Ha. Ha. Ha.

/Might not be a suicide pact in reality, but I doubt anyone gives a fark.
 
2012-11-12 12:23:14 AM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


Why would you split alaska in two it is one of the least populous states? Heck even South Dakota is bigger then it by population...
 
2012-11-12 12:24:10 AM  
Yeah, I can't exactly leave MS if they wanted to leave and become part of Jesusland, so I'm definitely not cool with this...
 
2012-11-12 12:25:57 AM  

punkwrestler: CmndrFish: cmb53208: Wisconsin could probably be split right down the middle leaving a western half which would be predominately Democrat, with the eastern half being predominately Republican.

As a Milwaukeean, fark this noise to hell and back.

Also splitting Wisconsin seems kind of silly. For equality in the Senate, all of the states would be roughly the size of what Wisconsin is currently.

Honestly if we're actually going to try and solve this problem, I'd propose the Swiss solution. Their upper house is proportioned the same way ours is (set number of representatives for each canton), but extremely small cantons, the Dakotas and Wyomings of Switzerland, are classified as "half cantons" and only get one representative in the upper house.

I'd be quite alright if Wyoming, Delaware, etc. only had one senator and California, Texas, and New York had 3.

That defeats the whole purpose of the Senate, which is that every state be represented equally. We already have the house for proportional representation.


The set representation per state (hardly equal, if you ask me) was nothing more than a compromise to get the tiny little states to ratify the Constitution. In today's America, states don't really think of themselves as almost-sovereign entities like they did back then.

To me, your point is just another reason that we really need to revisit the longest operating written constitution on the planet. It shows its age in many ways.
 
2012-11-12 12:26:40 AM  
Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.
 
2012-11-12 12:29:23 AM  

theorellior: I'll just leave this here...

[www.perno.com image 800x618]


You'd need to split Alaska a different way. Go top to bottom and let Anchorage have the left side. Leave Juneau and Fairbanks on the right side. Better yet, just sell Juneau to Canada.
 
2012-11-12 12:29:51 AM  
Oh people brought up West Virginia, which is funny because it was formed from two secessions. Virginia seceded from the US and then West Virginia seceded from Virginia and joined the US.
 
2012-11-12 12:33:29 AM  

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


A Republican in New Jersey or Massachusets is a whole lot different than a Republican from Texas or Kansas
 
2012-11-12 12:33:38 AM  

Mrtraveler01: Hunter_Worthington: That's a feature, not a bug.

Gerrymandering is a feature and not a bug?

How much spray paint did you huff before coming to that conclusion?


No shiat. Children even GET that the electoral college is unfair when the principle is used in social research experiments (e.g., the class votes to use crayons to color vs. pencils). I'd like to hear his rationale on why having a 1:110,000 EV:population for WY is fair to someone who lives in CA where their ratio is nearly 1:450,000.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:18 AM  

jigger: Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.


Learn yourself something.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:20 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do


WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.
 
2012-11-12 12:36:11 AM  
Gyrfalcon 2012-11-11 10:32:57 PM


Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

So Cal, No Cal, and Cal Worthington and his dog Spot.


HAAHH!! XD
 
2012-11-12 12:36:42 AM  

LordOfThePings: pxsteel: everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier

Or not.

[www.kryogenix.org image 500x309]


You mean that whole Red/Blue thing is a myth? What?

But...but....but...
 
2012-11-12 12:41:40 AM  

vegasj: Does that matter?

Our Government doesn't about the constitution anymore


Ad you accidentally the whole bottle.
 
2012-11-12 12:42:50 AM  

punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.


I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.
 
2012-11-12 12:47:06 AM  

KatjaMouse: punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.

I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.


On the other hand, that would mean Mr. Macaca would actually be a sitting Senator...
 
2012-11-12 12:48:58 AM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.


Meh.

Should have petitioned for something cool like FEMA re-education camps for all registered Republicans. You know, something we could all get behind.
 
2012-11-12 12:49:23 AM  

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Britney Spear's Speculum: I'm seriously considering adding a petition to take down the secession petitions. With the power of the internet, I bet that could get to 25,000 'signatures' before the others do

WE PETITION THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION TO: ignore, and publicly laugh at, all of the secession petitions.


I don't think you can ignore them while also publicly laughing at them. Those two ideas seems mutually exclusive.
 
2012-11-12 12:49:54 AM  
I'd like to finally get an Ohio/South Ohio split so that we could stop being associated with those inbred hilljacks living south of I-70.
 
2012-11-12 12:50:22 AM  

heap: i seceded from my cul-de-sac, and will be appointing housepets as senators.


And those house pets would be a far cry better than what California has for representatives now.
/votes for heap house pets for Senator!
 
2012-11-12 12:54:31 AM  
Oh yes, Florida. Where the further South you go, the more Northern you get.

/credit to CNN contributor
/think it was Paul Begala
 
2012-11-12 12:59:38 AM  

Hobo Jr.: I have always thought that California and Texas should be split and Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas should be combined. Maybe Idaho and and Nevada combine. Then make Guam and the Virgin Islands into states.


Splitting California North/South would make no difference. The San Fransisco and Los Angeles liberals would still control everything, nothing would change.
 
2012-11-12 01:04:23 AM  

Anonymocoso: All of this dividing and recombining the states is going to run into a big problem:

Nobody wants Utah or any part of it.

/Except on powder days.
//That means snow, Floridians


That's not entirely true, they also have Zion and Bryce. And Zion has some wicked slick-rock mountain biking.
Also polygamy porter. Not to mention how fun it is to run up to the top of Angel's landing. So, there is more than just powder. But I'll grant you their only redeeming features involve things they were fortunate enough to have in their state, nothing THEY have done makes them desired.
 
2012-11-12 01:09:57 AM  

Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.


Except that the Presidential vote would suddenly become dependent upon gerrymandered districts.
 
2012-11-12 01:10:19 AM  

abb3w: An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


Whatever treaties the Republic of Texas might have made when they joined the union were voided when they seceded. No such promises were made when they re-joined.
 
2012-11-12 01:13:12 AM  

ArmednHammered: Hobo Jr.: I have always thought that California and Texas should be split and Wyoming, Montana, and the Dakotas should be combined. Maybe Idaho and and Nevada combine. Then make Guam and the Virgin Islands into states.

Splitting California North/South would make no difference. The San Fransisco and Los Angeles liberals would still control everything, nothing would change.


What if CA was split above Marin? A true North/South split into urban and rural CA? And So Cal was split up E/W? You would end up with a Nor Cal whose interests are wildly different than those of So Cal.

SF, LA, OC and SD all have fairly similar interests and represent a logical grouping. The central valley (where all of our food is grown) has vastly different interests and goals from both Nor Cal and West So Cal, and should be represented uniquely too. I agree A split that separates LA and SF makes no sense whatsoever.
 
2012-11-12 01:14:07 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Secession is unconstitutional? Where does the constitution prohibit it? Nowhere.

Learn yourself something.


I've seen it.

Doesn't mean that secession is unconstitutional.

It's utterly ridiculous to rely on the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States, ie the government of the US, right after the Civil War, to determine the legality of secession from the US.

Also, look at Chase's argument. When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok. Then he says that those same states ratified the new Constitution that said it was in order to more a "more perfect" union. Well, that can mean whatever you want. To Chase it meant that it was even stronger than perpetual, I guess. Or it can mean one where states can secede at will. Or, again, whatever you decide is more perfect.

Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.
 
2012-11-12 01:14:41 AM  

homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!


States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)
 
2012-11-12 01:18:29 AM  
The easiest solution remains having electoral college votes being decided by popular vote within the state. At any given time every state will have between 1 and 3 electoral votes (in a state like California you are talking about shifting polls about 6 points in order to flip 3 electoral votes, as of now we have a pretty darn good idea how states will vote within about a 6 point margin hence 1-3 EV in play). This would mean that every state matters just as much as every other state.

Advantage over both the EV and the popular vote system. It puts the power back to the people while eliminating campaigning in "swing states" (for the current EV system) or high population areas (popular vote system).


For the house. Each party has a pool of candidates. People vote for party. Party gets to puts in candidates to the number of slots they have. No gerrymandering, representation is decided by popular vote within a state. Fair representation of people.



The catch you would have to convince both the Democratic and Republican parties, to choose a system that would open the door for 3rd party candidates (not necessarily in presidential elections but for representation in the house for sure.
 
2012-11-12 01:19:48 AM  

pciszek: homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!

States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)


Well, West Virginia was admitted into the Union after it seceded from Virginia, which had just seceded from the Union.
 
2012-11-12 01:22:12 AM  

jigger: When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok.


I'm fairly certain that Denver's 'disturbing the peace' ordinance precedes my birth. I didn't sign that shiat.

/subwoofer plugged in - ready to rock
 
2012-11-12 01:22:18 AM  

Lligeret: For the house. Each party has a pool of candidates. People vote for party. Party gets to puts in candidates to the number of slots they have. No gerrymandering, representation is decided by popular vote within a state. Fair representation of people.


well... maybe, except then candidates aren't tied to any actual districts. So the interests of different areas might never get represented.

The current gerrymandered system is awful though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mky11UJb9AY
 
2012-11-12 01:22:53 AM  

tomasso: Kansas and Nebraska


Fark you, I'm scared enough of the crazies in Kansas as it is without having to live under a government partially elected by them.

/Used to think Nebraska was a "respectable" red state, but even that's slipping these days...
 
2012-11-12 01:25:17 AM  
i.imgur.com

It'd be better for all of us! Know why Ohio is a swing state? Because of the mix or rural southern voters and liberal northern voters. If we're suddenly separate states, then our election outcomes are pretty much predetermined and Presidential candidates won't care about us anymore. I WANT TO LIVE IN AN OHIO WITHOUT CAMPAIGN ADS.
 
2012-11-12 01:25:38 AM  

jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.


Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?
 
2012-11-12 01:29:11 AM  

AliceBToklasLives: jigger: When the original 13 colonies signed the Articles of Confederation they formed a "perpetual" union. Did Texas sign that? No? Ok.

I'm fairly certain that Denver's 'disturbing the peace' ordinance precedes my birth. I didn't sign that shiat.

/subwoofer plugged in - ready to rock


So the Articles of Confederation were in effect in 1845?

And anyway, you're not a sovereign state. You're a serf. You can be born into subjugation.
 
2012-11-12 01:33:13 AM  

Lionel Mandrake: Long live Jefferson State!


The western states really do need to be redrawn.

Western Washington (Bellingham to Vancouver)
Western Oregon (Portland to Roseberg)
SE Oregon + Northern Cali (Grants Pass to Red Bluff)
North-Central Cali (Chico to Merced)
SF Bay Area (Santa Rosa to Los Gatos to west of the Berkeley Hills and San Leandro Hills)
Central Cali (Fresno to Bakersfield)
LA Area (Santa Barbara to Cabazon to San Clemente)
Southern Cali

Eastern Washington + Idaho Panhandle
Eastern Oregon + Southern Idaho
 
2012-11-12 01:34:19 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.

Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?


It's not settled? The constitution does not prohibit secession but it does reserve power to the states unless that power is expressly delegated to the US.

If you want to bring up the Articles of Confederation, that thing says that states are sovereign and retain all sovereignty.
 
2012-11-12 01:43:48 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.

I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.


because clearly we'd all benefit from Texas having electoral and senate representation in the 10^6 numerical scale.

Obviously, Texas being able to auto-pass shiat in the senate and elect the US president on its own will only benefit everyone.

//Texan.
 
2012-11-12 01:46:26 AM  

A Dark Evil Omen: jigger: Anyway, the ruling in this case was one of convenience overall.

Which makes it totally not settled Constitutional law. Because you don't like it.

Have we found Antonin Scalia's Fark login?


Bevets.
 
2012-11-12 01:46:54 AM  
I'm waiting for some troll to submit to SC legislature a petition to change the state name to 'Carolina'.
 
2012-11-12 01:47:29 AM  

Snarfangel: Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

Four states. Jefferson (everything north of Tahoe, about 39 North), SoCal (everything south of the Tehachapi Mountains, or 35 North), Pacifica (west of I-5) and Valley (East of I-5).

/actually, the border between Pacifica and Valley could parallel I-5 rather than be exactly on it, I just used that since it's pretty obvious on the map.


I'm down with that if we get to rename SoCal as either Aztlan or Calafia....and you guys keep selling us water.
 
2012-11-12 01:52:44 AM  

Bonzo_1116: I'm down with that if we get to rename SoCal as either Aztlan


No.

We know what you're up to.
 
2012-11-12 01:53:19 AM  

cptjeff: KatjaMouse: punkwrestler: urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks

Fark that Northern VA wants to secede from the downstate drain on our economy. We don't get the right representation in the statehouse and they take our money. Let us be free. We'll even take DC they at least have a tax base.

I'd support that move in a heart beat. Maybe George Allen would stop sending me mailers anytime he makes a failed attempt at a Senate run.

On the other hand, that would mean Mr. Macaca would actually be a sitting Senator...


Maybe, but I'm waiting to hear who the Democrats will run for Governor next year against Attorney General Vaginal Probe....
 
2012-11-12 01:53:21 AM  
Just give the Florida panhandle to Alabama and Jacksonville to Georgia and be done with it.
 
2012-11-12 01:55:02 AM  

pciszek: homelessdude: I am sure the Supreme Court will be referencing this Wikipedia article if the matter ever gets that far. What a great find and even better green-light!

States have been allowed to split up. West Virginia from Virginia, and Maine from Massachusetts. (Yeah, that last sounds weird, but look it up.)



My point was not that it cannot happen or that it never has happened. I was commenting that a wikipedia article is a bit thin as justification for a post....or the breakup of the country.

A more focused search. (google) 
 
2012-11-12 01:55:44 AM  
There is nothing unconstitutional about secession and you aren't bound by the US Constitution once you secede anyway. If you can't withdraw from a union, then you are a slave.

If there had been only a few free states 150 years ago and they had no chance to win a war against the slave states, they could have seceded and combined into a new free nation or individual free nation states. Who wouldn't support that decision?
 
2012-11-12 01:55:44 AM  

fusillade762: Lost Thought 00: Or we could take the far more straight forward approach and use a direct election.

I'm all for getting rid of the Electoral College.


No

I think the founding fathers got it right. In a direct democracy, there would be no such thing as women suffrage or civil rights...

I do think we went down the wrong path somewhere though... Currently, most states have an all or nothing approach to electoral votes - the winner of the popular vote in the state (With the exception of Maine) takes all electoral votes.

I think we would be better served by the congressional district method where each electoral vote is determined by the popular majority in that district (plus two for the majority of the state)

We have a large and diverse nation, and the will of the populous of urban areas should not dictate life in rural areas...
 
2012-11-12 01:58:03 AM  
East Nebraska and West Nebraska.

Do it now. Everything west of Lincoln sucks. EVERYTHING.
 
2012-11-12 01:58:14 AM  

Fenrisulfr: fusillade762: Lost Thought 00: Or we could take the far more straight forward approach and use a direct election.

I'm all for getting rid of the Electoral College.

No

I think the founding fathers got it right. In a direct democracy, there would be no such thing as women suffrage or civil rights...


It's still not a direct democracy, though; we've the Congress, making it a representative democracy. Getting rid of the EC would only affect the presidential elections (wouldn't it?).
 
2012-11-12 02:01:22 AM  
Oh, and the whole "unconstitutional to secede" thing is a whole bunch of nothing. If a state(s) secede, they're not bound by the Constitution anyways. It's all a moot point. It should be "It's constitutional to kick your ass if you secede". That makes far more sense.
 
2012-11-12 02:02:35 AM  

abb3w: I think the split of Texas into five pieces makes more immediate sense.


If that happened, they would end up getting more electoral votes per person. And they'd all vote republican.
 
2012-11-12 02:04:48 AM  
That said, I think it would be beneficial to kill the Senate, give every state two at large congressman in the house, and replace the Senate with a "Soviet Democracy" inspired legislative body. Delegates would be assigned to various sectors of the economy, and based upon what job/career you have/are seeking, you vote for your regional delegate.
 
2012-11-12 02:14:28 AM  

Fenrisulfr:

We have a large and diverse nation, and the will of the populous of urban areas should not dictate life in rural areas...


So somehow it's better that the fate of the entire nation hinges on farking Florida and Ohio? I don't see how I should be overjoyed that those two states receive an inordinate amount of attention and pandering at the expense of states with counties that have greater populations than all of Ohio.
 
2012-11-12 02:26:40 AM  

Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.


As long as we agree that SoCal includes SF and Marin, as they are more closely aligned with LA and SD. and NorCal is everything above Marin and Sonoma/Napa. You know, the actual geographic North and South, none of this SF is nor cal and LA is so cal silliness.
 
2012-11-12 02:27:23 AM  
The funny thing is we'd end up with a So Cal with 50 electoral votes a central Cal with 4 and a Nor cal with 1. =P
 
2012-11-12 02:30:44 AM  

video man: That said, I think it would be beneficial to kill the Senate, give every state two at large congressman in the house, and replace the Senate with a "Soviet Democracy" inspired legislative body. Delegates would be assigned to various sectors of the economy, and based upon what job/career you have/are seeking, you vote for your regional delegate.


Nyet Tovarish,

We need to go back to where the (Governor/Legislature) of each State (And build in safeguards to prevent political machines from controlling) appointed senators. The Senate represents the interest of the states, and the House represents the people (At least that's what I understood from my civics class so many years ago....)

Remember, the US is supposed to be a federation of states - One central authority to represent the will of 50 different states - NOT to control them.
 
2012-11-12 02:31:00 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: The funny thing is we'd end up with a So Cal with 50 electoral votes a central Cal with 4 and a Nor cal with 1. =P


Sorry, EV minimum purchase: 3
 
2012-11-12 02:34:56 AM  

LordOfThePings: Uchiha_Cycliste: The funny thing is we'd end up with a So Cal with 50 electoral votes a central Cal with 4 and a Nor cal with 1. =P

Sorry, EV minimum purchase: 3


really? everyone gets at least 3? I had no idea, I figured 1 was the min.
So I guess it will be, iono, 51, 3 and 3 and there will just be more congressmen and EVs.
 
2012-11-12 02:34:57 AM  

Fenrisulfr: fusillade762: Lost Thought 00: Or we could take the far more straight forward approach and use a direct election.

I'm all for getting rid of the Electoral College.

No

I think the founding fathers got it right. In a direct democracy, there would be no such thing as women suffrage or civil rights...

I do think we went down the wrong path somewhere though... Currently, most states have an all or nothing approach to electoral votes - the winner of the popular vote in the state (With the exception of Maine) takes all electoral votes.

I think we would be better served by the congressional district method where each electoral vote is determined by the popular majority in that district (plus two for the majority of the state)

We have a large and diverse nation, and the will of the populous of urban areas should not dictate life in rural areas...


Well before that then you must make sure every district is absolutely equal in size. That way parties can't lump all their opponents into one district while the other districts have 2 people each. One could argue that if you are going to do that why not just do away with state boundaries for house districts and let them cross state lines.

The size of the House is also a problem. The House hasn't changed size in over 100 years, the average size of a House district use to be 212,000 in 1911, in 2010 the average district size went up to 710,767. Isn't that a bit much, when they are supposed to be drawn based on common concerns?
 
2012-11-12 02:35:34 AM  
Do I get more Electoral votes with the purchase of electoral votes of equal or greater value?
 
2012-11-12 02:36:23 AM  
North and South California makes more sense.
 
2012-11-12 02:37:28 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: really? everyone gets at least 3? I had no idea, I figured 1 was the min.


It's equal to your representation in Congress. Two senators, one or more representatives.

Uchiha_Cycliste: Do I get more Electoral votes with the purchase of electoral votes of equal or greater value?


Thank you, come again.
 
2012-11-12 02:41:26 AM  
You guys got some hurr in your durr.

But please, carry on.
 
2012-11-12 02:41:31 AM  

LordOfThePings: It's equal to your representation in Congress. Two senators, one or more representatives.


I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.
 
2012-11-12 02:42:41 AM  

WaffleStomper: You guys got some hurr in your durr.

But please, carry on.


how the fark did you escape from my ignore list?
Heh, guess it won't matter in about 10 seconds. I'll see you in hell derp-meister.
 
2012-11-12 02:45:06 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: WaffleStomper: You guys got some hurr in your durr.

But please, carry on.

how the fark did you escape from my ignore list?
Heh, guess it won't matter in about 10 seconds. I'll see you in hell derp-meister.


cdn.stripersonline.com
 
2012-11-12 02:45:24 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.


Um, you're confused. Sometimes "Congressman" is used as a shorthand to refer to your Representative only, but Congress is the Senate and the House. Smallest delegation is 3, (2+1, as I said).
 
2012-11-12 02:45:31 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: LordOfThePings: It's equal to your representation in Congress. Two senators, one or more representatives.

I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.


No. One house member + 2 Senators=3 EV minimum.
 
2012-11-12 02:46:21 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: LordOfThePings: It's equal to your representation in Congress. Two senators, one or more representatives.

I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.


I thought that Congressthing is the correct description of both Representatives and Sentators when spoken of collectively (i.e. "The New Hampshire Congressional delegation is all female this year"), but we hardly ever use it that way anymore.
 
2012-11-12 02:47:41 AM  
punkwrestler:
The size of the House is also a problem. The House hasn't changed size in over 100 years, the average size of a House district use to be 212,000 in 1911, in 2010 the average district size went up to 710,767. Isn't that a bit much, when they are supposed to be drawn based on common concerns?


I agree with you there - You have states like Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana where one rep is supposed to cover the entire state, where others may only have to cover a few square miles.... I don't have a ready solution that i can pull out of my A** for that, but those are things that need to be addressed.

My concern is that a large swath of the entire US is considered/dismissed as "Fly By" territory, yet if they were somehow able to secede, we would be seriously farked...
 
2012-11-12 02:50:59 AM  

LordOfThePings: Uchiha_Cycliste: I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.

Um, you're confused. Sometimes "Congressman" is used as a shorthand to refer to your Representative only, but Congress is the Senate and the House. Smallest delegation is 3, (2+1, as I said).


Yup I was, when you said :representation in Congress" I didn't know you were lumping together congress and the senate. Now I got it. So it's possible to have one congressman, but there is always a min of 3 EV. I learned something new today, and thanks for clarifying my misconceptions.
 
2012-11-12 02:51:58 AM  
 
2012-11-12 02:54:23 AM  

Bonzo_1116: Uchiha_Cycliste: LordOfThePings: It's equal to your representation in Congress. Two senators, one or more representatives.

I knew the EV and congressman were equal. I don't see how the number of senators comes into the discussion WRT the number of congressman. Again, I always assumed the smallest states would have one congressman and one EV. From what you say they have a min of 3 congressman and 3 EV, and thus a min of 5 representatives, 3 congress and 2 senators.

I thought that Congressthing is the correct description of both Representatives and Sentators when spoken of collectively (i.e. "The New Hampshire Congressional delegation is all female this year"), but we hardly ever use it that way anymore.


I can't tell if serious, or making a good joke. Was congressthing really a term for all representatives? If so, wow! if Not, ha!
 
2012-11-12 02:54:40 AM  
With all this complaining about the EC, I find it amazing that a person losing the popular vote has won election only 4 times, and 2 of those (3 if you believe Bush stole Florida) were caused by backroom deals for EVs.
 
2012-11-12 02:55:11 AM  

jigger: It's utterly ridiculous to rely on the ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States, ie the government of the US, right after the Civil War, to determine the legality of secession from the US.


The Supreme Court of the United States is the legal arbiter of disputes about the Constitution of the United States.

Listen, if you want to revolt, good luck with that. I wouldn't recommend that course of action, but you have the right to revolution. But when the Supreme Court says something is unconstitutional, it's unconstitutional. You need an amendment, or a later Supreme Court decision overturning the previous decision to change that, you can't just say, "but I think they were biased, so we should just ignore that." That carries no legal weight.

jigger: So the Articles of Confederation were in effect in 1845?


The Constitution was still in effect.

The Supreme Court is tasked with interpreting the Constitution. It ruled -- and regardless of your opinion of whether or not it's "ridiculous", that ruling is the law of the land -- that the intent of the founders, expressed by the words "more perfect Union", was that the Union be perpetual, as a non-perpetual Union could not be more perfect than the perpetual Union it replaced.
 
2012-11-12 02:58:03 AM  

Fenrisulfr: punkwrestler:
The size of the House is also a problem. The House hasn't changed size in over 100 years, the average size of a House district use to be 212,000 in 1911, in 2010 the average district size went up to 710,767. Isn't that a bit much, when they are supposed to be drawn based on common concerns?

I agree with you there - You have states like Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana where one rep is supposed to cover the entire state, where others may only have to cover a few square miles.... I don't have a ready solution that i can pull out of my A** for that, but those are things that need to be addressed.

My concern is that a large swath of the entire US is considered/dismissed as "Fly By" territory, yet if they were somehow able to secede, we would be seriously farked...


Is your representative supposed to represent people or dirt?
 
2012-11-12 03:03:14 AM  

Bonzo_1116: Fenrisulfr: punkwrestler:
The size of the House is also a problem. The House hasn't changed size in over 100 years, the average size of a House district use to be 212,000 in 1911, in 2010 the average district size went up to 710,767. Isn't that a bit much, when they are supposed to be drawn based on common concerns?

I agree with you there - You have states like Wyoming, North Dakota, Montana where one rep is supposed to cover the entire state, where others may only have to cover a few square miles.... I don't have a ready solution that i can pull out of my A** for that, but those are things that need to be addressed.

My concern is that a large swath of the entire US is considered/dismissed as "Fly By" territory, yet if they were somehow able to secede, we would be seriously farked...

Is your representative supposed to represent people or dirt?


Depends on the house. Many of the sparsely populated states need the extra representation to get the funds that would be otherwise diverted to the more densely populated areas. Otherwise, funding for things like roads, dams, aqueducts, and infrastructure in general would be far to anemic. Like it or not, farmers need good roads to traverse, too.
 
2012-11-12 03:03:59 AM  
Uchiha_Cycliste:

I can't tell if serious, or making a good joke. Was congressthing really a term for all representatives? If so, wow! if Not, ha!

Feel free to pass it on, and tell the easily fooled that we get the word from the oldest continually operating representative assembly in the world, Iceland's Althing.
 
2012-11-12 03:07:58 AM  

Bonzo_1116: Uchiha_Cycliste:

I can't tell if serious, or making a good joke. Was congressthing really a term for all representatives? If so, wow! if Not, ha!

Feel free to pass it on, and tell the easily fooled that we get the word from the oldest continually operating representative assembly in the world, Iceland's Althing.


Thanks for clueing me in. I almost feel bad about misleading fools in the future in this way, almost.
 
2012-11-12 03:09:19 AM  
Splitting's not going to happen, at least not in any productive way. Neither party is going to allow the other to get new safe Senate seats.
 
2012-11-12 03:15:30 AM  
Anything in constitutional with a 2/3 vote.
 
2012-11-12 03:17:30 AM  
www.midwestsportsfans.com

Mike Polk Jr. already had this well covered for Ohio, with his Ohio Secession Compromise Plan. Really, the only thing that you might be able to argue is that Toledo belongs in "Old Ohio".

/Good luck, Zanesville
 
2012-11-12 03:17:37 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: I didn't know you were lumping together congress and the senate. Now I got it. So it's possible to have one congressman, but there is always a min of 3 EV. I learned something new today, and thanks for clarifying my misconceptions.


You are using your terminology incorrectly.

Each state has at least three congressmen.

Each state has two senators.

Each state has at least one representative.

Congress is made up of both the House of Representatives and the Senate.

So it's not possible to have only one Congressman, the minimum is three. It IS possible to have only one Representative.
 
2012-11-12 03:21:52 AM  

Nobodyn0se: Uchiha_Cycliste: I didn't know you were lumping together congress and the senate. Now I got it. So it's possible to have one congressman, but there is always a min of 3 EV. I learned something new today, and thanks for clarifying my misconceptions.

You are using your terminology incorrectly.

Each state has at least three congressmen.

Each state has two senators.

Each state has at least one representative.

Congress is made up of both the House of Representatives and the Senate.

So it's not possible to have only one Congressman, the minimum is three. It IS possible to have only one Representative.


Would it be fair to say that the media these days is not quite as exacting as they should be with these terms? And can I use my misunderstandings demonstrated here as proof? I knew that both senators and congressional representatives were my representatives. I had no idea that senators could fall under the catch-all of congressman. Never knew that until now. Thanks.
 
2012-11-12 03:23:35 AM  

iollow: Anything in constitutional with a 2/3 vote.


Of what, the Avenue B School Glee Club?
 
2012-11-12 03:29:49 AM  

LordOfThePings: iollow: Anything in constitutional with a 2/3 vote.

Of what, the Avenue B School Glee Club?


He seems to be aware that a presidential veto can be over-ridden, He seems also to believe that congressman can create any amendment they want to the constitution and that it will be passed. Likewise he appears to think that the Supreme court can't strike down an amendment for being un-constitutional. I question that last piece of the puzzle. He seems to think that if congress decided to pass a law authorizing torture that the supreme court couldn't strike it down.
 
2012-11-12 03:37:26 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Likewise he appears to think that the Supreme court can't strike down an amendment for being un-constitutional. I question that last piece of the puzzle.


I think you'll find that if the Constitution has actually been amended (a process which requires consent of 3/4 of the states, incidentally), the amendment is Constitutional by definition.
 
2012-11-12 03:48:11 AM  

Hunter_Worthington: Mrtraveler01: Hunter_Worthington: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Hunter_Worthington: That would be a waste of time. The better thing to do would be allocate Electoral Votes to the candidate winning the majority of the House Districts in the state, i.e., if Florida had a majority GOP delegation, the GOP candidate would get the whole state's electoral vote.

That would end that "swing state" nonsense.

Gerrymandering FTW!

Well, yeah, spread that to Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and a few others, yeah. That's it exactly.

Why do you want to give politicians more incentive to gerrymander their districts?

Because it will help the GOP win?

That would be one benefit, yes. The others would be to limit the "madness of the masses", reinforce the federal organization of the nation, and help give the states more say in the direction of the Federal Government.


So a fascist government is your idea of "benefit?"
 
2012-11-12 03:51:25 AM  

LordOfThePings: Uchiha_Cycliste: Likewise he appears to think that the Supreme court can't strike down an amendment for being un-constitutional. I question that last piece of the puzzle.

I think you'll find that if the Constitution has actually been amended (a process which requires consent of 3/4 of the states, incidentally), the amendment is Constitutional by definition.


I therefore weasel out of it by saying I think he's wrong about the 2/3rds, Ha ha!
 
2012-11-12 03:59:50 AM  

LordOfThePings: Uchiha_Cycliste: Likewise he appears to think that the Supreme court can't strike down an amendment for being un-constitutional. I question that last piece of the puzzle.

I think you'll find that if the Constitution has actually been amended (a process which requires consent of 3/4 of the states, incidentally), the amendment is Constitutional by definition.


This.

State Constitutional amendments can be struck down, as California's Proposition 8 may be soon, but only if they conflict with the Federal Constitution.
 
2012-11-12 04:10:25 AM  

Non-evil Monkey: State Constitutional amendments can be struck down, as California's Proposition 8 may be soon, but only if they conflict with the Federal Constitution.


Ah, good point.

But in reference to the U.S. Constitution, I suppose there could be disagreement over whether the process of amendment specified in Article V was followed. In which case the Supremes might be asked to arbitrate whether the Constitution had been successfully amended. And once an amendment is enacted, they interpret the real-world application of it.
 
2012-11-12 04:15:32 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I'm really confused why the state of Dearborn doesn't actually include Dearborn, Michigan.

Other than that, yeah, "Superior" got a shout-out!

/If the adorably grizzled plaid wearing bearded rapscallion hermits in the UP haven't been able to secede from the lazy trolls in the LP who didn't even fight a real war with Ohio to get the UP in the first place (did I piss off all Michiganders yet?), I doubt North/South Florida would ever happen


Don't you need, like, a bigger population to actually get your own state? Like, 30k or 50k or something? The UP's biggest city is Marquette, and it only has maybe 3000 people total, especially if you take away all the weekend travelers, hunters, and campers.

As a proud Southern Troll, I say we just let the up stew in it. They like to biatch, but without our tax money going to fund their government services and our tourist dollars to actually give them something to live on, they'd all be shack dwelling hermits writing anti-technology manifestos by candlelight. They'll get over it.

/State of Superior my ass...
 
2012-11-12 04:16:20 AM  

pxsteel: Considering haw partisan we have become, most northerners did not like being lead by Bush, most southerners don't like being lead by Obama. I think the time is coming for a northern US and a southern US.

Free trade and movement would remain. The Northern US would have a more liberal government the Southern gov would be more conservative.

everyone would probably be a heck of a lot happier


The south would collapse
 
2012-11-12 04:22:23 AM  

punkwrestler: The trouble with that is not all house districts are created equal. IN VA there is a difference of 600,000 people between the most populated district and the least populated district.


Um yeah, they don't work like that. Districts are, at least at the beginning of each redistricting usually within 1-5% of each other. VA's post-census redistricting started this election cycle, so the districts should be pretty damn close. It is possible for districts to change over ten years, but I would be surprised if by that much, though its entirely possible, but they were not created that way. So with in a state, the districts are actually created equal, though through emigration/ingratiation they could get unbalanced.
 
2012-11-12 04:28:56 AM  

soj4life: The south would collapse


There are a lot of arguments against a split like this, and I agree with them all. But I have a hard time accepting this one. As a Northern boy who, by virtue of being married into the Military, as spent way too many years in the south, I wouldn't mind seeing it collapse into a socio-economic hellscape of their own creation. Too many of them champion idiot positions that would lead to their own destruction, and it's only because the adults in government they keep complaining about bailing them out or aptly ignoring them at times that they don't find themselves starving in the streets.

Seeing them finally realize what their policies amount to sounds a little vindictively appealing, I have to admit. We'd help them out of it, eventually, but only after they've learned their lesson. It's like when your teenager gets so drunk that he gets busted by the cops and ends up having to spend a night in lockup with a huge hangover and misdemeanor charges the next day. Sometimes you have to let people who get too big for their britches screw up bad enough that they won't do it again.
 
2012-11-12 04:55:42 AM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

As long as we agree that SoCal includes SF and Marin, as they are more closely aligned with LA and SD. and NorCal is everything above Marin and Sonoma/Napa. You know, the actual geographic North and South, none of this SF is nor cal and LA is so cal silliness.


The Bay Area stands with Humboldt and Mendocino as well. If SoCal wants the Bay Area as part of the deal, it should be a coast/inland split instead. It would suck to lose Tahoe though.
 
2012-11-12 05:10:07 AM  

Shadowknight: soj4life: The south would collapse

There are a lot of arguments against a split like this, and I agree with them all. But I have a hard time accepting this one. As a Northern boy who, by virtue of being married into the Military, as spent way too many years in the south, I wouldn't mind seeing it collapse into a socio-economic hellscape of their own creation. Too many of them champion idiot positions that would lead to their own destruction, and it's only because the adults in government they keep complaining about bailing them out or aptly ignoring them at times that they don't find themselves starving in the streets.

Seeing them finally realize what their policies amount to sounds a little vindictively appealing, I have to admit. We'd help them out of it, eventually, but only after they've learned their lesson. It's like when your teenager gets so drunk that he gets busted by the cops and ends up having to spend a night in lockup with a huge hangover and misdemeanor charges the next day. Sometimes you have to let people who get too big for their britches screw up bad enough that they won't do it again.


The only way to teach them a lesson is what we should have done 8 generations ago, limit the ability of the states to create laws that oppress their citizens. Along with that, to prohibit the display of the CSA.
 
2012-11-12 05:31:28 AM  

soj4life: Shadowknight: soj4life: The south would collapse

There are a lot of arguments against a split like this, and I agree with them all. But I have a hard time accepting this one. As a Northern boy who, by virtue of being married into the Military, as spent way too many years in the south, I wouldn't mind seeing it collapse into a socio-economic hellscape of their own creation. Too many of them champion idiot positions that would lead to their own destruction, and it's only because the adults in government they keep complaining about bailing them out or aptly ignoring them at times that they don't find themselves starving in the streets.

Seeing them finally realize what their policies amount to sounds a little vindictively appealing, I have to admit. We'd help them out of it, eventually, but only after they've learned their lesson. It's like when your teenager gets so drunk that he gets busted by the cops and ends up having to spend a night in lockup with a huge hangover and misdemeanor charges the next day. Sometimes you have to let people who get too big for their britches screw up bad enough that they won't do it again.

The only way to teach them a lesson is what we should have done 8 generations ago, limit the ability of the states to create laws that oppress their citizens. Along with that, to prohibit the display of the CSA.


Eh, I don't think that prohibiting the display of the CSA is a good idea. Kind of goes counter to basic freedom, and people in this country have the right to be goddamn idiots if they want. Honoring it like some sort of proud heritage should be publicly shamed, but the law should stay out of it.

As far as prohibiting laws that oppress citizens, that should go without saying frankly. The fact that we don't, and that civil rights is still in debate or pushed off until more "important matters" are dealt with (basically tabling it forever if they could) is pure lunacy. However, passing a law like that would be hard, as it would be subjective and always up to interpretation. I mean, obvious ones like Jim Crow laws or segregationist policy would be a no brainer to most thinking people. But what about someone arguing against speed limits, because it inhibits their freedom? Or stop signs, for that matter, since in a free country they would take their own damn chances and accept the consequences, damn it!
 
2012-11-12 05:57:29 AM  

vpb: I have wondered about this.

You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.


California is "significant" in the electoral college because it has a lot of people. Its significance is proportional to its size.

The ridiculous over-representatiom of some states in the seante is one of the worst flaws of our republic. We should not create any more sparsely-populated states.
 
2012-11-12 06:11:22 AM  

Kibbler: vpb: I have wondered about this.

You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.

California is "significant" in the electoral college because it has a lot of people. Its significance is proportional to its size.

The ridiculous over-representatiom of some states in the seante is one of the worst flaws of our republic. We should not create any more sparsely-populated states.


I think the founding fathers saw it as more of a design feature than a flaw. Prevent tyranny of the majority, and all that. Granted, they could not have foreseen how big or populated our nation wold ultimately become and how that balance would ultimately be disrupted by the sheer size and density of our city centers verses ran dome country sides.

I think oversized voting for undersized populations still has a place, but it needs to be modified in some way so that we don't have tyranny of the minority instead, where a tiny but rabid population can gridlock all progress despite an overwhelming majority support. How that would work, I have no idea.
 
2012-11-12 06:24:11 AM  
Just came in here to quote my granddad:

"We should give East Texas to Louisiana, the panhandle to Oklahoma, and South and West Texas back to Mexico. The central part's the only one that seems to have a damn lick of sense."
 
2012-11-12 06:39:01 AM  

tinderboxer: punkwrestler: The trouble with that is not all house districts are created equal. IN VA there is a difference of 600,000 people between the most populated district and the least populated district.

Um yeah, they don't work like that. Districts are, at least at the beginning of each redistricting usually within 1-5% of each other. VA's post-census redistricting started this election cycle, so the districts should be pretty damn close. It is possible for districts to change over ten years, but I would be surprised if by that much, though its entirely possible, but they were not created that way. So with in a state, the districts are actually created equal, though through emigration/ingratiation they could get unbalanced.


That's the way the districts were created to start with the one with-300000 in the southwest corner of the state to create republican turf and make sure no big Democratic cities were in it. The + 300000 is in Northern Va a really big district that they squeezed as many Democrats in as possible, so to make sure NoVA only has 3 house districts even though it's the most populous region of the state.
 
2012-11-12 07:05:23 AM  

urban.derelict: Combine virginia and west virginia, enough of this sh*t, they're the ONLY instance of 'country' and 'west country'... f8ckin' rednecks


EABOD.

Broad stereotypes are broad. And usually inaccurate.
 
2012-11-12 07:06:03 AM  

Shadowknight: Kibbler: vpb: I have wondered about this.

You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.

California is "significant" in the electoral college because it has a lot of people. Its significance is proportional to its size.

The ridiculous over-representatiom of some states in the seante is one of the worst flaws of our republic. We should not create any more sparsely-populated states.

I think the founding fathers saw it as more of a design feature than a flaw. Prevent tyranny of the majority, and all that. Granted, they could not have foreseen how big or populated our nation wold ultimately become and how that balance would ultimately be disrupted by the sheer size and density of our city centers verses ran dome country sides.

I think oversized voting for undersized populations still has a place, but it needs to be modified in some way so that we don't have tyranny of the minority instead, where a tiny but rabid population can gridlock all progress despite an overwhelming majority support. How that would work, I have no idea.


1) I think the Founding Fathers came up with it as a way to entice smaller prospective states to come into the union. I don't think they were being farsighted, noble, wise, omniscient, all of the usual bullshiat superpowers we attribute to them. They were cutting deals to get a nation started, not lounging on Mt. Olympus and designing Super Republic.

2) We already have a tiny minority of the nation's people electing senators who can and often do block legislation., The populations of Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Kansas, Utah and Nebraska combined is under 13 million. They have 16 seats in the Senate. California has has 37 million people and has two seats. The ratio of misrepresentation is about 24:1.

If you consider just Alaska, the Dakotas, Montana and Wyoming, they have less than three million people and eight seats in the Senate. The ratio is now 48:1. It takes 48 Californians to equal the Senate representation of one citizen in any one of those four states.

To put this another way, imagine if California had 96 seats in the Senate, to 2 seats in each of those states. Now representation would be proportional.

Now imagine if California had 4608 seats in the Senate. Now California would be overrepresented compared those states by a ratio of 48:1.
 
2012-11-12 07:22:24 AM  
All those southern states. Combine!

It'll be called: "Whitesylvania".
 
2012-11-12 07:38:14 AM  

Kittypie070: Gyrfalcon 2012-11-11 10:32:57 PM


Smallberries: California needs to be split into 3 or more. SoCal, North California, and Farmer Cal.

So Cal, No Cal, and Cal Worthington and his dog Spot.

HAAHH!! XD


I was shocked to find out that Cal Worthington expands past California. I saw a Worthington commercial in Alaska, FFS.
 
2012-11-12 07:44:03 AM  
I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-12 07:44:40 AM  
Please keep acting crazy, tea baggers. It's working... I swear.
 
2012-11-12 07:48:26 AM  

Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.


www.celluloidheroreviews.com

"How many assholes do we have in this thread, anyway?"

YO!
 
2012-11-12 07:49:36 AM  

Anonymocoso: All of this dividing and recombining the states is going to run into a big problem:

Nobody wants Utah or any part of it.

/Except on powder days.
//That means snow, Floridians


The Inland Empire. Utah, Idaho, Western Colorado, Northern AZ, maybe Utah.

All united by a common religion already.
 
2012-11-12 07:49:44 AM  

Spaced Lion: Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

[www.celluloidheroreviews.com image 425x233]

"How many assholes do we have in this thread, anyway?"

YO!


You're on the list now.
 
2012-11-12 07:51:51 AM  

Shadowknight: soj4life: Shadowknight: soj4life: The south would collapse

There are a lot of arguments against a split like this, and I agree with them all. But I have a hard time accepting this one. As a Northern boy who, by virtue of being married into the Military, as spent way too many years in the south, I wouldn't mind seeing it collapse into a socio-economic hellscape of their own creation. Too many of them champion idiot positions that would lead to their own destruction, and it's only because the adults in government they keep complaining about bailing them out or aptly ignoring them at times that they don't find themselves starving in the streets.

Seeing them finally realize what their policies amount to sounds a little vindictively appealing, I have to admit. We'd help them out of it, eventually, but only after they've learned their lesson. It's like when your teenager gets so drunk that he gets busted by the cops and ends up having to spend a night in lockup with a huge hangover and misdemeanor charges the next day. Sometimes you have to let people who get too big for their britches screw up bad enough that they won't do it again.

The only way to teach them a lesson is what we should have done 8 generations ago, limit the ability of the states to create laws that oppress their citizens. Along with that, to prohibit the display of the CSA.

Eh, I don't think that prohibiting the display of the CSA is a good idea. Kind of goes counter to basic freedom, and people in this country have the right to be goddamn idiots if they want. Honoring it like some sort of proud heritage should be publicly shamed, but the law should stay out of it.

As far as prohibiting laws that oppress citizens, that should go without saying frankly. The fact that we don't, and that civil rights is still in debate or pushed off until more "important matters" are dealt with (basically tabling it forever if they could) is pure lunacy. However, passing a law like that would be hard, as it woul ...


Germany prohibited all Nazi paraphernalia and displays after WWII.

Its not unprecedented. If anything, we regularly allowed the CSA states to celebrate their war heroes to this day, which creates this sort of 2nd country mentality. I think that was kind of counter-productive to the USA over all.
 
2012-11-12 07:55:42 AM  
I think we need to abandon the Electoral College and representative government and become a true democracy. Every person votes on every issue.
 
2012-11-12 07:58:39 AM  

syrynxx: I think we need to abandon the Electoral College and representative government and become a true democracy. Every person votes on every issue.


Or everyybody tweets on every issue. If you're in favor, tweet "LULZ". If not, "U MAD THO?"
 
2012-11-12 08:36:17 AM  
Look guys, it's cute what you're talking about and all, but anything that suffixes with reform is not going to work in the USA.
 
2012-11-12 08:42:35 AM  
At least this puts a whole end to whether or not conservatives are patriotic.

They are not.
 
2012-11-12 09:23:51 AM  

Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

[i.imgur.com image 619x460]


I'm in every tab save sports. I don't get that one.
 
2012-11-12 09:27:47 AM  

abb3w: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I'd say more than five. Like, however many atoms that make that place up.

An interesting notion; but "five" is what they were promised by the treaty of annexation.


Which was never ratified by the Senate. The treaty is irrelevant because it was never enacted.

Texas was admitted into the Union by a joint Congressional resolution.
 
2012-11-12 09:29:03 AM  

talan123: At least this puts a whole end to whether or not conservatives are patriotic.

They are not.


They're part of the Benedict Arnold Brigade - part of the 101st Keyboarder Division.
 
2012-11-12 09:32:05 AM  

Vangor: Uh, how about Central Florida and North/South Florida? We're the least psychotic part of the state. I said least, so still rather psychotic.


This, please. We'll add jobs through moderating the derp north and south of us. Everyone wins.
 
2012-11-12 09:42:18 AM  

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

[i.imgur.com image 619x460]

I'm in every tab save sports. I don't get that one.


Shadowrun map of North America, circa 2070
 
2012-11-12 10:23:04 AM  
i158.photobucket.com

/SoCal might need to be smaller.
 
2012-11-12 10:39:07 AM  

Parthenogenetic: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

[i.imgur.com image 619x460]

I'm in every tab save sports. I don't get that one.

Shadowrun map of North America, circa 2070


Or you could go with Crimson Skies:
tekeli.li
 
2012-11-12 11:31:04 AM  

ramblinwreck: Yeah, I can't exactly leave MS if they wanted to leave and become part of Jesusland, so I'm definitely not cool with this...


If Indiana wanted to leave, it would probably have to change its capital from Indianapolis to Carmel.
 
2012-11-12 11:31:35 AM  

Parthenogenetic: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

[i.imgur.com image 619x460]

I'm in every tab save sports. I don't get that one.

Shadowrun map of North America, circa 2070


My only exposure to the Shadowrun universe was on the Sega.
 
2012-11-12 11:39:19 AM  

andrewagill: [i158.photobucket.com image 621x733]

/SoCal might need to be smaller.


Pretty close to what I was thinking, though I would cut across at 35 degrees north (Tehachapi Mountains) and 39 degrees north (Lake Tahoe), or essentially both ends of that long northwest/southeast line segment that forms most of the California-Nevada border.
 
2012-11-12 11:54:09 AM  
Trade gambling on 29 EVs in Florida for a guaranteed big chunk for the Dems? I'm all for that. The Cons would never win another election.
 
2012-11-12 12:09:09 PM  
Just make the Florida panhandle part of Alabama. They'll fit right in.
 
2012-11-12 12:31:44 PM  

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: Parthenogenetic: I don't think there are a lot of folks who habitually browse both the Politics and Geek tabs. Weaver95, me, and maybe a few others.

Nevertheless, Fark, I am disappoint.

[i.imgur.com image 619x460]

I'm in every tab save sports. I don't get that one.


Ditto
 
2012-11-12 02:39:45 PM  

andrewagill: i158.photobucket.com


I've seen that map posted before, but it has a few issues. While it solves the cultural differences between the northern counties and the rest of the state by breaking them off into Jefferson State, it doesn't address the similar differences between the major metro areas and the more rural counties in the Central Valley, inland desert and Sierra Nevada range.

At a minimum, the Bay Area counties should be their own state. Same deal with Los Angeles and the Inland Empire. Maybe lump in San Diego with LA, maybe break it into its own state. Orange County is geographically closer to LA, but they might culturally align better with San Diego.
 
2012-11-12 03:21:24 PM  

Dinjiin: andrewagill: i158.photobucket.com

I've seen that map posted before, but it has a few issues. While it solves the cultural differences between the northern counties and the rest of the state by breaking them off into Jefferson State, it doesn't address the similar differences between the major metro areas and the more rural counties in the Central Valley, inland desert and Sierra Nevada range.

At a minimum, the Bay Area counties should be their own state. Same deal with Los Angeles and the Inland Empire. Maybe lump in San Diego with LA, maybe break it into its own state. Orange County is geographically closer to LA, but they might culturally align better with San Diego.


Honestly, you could create another thirteen colonies out of California. I think taking a couple of steps to make sure that Silicon Valley and Hollywood aren't represented by the same senators would go a long way. And if you go that far, it's pretty clear that Jefferson is a completely different state anyway.

The area would get 4 extra senators and, due to the vagaries of Public Law 62-5, might also get some extra representatives.

/Public Law 62-5 also needs to go.
//We have three times the population of 1911, but the exact same number of House members?
 
2012-11-12 04:25:08 PM  

andrewagill: We have three times the population of 1911, but the exact same number of House members?


At the least, it would make lobbying efforts more difficult as you'd have to spread around more money.
 
2012-11-12 06:01:38 PM  

semiotix: vpb: You have states that are insignificant in the electoral college but have oversize representation in the senate. And you have states where it's the other way around.

If you could combine small states they could matter more in the electoral college, if you could divide states like New York, they would matter more in the Senate.

It's a matter of trading Senatorial influence for Presidential influence I think.

No. North and South Dakota have three electoral votes each. As the Great State of Unified Dakota, they'd have...three. Four at the most.

The Electoral College magnifies the importance of small states for exactly the same reason that the Senate does. This is why, except for Virginia/West Virginia in the chaos of the Civil War, no state has ever been split up. No other state wants to see their own power diluted like that. And it's why there will never be Unified Dakota--they'd be throwing away two Senators and a Representative for nothing.


Uh...Kentucky and Maine would argue you on that whole "no state has ever been split up" before, as would Virginia (TWICE) and Massachusetts (which actually lost MOST of its territory in a split).

You see, the first state (and arguably the one relatively non-controversial split of a state) was Kentucky, formed from the former Kentucky County of Virginia back in 1792 (and being only the first state both west of the Alleghenies and NOT part of the original fourteen settlements by the British; legal white settlement was technically only allowed after 1776 due to a British ban on settlement beyond the mountains). Even then it took eight years to actually be ratified as a state; it took the better part of six years for Virginia to agree, and two more years for the original Thirteen Founding States plus Vermont (which itself had recently joined the US after spending from 1776 to 1791 as a de facto independent country resulting from competing territorial claims by New York and New Hampshire).

The next state to enter the Union from a split of a pre-existing state was Maine, which actually was part of (and basically a quasi-territorial holding of) Massachusetts (!) until 1820 (until that point, it was the District of Maine); Maine was admitted as a free state as a compromise to allow admission of Missouri as a slave state (pretty much Missouri was NOT going to be admitted as "slave" unless there was an equivalent state admitted as a non-slaveholding state; this sort of "slave state/free state" gerrymandering continued right up to the point of the Civil War).

The third (and last) time a state was functionally split was during the Civil War itself, with West-By-God Virginia in an act which is really best described as a bit of Epic Legislative Trolling. :D

You see, Virginia (like a lot of other states on the border of the Confederacy like Kentucky and Missouri) had competing "Confederacy" and "Union" legislatures; quite unlike Kentucky and Missouri, Virginia's de facto government was the Confederate legislature, but there was a "rump government" of Union loyalists (the "Restored Government of Virginia"residing in the west part of the state with its provisional capital at Wheeling (much as Kentucky's provisional Confederate government resided in Bowling Green).

So pretty much the rump government got themselves formally recognised by the United States as the legitimate government of Virginia (!) (easy enough to do as they DID have de facto control of that part of the state)...and then THEMSELVES passed an initiative that they would approve the splitting of the Union-controlled section of Virginia off into the new state of West Virginia...and, well, seeing as they were considered the legitimate legislature of Virginia by the US government, this passed with ease and everyone involved smiled and nodded over the fact that the rump Virginia legislature had just approved splitting itself into the state of West Virginia which just happened to be the Union-controlled parts of Virginia. :D

As for what happened to the rump government--they ended up moving to Alexandria (right across the Potomac from DC) as a de facto "government in exile" until 1865 when they became the provisional government of post-Civil War Virginia.

(And it's probably because of THAT bit of creative Bending Of The Spirit Of The Law why we'll never functionally see a state created from the split of another state. :D The rural parts of states, despite the whargarbl they give over the urbanised parts of states, won't let them go--they want the tax revenue. :D)
 
2012-11-12 08:01:23 PM  
I guess if you want to hand over control of the senate to republicans you could this. All splitting texas would do is create 8 more senate seats for the republicans. Which would be better than the silliness farkers keep masturbating to which is letting texas secede. While texas is a lot of things its also the second largest economy in the united states quickly on path to over take california. Not to mention the home for most of the US refining and most of its usable oil, and much of the military.
 
2012-11-12 08:54:13 PM  

vpb: Each of which would be entitled to two senators, regardless of how small it's population?

Kevin72: That would give them 10 senators and 8 more electorial votes.

bmfderek: At least three of those five new states would be blue.


The light dawns. There might also be different governors gerrymandering the House districts.

The All-Powerful Atheismo: If that happened, they would end up getting more electoral votes per person. And they'd all vote republican.


You seem to have missed bmfderek's observation.
 
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