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(Santa Cruz Sentinel)   In the middle of a robbery, facing a 5'3" guy with a shotgun, store employee thinks to himself, "I can take this guy." And he does   (santacruzsentinel.com) divider line 118
    More: Hero, robbery, cross, Lobos, shotguns  
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19173 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2012 at 5:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-11 11:53:47 PM  

Nezorf: Heroes are typically people who risk their own lives for the lives of others


No they aren't. Achilles was a legendary hero. He got masses of his own people killed because he was offended at being cock-blocked. Alvin York was a hero. He was real good at killing people. Erwin Rommel was a hero. He was even better at killing people.

The dictionary doesn't support you. A hero is primary a man who is admired for his bravery. More broadly, and less commonly, he can be any man who is admired for his great deeds and qualities, but altruism (i.e. "risking their own lives for the lives of others") in nowhere specified under any definition of hero. That may be your private definition, but the bulk of the English speaking world has other ideas.

browntimmy: Okay, now let's say this hero has a wife and kids he's providing for...


They end up farked because his bravery. What's to understand? A brave act is a brave act, and it isn't made less brave because the outcome was shiatty. A lot of us would say that everyone would have been better off had Rommel been a whimpering coward rather than the hero he was and who even his enemies admired for his heroism.
 
2012-11-12 12:00:18 AM  

crypticsatellite: And then watch as the employee gets fired for standing up to the robber.


As he should be. There was no reason to take the risk.

Bacontastesgood: Every interaction I've had with reporters has led me to wonder how such dumb, ignorant, totally incapable people live from day to day. I mean, you'd expect them to accidentally put gas in the back seat of their car or something, then light up a celebratory cigarette. Or forget how to inhale air, walk out of a 10th story window, cut their hand off while preparing a meal, etc.


Yup. *EVERY* case where I have actually known the details there have been major errors in them. They've always gotten the general gist right, the details wrong.

ISO15693: Subby... if the man is actually shooting people, and you subdue him, that's being a hero. If you escalate a situtation like this, by attacking the guy with the weapon - that's just stupidity. You are essentially risking your life, and the life of everyone around you, to try and grab some glory. Thats the ultimate in selfish.


Yup. If all they want is money give it to them. That's what insurance is for.
 
2012-11-12 12:03:10 AM  
Youre missing the point Nezorf. Even had he been sprayed all over the wall for next to nothing, he would go out as a hero. I also admire people who risk their lives for chump change. Its not like this guy was a mere finger twitch from foolishly depriving his family from a son/brother/dad/etc.
 
2012-11-12 12:05:13 AM  
Who's to say the f*cker wouldn't have just shot him to avoid any witnesses?

Choose your fights.
 
2012-11-12 12:35:52 AM  

ShannonKW: Nezorf: Heroes are typically people who risk their own lives for the lives of others

No they aren't. Achilles was a legendary hero. He got masses of his own people killed because he was offended at being cock-blocked. Alvin York was a hero. He was real good at killing people. Erwin Rommel was a hero. He was even better at killing people.

The dictionary doesn't support you. A hero is primary a man who is admired for his bravery. More broadly, and less commonly, he can be any man who is admired for his great deeds and qualities, but altruism (i.e. "risking their own lives for the lives of others") in nowhere specified under any definition of hero. That may be your private definition, but the bulk of the English speaking world has other ideas.


Not going to argue dictionary semantics with you but all three of those fought in War. They were fighting for their country/freedom/fellow soldiers etc. Achilles isn't regarded as a hero for his fight over the woman. He was regarded as a hero prior to the Illiad and for his revenge on Hector. Did any of them fight for a truck of hay? A hat they lost? A coin purse?
 
2012-11-12 01:06:04 AM  

ShannonKW: A hero is primary a man who is admired for his bravery. More broadly, and less commonly, he can be any man who is admired for his great deeds and qualities, but altruism (i.e. "risking their own lives for the lives of others") in nowhere specified under any definition of hero. That may be your private definition, but the bulk of the English speaking world has other ideas.




What an act of heroism might look like to ShannonKW.
theintelhub.com
 
2012-11-12 01:07:41 AM  
 
2012-11-12 01:14:40 AM  

Nezorf: Not going to argue dictionary semantics with you but all three of those fought in War. They were fighting for their country/freedom/fellow soldiers etc. Achilles isn't regarded as a hero for his fight over the woman. He was regarded as a hero prior to the Illiad and for his revenge on Hector. Did any of them fight for a truck of hay? A hat they lost? A coin purse?


Dictionary semantics matter when you're proposing, as you are, that someone else is misusing a term. You mean to say that the robbery victim in TFA does not qualify as a hero, and the go-to reference for the meaning of common-use terms is the dictionary. The definitions there are not beamed to us from other planets but are taken from the mainstream of common use.

The most common idea of a hero is apparently that he has admirable traits, usually bravery, and/or has done great deeds. It is true that defending a cash till from an armed robber is not a great deed in terms of its material effect, but neither is saving a puppy from a burning building. Both acts are undeniably brave however, so lots of people are bound to hail them as heroic.

I think that your problem is that you simply don't admire this man's act, not that you question its bravery. Your idea of admirable courage may be restricted to risking life for other people or great causes, but you would have to do some work to show that that is the "typical" notion of heroism as you say it is, especially among people who are speaking loosely.
 
2012-11-12 02:18:29 AM  
I think the issue with the media not mentioning perp's ethnicity is that they are in the business of reporting facts, and the fact is, race is not a scientific moiety. Also, I don't think our would-be robber got into a discussion of his family history during this event.
 
2012-11-12 02:24:35 AM  

technicolor-misfit: What an act of heroism might look like to ShannonKW.


[pic of WTC in flames.jpg]

I was seeing the discourse moving in that direction some time ago. There's a familiar pattern of thought that I could see cropping up. Using Erwin Rommel as an example of heroism probably helped it along.

Americans, and to a lesser extent Brits, appear to have lost the ability to acknowledge virtue in (i.e. to respect) their enemies. To admit some good in an evil man is commonly taken among our people to be an act of making an excuse for his acts, or being an "apologist". Clearly, few in America consider the 9/11 attackers heroic or brave, though I do.

I can't find out who said it, but there was some TV personality who, in the wake of 9/11 and the invasion of Afghanistan, observed the bare fact that it takes more courage to crash a plane into a building than it does to launch a cruise missile from a position of perfect safety. This truth provoked howls of outrage and he was made to apologize for it, though I couldn't see what the fuss was. Those men were undeniably brave -- braver by far than the pilot of the Enola Gay who killed far more innocents and lived to tell about it. They were admirably brave men, admirably true to their cause, who sacrificed themselves to set in motion a series of events that brought upon their people the white-hot hatred of the greatest military power on Earth and culminated in the conquest of two Muslim nations. None of their enemies could have hurt their cause worse than they themselves did.

If there were a Hell, it might be punishment enough that they be permitted to see the consequences of their acts.

Nevertheless, it was a brave act, and they were brave men to do it. You're right (accidentally -- you were just trying to be a mud-slinging twat, I'm sure) that I admired it. When I saw the WTC attacks I thought it was magnificent, though I couldn't figure out what the hell they were trying to accomplish. I feel about the same way about Pearl Harbor. Among those of us who can still admire the virtues of our enemies, yes, the Bad Guy can still be a hero.
 
2012-11-12 03:27:49 AM  
I used to live on California ave and there is only one store I can think of and that's the little corner store owned by a Korean couple. Best kimchi in town stored in little mason jars. Csb.
 
2012-11-12 01:30:04 PM  

Gyrfalcon: havana_joe: ISO15693: Subby... if the man is actually shooting people, and you subdue him, that's being a hero. If you escalate a situtation like this, by attacking the guy with the weapon - that's just stupidity. You are essentially risking your life, and the life of everyone around you, to try and grab some glory. Thats the ultimate in selfish.


It's a lot better to deride people for having the nuts to occasionally take a chance you won't take for yourself, than to try to protect your life and property.



Or, it's a lot better to relate the fact that 20 years ago, I would have been stupid enough to jump the guy in a display of studly bravery, risking the lives of those around me on the 1 in 10000 chance the guy was actually likely to shoot, whereas now I have the experience and perspective to understand that the risk is in no way worth it. The irony here is that it takes a lot more "balls" to choose the long view, in the moment when your hormones are tlel you to do something stupid and selfish.

Of course, the adolescent response to this is "haha old dude, you just dont have what it takes, screw your thoughtful perspective, kill 'em all and let god sort them out. If the guy shoots everyone, at least I'll die looking brave"
 
2012-11-12 03:10:50 PM  

ISO15693: Gyrfalcon: havana_joe: ISO15693: Subby... if the man is actually shooting people, and you subdue him, that's being a hero. If you escalate a situtation like this, by attacking the guy with the weapon - that's just stupidity. You are essentially risking your life, and the life of everyone around you, to try and grab some glory. Thats the ultimate in selfish.


It's a lot better to deride people for having the nuts to occasionally take a chance you won't take for yourself, than to try to protect your life and property.



Or, it's a lot better to relate the fact that 20 years ago, I would have been stupid enough to jump the guy in a display of studly bravery, risking the lives of those around me on the 1 in 10000 chance the guy was actually likely to shoot, whereas now I have the experience and perspective to understand that the risk is in no way worth it. The irony here is that it takes a lot more "balls" to choose the long view, in the moment when your hormones are tlel you to do something stupid and selfish.

Of course, the adolescent response to this is "haha old dude, you just dont have what it takes, screw your thoughtful perspective, kill 'em all and let god sort them out. If the guy shoots everyone, at least I'll die looking brave"


I agree. What sounds better to you?
40 years later your grandson telling the story: "My grandpa died defending a 7-11" or actually meeting your grandson?
 
2012-11-12 03:19:13 PM  

crypticsatellite: Who's to say the f*cker wouldn't have just shot him to avoid any witnesses?

Choose your fights.



Yeah, I know right, its not like 99.9% of convenience stores in our country have surveillance cameras or anything.
 
2012-11-12 04:00:09 PM  
My employer pays me a lot more than this guy and there is *nothing* heroic I would do for my employer if my life would be in any way at risk. NOTHING. EVER. I'm sure 99.99% of my fellow employees and shareholders would feel exactly the same way.

My takeaway is that either people who work crap jobs are stupid or they are desperate for a way to distinguish themselves. Because there is no circumstance in which your bosses money is worth any risk of injury to any person, period.

OTOH people who do shiat like this make the world a tiny bit safer for the rest of us. They're stupid for doing it IMHO, but thanks.
 
2012-11-12 04:18:39 PM  

D_Evans45: crypticsatellite: Who's to say the f*cker wouldn't have just shot him to avoid any witnesses?

Choose your fights.


Yeah, I know right, its not like 99.9% of convenience stores in our country have surveillance cameras or anything.


So, then who's to say he wouldn't have shot him anyway because he's a deranged person.

Is that better for you?
 
2012-11-12 05:00:28 PM  
You can sit here and come up with alternate scenarios all day, fact is dude was a finger twitch from being sprayed all over the wall by a shotgun for next to nothing (contents of a cash register are nowhere near a humans life). He's just lucky enough that the coward holding up the store didnt have the balls or intent to kill anyone in the first place, that is the only reason he is still alive. 99% of the time the deranged person is going to shoot when someone reaches for their gun, he just happened to be facing a midget with no real crime skills.

This headline could have so easily become "Dumbass" tag : Clerk is blown away to discover that trying to pull shotguns from deranged robbers is not a good idea. More at 11." He wouldnt be so valiant then, he'd be the dumbass who got sprayed over the wall for chump change. "What a heroic action! Too bad he died, but what a courageous human being to die and leave a family behind over the contents of a cash register!"

Dont tell me, you also voted for Romney?
 
2012-11-13 08:54:12 PM  

ideamaster: The trick is to say those three magic words.


But they're VERY easy to remember.

Klaatu...

... verata...

...

...

...

...
 
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