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(Kansas City)   Tea Party economics in the state of Kansas have resulted in massive deficits, draining of the rainy day fund, and set up massive cuts to education and social services. The Tea Party solution: tax cuts   (kansascity.com) divider line 257
    More: Fail, rainy day fund, tax cuts, social services, Sam Brownback, bond credit rating, deficits  
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6928 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Nov 2012 at 7:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-11 07:18:56 AM
And deregulation. Don't forget deregulation.
 
2012-11-11 07:26:44 AM
So, what you're saying is that the Teabaggers have no idea what they're doing?

Quelle surprise!

Maybe you should vote with your own damn brains instead of what some gibbering moron on TV or AM radio tells you, eh?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-11 07:43:16 AM
You mean cutting your income doesn't help you pay bills? Sounds like socialisms!
 
2012-11-11 07:45:56 AM

vpb: You mean cutting your income doesn't help you pay bills? Sounds like socialisms!


Well, to be fair there is a case to be made for a counter-intuitive "lowering taxes increases revenue" argument. At least, to some degree. After all, with a 100% or 0% tax rate, your revenues would be quite low. I would think that finding that "sweet spot" for the highest revenue ought to be the goal, though finding that is probably near impossible.
 
2012-11-11 07:48:07 AM
Let them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.
 
2012-11-11 07:49:22 AM
Of course, according to the comments, its all Obama's fault.
 
2012-11-11 07:51:10 AM
Self destructive behavior at it's most obvious.
 
2012-11-11 07:51:11 AM

Vodka Zombie: So, what you're saying is that the Teabaggers have no idea what they're doing?


Don't forget the science education.
 
2012-11-11 07:51:12 AM

Kittypie070: Let them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.


and this has been what I've been saying about Obama supporters.

raise the debt, tell people taxes will not be raised.

I don't see how both can be done yet.

 
2012-11-11 07:53:12 AM

Kittypie070: Let them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.


Hey, I'm not stupid. I voted for people who didn't support his ridiculous tax cut plan. I talked up how idiotic it was to my friends and asked them to share the message. Hell, a not insignificant number of Republicans I talk to actually agree that it's ridiculous. Unfortunately, there are a bunch of farking lunatics out on the west end of the state who want the state to look like a Christian version of Pakistan.
 
2012-11-11 07:53:19 AM

nekom: vpb: You mean cutting your income doesn't help you pay bills? Sounds like socialisms!

Well, to be fair there is a case to be made for a counter-intuitive "lowering taxes increases revenue" argument. At least, to some degree. After all, with a 100% or 0% tax rate, your revenues would be quite low. I would think that finding that "sweet spot" for the highest revenue ought to be the goal, though finding that is probably near impossible.


Well done. Now, if you can make that insight quantitative you will have rediscovered the Laffer curve.

By the way, perfectly optimizing for revenue probably is impossible because the tax rates themselves feed forward into the system causing behavior to change, so the system is non-linear and quite possibly has no stable points.

The good news is, we don't need to achieve the highest revenue, or anything remotely close to it, in order to fund everything that government actually needs to do. The bad news is, if we only need to raise (say) 50% of the available revenue, determining which 50% to raise is a huge political problem, which is even harder to solve than the mathematical problem.
 
2012-11-11 07:54:13 AM

nekom: And deregulation. Don't forget deregulation.


Darn tootin'

Wer gonna cut them taxes, then wer gonna get rid of them JOB KILLIN regulations, and then...


..and then wer gonna...

..did I say cut taxes? I did? good.

...and we're gonna get rid of them JOB KILLIN regulations.

Might be a good idea to invade I-ran too and have the Supremes Court illegalate Mooselims.
 
2012-11-11 07:55:07 AM

Vodka Zombie: So, what you're saying is that the Teabaggers have no idea what they're doing?

Quelle surprise!

Maybe you should vote with your own damn brains instead of what some gibbering moron on TV or AM radio tells you, eh?


There's always a few "color-me-shocked!" posts in every one of these threads. These conclusions may be obvious to you and me but clearly they are anything but to more salt-of-the-earth (morons) folk. It just sucks because these policies ruin real people's lives but most of them are either too stupid or too outnumbered to do anything about it. That makes me a sad panda.
 
2012-11-11 07:56:08 AM

nekom: vpb: You mean cutting your income doesn't help you pay bills? Sounds like socialisms!

Well, to be fair there is a case to be made for a counter-intuitive "lowering taxes increases revenue" argument. At least, to some degree. After all, with a 100% or 0% tax rate, your revenues would be quite low. I would think that finding that "sweet spot" for the highest revenue ought to be the goal, though finding that is probably near impossible.


There is a counter argument, that a state needs to have good roads, good schools and other services to attract tax paying population. Business that requires educated workforce will slowly move away thus reducing tax revenue further. Nobody has ever suggested 100%. Sweet spot is not at the point where you get most revenue to the states it's where the population feels it get most for the taxes paid.
 
2012-11-11 07:58:26 AM

vegasj: Kittypie070: Let them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.

and this has been what I've been saying about Obama supporters.

raise the debt, tell people taxes will not be raised.

I don't see how both can be done yet.


At least for the time being, this is how it can be done. We can borrow money for twenty years and pay back less than we borrowed today. That means that if we were to cut spending or raise taxes to close the deficit, it would actually cost us MORE than it would to just plain borrow the money. Not doing it when the market is practically begging us to do it is insane. Why would you pay ten bucks for a product when you can pay nine bucks for the exact same product just a block down the road?
 
2012-11-11 08:01:06 AM

nekom: And deregulation. Don't forget deregulation.


just trust Jesus. Everything will be okay.
 
2012-11-11 08:03:13 AM

nmemkha: Of course, according to the comments, its all Obama's fault.


Well, it is. "Obama" is not a person.
"Obama" is a symbolic repository for all things evil.
"Obama" is that which causes the cow to sicken, and the milk to sour.
"Obama" is a dark cloud of homosexuality, socialism, atheism, Islam, and Communism that is overrunning the country.
"Obama" is the Devil.
 
2012-11-11 08:04:06 AM

nekom: vpb: You mean cutting your income doesn't help you pay bills? Sounds like socialisms!

Well, to be fair there is a case to be made for a counter-intuitive "lowering taxes increases revenue" argument. At least, to some degree. After all, with a 100% or 0% tax rate, your revenues would be quite low. I would think that finding that "sweet spot" for the highest revenue ought to be the goal, though finding that is probably near impossible.


The problem is that these people don't try to find that spot with any system that would make even the slightest amount of sense (like empiricisms, reading tea leaves or rolling dice), there only ever is one direction to look for that spot for them and it is down. They can fathom of any circumstance when lowering taxes would not be the right thing to do including when the tax rate is actually zero.

Under some circumstance jumping from a tall building makes sense (like the building being on fire and a group of fire-fighters holding a jump net down below or perhaps when you are wearing a parachute and know what you are doing) but that doesn't mean that jumping of buildings is always the right thing to do regardless of circumstances..
 
2012-11-11 08:05:25 AM

nekom: And deregulation. Don't forget deregulation.


Worked for J.P. Morgan, Rockefeller, Carnegie and all them nice guys a little while ago, let's bring those days back!
 
2012-11-11 08:07:01 AM
I don't even want to talk about this...

We have to suffer through major embarrassments like our Board of Education and Brownback...
I have to sit helplessly as the Koch bros. primary the hell out of any moderate republican candidate...
Then watch them roll to victory based on the (R) next to their name...

My beloved state is becoming the Tea Party dream - a place where a lack of basic services, government-licensed privatization of public property and regressive social polices make for a "job creator" paradise of low taxes and regulations...

You know what's funny - conservatives like to blame liberalism (or more generally a secular society) for a decline in "traditional values" but their policies hurt small cities and towns (bastions of more conservative ideas) by cutting public education and blocking access to quality healthcare.

The result is a under-educated, under-employable population that will, in my opinion, be much more likely to experience high-divorce rates, teen pregnancy and drug use. 

/I know, I talked about it anyway...
 
2012-11-11 08:08:07 AM
Don't forget. These are people who will reject empirical evidence because "it feels right in my gut". Facts and logic do not apply here.

When faced with a declining economy, they will always fall back to "well, we just didn't do it HARD enough" and will continue down the path to destruction, at a much faster pace.

/who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows him?
//Obi-wan'd
 
2012-11-11 08:09:00 AM
[pawslaps vegasj]

Did I ask for your opinion, buffoon?
 
2012-11-11 08:09:34 AM

Vodka Zombie: So, what you're saying is that the Teabaggers have no idea what they're doing?


Um, did you miss the headline where it said and set up massive cuts to education and social services? Sounds like they got exactly what they wanted.
 
2012-11-11 08:12:03 AM
Sometimes the best punishment you can exact upon someone is to give them exactly what they want.
 
2012-11-11 08:13:10 AM
Point of reference:

Kansas Agricultural Subsidies:
$15.4 billion in subsidies 1995-2011.
$9.07 billion in commodity subsidies.
$2.96 billion in crop insurance subsidies.
$2.27 billion in conservation subsidies.
$1.13 billion in disaster subsidies.
Kansas ranking: 6 of 50 States
 
2012-11-11 08:13:41 AM

wildcatben: I don't even want to talk about this...

We have to suffer through major embarrassments like our Board of Education and Brownback...
I have to sit helplessly as the Koch bros. primary the hell out of any moderate republican candidate...
Then watch them roll to victory based on the (R) next to their name...

My beloved state is becoming the Tea Party dream - a place where a lack of basic services, government-licensed privatization of public property and regressive social polices make for a "job creator" paradise of low taxes and regulations...

You know what's funny - conservatives like to blame liberalism (or more generally a secular society) for a decline in "traditional values" but their policies hurt small cities and towns (bastions of more conservative ideas) by cutting public education and blocking access to quality healthcare.

The result is a under-educated, under-employable population that will, in my opinion, be much more likely to experience high-divorce rates, teen pregnancy and drug use. 

/I know, I talked about it anyway...


Move to Lawrence. We're trying to fight against the state becoming Brownbackistan.
 
2012-11-11 08:17:50 AM

FlameDuck: There is a counter argument, that a state needs to have good roads, good schools and other services to attract tax paying population. Business that requires educated workforce will slowly move away thus reducing tax revenue further. Nobody has ever suggested 100%. Sweet spot is not at the point where you get most revenue to the states it's where the population feels it get most for the taxes paid.


That's certainly true as well. "You didn't build that" could more accurately be put as "You didn't build that in a vacuum." Any business in America relies HEAVILY on infrastructure, no question about that. And yes, of course 100% would never be suggested as the "sweet spot", for the same reason that 0% wouldn't either. But I would think that you would want to try to approach higher revenue. And of course who pays more or less is subject to whether you are liberal or conservative on that.
 
2012-11-11 08:18:05 AM
"Conservatives will own Kansas budget mess"


Um...when have conservatives ever "owned" any mess?
 
2012-11-11 08:18:56 AM
You really didn't buy the whole "fiscal conservatism" thing from fiscal conservatives did you? Every Republican "conservative" administration in the last 2 plus decades has raised both the deficit and the debt.

But idiot voters keep buying into it. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
 
2012-11-11 08:21:44 AM
The fallacy is the assertion by the commie editorialist that the state of Kansas has a responsibility to pay for all these commie dreams of his. Kansas needs to purge it's remaining liberals and it will be a utopia.
 
2012-11-11 08:22:21 AM

nmemkha: Of course, according to the comments, its all Obama's fault.


Of course. They are probably screaming: 'Its all Obama's fault! He should have known how stupid we are and stopped us!'
 
2012-11-11 08:23:22 AM

nekom: FlameDuck: There is a counter argument, that a state needs to have good roads, good schools and other services to attract tax paying population. Business that requires educated workforce will slowly move away thus reducing tax revenue further. Nobody has ever suggested 100%. Sweet spot is not at the point where you get most revenue to the states it's where the population feels it get most for the taxes paid.

That's certainly true as well. "You didn't build that" could more accurately be put as "You didn't build that in a vacuum." Any business in America relies HEAVILY on infrastructure, no question about that. And yes, of course 100% would never be suggested as the "sweet spot", for the same reason that 0% wouldn't either. But I would think that you would want to try to approach higher revenue. And of course who pays more or less is subject to whether you are liberal or conservative on that.


More importantly - they depend upon the existence of an organized, lawful, civilized society. One in which property may be legally owned and protected, in which contracts can be made and enforced, and in which some basic human needs are met. And this requires government.
And if you are going to have a really big civilization, like ours, it's going to take a fairly big government to run it.
So one good step to adulthood for Americans would be to cross the phrase "big government" off the official list of dirty words.
 
2012-11-11 08:23:35 AM
This like the House Republicans holding the country hostage is in a lot of ways the fault of the "reality based media" and their failure to call out the wreckless fiscal policy of deregulation, tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts, and more tax cuts out of fears of accusations of being biased.

Spending the reserve fund down to zero. Unlike many states, Kansas has no constitutional requirement to maintain a "rainy day" fund. Using the $470 million currently in the bank would provide a temporary partial fix, but for one year only. Kansas' structural budget imbalance won't go away unless the state finds more permanent sources of revenue. Eventually the imbalance and absence of a reserve fund could affect the state's bond rating.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but like with Medicare and Social Security it seems to me that the "job creator" class sees this hunk of cash and it makes their mouths water. How do they get it? Well if you can't just take it, buy politicians who indirectly funnel it to you with disproportionate tax cuts in your favor while starving the government until they have to spend it. Of course you slowly break down the fabric of American society into some bastardized corproate caste system, but that is the point also.
 
2012-11-11 08:26:26 AM

wildcatben: I don't even want to talk about this...

We have to suffer through major embarrassments like our Board of Education and Brownback...
I have to sit helplessly as the Koch bros. primary the hell out of any moderate republican candidate...
Then watch them roll to victory based on the (R) next to their name...

My beloved state is becoming the Tea Party dream - a place where a lack of basic services, government-licensed privatization of public property and regressive social polices make for a "job creator" paradise of low taxes and regulations...

You know what's funny - conservatives like to blame liberalism (or more generally a secular society) for a decline in "traditional values" but their policies hurt small cities and towns (bastions of more conservative ideas) by cutting public education and blocking access to quality healthcare.

The result is a under-educated, under-employable population that will, in my opinion, be much more likely to experience high-divorce rates, teen pregnancy and drug use. 

/I know, I talked about it anyway...


It needs to be repeated. At least the hyper-rich will be fine in their gated communities.
 
2012-11-11 08:27:05 AM

Noam Chimpsky: The fallacy is the assertion by the commie editorialist that the state of Kansas has a responsibility to pay for all these commie dreams of his. Kansas needs to purge it's remaining liberals and it will be a utopia.


Yeah. That's probably not how this is going to shake out.
 
2012-11-11 08:27:46 AM

jso2897: So one good step to adulthood for Americans would be to cross the phrase "big government" off the official list of dirty words.


Depends on the context. Where government is wasteful, it should be fixed. As a lefty, I believe that taxes should be as low as possible while still taking care of our citizens, and I do believe that the wealthy should pay more. But even I will admit that there are some government programs in bad need of reform, or outright cancellation.

But you're absolutely right, without the rule of law and the structure of private property, any form of capitalism would be unworkable.
 
2012-11-11 08:27:50 AM

nmemkha: Of course, according to the comments, its all Obama's fault.


I've never known a Republican to take responsibility for their mistakes.
 
2012-11-11 08:28:50 AM

nekom: Well, to be fair there is a case to be made for a counter-intuitive "lowering taxes increases revenue" argument. At least, to some degree. After all, with a 100% or 0% tax rate, your revenues would be quite low. I would think that finding that "sweet spot" for the highest revenue ought to be the goal, though finding that is probably near impossible.


The problem is that most Americans struggle with grade school arithmetic while modeling something as complex as our economy can only reasonably be approximated by a set of differential equations. Laffer may have been an accomplished economist but his "law" is something that every Calculus 101 student has learned since there was Calculus 101; it's a property of just about any real continuous function, and the response to it should have been "well farkin duh, maybe you should slow down on the beers, lightweight".
 
2012-11-11 08:32:09 AM

Noam Chimpsky: The fallacy is the assertion by the commie editorialist that the state of Kansas has a responsibility to pay for all these commie dreams of his. Kansas needs to purge it's remaining liberals and it will be a utopia.


Is this a Mike Lowell thing? It's a Mike Lowell thing.
 
2012-11-11 08:34:10 AM

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: Noam Chimpsky: The fallacy is the assertion by the commie editorialist that the state of Kansas has a responsibility to pay for all these commie dreams of his. Kansas needs to purge it's remaining liberals and it will be a utopia.

Is this a Mike Lowell thing? It's a Mike Lowell thing.


Perhaps that's something like Mars being a perfectly fine world without any life on it..
 
2012-11-11 08:34:14 AM

Monkeyhouse Zendo: nekom:

The problem is that most Americans people screaming the loudest struggle with grade home school arithmetic ...


FTFY
 
2012-11-11 08:34:24 AM

Milo Minderbinder: wildcatben: I don't even want to talk about this...

We have to suffer through major embarrassments like our Board of Education and Brownback...
I have to sit helplessly as the Koch bros. primary the hell out of any moderate republican candidate...
Then watch them roll to victory based on the (R) next to their name...

My beloved state is becoming the Tea Party dream - a place where a lack of basic services, government-licensed privatization of public property and regressive social polices make for a "job creator" paradise of low taxes and regulations...

You know what's funny - conservatives like to blame liberalism (or more generally a secular society) for a decline in "traditional values" but their policies hurt small cities and towns (bastions of more conservative ideas) by cutting public education and blocking access to quality healthcare.

The result is a under-educated, under-employable population that will, in my opinion, be much more likely to experience high-divorce rates, teen pregnancy and drug use. 

/I know, I talked about it anyway...

It needs to be repeated. At least the hyper-rich will be fine in their gated communities.


For awhile anyways
 
2012-11-11 08:35:31 AM

Kittypie070: Let them suffer the consequences of their own stupidity.


And they'll convince themselves that it's all Obama's fault.
 
2012-11-11 08:37:07 AM

Serious Black: Move to Lawrence. We're trying to fight against the state becoming Brownbackistan.


[Looks at suggestion...]
[Looks at own user name...]

No thank you!

/actually where I live isn't really up to me
//keep up the good fight, you have allies in the south of the state!
 
2012-11-11 08:37:30 AM
It's funny - there's an article whining about the "budget shortfall." There's a bunch of you Farkers whining about those awful Tea Party people who messed with the inviolable Kansas tax scheme.

Oddly, there's not much mention of the $13.4 billion dollar budget. Which could be cut by a mere five percent to save that $707 million. It's a shame the Kansas state budget is so well-designed that they can't manage to cut five percent off of it within a year or so.

Oh, wait...
 
2012-11-11 08:41:35 AM

Hobodeluxe: nekom: And deregulation. Don't forget deregulation.

just trust Jesus. Everything will be okay.


Sadly I hear this a lot.
 
2012-11-11 08:42:45 AM
czetie:
Well done. Now, if you can make that insight quantitative you will have rediscovered the Laffer curve.


With that line, your credentials as an idiot are complete. All the cuter, as you obviously think yourself an intellectual of some sort.
 
2012-11-11 08:47:56 AM

cirby: Oddly, there's not much mention of the $13.4 billion dollar budget. Which could be cut by a mere five percent to save that $707 million. It's a shame the Kansas state budget is so well-designed that they can't manage to cut five percent off of it within a year or so


Oh they'll find someplace to cut that $707M. They'll find it in places like medicaid, education, child protective services, welfare, and university funding. Next year they'll be faced with a similar situation and so will go on another round of cuts and repeat this annually until the state is an ignorant, impoverished backwater that subsists on federal farm subsidies.
 
2012-11-11 08:49:56 AM

Serious Black: Move to Lawrence. We're trying to fight against the state becoming Brownbackistan.


Not doing so hot of a job at it. Couldn't even keep the 3rd District Democrat.
 
2012-11-11 08:52:49 AM

jso2897: Noam Chimpsky: The fallacy is the assertion by the commie editorialist that the state of Kansas has a responsibility to pay for all these commie dreams of his. Kansas needs to purge it's remaining liberals and it will be a utopia.

Yeah. That's probably not how this is going to shake out.


You want Kansans to be taxed to finance the parasitic existence of those who can't or won't finance their own existence. Cutting taxes effectively chokes off and purges these parasites and improves the quality of the state. Obama gets revenge against conservatives at the federal level and conservatives need to get revenge against the parasite left where they can, and that is at the state level in these liberal states.
 
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