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(Daily Mail)   Not News: Two cute teens fall in love. Fark: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 399
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32482 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2012 at 2:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-12 12:31:19 AM  

runcible spork: What I'm saying is that although more people are now educated about TG/TS issues, it's slow going and it could be happening faster and in a less encumbered context. Historically those issues may have, or may have at least appeared to have "coincided with [those of] the LGB" group, but that's no longer necessary.


Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

Anyway good luck with that.
 
2012-11-12 12:31:34 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.

I've witnessed hostility from gay people against transgender people. Many times.

As for the "fluid" poseurs/provocateurs, I mean the people who say, "today (or at this moment) I feel female, so I'm going to use the ladies' room
in this here public place," regardless as to how they were presenting themselves. It's farcical. This was an issue when California was considering some legislative measure about public restrooms (was it to make them all unisex? can't recall). I mean the people who aren't really transgender but just get a kick out of challenging society's gender expectations, like real-life trolls. They generate much more reactive animosity rather than foster understanding and acceptance. Unfortunately, society is not yet at the point where it's ready to be truly and fully gender-blind. It's a nice dream, but we aren't even close.


Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:43 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.

I've witnessed hostility from gay people against transgender people. Many times.

As for the "fluid" poseurs/provocateurs, I mean the people who say, "today (or at this moment) I feel female, so I'm going to use the ladies' room
in this here public place," regardless as to how they were presenting themselves. It's farcical. This was an issue when California was considering some legislative measure about public restrooms (was it to make them all unisex? can't recall). I mean the people who aren't really transgender but just get a kick out of challenging society's gender expectations, like real-life trolls. They generate much more reactive animosity rather than foster understanding and acceptance. Unfortunately, society is not yet at the point where it's ready to be truly and fully gender-blind. It's a nice dream, but we aren't even close.


As an intersex individual who is just as bi-gendered as I am bi-sexual, allow me a vibrant "screw you!"

How farcical is it for a man who thinks he's a woman to use a woman's bathroom. Oh, if society ever gets to that point where we are so gender-blind . . .

Yes, there are real life trolls out there. But you've crossed the line from talking about just one or two trolls to implying that a whole group of people are trolls just because you don't agree with them. Take a look at the irony there, and get back to me.
 
2012-11-12 12:36:02 AM  

rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.



I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.
 
2012-11-12 12:39:20 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.


No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.
 
2012-11-12 12:45:04 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?



I'm not arguing that understanding isn't growing, just that it's happening too slowly. And yes, I do believe it's easier for people to grasp the concept of homosexuality than transsexuality, and I do believe that gay rights are moving faster than recognition and acceptance of those who are transgender. And that at this point, the LGB faction is eclipsing and obscuring them from public understanding.

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

More countries than just those two. Yet here in the US, it's still a huge problem (although there are a growing number of companies who have been proactive (damn I hate that word) and have specifically allowed insurance coverage for hormone therapy and SRS. As we all know, our insurance system, despite the gains of the Affordable Care Act, is still a huge mess. It needs to be uncoupled from employers (a relic from the post-WWII boom) and single-payer needs to be implemented. To start.


Anyway good luck with that.

?

/ EiP too.
 
2012-11-12 12:46:10 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.


I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.
 
2012-11-12 12:47:05 AM  

rynthetyn: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.



If there were unisex bathrooms everywhere, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat? It's stupid.
 
2012-11-12 12:52:04 AM  

ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.



I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?
 
2012-11-12 12:52:48 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.

If there were unisex bathrooms everywhere, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat? It's stupid.


Seriously?

"If men could dress as women, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat?"


I won't deny anyone their right to blend in, and hide. If someone doesn't want to out what gender they are, fine. But those of us who do choose to step out of line with society are what makes society listen. Were you not arguing that T needs to stop hiding behind LG&B. But when someone else stops hiding in a way you don't like, they are just 'goofy' and worse . . .

are we being trolled, here?
 
2012-11-12 12:55:54 AM  

runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?


It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.
 
2012-11-12 12:59:57 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?

It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.



I suspect that underneath it all, we're on the same side of this argument. Really. Plus, it's a great metaphor for the subject.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.

Oh, do not get me started on the blatant and intense misogyny of drag queens.

And now I'm trundling off to bed.
 
2012-11-12 01:09:17 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.


I know right, I think I know what this is but I can't say for sure.
 
2012-11-12 01:20:39 AM  

metal_gear: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Next you'll blame them for Hurricane Sandy, right? Why don't you and God go help some of those unfortunate people and leave these two the fark alone?


Silly Jesus is the most successful humor troll I have ever seen on Fark. I don't even think this is just troll, he's giving me Tom, Bert, and William Huggins. I like it!
 
2012-11-12 01:24:27 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?

It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.


Yea and throwing homosexuals and trans people into mental institutions was also sorta provocative, and they didn't care which was which.
/And thanks Marsha P. Johnson for throwing that first brick.
 
2012-11-12 01:26:03 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ykarie: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I know right, I think I know what this is but I can't say for sure.


I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

So I'll count it as runcible spork being tired, and let it go. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. And the argument that transgender individuals need to get society to see that gender and sexuality are separate is an issue I think I agree with runcible spork on. I disagree that LGBT needs to be broken into LGB and T someplace else, but turning it from a 1 dimensional Kensey sexuality scale to a 2D grid would be a start.
 
2012-11-12 01:26:18 AM  

alienated: Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.

This might be long.
Hey there, I am late to reply to this as I took a good while to try and come up with something that would not sound odd, or creepy.
So, here goes. I dont know you, at all, but I am pretty sure it was mentioned for the Oceanside Fark party that you are Trans, and I thought ' wow, more than one of my kind at a fark party' ? However, I could not get a replacement so I had to skip it.
I am also mtf, which i am sure has shocked many fark Modmins and others that now that I came out after a while- I have met over the years at meet ups / parties/ sports by brooks impromtu things, as I only accepted what I knew at 4 when I hit 40. There is no way even in a really dark room that I can pass- im 5 11 and I am skinny but I have a pooch belly. I pluck eyebrows and shave- just for me. I am mostly in guy mode / androgen mode as I have, well, after this long a life- mostly boy clothes- plus- makeup on a daily basis is kinda of a pita.
Do I feel bad because of the mistake that was made at the human factory ? Yes.
Do I think of just ending it ? Yes.
But, then who would feed gordie or mammaberry ? (cats) . Who would take madhonib to her physical therapy ? IDK if you are into the bar scene at all- I mostly am not, but, at the Oxwood, in the Valley of San Fernando, you can meet plenty of non pass trans folks who just do not give a damn about being non pass/ pass , and many of them are good people.
I would have emailed this but, well- you have a private email.
I am just saying to please do not just roll over / give up.
Take that as you wish, Lass. 
And please- be well.


Well, you just made a straight girl with no gender or sexuality issues but a boatload of other ones fall madly in love with you at Boobies. Well done! :)
Xoxo I hope Myria hears you.
 
2012-11-12 01:29:08 AM  

alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.


When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.
 
2012-11-12 01:33:31 AM  

ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy.

Just shouldn't kid themselves.


Rimshot! Paragon's here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitress, who is most assuredly a transsexual. And a really farking hot one!

"Life's not worth a damn till you can shout OUT LOUD I am what I am!"
 
2012-11-12 01:41:11 AM  

ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.


Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )
 
2012-11-12 01:45:06 AM  

ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.


Oh, the joys of being a stealth gamer. The stories I could tell about things said when straight-cisgendered folks thought no one was listening.

But, on the other side, my current guild in EQ (yes, kickin old skool) went on a descriptive rant one evening because a new guy mentioned a love of 'tranny porn' (sex was being discussed, so the porn part wasn't a problem). I never knew how many allies I had there until this poor newb learned the difference between transgender, transsexual, and girls with strap-ons who like money. I barely had to raise an objection to the word before everyone else leapt to, and even though he tried the "Oh, are you trans, I didn't mean it that way if you are" line, that only made things worse for him. I am not sure if the leader removed him for that comment, or if he left after the tongue lashing he received. And those guild mates never asked me about my gender, even since.

/knew they were friends before that, they became family that day.
 
2012-11-12 01:47:45 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )


maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.
 
2012-11-12 01:54:39 AM  

ykarie: tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )

maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.


Well, I didn't really think otherwise, but it's just who doesn't like oral, well, if it's done right.
 
2012-11-12 01:59:48 AM  

ykarie: tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )

maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.


ciberido has already mentioned in this very thread that she is bisexual.  But there's a difference between knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.

I just find it funny that almost every time you hear homophobes pontificate about gay men they go on and on and on about anal sex, but when I actually listen to gay men talk about their sex lives, I hear so much more about fellatio. It really makes me wonder why homophobes are so fabulously obsessed with anal sex.
 
2012-11-12 02:02:16 AM  

queenalice: Well, you just made a straight girl with no gender or sexuality issues but a boatload of other ones fall madly in love with you at Boobies. Well done! :)
Xoxo I hope Myria hears you.


Um, ty, and will ask you to fwd positive things.In many ways , i hate trans threads in some ways. In another way- it is a way for me to help someone. as flawed as i am .
All of that said- I know for a fact that you have a huge heart, and brain, which is nice.
And I wish you Merry Holidays, to steal from and old friend.
 
2012-11-12 02:21:44 AM  

ciberido: ciberido has already mentioned in this very thread that she is bisexual.  But there's a difference between knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.

I just find it funny that almost every time you hear homophobes pontificate about gay men they go on and on and on about anal sex, but when I actually listen to gay men talk about their sex lives, I hear so much more about fellatio. It really makes me wonder why homophobes are so fabulously obsessed with anal sex.


You expect me to read the whole thread? Next you'll be wanting me to read the articles too, for context or some reason. ;-)

Okay, it's late enough, I'll be back in the morning if the trolls haven't shown up before I wake. And if they have, i'll be back with an orange highlighter to make sure I don't argue with them twice.
 
2012-11-12 04:28:56 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: I really don't understand anything you're saying right now. I know it's probably my point of view that is keeping me from it but really how are trans right's lagging behind right now? I don't understand your argument.

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I think transgender rights are lagging behind gay rights because (a) they got off to a later start as far as public awareness is concerned, and (2) transsexuality remains less widely understood, really understood, by the general populace than homosexuality; continuing to be yoked to the LGB "community" will not advance such understanding.


ok, I get it.... you're supporting both the advancement of trans rights as well as gay rights, and just happen to think that since they are such different phenomena, they ought to be treated separately, and promoted in parallel. Fair enough.

However, there are good reasons why LGB is lumped in with T, and it's because it's easier to convince people of a basic concept rather than a particular group. The basic concept is : "However consenting adults want to live their lives, as long as their not hurting anyone, shouldn't be a basis for discrimination."

This basic idea resonates with people, and disagreeing with it makes anyone uneasy, even the fundies, and it has gained enough traction among the libertarians to make it hard for anyone on the political right to go against this. This is what unites the LGBT community into one thing, and anytime smaller groups are united into one larger group they are more effective in bringing about social change.

Again, your heart is in the right place, so please disregard my former sarcasm, but strategically, I still don't see a good reason to break up the LGBT community into smaller parts -it's small enough already.
 
2012-11-12 05:03:18 AM  
ugh... can't believe I just did that:

cassanovascotian: "However consenting adults want to live their lives, as long as they're not hurting anyone, shouldn't be a basis for discrimination."

 
2012-11-12 05:31:05 AM  

ciberido: knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.


No kidding ?
 
2012-11-12 06:40:37 AM  
True consensual love is so damn hard to come by in this world. Who am I to begrudge what physical form genuine emotional love takes? Sincere best to 'em.
 
2012-11-12 06:52:52 AM  
We need more (not less) love in this world.
 
2012-11-12 07:18:51 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: What I'm saying is that although more people are now educated about TG/TS issues, it's slow going and it could be happening faster and in a less encumbered context. Historically those issues may have, or may have at least appeared to have "coincided with [those of] the LGB" group, but that's no longer necessary.

Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?



Just a quickie before I'm out the door this morning. This occurred to me in the shower. As demonstration of how transsexuality lags behind gay rights in the public sphere, let's use an example close to hand as evidence. Here at Fark, (a) there are far less threads about homosexual people than about trans people. This is because the former is not as controversial to most nowadays, while transgender issues are still perceived as alien and unrelatable by many more Farkers. (b) there his far more vitriol and misunderstanding demonstrated in the trans threads than in the (less common) gay/lesbian threads.

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

I'm hurt that you called me an idiot. Didn't say it last night.

Anyway good luck with that.

Still have no idea what you meant by that.
 
2012-11-12 07:38:36 AM  

runcible spork: Here at Fark, (a) there are far less threads about homosexual people than about trans people. This is because the former is not as controversial to most nowadays, while transgender issues are still perceived as alien and unrelatable by many more Farkers. (b) there his far more vitriol and misunderstanding demonstrated in the trans threads than in the (less common) gay/lesbian threads..


I don't think you're correct on the amount of threads on said topics (did you miss the whole chick-fil-a thing? Preist and preachers denouncing homosexuality?) but you are correct about there being there more "vitriol and misunderstanding", but separating trans issues from the LGB issues wont change that.

I'm hurt that you called me an idiot. Didn't say it last night.

I apologize I shouldn't have done that, again sorry.

Still have no idea what you meant by that.

I mean good luck with the position that it is better of to make it a separate issue than being included with the LGB, I think it's the wrong position to take.
 
2012-11-12 07:49:15 AM  
ykarie: I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

It wasn't a personal incident (not mine, anyway), it was a news story. Did a quick search just now and was surprised to see that it was from nearly eight years ago (!). "A Quest for a Restroom That's Neither Men's Room Nor Women's Room" (NYTimes, 4 Mar 2005). While I agreed with the overall sentiment of the article and sympathized with most of the people and situations described, it was the one or two declarations of gender fluidity and the sense of "because I feel so right now and so I'm going to just want I want to do no matter how provocative that is" that irked me. Re-reading the article now, I see that at the timeI was oversensitive (and maybe even a bit hallucinatory) in that interpretation, and have maintained that impression over the years.

I agree, ykarie, it's a good thing when "outside" people show solidarity for causes. Practically unequivocally (although sometimes Jon Stewart is spot-on when he intones, "You're not helping..."). But my sense in reading the article was that until such gender-neutral bathrooms were established, people should work within the bounds of society. If you happen to be appearing male and there are only separate men's and women's facilities available, the path of least resistance is to use the men's room. It's a small sacrifice compared to the host of other struggles. I reiterate, this isn't to suggest that people shouldn't take action to inform and educate and work to change society (including creating gender-neutral/unisex restrooms), but that they should pick the wheres and hows of their battles judiciously.

So I'll count it as runcible spork being tired, and let it go. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. And the argument that transgender individuals need to get society to see that gender and sexuality are separate is an issue I think I agree with runcible spork on. I disagree that LGBT needs to be broken into LGB and T someplace else, but turning it from a 1 dimensional Kensey sexuality scale to a 2D grid would be a start.

Thanks for your understanding and tolerance. I'll work on mine too.
 
2012-11-12 07:55:59 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I mean good luck with the position that it is better of to make it a separate issue than being included with the LGB, I think it's the wrong position to take.



Thanks for the reply and apology. We both seem to be intractable on the LGB/T cohesiveness thing, and that's okay. I just think that while the close conflation was useful for quite a while, it's time for the T part to ditch the training wheels, leave the nest, make its own way in the world, et cetera metaphor, et cetera. Not to expose it to attacks or to let it whither and fail, but to let the world see and understand it properly.

And now I really have to get running!
 
2012-11-12 02:24:56 PM  
ciberido: A lot of what makes a male-to-female transsexual look masculine is the skeletal structure. The earlier you start on female hormones, the more your body will look like a "normal" woman's body later in life. Especially if you start before puberty. Later in life, especially after age 30, things like your skeleton and Adam's apple are set and can't be changed. Though there are surgeries to "shave" the Adam's Apple and to make the hips and buttocks look more rounded and feminine, I'm not sure how successful they actually are.

Someone I dated briefly in my early 20s (before she came out as trans) did the M2F thing in her late 20s/early 30s. Having made a ridiculous amount of money as a system administrator during the dot-com boom, she was able to have a LOT of plastic surgery. I'm not even sure of everything she had done, but I didn't even recognize her when I ran into her again. I know she had her chin and adam's apple shaved down, a nose job, some sort of lip-plumping procedure, electrolysis, and breast implants before she went through the final surgery. After the surgery she had her implants redone (not natural enough the first time) and some sort of laryngoplasty to raise her voice because she wasn't satisfied with the results of non-surgical voice therapy.

Anyway, she's farking hot. She could pass for a Swedish model. She's 6'3", mind you, and she's still got unusually broad shoulders and large hands for a woman (though so do I, and I've always been female), but most people don't seem to question her sex, and most men pretty much have their tongues dragging on the ground in her vicinity. Alas for them, she is a lesbian. (In fact, last time I checked she was living with another M2F, which may actually qualify as doublegay.)
 
2012-11-12 05:22:09 PM  

runcible spork: ykarie: I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

It wasn't a personal incident (not mine, anyway), it was a news story. Did a quick search just now and was surprised to see that it was from nearly eight years ago (!). "A Quest for a Restroom That's Neither Men's Room Nor Women's Room" (NYTimes, 4 Mar 2005). While I agreed with the overall sentiment of the article and sympathized with most of the people and situations described, it was the one or two declarations of gender fluidity and the sense of "because I feel so right now and so I'm going to just want I want to do no matter how provocative that is" that irked me. Re-reading the article now, I see that at the timeI was oversensitive (and maybe even a bit hallucinatory) in that interpretation, and have maintained that impression over the years.


It was the lumping of "gender fluid" folks in with "trolls, poseurs and provocateurs" that upset me. Gender fluidity exists; just like bisexuality. Some people don't want to force themselves to pick one or the other forever and ever. Some of them may be just going through a pre-transsexual phase, where they are searching themselves out to see what gender they fit better. Some may choose to stay in that middle ground of "other". A very few may be real life trolls, but I see so few transgender trolls in threads like this and so many anti-trans trolls that I have a hard time believing the real would would be much different.

From the very first time "gender fluid" is brought up in this thread, by you if chrome's find word is right, you paint us as people who are doing this just to piss off society. As I said before, I don't doubt that there are people who do it specifically for those reasons; I've done a presentation on post-gender-feminism wearing chaps and a fake goatee (hey, I got there on a motorcycle, the chaps were justified). I've also done halloween with the thought "hey, guys wear dresses on halloween, I should dress up as a girl dressed as a guy dressed as a girl" which blew a few minds since I had to spend the evening in a college lecture. In my defense, the professor listed the class in the time table as "Trick or Treat" and you can't do that without a costume. But I'm comfortable stepping out of the closet like that; it's not an act put on to shock and stun other people, it's opening a window into who I am. If people choose to see it only as performance art, their loss.
 
2012-11-12 08:15:07 PM  

ciberido: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

So an infertile man isn't a man? And an infertile woman isn't a woman? My mother had a hysterectomy. She's not a woman anymore?


They were born with the necessary parts, but they simply do not work. Also born with the necessary chromosomes. So yeah, they are still a man and a woman. Just born with tough luck.
 
2012-11-12 08:16:33 PM  

Repo Man: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?


She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.
 
2012-11-12 09:07:48 PM  

ykarie:

[ ... ]


Thank you very much for the exegesis. Helps me to understand your situation better, though somewhat ironically it's difficult to wrap my head around the notion. I need to take a cue from my own advice to cisgender people who are trying to understand what it's like to be transgender: just because you can't relate to an experience in a visceral way, it's no reason to dismiss or disparage it. Acceptance and sympathy if not true empathy.


ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.



I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.
 
2012-11-12 10:48:12 PM  

runcible spork: ykarie:

[ ... ]

Thank you very much for the exegesis. Helps me to understand your situation better, though somewhat ironically it's difficult to wrap my head around the notion. I need to take a cue from my own advice to cisgender people who are trying to understand what it's like to be transgender: just because you can't relate to an experience in a visceral way, it's no reason to dismiss or disparage it. Acceptance and sympathy if not true empathy.


ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.


You didn't have a point. Maybe in that feeble mind of yours there were people applauding and cheering you, but you fell quite short. I have no ill will towards transgendered people. Just saying no matter what type of surgery they have they're just cosmetically a different gender. Maybe when there is a way to manipulate chromosomes they can say they're a man or a woman, but until then it is what it is. Even still, it's whatever makes them happy. If they think they're a man or a woman because of some hack 'n slash, testosterone, and estrogen shots then so be it. Whatever makes them happy. For what it's worth I believe them when they say they feel like they're the wrong gender. Isn't like they're making it up. I could totally understand it.
 
2012-11-12 10:58:49 PM  

ParagonComplex: ciberido: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

So an infertile man isn't a man? And an infertile woman isn't a woman? My mother had a hysterectomy. She's not a woman anymore?

They were born with the necessary parts, but they simply do not work. Also born with the necessary chromosomes. So yeah, they are still a man and a woman. Just born with tough luck.


2.bp.blogspot.com

Looks like hard work to me.
 
2012-11-12 11:04:36 PM  
Repo Man: If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.


And a ftm transsexual is a man born with a birth defect (namely, the lack of a penis and the presence of a uterus). Just as a mtg is a woman who was born with a birth defect (namely, the presence of a penis and the lack of a uterus). This is not a difficult concept. You don't reject it because you can't understand it. You reject it because it violates your prejudices.


ParagonComplex: I have no ill will towards transgendered people.


So now we can add "dishonesty" to your list of charms.
 
2012-11-12 11:17:22 PM  

ParagonComplex: runcible spork:

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.

You didn't have a point. Maybe in that feeble mind of yours there were people applauding and cheering you, but you fell quite short. I have no ill will towards transgendered people. Just saying no matter what type of surgery they have they're just cosmetically a different gender. Maybe when there is a way to manipulate chromosomes they can say they're a man or a woman, but until then it is what it is. Even still, it's whatever makes them happy. If they think they're a man or a woman because of some hack 'n slash, testosterone, and estrogen shots then so be it. Whatever makes them happy. For what it's worth I believe them when they say they feel like they're the wrong gender. Isn't like they're making it up. I could totally understand it.



Bzzzt!! Try again. I'll spell it out for you. X-Y.

/ tip: Resorting to petty ad hominem insults such as "that feeble mind of yours" doesn't bolster your argument or make you seem sympathetic. And if you can't discern a difference between how you phrase that and my qualified and measured words (e.g., "I suspect you don't realize [this] makes you sound") you also lack subtlety. Your attitude consistently belies your words and you aren't fooling anyone.
// more: ParagonComplex: Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect. I realize this may be difficult for you, but imagine expanding this notion. For transsexual people, this kind of "birth defect" encompasses the primary and secondary sex characteristics as well. It isn't that much of a stretch.
/// It wasn't my point, originally. More reading comprehension problems on your part.
 
2012-11-13 12:33:31 AM  

DrPainMD: cycle23: DrPainMD: The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?

I think he should marry whomever he wants to marry. It's nobody's business but his own (and the fiances, of course).

Ahem. Thouest can stop writing "whom" now.. it's the 21st century. I noticed you did not put two spaces after your period. Pick a stupid convention and stick with it, smart guy.

Whom isn't Old English, it's proper English. "Who" and "whom" follow the same rules as "he" and "him."


What makes something Old English and proper? You sound like a S.N.O.O.T.
 
2012-11-13 02:39:41 AM  

ciberido: Repo Man: If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

And a ftm transsexual is a man born with a birth defect (namely, the lack of a penis and the presence of a uterus). Just as a mtg is a woman who was born with a birth defect (namely, the presence of a penis and the lack of a uterus). This is not a difficult concept. You don't reject it because you can't understand it. You reject it because it violates your prejudices.


ParagonComplex: I have no ill will towards transgendered people.

So now we can add "dishonesty" to your list of charms.


I don't have any prejudices. They're born feeling the way they do just like homosexuals are born feeling the way they do. I suppose I can see why they could consider being born with a penis instead of a vagina as a birth defect. It doesn't make it true. Theirs is a chemical imbalance and a genetic thing. Just like it doesn't make it true that they're really a man or a woman just because they have mutilated genitalia and get regular testosterone or estrogen shots.
 
2012-11-13 06:00:47 AM  

ParagonComplex: I suppose I can see why they could consider being born with a penis instead of a vagina as a birth defect. It doesn't make it true. Theirs is a chemical imbalance and a genetic thing. Just like it doesn't make it true that they're really a man or a woman just because they have mutilated genitalia and get regular testosterone or estrogen shots.


.05 / 10
 
2012-11-13 11:52:48 AM  

ParagonComplex: I don't have any prejudices.

...

then why does it matter to you so much?
 
2012-11-13 03:32:55 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I think you missed the part about Dr. Money see specifically the part about David Reimer. No one is masculine or feminine at birth except for one thing according to Dr. Money. The hard wiring of the the brain though has already happened and cannot be changed and if taken care of early enough the body can be changed to match the brain but not the other way around.


Hmm. Maybe I was unclear about what I was responding to, but I wasn't talking about how I thought gender identity worked, how transexualism should be handled, or anything to do with Dr. Money's ideas or David Reimer (of whom I am well aware). I was only talking about how I thought the general population would think transsexuals "should" live.

Basically I had imagined that some large proportion of people would just want to avoid being confronted by things that make them uncomfortable. Thus, I figured they'd want someone who was very masculine to just dress like and live as a man instead of trying to pass themselves off as a woman, even if that was their preference. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but that's what I was talking about.
 
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