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(Daily Mail)   Not News: Two cute teens fall in love. Fark: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 400
    More: Sappy, sex-change operations, sex steroid, recitations, Katie Hill  
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32477 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2012 at 2:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-11 03:24:38 PM  

mikewadestr: I had to give my cat species re-alignment surgery because he was a dog. As a cat he kept getting the crap beat out of him for sniffing all the other cats butts. Now as a dog he doesn't sniff cat butts, just dog butts and constantly humps the chair. He looks much happier now.


Derp.
 
2012-11-11 03:29:33 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!


That is exactly the way I describe it. For years as a teen I refused to be around mirrors because the image there wasn't me. It couldn't be; it was wrong. I grew up so backwoods that the words transgender wasn't even in my vocabulary, so I couldn't explain it to anyone why mirrors were lying to me, but I knew they were.

Finally got up the courage to face my family and start talking about it and they took the shortcut by telling me I was intersexed.

But for me, who I was attracted to never entered into the question. I had settled with myself that long before, and my gender didn't even enter the equation. And, as I said, middle of no-where coal mining county, so homophobia was strong there; but I knew I was bi long before I knew my brain's gender didn't match my body's.
 
2012-11-11 03:32:49 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: See this person?

images.art.com

www.erikacoimbra.com.br

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.


Eh, while I understand the point you're making, I'm not sure how relevant it is. I don't think I've ever met anyone who considers chromosomes to be the arbiter of sex. For just about everyone it comes down to the body and junk someone is born with.
 
2012-11-11 03:42:11 PM  

Gawdzila: The Jami Turman Fan Club: See this person?

images.art.com

www.erikacoimbra.com.br

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Eh, while I understand the point you're making, I'm not sure how relevant it is. I don't think I've ever met anyone who considers chromosomes to be the arbiter of sex. For just about everyone it comes down to the body and junk someone is born with.


Then you haven't read many of these threads on Fark. "If you are XX, you're female, XY, you're male" Ok then, here's an XY human with CAIS who looks and feels completely female. "Ok, well if you have a penis, you're male, if you have a vagina, you're female." Well then, here's an intersex individual who has breasts, a vagina, and a penis. "....!"

And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as? If such a person feels either that they are male or female, where does that sense of identity come from? I'm comfortable in thinking that it's hardwired from birth, and that more and more evidence will emerge to support this.
 
2012-11-11 03:42:41 PM  

Myria: queenalice: Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping. I urge you to read and digest the comments of support you have just in this thread alone. There is more support out there. All hope is not lost! Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

I'm alive... I fell asleep with my iPad in my hands since it was like 3 am here (Los Angeles time).

Thank you so much for that month of TotalFark. That was really sweet of you <3


You're very welcome. Your situation is not enviable but it is also not insurmountable. Have you watched Lana Wachowski's Human Rights Campaign speech? Watch it. 

There is a silver lining to your cloud. You can find it. Stretch it so it blankets out the gray.

I don't know what your gifts and passions are, but I know you must have them. Maybe (just a guess) it's writing. If so - write about what you are going through. Day by day.

There will be someone in the future who will read it and will suffer that much less knowing you went through the same thing and came out the other side.

Just one suggestion, maybe a trite one. I don't have all (or maybe any of) the answers -
but I know you are not a waste. You are extraordinary.

And as Pink sings, f*cking perfect.
 
2012-11-11 03:46:22 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Silly Jesus, trolling's for kids!
 
2012-11-11 03:55:58 PM  
It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.
 
2012-11-11 03:58:29 PM  

Gawdzila: ciberido: The problem with your example is that person you're talking about isn't (and wasn't) a guy, normal or otherwise. She was a woman all along.

For certain definitions of the word "woman", anyhow. Transgendered people are not always going to be treated as being exactly the same as anyone else of their new sex in all respects, not even by people who are otherwise tolerant and accepting.


It's an issue in the lbgtq community as well. A number of transwomen (born with male genitalia but identifying as women) have reported that they've been uninvited or made to feel unwelcome at women-only events, even as transmen (born with female genitalia but identifying as men), who themselves say that they are NOT women, are made welcome.  There's a good bit of tension there.

Also, a small nitpick to minimize confusion. I'm talking specifically about transsexual people, not transgender people in general.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transsexualism. Nothing you said was wrong, but not all transgender people identify as being 100% male or 100% female. Almost all transsexuals, however, identify as being whole one of the two "basic" or "normal" genders --- just not the one whose genitals they were born with.
 
2012-11-11 04:01:14 PM  

CrappityCrap: It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.


Liar. You aren't saddened in the slightest. You're positively gleeful at the thought of the "weirdos" suffering for their "perversions."

Don't throw away so easily what shreds of credibility you might have left.
 
2012-11-11 04:08:09 PM  

Myria:

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


As others have said, our life is valuable for itself, because it's yours. As far as the limits of technology in re: your body type, you might be pleasantly surprised. My ex is a trans woman who is extremely large and burly/beefy, but nevertheless since she started hormones the change has been enormous; no surgery, just hormones and lases on the face for hair removal. She reports feeling much better, and to be honest, if I hadn't met her before her transition I wouldn't have known. For that matter, another ex of mine is a cis woman who was so butch that she was routinely mistaken for my boyfriend when we were in public. If advice from a cis man means anything to you, I'd say to start taking those steps. Regardless, know that there are people out there who support you, and your right to be who and what you need to be.


Theaetetus:

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?


For many individuals, yes.
 
2012-11-11 04:21:19 PM  

digitalrain: Please PLEASE know that your life is NOT a waste.


bears repeating .
 
2012-11-11 04:21:30 PM  

PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.

He was trolling.

Duly noted. I was responding more to the people who genuinely believe this.

Who would that be? You are assuming Christians in your post, but most Christians are pretty tolerant. Why not muslims, or Hindus or Zoarastrians?

Well, first, Silly Jesus was using a standard asshole!Christian talking point, not a Hindi\Zoarastrian\Muslim talking point. Second, in reference to your bolded part...no, the statistical majority of Christian Americans are glorified assholes misusing Bible quotes. There are some awesome Christians out there, and there is no religion without a ton of assholes, but in America if you meet a religious nutjob, odds are pretty good it's a Christian who is fairly well accepted in his\her community.


Christians are the large majority in the USA, and statistically its a safe bet to assume. Also, I disagree, the vast majority of Christians in the US are decent, tolerant and forgiving. In any large group of people, there are bound to be a few jerks.

Not trying to pick a fight. I am a little offbeat sometimes. I tend to be critical of people with whom I agree because I want them to be effective and helpful allies. My purpose in starting this thread with you was to gently point out that your post was rather sanctamonious. Tolerance goes both ways.
 
2012-11-11 04:31:37 PM  
everybody deserves a shot a happiness

I can't imagine anyone that has this much turbulence in their young life is totally at peace, geeze I couldn't stand being 16 years old.

My best to them both
 
2012-11-11 04:38:06 PM  

LargeCanine: Christians are the large majority in the USA, and statistically its a safe bet to assume. Also, I disagree, the vast majority of Christians in the US are decent, tolerant and forgiving. In any large group of people, there are bound to be a few jerks.

Not trying to pick a fight. I am a little offbeat sometimes. I tend to be critical of people with whom I agree because I want them to be effective and helpful allies. My purpose in starting this thread with you was to gently point out that your post was rather sanctamonious. Tolerance goes both ways.


I agree, but I also believe that sometimes there's a point where you have to actually say 'no, this group just is being an asshole'. I believe it stems from the fact that Christians are the majority, but most Christians in my experience are very intolerant unless you have the 'Christian straight white' label. They won't go up and spit in your face, but they won't be too subtle about thinking you're a Satanist\spawn of the devil, either.

There are wonderful, amazing Christians, but in my experience, that isn't the statistical majority.

/Not trying to pick a fight either...I just think it's easy to mistake people being tolerant of what they see as 'their own' for real tolerance.
 
2012-11-11 04:44:13 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: "That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?"

For many individuals, yes.


Perhaps, but perhaps not. In the absence of a neutral society, it's pretty much impossible to answer, and mostly irrelevant.
 
2012-11-11 04:45:24 PM  

Repo Man: Then you haven't read many of these threads on Fark. "If you are XX, you're female, XY, you're male"


That's probably true, I'm not a regular participant. Though I'm not sure Fark is a representative sample of the population :p. Besides, I bet (as you noted) that if you confronted them with an XY female they'd fall back on the "well, she was born with a vagina" thing.

Repo Man: And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as?


Most intersex people do not have both external genitalia -- that sort of hermaphrodite is extraordinarily rare. "Intersex" is a very broad term, and actually includes XY females. "Ambiguous genitalia", or cases of having mismatched external and internal genitalia are more common. I suspect that people would say that they "should" live as whatever sex they most resemble while wearing clothes. Personally, I don't care what they do.

Repo Man: If such a person feels either that they are male or female, where does that sense of identity come from? I'm comfortable in thinking that it's hardwired from birth, and that more and more evidence will emerge to support this.


I'd agree with that. It seems to me that even looking at current evidence from genetics, developmental biology, and psychology, it leads towards the conclusion that gender identity is hardwired by the brain and endocrine system sometime before birth in a way that is usually -- but not always -- in accordance with the sex chromosomes.


ciberido: Nothing you said was wrong, but not all transgender people identify as being 100% male or 100% female.


TBH I think that's more reasonable anyhow. It simply isn't possible or even desirable to cram everyone into two genders. Trying to do so would just put everyone, from strict heterosexual men to transwomen, in awkward positions.

ciberido: Almost all transsexuals, however, identify as being whole one of the two "basic" or "normal" genders --- just not the one whose genitals they were born with.


That's pretty much expected, since for most practical purposes we're pretty much geared towards only recognizing two sexes.
 
2012-11-11 04:46:58 PM  

ciberido: Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.

There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.


Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.
 
2012-11-11 04:56:35 PM  

Theaetetus: ciberido: Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.

There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.

Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.




Be careful with that phantom limb / "autogynephilia" / Anne Lawrence information. It's highly suspect.
 
2012-11-11 05:00:48 PM  
I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common for people to get sex changes and regret them later - which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them. At that age they are all confused and farked up even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL those people were 100% positive they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds.
 
2012-11-11 05:11:43 PM  

Gawdzila: Repo Man: And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as?

Most intersex people do not have both external genitalia -- that sort of hermaphrodite is extraordinarily rare. "Intersex" is a very broad term, and actually includes XY females. "Ambiguous genitalia", or cases of having mismatched external and internal genitalia are more common. I suspect that people would say that they "should" live as whatever sex they most resemble while wearing clothes. Personally, I don't care what they do.


Many of those with such conditions would not fit a social-normative appearance without hormones at some point. Put a 3 month old in a dress, they will look like a girl to a modern person, and may look like a boy to someone from the 1800s. Once they hit the age of picking clothing for themselves, that will be somewhat influenced by hormones (if they are taking any) and the gender they are raised (if any) and their own body image trying to make an appearance. Hell, fark is full of "Who is that Beiber chick?" memes, even young teens look agendered til secondary characteristics show up, which won't without hormones or padding.

From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth (damn Money and his ilk); or they should be what ever the doctor's determine their genes to be (and damn religious nutbags too). Growing up around a combination of both of those (might have crossed Money's path, know I met a few of his proteges) these people do exist and up till the last 5 or 10 years took their opinions very, very seriously. And having talked to a few neonatal nurses, at least in this area the predominant view is still assign at birth and never speak of it again.

/trying to change minds one nurse at a time
 
2012-11-11 05:12:33 PM  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wFZre6ebI

THIS
 
2012-11-11 05:12:56 PM  

charmingkiddo: I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common

[Weasel words] for people[Whom?] to get sex changes and regret them later[Citation Needed]- which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them[Editorializing]. At that age they are all confused[Citation Needed] and farked up[Citation Needed] even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age[Citation Needed]. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL[Citation Needed] those people[Weasel words] were 100% positive[Citation Needed] they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds[Citation Needed].
 
2012-11-11 05:15:04 PM  

Theaetetus: charmingkiddo:


...

Thanks for taking the trouble to annotate that properly.
 
2012-11-11 05:15:53 PM  

charmingkiddo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wFZre6ebI


"OMG, some people have more problems than just transsexualism, and therefore transgender people don't exist!"

1/10 since I had to reply to this
 
2012-11-11 05:19:32 PM  

CrappityCrap: It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.


It saddens me to see people trying so hard to rationalize prejudice by clinging to outmoded and scientifically discredited definitions of mental illness. Fun fact, homosexuality was considered a mental illness for most of the 20th century -are you still on that boat? 
Here lemme show you how it's done:

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


twiztedjustin: Well, at least they can't breed

Ya see, as revolting as the opinions of twizted and brobinson may be, they at least aren't pretending that they aren't just straight-up bigot. They've gone full-on hate (brobinson even made a point of saying "no, I'm not even trolling, I'm really just a straight-up bigot" ) , and as ugly as their attitudes are, they don't require them to lie to themselves.

But you, Crappity, you're trying to be something else, and nobody's buyin' it. Eventually, you're going to have to admit that your attitude basically comes from a place of discomfort and intolerance of people who are different. Don't pretend it's anything else.
 
2012-11-11 05:24:50 PM  
Charmingkiddo, Kim Petras laughs at you.
 
2012-11-11 06:21:30 PM  

ykarie: From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth


Huh, that's surprising to me. I'd have imagined that the general population would want whatever option would present them with the least amount of cognitive dissonance with the idea that everyone is either male or female. A very masculine-looking intersexed person trying to pass themselves off as a girl would probably make your average person feel more uncomfortable than if they had just went with the guy look.
 
2012-11-11 06:43:28 PM  

clevernamehere: Shadowtag: It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.

This is officially the greatest image ever. Does it exist somewhere or do I have to make it?


img29.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-11 06:45:38 PM  

runcible spork: Theaetetus: ciberido: There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.

Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.


Be careful with that phantom limb / "autogynephilia" / Anne Lawrence information. It's highly suspect.



It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt. 

Legally in the United States, it matters, because protected class status is easier to get if the basis is something you "cannot help" like national origin or race. On the other hand, religion is a protected class, and that's a matter of choice. So far as I know, you're not born Catholic; you choose to be Catholic, and you could choose to be Hindu or Atheist instead. So I think we'll eventually see federal laws giving all "lbgtq-ness" (or "queerness" if you don't mind that term) protected status even if science does a "U-Turn" and comes out saying "Oh, it's all just in their darling little heads."

But it will be -easier- to advance the "gay agenda" for equal rights if science DOES confirm that we were all born this way. Still, in the long run, we WILL have our civil rights, no matter what the homophobes and transphobes and Religious Right say, and regardless of what new scientific discoveries are made. 

I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.
 
2012-11-11 06:51:50 PM  

Gawdzila: ykarie: From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth

Huh, that's surprising to me. I'd have imagined that the general population would want whatever option would present them with the least amount of cognitive dissonance with the idea that everyone is either male or female. A very masculine-looking intersexed person trying to pass themselves off as a girl would probably make your average person feel more uncomfortable than if they had just went with the guy look.


I think you missed the part about Dr. Money see specifically the part about David Reimer. No one is masculine or feminine at birth except for one thing according to Dr. Money. The hard wiring of the the brain though has already happened and cannot be changed and if taken care of early enough the body can be changed to match the brain but not the other way around.
 
2012-11-11 06:52:58 PM  

queenalice: clevernamehere: Shadowtag: It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.

This is officially the greatest image ever. Does it exist somewhere or do I have to make it?

[img29.imageshack.us image 691x476]


You are now so awesome, LOL : )
 
2012-11-11 06:54:38 PM  

ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...



I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.
 
2012-11-11 06:59:20 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.
 
2012-11-11 07:00:29 PM  

charmingkiddo: I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common for people to get sex changes and regret them later - which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them. At that age they are all confused and farked up even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL those people were 100% positive they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds.



There is the POSSIBILITY that a person could regret a sex-change operation after it happened, yes. However, there are two points which are important to balance against that possibility, which you conveniently ignore:

First, there are already in place numerous safeguards to "catch" and "filter out" anyone who isn't a very good candidate (in the sense that they would regret it later). So the vast majority of people who would regreat a sex change operation are "caught" and discouraged from getting one before they go under the knife, so to speak. In fact, the very case your website trumpets, Ria Cooper, is an example of the system WORKING. That's kind of sad when you trumpet on your home page evidence that DISCREDITS your own argument.

(There was a whole thread about Ria Cooper on Fark a while back, by the way. I don't remember seeing you there. Feel free to check it out, as most of the points we could make to you are already in that thread.)

Second, as I already said earlier in this thread, there are very good reasons why you should start the process AS SOON AS POSSIBLE once you know that you are truly dealing with someone who needs this change. However advisable it might be to delay surgery until age 18, it is extremely INadvisable to force a transsexual to wait to 18 before they can start hormone therapy. Since I already posted about this, I'll just advise you to read the entire thread up to here before responding.  I'd rather not retype or cut-and-paste what I've already written.

Lastly, I have to ask what EVIDENCE you have to back up the claims sexchangeregret.com made. There's no Wikipedia article on that website, nor on Walt Heyer, nor on "Paper Genders." The Amazon.com reviews of his book are scathing. He doesn't seem to be much of an authority on anything. Why should we take this website seriously?
 
2012-11-11 07:01:39 PM  

ciberido: I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.


Same here and love that song : )
 
2012-11-11 07:08:09 PM  

cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.


Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.
 
2012-11-11 07:09:53 PM  

cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.


What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.
 
2012-11-11 07:11:37 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.



That's fine, Maggie, but that's simply overlap.
 
2012-11-11 07:19:06 PM  

ciberido: I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.


I'm rather ashamed to admit, I don't think I remember ever having heard that song not in the context of car commercials. Though, I suppose I do have an excuse, being only 10 when it was released and all.

Back on topic, I agree that it's kind of exciting to be living at this point in time. Sure, there's a long way to go and a lot of work to be done, especially for trans people, but the fact that there's an end point that we can see is huge. People back when I was born who were the age then that I am now certainly wouldn't have been able to say that.
 
2012-11-11 07:27:14 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.

That's fine, Maggie, but that's simply overlap.


Aw, but I only said many overlap not all, yet the issues, can be vary similar, take marriage rights for example say a mtf that was married to their wife for 10 years before transition and the decided to stay together are they still married? Not legally their marriage can be overturned by the state. That's one real life example I know of and then there are so many others I'm sure one more is working to ensure children/adults aren't bullied, harassed, killed because the don't fit a hetero-normative pattern.

/Beter?
 
2012-11-11 07:30:15 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.



First off, I think it makes pretty good sense, honestly, because what all LGBTQ people have (yes, even the Qs) in common is that we face discrimination and ignorance because of sex and gender --- whether it be our OWN sex/gender or the sex/gender of the folks we fall in love with.

Second, I personally would go the opposite route --- I'd like to see CLOSER ties between the LBGTQ community and feminism, precisely because feminism, too, is about fighting discrimination that is based on sex or gender. Indeed, the more I read about misogyny, anti-feminism, homophobia, and transphobia, the more I think that those are essentially facets of the same "gem" (or polyhedron if you're a math geek or "multi-sided die" if you're a gamer geek). And that "gem," I suspect is hegemonic masculinity, the source of all this nonsense humanity has been struggling with for thousands or even millions of years. 

Third, as a bisexual myself, I'm well aware that the same people who want to jettison the T out of LBGTQ would like to get rid of the bisexuals as well, even though we are actually the majority of your group. "First they'll came for the transgender...." might be overstating the case a bit, but we need to hang together or we'll all hang separately after the LBGTQ community becomes a gay boys-only club. And don't think we don't know that that's what some of you boys want.

Fourth, if the problem is that people are confused and misinformed, then EDUCATE them. As has already been pointed out in this thread, there was a time when the homosexual on television was Jodie Dallas (played by Billy Crystal), a gay man who wore a dress. We as a society have learned since then that "man who wears a dress" and "gay man" are not synonyms. We've made progress. We're going to keep making progress. Cutting loose the "deadweight" really isn't going to speed things along. 

And Fifth, of course, it would be a vile and selfish thing to do. But I put this argument last since it seems the one least likely to sway you.
 
2012-11-11 07:33:12 PM  

runcible spork: What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.


It wasn't plainly evident to him or to me. So maybe the problem wasn't on his end. In any case, tone down the defensiveness a bit.
 
2012-11-11 07:37:07 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


Except that a lot of the discrimination that LGB people face is less about orientation than it is about non-normative gender presentation. Or, in other words, women who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "feminine" in their gender presentation or men who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "masculine". The trans issues are part and parcel with the way that society policies gender and tries to quash anyone who is gender non-conforming. Make it better for one group and you make it better for all groups.

Besides, I think it's wrong on a moral standpoint to leave trans people behind as the rest of us get more equality because they've been there fighting for equality alongside LGB people from the beginning. At Stonewall, people talk about how "the drag queens fought back", well, a lot of those people who fought back weren't actually drag queens, they were trans women. LGB people wouldn't be on the verge of full equality without those trans women saying that no, they weren't going to let the police shove them around anymore, and to ignore them now or cut them out of the movement that they've been fighting in for decades is wrong.
 
2012-11-11 07:39:23 PM  

Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.
 
2012-11-11 07:52:15 PM  

runcible spork: cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.

What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.


I just read that one post of yours without context, and yes, after reading some of your other posts, realized that I had miscontrued what you were saying. My apologies.
 
2012-11-11 08:03:29 PM  

aerojockey: Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.


If you have her email, I hope that you send her that. I was going to send some links but no eip, and it would be creepy to ask a fwd from a modmin. I think she could use all the friends in the world right about now- I have been there and in almost the same boat. Im planning on sticking it to the human factory and not going away, even if i am fugly.
 
2012-11-11 08:09:12 PM  

alienated: aerojockey: Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.

If you have her email, I hope that you send her that


By send her that, I mean your post, by the by.
 
2012-11-11 08:22:35 PM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


I know this was posted yesterday, but I think I would hate myself if I didn't respond:

/HUG
 
2012-11-11 08:33:05 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?



Both?
 
2012-11-11 08:37:42 PM  

rynthetyn: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

Except that a lot of the discrimination that LGB people face is less about orientation than it is about non-normative gender presentation. Or, in other words, women who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "feminine" in their gender presentation or men who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "masculine". The trans issues are part and parcel with the way that society policies gender and tries to quash anyone who is gender non-conforming. Make it better for one group and you make it better for all groups.

Besides, I think it's wrong on a moral standpoint to leave trans people behind as the rest of us get more equality because they've been there fighting for equality alongside LGB people from the beginning. At Stonewall, people talk about how "the drag queens fought back", well, a lot of those people who fought back weren't actually drag queens, they were trans women. LGB people wouldn't be on the verge of full equality without those trans women saying that no, they weren't going to let the police shove them around anymore, and to ignore them now or cut them out of the movement that they've been fighting in for decades is wrong.


Very true, I know not all the issues are the same but everybody benefits if people can be who they are without threat of violence or discrimination.
 
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