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(Daily Mail)   Not News: Two cute teens fall in love. Fark: They were both born the opposite sex (w/pics)   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 401
    More: Sappy, sex-change operations, sex steroid, recitations, Katie Hill  
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32477 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2012 at 2:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



401 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-10 08:25:55 PM  
What a really sweet article. Good for them!
 
2012-11-10 08:31:27 PM  
I'm happy for them both...but, I have to admit that Arin looks like Justin Bieber.
 
2012-11-10 08:33:39 PM  
D'awwww.
 
MBK [TotalFark]
2012-11-10 08:43:45 PM  
Clearly, they are both histories greatest monsters.
 
2012-11-10 08:46:23 PM  

coco ebert: D'awwww.


I was going to say this but I couldn't think of the words.
 
2012-11-10 08:49:03 PM  
This is an abomination against God.
 
2012-11-10 08:51:07 PM  
D'awwww ^_^

I'm really happy for them.
 
2012-11-10 08:58:03 PM  
They make a really cute lesbian couple.
 
2012-11-10 09:04:01 PM  
It's very sweet and all. And I fully support them. But he needs to lose the lesbian hair.
 
2012-11-10 09:42:36 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


But it's an adorable one, so fark 'im.
 
2012-11-10 09:43:15 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Just go away. No one likes you and your trolly ways here.

As for the couple, good for them. She looks like Justine Bateman. She's actually really cute and VERY convincing as a woman.
 
2012-11-10 10:44:44 PM  
The two of them are an adorable couple. I hope the best for both!
 
2012-11-10 11:38:49 PM  
They're pretty adorable.
 
2012-11-10 11:45:24 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Well, yeah. That's because that "God" fellow is a real prick.
 
2012-11-10 11:59:59 PM  
Kids that age have no idea what they want.
 
2012-11-11 12:11:19 AM  

NowhereMon: Kids that age have no idea what they want.


Just because you didn't doesn't mean they don't.
 
2012-11-11 12:22:45 AM  

Raharu: NowhereMon: Kids that age have no idea what they want.

Just because you didn't doesn't mean they don't.


Nope, at 25 maybe, too young.
 
2012-11-11 12:25:17 AM  

NowhereMon: Kids that age have no idea what they want.


Remember when you had no idea whether you were a chick or a dude?
 
2012-11-11 12:29:06 AM  
They are totally adorable.
 
2012-11-11 12:38:15 AM  
Did she (now he) get her (now his) dick? Cause THAT would be cool.
 
2012-11-11 12:41:58 AM  

Relatively Obscure: NowhereMon: Kids that age have no idea what they want.

Remember when you had no idea whether you were a chick or a dude?


yeah, but the peyote wore off a couple hours later.
 
2012-11-11 12:43:09 AM  

pissedoffmick: Did she (now he) get her (now his) dick? Cause THAT would be cool.


Well, for varying definitions of "getting it" otherwise:

[morbo.jpg]
 
2012-11-11 12:46:54 AM  
My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.
 
2012-11-11 12:53:10 AM  

PhiloeBedoe: My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.



Ok, that was really, really funny.
 
2012-11-11 01:01:18 AM  
The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.
 
2012-11-11 01:08:43 AM  

runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.


Katie looks like a teenage girl. Arin only looks transgendered because he pulled up lesbianswholooklikejustinbieber.com and thought "fark yeah. THAT'S the look for me"
 
2012-11-11 01:10:19 AM  

BSABSVR: runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.

Katie looks like a teenage girl. Arin only looks transgendered because he pulled up lesbianswholooklikejustinbieber.com and thought "fark yeah. THAT'S the look for me"


To be fair though, who hasn't pulled up lesbianswholooklikejustinbieber.com and thought that?
 
2012-11-11 01:23:28 AM  

BSABSVR: runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.

Katie looks like a teenage girl. Arin only looks transgendered because he pulled up lesbianswholooklikejustinbieber.com and thought "fark yeah. THAT'S the look for me"


Seriously, somebody needs to give that poor kid a makeover.
 
2012-11-11 01:35:03 AM  

PhiloeBedoe: My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.


I see what you did there.
 
2012-11-11 02:31:04 AM  
Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?
 
2012-11-11 02:35:47 AM  
I swear this was on HBO or Showtime 10 years ago.
/But they lived in a trailer home
 
2012-11-11 02:35:51 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?


"Gender identity" and "sexual orientation" are actually separate things. Transgendered people "aren't just gay."
 
2012-11-11 02:37:28 AM  
They're both remarkably good looking in their new genders. And I don't see the Justin Bieber thing others are mentioning. Arin looks slightly androgynous, but already much more handsome than Bieber.
 
2012-11-11 02:38:08 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?


This episode of Our America with Lisa Ling ought to help. (I know it's a Chinese website. YouTube doesn't carry it.)
 
2012-11-11 02:38:18 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?


What sex you are is quite independent from what sex you're attracted to. If one feels they are in the wrong body or identify more with one sex, it's not discovered by how you feel about your desired sexual partner. These things are quite separate.
 
2012-11-11 02:38:24 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?


Gender identity and attraction to others are two completely different things. One relates to self and one to others. Human nature is, by and large, far more subtle and complex than it often appears to be.
 
2012-11-11 02:40:04 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?


I can't tell if you're joking...?
 
2012-11-11 02:42:50 AM  

Khellendros: What sex you are is quite independent from what sex you're attracted to. If one feels they are in the wrong body or identify more with one sex, it's not discovered by how you feel about your desired sexual partner. These things are quite separate.


Yeah. There are actually some people out there who are both gay and transgender at the same time. As in, you were born a man, you feel you're supposed to be a woman, and yet you're still attracted to women.

Needless to say, it's twice as tough for them. You have to deal with the fallout of declaring one, and then you've got the fallout of the other, and there aren't too many families that can handle that kind of a shock to the system.
 
2012-11-11 02:42:54 AM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Nah, they're with the opposite sex. It's all good.
 
2012-11-11 02:45:34 AM  

kxs401: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

I can't tell if you're joking...?


I've known plenty of teens who were both born the opposite sex and fell in love.
 
2012-11-11 02:45:47 AM  
So these two would have the right to marry each other anywhere in the United States, or pretty much anywhere else, wouldn't they?

It seems like a confusing path to find the girl of your dreams, but good for them I guess. The article was kind of long, so I think I missed it: When's the wedding?
 
2012-11-11 02:48:46 AM  

Jz4p: So these two would have the right to marry each other anywhere in the United States, or pretty much anywhere else, wouldn't they?

It seems like a confusing path to find the girl of your dreams, but good for them I guess. The article was kind of long, so I think I missed it: When's the wedding?


wbc would figure out a reason to protest
 
2012-11-11 02:51:15 AM  
Two questions.

1. Is this gay or not?

2. Which one do I fap too?
 
2012-11-11 02:51:26 AM  
Seriously, I don't know what you guys are on. She looks female. He looks male. A pretty boy, sure, but definitely male. If they've got the voices down, I doubt anyone could ever tell.

In fact, she is the first non-Asian MTF that I've seen that is actually hot.
 
2012-11-11 02:51:38 AM  
she's hot!

/you figure out which one i'm talking about.
 
2012-11-11 02:54:36 AM  
Wow, he sure didn't waste any time after breaking up with Selena, did he?
 
2012-11-11 02:55:51 AM  

PhiloeBedoe: My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.


This is a very good Fark posting.
 
2012-11-11 02:56:11 AM  
as long as the farked up people stay to themselves and dont have kids who farking cares
 
2012-11-11 02:57:09 AM  

rockforever: 2. Which one do I fap too?


You're 17. Looking at *linoleum* makes you wanna have sex.
 
2012-11-11 02:57:39 AM  
Of all the unlikely things in this story (boy becomes cute girl as a teenager; girl becomes Bieber-like cute boy as a teenager), they met at a center for trans teens in Oklahoma?

I hope this is true, but not many trans kids have themselves all sorted out by that age, and OK would be the last place where I'd think of it happening.
 
2012-11-11 02:58:28 AM  
I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).
 
2012-11-11 03:01:03 AM  

PhiloeBedoe: My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.


i3.kym-cdn.com
Are you a magi?
 
2012-11-11 03:01:04 AM  

rockforever: Two questions.

1. Is this gay or not?

2. Which one do I fap too?


1. Both.

2. Both.
 
2012-11-11 03:02:51 AM  
i159.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-11 03:03:18 AM  

untaken_name: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Nah, they're with the opposite sex. It's all good.


Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Quit your biatching no matter how you look at it, its opposite gender together it's how your god intended it to be right?
 
2012-11-11 03:03:40 AM  

milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).


Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.
 
2012-11-11 03:03:46 AM  
Thanks for the help, it's just a weird concept that I can't understand. To me, feeling like you're a girl, thinking your a guy- despite having the obvious Equipment seems to be a sign of some sort if denial of reality.

But you know what? As long as they are happy-it's cool! I don't have to understand it!

Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!

I know that hermaphroditism does exist..and that the recommended path is to wait until they are older to let them choose thei sex.
 
2012-11-11 03:04:31 AM  
I don't think I've seen this porn potential before.

I do hope they embrace the 'entertainment' business.
 
2012-11-11 03:05:01 AM  
If claiming to have been born a woman but switched to being a man will increase my chances hooking up with 18 year old hotties I think I just found my new pickup line.
 
2012-11-11 03:06:38 AM  
Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Quit your biatching no matter how you look at it, its opposite gender together it's how your god intended, Right?
 
2012-11-11 03:07:36 AM  

illannoyin: If claiming to have been born a woman but switched to being a man will increase my chances hooking up with 18 year old hotties I think I just found my new pickup line.


Yeah, but only if they are girls who were born as boys.
 
2012-11-11 03:08:02 AM  

milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).


The thread is young. And you discounted Silly Jesus, but to be fair, we all do :)
 
2012-11-11 03:09:20 AM  
Aaaaaargh! I can't take it anymore!
Every time there's a Mail article at least one of the stories linked at the bottom of the page will show up here the next day.
Thing is, I've already read those articles.
This has become a circle-jerk of rotundic proportions.
How low has fark fallen? Used to be, this place was more on the frontline wave of info influx and now we're in more of a tidal pool that gets flushed when the Moon changes phase.

Thing is, if I left fark, where would I go? Outside? Not on your life.
 
2012-11-11 03:09:23 AM  
Yeah, whatever.
Enjoy it while it lasts, kids.
 
2012-11-11 03:09:55 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?


As others have said, those are very different things. I'm gay but I've never wanted to be or felt like I was a woman. I'm a guy who likes guys. Being transgendered is a whole different thing, and can happen to (pre-op) straight people too, so that a man might transition to being a lesbian woman. It's about their self-image rather than their sexual preference.

Also, no, they wouldn't feel that way anyhow because they both would have been gay in their birth genders and wouldn't have been attracted to each other. Arin would have been attracted to women, not a man like Katie, and visa versa.
 
2012-11-11 03:11:12 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Thanks for the help, it's just a weird concept that I can't understand. To me, feeling like you're a girl, thinking your a guy- despite having the obvious Equipment seems to be a sign of some sort if denial of reality.

But you know what? As long as they are happy-it's cool! I don't have to understand it!

Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!

I know that hermaphroditism does exist..and that the recommended path is to wait until they are older to let them choose thei sex.


There's also stuff like androgen insensitivity syndrome. That one's a real mindfark.

The simple fact is that nature is rarely so clean cut as to give you two obvious and never overlapping binary states.
 
2012-11-11 03:12:21 AM  

thecpt: Jz4p: So these two would have the right to marry each other anywhere in the United States, or pretty much anywhere else, wouldn't they?

It seems like a confusing path to find the girl of your dreams, but good for them I guess. The article was kind of long, so I think I missed it: When's the wedding?

wbc would figure out a reason to protest


WBC would protest their mothers so long as they got to keep having sex with cousins and yelling angrily at everyone.

/ I don't think there's anyone outside that small church that they do like.
// also: I would be surprised if they were allowed to travel internationally.
///I would imagine most countries with turn them away at the border
 
2012-11-11 03:12:35 AM  
Meh... Cute couple, but not really a story... Except maybe one about how opposites attract?
 
2012-11-11 03:12:43 AM  
Kate is kinda hot. Reminds me of Justine Bateman.
 
2012-11-11 03:12:52 AM  
That is farkin' awesome. And I'm glad neither one of them looks like Ann Coulter.
 
2012-11-11 03:13:02 AM  
Meh, same old same old.... Awww who am I kidding, I got teary. People just need to leave other people alone with their choices.
 
2012-11-11 03:13:31 AM  
Meanwhile...

i.imgur.com
i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-11 03:13:41 AM  
I'm so confused....
 
2012-11-11 03:14:43 AM  

GungFu: I don't think I've seen this porn potential before.

I do hope they embrace the 'entertainment' business.


upload.wikimedia.orgupload.wikimedia.org

Ask and Ye Shall Receive (totally NSFW)

Buck Angel on the left is the only female-to-male transsexual in the porn business. Allanah Starr on the right is a male-to-female transsexual (shemale, all the lower bits intact).

To clarify... that's the pussy on the left, the cock on the right. If you're still confused, watch it, and be more confused than ever. 

Now try to answer "isn't this totally gay??" Well I'd sooner answer "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" I have no farking idea.
 
2012-11-11 03:17:03 AM  

StopLurkListen: milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).

Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.


That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.
 
2012-11-11 03:18:00 AM  

StopLurkListen: rockforever: 2. Which one do I fap too?

You're 17. Looking at *linoleum* makes you wanna have sex.


17? I wish. I would change some stuff
 
2012-11-11 03:21:16 AM  

milkyshirt: That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.


because in their heads its icky or something. And i have seen some really ' we hate them' in comments on queer sites, like towlerroad, by queer folks . And also mainstream sites like huffpo ...
i just try to skip them, but sometimes its fun to strike back at the trolls.
 
2012-11-11 03:22:04 AM  

Oznog: GungFu: I don't think I've seen this porn potential before.

I do hope they embrace the 'entertainment' business.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330][upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330]

Ask and Ye Shall Receive (totally NSFW)

Buck Angel on the left is the only female-to-male transsexual in the porn business. Allanah Starr on the right is a male-to-female transsexual (shemale, all the lower bits intact).

To clarify... that's the pussy on the left, the cock on the right. If you're still confused, watch it, and be more confused than ever. 

Now try to answer "isn't this totally gay??" Well I'd sooner answer "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" I have no farking idea.


Da F*ck?
 
2012-11-11 03:25:05 AM  

trlkly: Seriously, I don't know what you guys are on. She looks female. He looks male. A pretty boy, sure, but definitely male. If they've got the voices down, I doubt anyone could ever tell.

In fact, she is the first non-Asian MTF that I've seen that is actually hot.


It's because of the age at which they started.

A lot of what makes a male-to-female transsexual look masculine is the skeletal structure. The earlier you start on female hormones, the more your body will look like a "normal" woman's body later in life. Especially if you start before puberty. Later in life, especially after age 30, things like your skeleton and Adam's apple are set and can't be changed. Though there are surgeries to "shave" the Adam's Apple and to make the hips and buttocks look more rounded and feminine, I'm not sure how successful they actually are.

I know that for parents of a transgender child, there's a strong inclination to want to wait in case "she changes her mind later" or "it's just a phase," but this is why it's a very good idea to start the process as soon as possible once you know your "son" is really your daughter. If you force her to wait until she's legally an adult to even begin the process, you're condemning her to a MUCH more difficult life afterwards, assuming she really is transsexual and she really will try to live the rest of her life as a woman.

I would assume that most of this holds true for female-to-male transsexuals as well, but I've read less on how that works, so I don't really know.
 
2012-11-11 03:26:22 AM  
Yeah but it's in the Daily Fail so it obviously is fake unless another source corraborates it AMIRITE???
 
2012-11-11 03:26:44 AM  
I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.
 
2012-11-11 03:29:19 AM  

milkyshirt: StopLurkListen: milkyshirt: I am so proud of you guys for not bringing the transgender derp into this thread (yet).

Voters in four states approved marriage equality propositions this week (and one state rejected a bigoted anti-equality one). I suspect the usual derpers are in the hospital for alcohol poisoning / are lying passed out in a pool of their own vomit on the curb next to their local bar.

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.

That's great and all, really it is, but unfortunately there seems to be plenty of bigotry for trans people from people who are also pro-gay. I haven't figured out why. You would think someone who's capable of letting gay people follow their natural preferences would be able to recognize that trans people are trying to do the same thing.


I've talked about this with transgendered people before. I think the issue is three-fold. The first reason is selfish, but a lot of gay people don't like being lumped in with transgendered people. As supportive as we are of rights for all parts of the LGBT, it can be annoying when cisgendered straights assume we're all the same, that gay people are confused about their gender or like to cross-dress, and so forth. It can sometimes seem like the LG would have an easier time if it weren't for the BT. It's stupid, but that's reason one.

Reason two is that transgenderism (if that's the word, I'm not completely sober) is just not very well understood by most people, including gay people. If you're not transgendered it can be very hard to understand what it feels like, and if you are transgendered I imagine it can be very hard to explain. A lot of gay people just don't "get it," or think it's a cop-out on being gay, etc. It doesn't help that in certain countries (Iran) many gay men get sex-changes because it's legal and/or more acceptable to become a woman and be with a man than to be a man with another man. It's silly, especially for gay people who have dealt with stupid prejudice themselves, to think that someone would put up with the kind of bigotry transgendered people deal with without good reason, but people can be silly.

Lastly, and this isn't really a reason for bigotry but a reason bigotry can be perceived, is that the terminology is hard. I've known several transgendered people and the preferred terms and phrasing have been different with each of them. Some get offended if you say they "used to be" whatever gender, but it's the simplest way to describe the situation sometimes. Most dislike the term tranny, but some are okay with it, some insist on using cis-, some hate the word "normal," etc. Even when trying to be sensitive you can put your foot in your mouth at times.

Don't interpret any of this as excuses for bigotry, I'm just trying to explain the thought process a little.
 
2012-11-11 03:30:43 AM  
Aww they make such a cute couple.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt
 
2012-11-11 03:32:29 AM  

phartman: A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not.


The problem with your example is that person you're talking about isn't (and wasn't) a guy, normal or otherwise. She was a woman all along. If you want to talk about her behaviour from an equality standpoint, you have to compare her to "any normal woman just admiring a female employee's boobs" and see where that gets you.

The fact that you consistently refer to her with masculine pronouns illustrates the problem.
 
2012-11-11 03:35:23 AM  
Their non-conformance to societal norms while looking quite normal CONFUSES AND INFURIATES ME.

Does the gender change cancel their sexuality out, or does it make them double-gay?
 
2012-11-11 03:36:13 AM  
So if the guy (formerly a girl) is attracted to a girl (formerly a guy), does that make them technically straight? Because her/his transgender persona is attracted to the opposite sex, but her/his physical self is also attracted to the opposite sex, albeit dressed and made up like the same sex....
....God, my boner is so confused...
 
2012-11-11 03:37:01 AM  

ladydouji: Aww they make such a cute couple.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt


No, I thought about that too, but then was like, they're not even adults yet, they probably won't last and shouldn't be worrying about kids yet.
 
2012-11-11 03:38:08 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?


Stupid, doesn't think things through or poor reading comprehension? Help me out here.
 
2012-11-11 03:38:29 AM  
Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.
 
2012-11-11 03:39:12 AM  

Tuskan_Roeder: So if the guy (formerly a girl) is attracted to a girl (formerly a guy), does that make them technically straight? Because her/his transgender persona is attracted to the opposite sex, but her/his physical self is also attracted to the opposite sex, albeit dressed and made up like the same sex....
....God, my boner is so confused...


They are straight. The point of transitioning is that their physical and mental selves are in alignment now, so there is no "transgender persona" vs. "physical self."
 
2012-11-11 03:39:39 AM  

Tuskan_Roeder: does that make them technically straight?


Yes.
 
2012-11-11 03:40:23 AM  

weltallica: Meanwhile...

[i.imgur.com image 400x870]
[i.imgur.com image 400x705]


Hahahahaha!
 
2012-11-11 03:42:28 AM  
But won't they feel stupid when they grow up and decide they don't want to be fruit loops anymore?
 
2012-11-11 03:44:02 AM  

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


*psst* This sort of thing is hereditary.
 
2012-11-11 03:47:18 AM  
Opposites attract.
 
2012-11-11 03:49:38 AM  
SVU did it.
 
2012-11-11 03:52:05 AM  

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


If you're so informed as to what genes humanity will or will not need to survive in the future then I advise that you stop posting and run off to inform the scientific community.

Please, don't waste your brilliance on us. Go, now!
 
2012-11-11 03:52:15 AM  

ladydouji: Aww they make such a cute couple.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt


A lot of transsexuals don't have reassignment surgery on their genitals. With female-to-male, it's incredibly complicated, and "results" aren't all that great overall.

With male-to-female, they're damn good at making it LOOK female from the outside. However, the pubic bone is kind of in the wrong place, and the possible depth-of-penetration and keeping it "functional" are sometimes problematic. Sometimes it fails and "closes up" in the long run.... So it may NOT actually "work". It's complicated surgery and has risks. Furthermore, some M-F transgendered aren't bothered by having a penis as long as they've got boobs and a female face consistent with their identity.

So... well I really don't care. Not my business to worry about what genitals they have. I only troubled when I'm trying to be formally polite and am approached by a stranger who I wish to address as "Sir" or "Ma'am" and can't figure it out. I can only hope a mannish lesbian has probably been called "sir" before and doesn't think much of it.
 
2012-11-11 03:52:29 AM  

bugmn99: But won't they feel stupid when they grow up and decide they don't want to be fruit loops anymore?


That's what I keep saying, but despite my persistent belief that eventually people will come around, millions of people are still Republicans.

What gives???
 
2012-11-11 03:54:51 AM  

ElizaDoolittle: Of all the unlikely things in this story (boy becomes cute girl as a teenager; girl becomes Bieber-like cute boy as a teenager), they met at a center for trans teens in Oklahoma?

I hope this is true, but not many trans kids have themselves all sorted out by that age, and OK would be the last place where I'd think of it happening.


The third member of the center went home, alone. Again.
 
2012-11-11 03:59:13 AM  

thisiszombocom: as long as the farked up people stay to themselves and dont have kids who farking cares


Exactly! I couldn't agree more. Wait... you were talking about bigots, right?
 
2012-11-11 04:06:41 AM  
We are becoming a John Varley novel.
 
2012-11-11 04:08:43 AM  
I'm amazed at the people in here saying they hope these kids don't procreate. Can't have the freaks and weirdos spreading their genes, right?

I've got some bad news for you. You are descended from a very long line of freaks and weirdos. It's called mutation. You owe everything to it, and sometimes it produces surprising results from unlikely sources. You don't have the omniscience to see all ends. You have no idea how helpful or hurtful their genes could be. Your arrogance on the other hand is extremely harmful.
 
2012-11-11 04:09:33 AM  

phartman: I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.


Nope not ok. If a woman or man crosses the acceptable comfort line it is harassment from a legal standpoint. Mind you I'm Canadian and there is presidence. Also I am a lesbian magnet.
 
2012-11-11 04:12:57 AM  

NobleHam: I've talked about this with transgendered people before. I think the issue is three-fold. The first reason is selfish, but a lot of gay people don't like being lumped in with transgendered people. As supportive as we are of rights for all parts of the LGBT, it can be annoying when cisgendered straights assume we're all the same, that gay people are confused about their gender or like to cross-dress, and so forth. It can sometimes seem like the LG would have an easier time if it weren't for the BT. It's stupid, but that's reason one.

Reason two is that transgenderism (if that's the word, I'm not completely sober) is just not very well understood by most people, including gay people. If you're not transgendered it can be very hard to understand what it feels like, and if you are transgendered I imagine it can be very hard to explain. A lot of gay people just don't "get it," or think it's a cop-out on being gay, etc.


I see it mostly as a lack of empathy. I'm not trans, so I'm not going to say I know what it's like, but it's not hard for me to recognize that it has to really suck to not identify with your own body, especially living in a family/culture that is not accepting.

And while anyone who's not an idiot should be able to distinguish between gender identity and sexual preference, I think LGBT are lumped together because, from the outside, the struggle for acceptance and the bullying and hatred from others appear very similar, if not identical.
 
2012-11-11 04:15:31 AM  

Coelacanth: We are becoming a John Varley novel.


I've never met a man who so hated his own penis like that guy.
 
2012-11-11 04:34:12 AM  
College will ruin this story
 
2012-11-11 04:55:23 AM  

Gosling: Yeah. There are actually some people out there who are both gay and transgender at the same time. As in, you were born a man, you feel you're supposed to be a woman, and yet you're still attracted to women.


If I remember from my late night Loveline listening a few years back Dr. Drew often said that people who undergo sex change operations do so to pursue relationships with the same sex they changed to more than the opposite. Or gender. I forget which one I'm supposed to say in which case.
 
2012-11-11 05:06:25 AM  

PhiloeBedoe: My wedding gifts to them will be a platinum watch fob and some really nice combs.


------

O, those would be magical gifts
 
2012-11-11 05:12:08 AM  
person loves person who loves them back.

it will be nice when this isn't "weird" news.
 
2012-11-11 05:24:23 AM  

GhostFish: I'm amazed at the people in here saying they hope these kids don't procreate. Can't have the freaks and weirdos spreading their genes, right?

I've got some bad news for you. You are descended from a very long line of freaks and weirdos. It's called mutation. You owe everything to it, and sometimes it produces surprising results from unlikely sources. You don't have the omniscience to see all ends. You have no idea how helpful or hurtful their genes could be. Your arrogance on the other hand is extremely harmful.


So let me get this straight...They are mutants? I have to live out my life as a simple male hetero and they get to be X-men.

Seems unfair.
 
2012-11-11 05:30:53 AM  

DerekSD: she's hot!

/you figure out which one i'm talking about.


da fuq is this i don't even....

/seriously though good for them
 
2012-11-11 05:35:13 AM  
Which one has the vajaja? Can they reproduce? Well they've at least doubled their wardrobe!
 
2012-11-11 05:37:30 AM  
Link

Gosling:

Yeah. There are actually some people out there who are both gay and transgender at the same time. As in, you were born a man, you feel you're supposed to be a woman, and yet you're still attracted to women.


img854.imageshack.us

/agrees 
//not hot
///linked, that is
 
2012-11-11 05:39:43 AM  
Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.
 
2012-11-11 05:45:38 AM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


:(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?
 
2012-11-11 05:53:45 AM  

queenalice: :(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?


No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.
 
2012-11-11 05:58:15 AM  
None of my business, or anybody else's.
Glad they're happy, may they live happily ever after.
 
2012-11-11 06:01:16 AM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


I have a close family member that is now post-op like 20 years and even before she transitioned she was relatively well adjusted and happy, albiet it involved alot of therapy and acceptance by some close friends and family.

The frequency and severity of the feelings you are experiencing makes me wonder if you may have an underlying condition, such as chronic depression. If you haven't sought therapy, then you should do so. If you are currently seeing a therapist, then you should definately explore this with them.
 
2012-11-11 06:06:06 AM  

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

img255.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-11 06:08:25 AM  
 
2012-11-11 06:10:56 AM  

Myria: queenalice: :(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


However it is that you want to be, and whoever it is that you are attracted to - it is out there. Don't stop looking. There are more things in heaven and earth, Myria, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
 
2012-11-11 06:16:28 AM  
As cute and sappy as this is, the following line at the bottom of the article somewhat spoils it:


Sorry we are unable to accept comments for legal reasons.


Nice to know that the Daily Mail has such faith in its own readership that the comments were switched off to prevent hate speech aimed at a 16 and 18 year old in love with each other.
 
2012-11-11 06:22:21 AM  
Wow. This thread reaffirms my belief that there are terrible human beings that frequent this site.

Thanks Fark!
 
2012-11-11 06:36:00 AM  
Dear Religious Wimps,

Baby Jesus is crying because this shiat is freaking adorable. It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.

Adult Jesus is weeping because 2000 years later you judgmental motherfarkers are still quicker to violence than peace, so his whole 33 year vacation from running the universe was an utter waste of time.
 
2012-11-11 06:36:12 AM  

Myria: queenalice: :(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


Consistent use of estrogen can make big changes. I won't pretend I know exactly what you're dealing with, but transitioning m/f people have all been down that road. You'd have a lot of medical and trans community social support.
 
2012-11-11 06:40:33 AM  

BronyMedic: Wow. This thread reaffirms my belief that there are terrible human beings that frequent this site.

Thanks Fark!

 
2012-11-11 06:43:27 AM  
The real question here that no one is asking, how come they look like siblings?
 
2012-11-11 07:13:25 AM  

Myria: queenalice: :(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


You're unhappy with the way you look and are having suicidal thoughts. For the time being, instead of thinking about a sex change, maybe you should get therapy to help yourself come to terms with your body and appearance as it is now. You shouldnt be having suicidal thoughts and you should be able. to function. After all, many people have disabilities that affect their appearance or gender identity but are able to function.
 
2012-11-11 07:34:47 AM  
So, in other words, they wasted alot of money on surgery.

/I may be a lesbian trapped in a mans body, but I ain't cutting nothing off.
 
2012-11-11 07:47:28 AM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Then God needs to revamp His definition of 'abomination'.

/ says the conflicted, bisexual practicing Catholic
 
2012-11-11 07:54:55 AM  

StopLurkListen: rockforever: 2. Which one do I fap too?

You're 17. Looking at *linoleum* makes you wanna have sex.


OK who let Xander in here?
 
2012-11-11 07:55:27 AM  
How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.
 
2012-11-11 08:03:18 AM  
Arin, the youger of the two, is still biologically female.
 
2012-11-11 08:14:03 AM  
Yes, because every decision I made at 18 was a wise one.
 
2012-11-11 08:14:31 AM  

BronyMedic: Wow. This thread reaffirms my belief that there are terrible human beings that frequent this site.

Thanks Fark!


And there are a lot of very good people who post here. Don't forget about them.
 
2012-11-11 08:15:40 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.


Wow, pretty much every ignorant anti-LGBT misconception all in one post. You're very efficient, I'll give you that much.
 
2012-11-11 08:17:40 AM  
Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Then why did God make them like this?
 
2012-11-11 08:19:24 AM  

halloran: You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far.


Troll or mind-numbingly stupid? It's so damned hard to tell these days.
 
2012-11-11 08:19:39 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.


Ah, you're so provincial it's almost cute.
 
2012-11-11 08:19:46 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.


8/10 - you could have fit something else in there, not sure what but I don't think you pissed off everyone yet.
 
2012-11-11 08:21:27 AM  

rockforever: Two questions.

1. Is this gay or not?

2. Which one do I fap too?


1. Depends on where they are in the trans.

2. 1 is 16 1 is 18. Do the math.
 
2012-11-11 08:30:53 AM  

phartman: I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.


she could have found other people to ask besides coworkers. i mean, she could have easily found a good support group elsewhere, thanks to the intarwebs.

using the women's bathroom though? shouldn't be a problem for anybody.
 
2012-11-11 08:32:14 AM  

Myria: queenalice: :(

I don't have gender i.d. issues but I know what you're talking about with the whole sleeping is better than being awake.

Obvious follow-up question is, what are you going to do about it? Is it an issue with having the funds to have the necessary procedures to get you in your right skin?

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


Myria, see if you can contact Joelle Ruby Ryan (PhD). We were in grad school together. She's scarred, but so strong. Google around -- last I heard she was teaching at U of NH.
 
2012-11-11 08:35:01 AM  
How nice for them!
 
2012-11-11 08:38:53 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.

 

4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-11 08:40:09 AM  
Good for them. They look very very happy in those pics. I hope it works out for them.

/hard enough to find someone..why biatch about 2 in love?
 
2012-11-11 08:57:48 AM  
Honest question:

Is the dude's new "equipment" operational? Do they install one of those Reebok Pump kind of things? Where do they get the new appendage from?

The mechanics behind the new equipment on both sides is intriguing in a medical science kind of way.

/ DRTFA
 
2012-11-11 08:57:58 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?


It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."
 
2012-11-11 09:01:07 AM  
Well, at least they can't breed
 
2012-11-11 09:04:21 AM  
beancounters.blogs.com
 
2012-11-11 09:10:06 AM  
So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?
 
2012-11-11 09:14:56 AM  
Probably the only couple in the world who understands each other.
 
2012-11-11 09:15:28 AM  

Ed Grubermann: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

Stupid, doesn't think things through or poor reading comprehension? Help me out here.


Ignorant. You know how you can tell? Because other people answered his question and he thanked them.

Not understanding transgender folks doesn't make someone stupid or mean. Many of us have not (to our knowledge) met someone who is, much less discussed their deepest feelings. That doesn't mean we don't like them or are going to do the whole "this is an abomination" thing - it simply means that we don't understand. So please don't insult someone who asks a question to learn more about the people they share the world with.
 
2012-11-11 09:20:27 AM  
I guess this means that they aren't gay?
 
2012-11-11 09:35:02 AM  

runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.


1. That would require a level of cleverness the Daily Fail has never, ever achieved.
2. That would also be called "going full Matthew McConnaghey" and you should never go "full Matthew McConnaghey."

In other news:
i.dailymail.co.uk
If we really were British, would we be gobsmacked or snackered?
 
2012-11-11 09:37:00 AM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


God created them that way and knew it would turn out like this.

And he loves them.

So... Deal with that.
 
2012-11-11 09:39:59 AM  
This thread has done went full retard.
 
2012-11-11 09:45:24 AM  

Shadowtag: It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.


This is officially the greatest image ever. Does it exist somewhere or do I have to make it?
 
2012-11-11 09:47:55 AM  

dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?


No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.
 
2012-11-11 09:51:46 AM  
As fark won't let me respond to anything halloran said now that i've plonked it....

Kerplonk!
 
2012-11-11 09:56:54 AM  
They are adorable
 
2012-11-11 10:02:05 AM  
images.guitarcenter.com

Male / Female.


Simple enough for power cords.

A bit more complicated with humans.
 
2012-11-11 10:20:22 AM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Now here's a conundrum: If one of them never had a sex change (thus making them a gay couple), would it be less of an abomination?
 
2012-11-11 10:28:39 AM  

8InchFloppy: GhostFish: I'm amazed at the people in here saying they hope these kids don't procreate. Can't have the freaks and weirdos spreading their genes, right?

I've got some bad news for you. You are descended from a very long line of freaks and weirdos. It's called mutation. You owe everything to it, and sometimes it produces surprising results from unlikely sources. You don't have the omniscience to see all ends. You have no idea how helpful or hurtful their genes could be. Your arrogance on the other hand is extremely harmful.

So let me get this straight...They are mutants? I have to live out my life as a simple male hetero and they get to be X-men.

Seems unfair.


To be fair only one of them is an ex-man.

/still not our business
 
2012-11-11 10:31:01 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.


One of these things is not like the others, one of these things just doesn't belong...
 
2012-11-11 10:34:19 AM  
Hey, you know what my opinion is about this? Doesn't matter! It affects me not at all.

Actually, I'm very happy for them. If this is an abomination, well, that's god's problem. Whichever god it is who feels abominated against, that is.
 
2012-11-11 10:40:04 AM  
It must be topsy turvy day! And didn't that "guy" change his name to "Beiber"?

Seriously though. Love is difficult enough to find in this world. So grab it with both hands when you find it.
 
2012-11-11 10:43:42 AM  
They ARE a cute couple, surprisingly so, I was half expecting this to be about sex changed naked mole-rats or some such, with the way Fark links are when it comes to Cute, Hottie, etc. Yet I still clicked it anyway... :P

Coelacanth: We are becoming a John Varley novel.


I am ok with this, as long as it is without the aliens that do the whole attempted extermination of humanity thing.
 
2012-11-11 10:47:47 AM  
I had a massive d'awwww for the article, they look like two happy kids who enjoy being around each other. And that's all that really matters, isn't it?

So of course I came here knowing full well it'd be full of derp and haters. It hasn't been quite the trainwreck I was expecting, but then it helps when you put certain threadshiatters on ignore.
 
2012-11-11 10:50:07 AM  

DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.


See this person?

images.art.com

www.erikacoimbra.com.br

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?
 
2012-11-11 10:53:12 AM  
daaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
 
2012-11-11 10:55:31 AM  

someguy945: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Now here's a conundrum: If one of them never had a sex change (thus making them a gay couple), would it be less of an abomination?


chan.catiewayne.com
 
2012-11-11 11:13:27 AM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Sweet! good for them. God is a dick.
 
2012-11-11 11:14:31 AM  

NowhereMon: Kids that age have no idea what they want.


But yet every single kid makes decisions before they reach adulthood (age=35) that they live with for their entire lives, and most of them don't look as happy as these two.
 
2012-11-11 11:15:56 AM  

Amos Quito: someguy945: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Now here's a conundrum: If one of them never had a sex change (thus making them a gay couple), would it be less of an abomination?

[chan.catiewayne.com image 262x313]


I am (and was) well aware he was joking around. I'm joking around with him. I don't even consider it a troll attempt.
 
2012-11-11 11:17:35 AM  

BronyMedic: Wow. This thread reaffirms my belief that there are terrible human beings that frequent this site.

Thanks Fark!


Really? I was pleasantly surprised at how few bigots commented on this. Maybe it's just my faulty memory, but I recall previous trans threads being much much worse than this.
 
2012-11-11 11:17:55 AM  

thisiszombocom: as long as the farked up people stay to themselves and dont have kids who farking cares


We are all just hoping you don't reproduce. Just stand a little closer as you microwave your tub o'butter and biscuits.
 
2012-11-11 11:18:11 AM  

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


My Father's transgendered, I guess I should just head off to your death camp right?
 
2012-11-11 11:19:34 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?


I think he should marry whomever he wants to marry. It's nobody's business but his own (and the fiances, of course).
 
2012-11-11 11:19:55 AM  
One side of my brain thinks this is spiffy, good for them. The other side thinks it's just damn inefficient.
 
2012-11-11 11:23:38 AM  

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


Hahah. Oh man. So, can you explain Honey Boo Boo and how shiat like her existance isn't the weakening to which you refer? Also.. do you wear a robe and pointy hat only on the weekends or every day?
 
2012-11-11 11:25:04 AM  

Oznog: ladydouji: Aww they make such a cute couple.

Am I weird for hoping they also made plans in case they ever want to have biological children(harvesting and storing some of her sperm and his eggs before they get too far in the re-assignment therapy and surgery) They would still need to use a surrogate though. Or they could forget the biological route and adopt

A lot of transsexuals don't have reassignment surgery on their genitals. With female-to-male, it's incredibly complicated, and "results" aren't all that great overall.

With male-to-female, they're damn good at making it LOOK female from the outside. However, the pubic bone is kind of in the wrong place, and the possible depth-of-penetration and keeping it "functional" are sometimes problematic. Sometimes it fails and "closes up" in the long run.... So it may NOT actually "work". It's complicated surgery and has risks. Furthermore, some M-F transgendered aren't bothered by having a penis as long as they've got boobs and a female face consistent with their identity.

So... well I really don't care. Not my business to worry about what genitals they have. I only troubled when I'm trying to be formally polite and am approached by a stranger who I wish to address as "Sir" or "Ma'am" and can't figure it out. I can only hope a mannish lesbian has probably been called "sir" before and doesn't think much of it.


How about stop pretending it is 1885 and just call them "You"?
 
2012-11-11 11:26:52 AM  
At their wedding the champagne will taste just like Coca~Cola
 
2012-11-11 11:27:24 AM  

sleeps in trees: phartman: I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.

Nope not ok. If a woman or man crosses the acceptable comfort line it is harassment from a legal standpoint. Mind you I'm Canadian and there is presidence. Also I am a lesbian magnet.


Since you misspelled precedence I'm gonna go ahead and assume you also misspelled midget.
 
2012-11-11 11:28:41 AM  
At least it is still marriage between one man and one woman, amirite?
 
2012-11-11 11:32:49 AM  

halloran: How is this cute and adorable? These poor kids underwent surgery to 'become' something they are not. They were bullied and felt out of place and felt the only way out was to change there gender. It's such a weird thing to do. They may even have problems later in life .... so many risks involved all because of sex. Sex is not for fun. It is to make more human babies. Be happy with who you are. These urges are nothing more than animal instincts. If you can't control your animal instincts you are not very evolved. You need to recognise the fact that being gay is abnormal and if it was normal then everyone would be gay and no humans would have made it this far. We would never have stepped foot on the moon because humans would be extinct.


If we would have stuck to your idiotic philosophy we never would have stepped foot on the moon because the Earth would still be flat and the center of the universe.

Males dogs put it in the butt of other male dogs, but there are plenty of biatches running around. 'Splain that?
 
2012-11-11 11:35:33 AM  

DrPainMD: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."


Since it is supported by "the medical community", perhaps your definintion of the word "delusional" is not the medical definition.
 
2012-11-11 11:40:09 AM  

DrPainMD: The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?

I think he should marry whomever he wants to marry. It's nobody's business but his own (and the fiances, of course).


Ahem. Thouest can stop writing "whom" now.. it's the 21st century. I noticed you did not put two spaces after your period. Pick a stupid convention and stick with it, smart guy.
 
2012-11-11 11:40:41 AM  
I do wonder, how much of gender identity disorder is due to discomfort with one's physical body, as opposed to how much is due to discomfort with stereotypical gender roles correlated with one's sex. For example, if our society never pressured anyone into certain roles and was completely accepting of people, would they go through with the surgery?

From the article:
"'Girly things didn't interest me, but I was worried what people would think if I said I wanted to be a boy, so I kept it secret.'
Arin's mother Denise, 41, encouraged him to compete in local pageant contests and he became an accomplished female ballet and clogging dancer. But Arin's secret love was riding motocross bikes with his father Mitch, 42, and doing triathlons and rock-climbing."

and from another article about Katie Hill:
In a house teeming with testosterone, Luke never wanted to do typical boy stuff.
His dad, Randy Hill, served as a lieutenant colonel in the Marines and leads the ROTC program at Bixby High School.
"We need to prepare for the fact that our child will probably be gay," Jazzlyn would tell Randy, hoping she could help him adjust to the idea. Randy was a jock, athletic, and wanted a son to play football and catch with.
Luke would never be that boy. He would sit quietly with Crayolas and color.


So, if Arin was encouraged as a girl - and not just by tolerant parents in spite of society, but by society - to do anything she wanted, including rock-climbing and motorcross, and if Luke was encouraged as a boy to do anything he wanted, including coloring and playing with dolls, would they later have wanted surgery?
Any TG farkers with some insight?
 
2012-11-11 11:40:57 AM  

cycle23: sleeps in trees: phartman: I have transgender on my team working as a data analyst. A few months before he became she, he was constantly asking the women about their breasts and in general, being really really weird. The HR people got involved and he was three seconds from being fired for sexual harassment, until he blurted out that he was considering a sex change and 'just wanted advice', and his wife wouldn't give it. Suddenly all was forgiven and he was allowed to continue what every else found rather creepy. This is just wrong and not from a 'God will punish' standpoint but from an equality standpoint. Any normal guy just admiring a female employee's boobs would be vilified, but this guy was not. He later became she and insisted on using the lady's room, which further weirded everyone out. I guess my point is that tolerance can some times be a bit one-sided. If I were in his high-heels, I think I would have quit my job and simply started again elsewhere instead of putting fellow employees under pressure. FWIW.

Nope not ok. If a woman or man crosses the acceptable comfort line it is harassment from a legal standpoint. Mind you I'm Canadian and there is presidence. Also I am a lesbian magnet.

Since you misspelled precedence I'm gonna go ahead and assume you also misspelled midget.


Bravo! Favorited.
img221.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-11 11:42:59 AM  
This far and no Garp references?

sgrumbleoutloud.files.wordpress.com

Come on, give Lithgow some love, folks.
 
2012-11-11 11:45:13 AM  

Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


Consider that you might be happier living as female, even if people "read" you everywhere you went. There are transsexuals who are happier even when they don't "pass." I think for many people, and perhaps for you especially, "Will I be able to pass?" shouldn't be your biggest concern.
 
2012-11-11 11:49:55 AM  

ciberido: Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.

Consider that you might be happier living as female, even if people "read" you everywhere you went. There are transsexuals who are happier even when they don't "pass." I think for many people, and perhaps for you especially, "Will I be able to pass?" shouldn't be your biggest concern.


Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping. I urge you to read and digest the comments of support you have just in this thread alone. There is more support out there. All hope is not lost! Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.
 
2012-11-11 11:50:10 AM  

DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.


It's interesting how much this bothers you. You really, really seem intimidated by transsexuals.
 
2012-11-11 11:56:21 AM  
As you like it.
 
2012-11-11 12:01:59 PM  

BronyMedic: Wow. This thread reaffirms my belief that there are terrible human beings that frequent this site.

Thanks Fark!


You needed some kind of reminder? I just guess that about every site I visit ever for all time eternally.
 
2012-11-11 12:02:50 PM  
First, I know a married transgender couple so this doesn't look like news to me.

Second, if the Farker's name is "SillyJesus", don't take his "Abomination" comment seriously; he was probably giggling when he posted it.

As for the couple in the article, these people seem to have known at a really young age that they wanted to be the gender opposite the one they were born as.
Without being in their place, we have know way to evaluate that decision except that what they have done doesn't change our ability to live our own lives; reading about it may have opened our minds a little. The fact that they are happy as they are (now) is pretty cool.
 
2012-11-11 12:04:32 PM  

Prey4reign: runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.

1. That would require a level of cleverness the Daily Fail has never, ever achieved.
2. That would also be called "going full Matthew McConnaghey" and you should never go "full Matthew McConnaghey."

In other news:
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x511]
If we really were British, would we be gobsmacked or snackered?


I can dream, dammit. It's not exactly high-level journalism to not tell the reader something that colors their perception of the entire article.
 
2012-11-11 12:07:15 PM  
So who farks who?
 
2012-11-11 12:07:32 PM  

cycle23: DrPainMD: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."

Since it is supported by "the medical community", perhaps your definintion of the word "delusional" is not the medical definition.


There's no question that it's a delusion. You don't need to be a shrink to figure that out.
 
2012-11-11 12:08:24 PM  

ciberido: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

It's interesting how much this bothers you. You really, really seem intimidated by transsexuals.


What makes you think that it bothers me at all. For the record: it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
 
2012-11-11 12:09:36 PM  
Fark just keeps giving and giving to me this week. My current employer is very...shall we say, interesting and socially very liberal - if any Farkers are on here that recall my "peanut lady" posting on Friday, will in fact probably get this. Had a coworker who was born a guy, changed to the correct sex earlier this year. I was on my way to a meeting which included him and came around the corner on a Monday morning and saw a very pretty young woman in his place. I said without fully thinking, "good morning, Bob." and was promptly and politely introduced to Sally. Love Sally to death, great gal,and fabulous taste in shoes and perfume. But quite a shock on a Monday morning when I hadn't had my coffee just yet. Good on 'em, this young couple certainly looks good together in photos and they appear to love each other, I wish them all the best blessings the universe has to offer and may their union be peaceful and wonderful.
 
2012-11-11 12:11:24 PM  

cycle23: DrPainMD: The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?

I think he should marry whomever he wants to marry. It's nobody's business but his own (and the fiances, of course).

Ahem. Thouest can stop writing "whom" now.. it's the 21st century. I noticed you did not put two spaces after your period. Pick a stupid convention and stick with it, smart guy.


Whom isn't Old English, it's proper English. "Who" and "whom" follow the same rules as "he" and "him."
 
2012-11-11 12:13:20 PM  

ElizaDoolittle: Of all the unlikely things in this story (boy becomes cute girl as a teenager; girl becomes Bieber-like cute boy as a teenager), they met at a center for trans teens in Oklahoma?

I hope this is true, but not many trans kids have themselves all sorted out by that age, and OK would be the last place where I'd think of it happening.


Definitely Tulsa, Ok. The video at the end of the article was shot at Woodward Park.
 
2012-11-11 12:15:10 PM  

Devil's Advocaat: As cute and sappy as this is, the following line at the bottom of the article somewhat spoils it:

Sorry we are unable to accept comments for legal reasons.

Nice to know that the Daily Mail has such faith in its own readership that the comments were switched off to prevent hate speech aimed at a 16 and 18 year old in love with each other.


Yes, unfortunate, but it's completely reasonable, and the responsible thing to do.
In other news, I am also somewhat relieved at the relative lack of hate and derp in this thread. ...relative, that is, by Fark standards -but still, I guess that's progress.

And seriously, I think this is beautiful. They're two cute kids in love, and they understand each other better than others possibly could. If you don't get the whole transgendered thing, that's cool. But they get it. They get each other, and they're happy. Be happy for them.
 
2012-11-11 12:20:03 PM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?
 
2012-11-11 12:22:05 PM  
That's ookie.
 
2012-11-11 12:22:16 PM  

Theaetetus: I do wonder, how much of gender identity disorder is due to discomfort with one's physical body, as opposed to how much is due to discomfort with stereotypical gender roles correlated with one's sex. For example, if our society never pressured anyone into certain roles and was completely accepting of people, would they go through with the surgery?

From the article:
"'Girly things didn't interest me, but I was worried what people would think if I said I wanted to be a boy, so I kept it secret.'
Arin's mother Denise, 41, encouraged him to compete in local pageant contests and he became an accomplished female ballet and clogging dancer. But Arin's secret love was riding motocross bikes with his father Mitch, 42, and doing triathlons and rock-climbing."
and from another article about Katie Hill:
In a house teeming with testosterone, Luke never wanted to do typical boy stuff.
His dad, Randy Hill, served as a lieutenant colonel in the Marines and leads the ROTC program at Bixby High School.
"We need to prepare for the fact that our child will probably be gay," Jazzlyn would tell Randy, hoping she could help him adjust to the idea. Randy was a jock, athletic, and wanted a son to play football and catch with.
Luke would never be that boy. He would sit quietly with Crayolas and color.

So, if Arin was encouraged as a girl - and not just by tolerant parents in spite of society, but by society - to do anything she wanted, including rock-climbing and motorcross, and if Luke was encouraged as a boy to do anything he wanted, including coloring and playing with dolls, would they later have wanted surgery?
Any TG farkers with some insight?



Difficult to say from just those quotes. The picture for them is no doubt bigger than that and the article's encapsulation; the WPATH standards of care necessary to have surgery should eliminate the chances that it's simply societal role-related. When an individual is transsexual, the desire to correct one's body is complete and is independent of society. To illustrate, if such a person were stranded on a desert island, alone, he or she would still be possessed of a tremendous, inescapable need to have a "different" body.

There are some societies where a "third sex" is recognized and the associated pressures may be muted, but transsexualism probably exists there as well.
 
2012-11-11 12:22:59 PM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


Myria,

NO ONE's life is a waste.

You've had lots of folks post to this thread with suggestions on how and where to get help. All I can do is lend my voice to those who are encouraging you to get that help, and who are telling you that it can and does get better. It might not seem like it right now, but there is hope out there. Please be well and take care of yourself.
 
2012-11-11 12:26:30 PM  

DrPainMD: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."


You do realize that gender identity and biological sex are two completely different things, right? Nobody actually "thinks they're the opposite sex". 

I mean, if you want to completely reject scientific consensus on a topic, that's one thing, but you should at least make some pretense of understanding what it is you're rejecting if you don't want to look like a moron (well, not as big of a moron anyway).
 
2012-11-11 12:31:42 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


I can't believe how many people you have hooked with this line. I thought, "Obvious troll" given how Fark rolls. But I guess I was wrong.

Kudos.
 
2012-11-11 12:48:41 PM  

runcible spork: Difficult to say from just those quotes. The picture for them is no doubt bigger than that and the article's encapsulation; the WPATH standards of care necessary to have surgery should eliminate the chances that it's simply societal role-related. When an individual is transsexual, the desire to correct one's body is complete and is independent of society. To illustrate, if such a person were stranded on a desert island, alone, he or she would still be possessed of a tremendous, inescapable need to have a "different" body.


Theoretically, yes, but there's no way to eliminate that societal effect. And the WPATH standards don't seem to attempt to do so. Instead, they focus on the pragmatic effect of societal pressure on the patient, as they should: it's far easier to change a single person than to change society.

There are some societies where a "third sex" is recognized and the associated pressures may be muted, but transsexualism probably exists there as well.

In the WPATH, they note that it may exist, but not be expressed: "Even if epidemiological studies established that a similar base rate of gender identity disorders existed all over the world, it is likely that cultural differences from one country to another would alter the behavioral expressions of these conditions."
 
2012-11-11 12:50:13 PM  

queenalice: Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping.


Myria's also west coast, so subtract 3 hours.
 
2012-11-11 12:51:24 PM  

trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?


That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.
 
2012-11-11 12:51:39 PM  

Biological Ali: DrPainMD: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."

You do realize that gender identity and biological sex are two completely different things, right? Nobody actually "thinks they're the opposite sex". 

I mean, if you want to completely reject scientific consensus on a topic, that's one thing, but you should at least make some pretense of understanding what it is you're rejecting if you don't want to look like a moron (well, not as big of a moron anyway).


A) Of course gender identity and biological sex are two completely different things. How is that relevant? Well... it does support my contention that trannies are delusional, so there's that.

B) There is no "scientific consensus," as psychology isn't science. It's political correctness; those psychologists/psychiatrists who haven't conformed have, to a large degree, been run out of the profession. That's not scientific consensus.
 
2012-11-11 12:55:02 PM  

DrPainMD: ciberido: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

It's interesting how much this bothers you. You really, really seem intimidated by transsexuals.

What makes you think that it bothers me at all. For the record: it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


That's not what the language used in your opening post would suggest. You might want to work on presentation.
 
2012-11-11 12:55:30 PM  

DrPainMD: psychology isn't science


That might be where your delusion starts.

/Just because it is harder to acquire valid results and correct interpretations doesn't mean psychology is any less scientific than chemistry. it's just more difficult.
 
2012-11-11 01:01:05 PM  

Bobbi Wickham: brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

My Father's transgendered, I guess I should just head off to your death camp right?


Quagmire?

i1323.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-11 01:04:03 PM  
Theaetetus: runcible spork: Difficult to say from just those quotes. The picture for them is no doubt bigger than that and the article's encapsulation; the WPATH standards of care necessary to have surgery should eliminate the chances that it's simply societal role-related. When an individual is transsexual, the desire to correct one's body is complete and is independent of society. To illustrate, if such a person were stranded on a desert island, alone, he or she would still be possessed of a tremendous, inescapable need to have a "different" body.

Theoretically, yes, but there's no way to eliminate that societal effect. And the WPATH standards don't seem to attempt to do so. Instead, they focus on the pragmatic effect of societal pressure on the patient, as they should: it's far easier to change a single person than to change society.


It's a sensible approach, no? As you say, pragmatic.

There are some societies where a "third sex" is recognized and the associated pressures may be muted, but transsexualism probably exists there as well.

In the WPATH, they note that it may exist, but not be expressed: "Even if epidemiological studies established that a similar base rate of gender identity disorders existed all over the world, it is likely that cultural differences from one country to another would alter the behavioral expressions of these conditions."


Right, but I wonder if studies have been done in such societies, to query "third sex" individuals whether they are aware of and if so have a desire for SRS. I can't imagine there haven't been at least a few such studies for an admittedly marginal but extremely intriguing subject. Also, irrespective of societal (and personal) acceptance, there is an undeniable, tangible and functional difference between having one set of genitalia versus another kind.
 
2012-11-11 01:05:33 PM  

queenalice: Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping. I urge you to read and digest the comments of support you have just in this thread alone. There is more support out there. All hope is not lost! Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.


I'm alive... I fell asleep with my iPad in my hands since it was like 3 am here (Los Angeles time).

Thank you so much for that month of TotalFark. That was really sweet of you <3
 
2012-11-11 01:07:57 PM  
Why is anyone giving characters like Silly Jesus and this DrPainMD the time of day? Neither has any interest in constructive communication.

Myria: things are never quite as hopeless or insurmountable as they all too frequently seem. Please heed the concerned voices and caring sentiments here (and elsewhere, if so).
 
2012-11-11 01:09:23 PM  

DrPainMD: A) Of course gender identity and biological sex are two completely different things. How is that relevant? Well... it does support my contention that trannies are delusional, so there's that.


You clearly don't understand the bolded part at all, else you wouldn't have made this post (or any of the other posts you've made in the thread thus far).

B) There is no "scientific consensus," as psychology isn't science. It's political correctness; those psychologists/psychiatrists who haven't conformed have, to a large degree, been run out of the profession. That's not scientific consensus.

Have you ever heard somebody saying (or perhaps somebody parodying somebody saying) something like "I don't believe in evolution 'cause a monkey ain't never gave birth to no human. And evolution ain't even science if you ask me - all the real scienticians what tell the truth done been throwed by the liberals." Because that's what you're sounding like right now.

I mean, the least you could do is wikipedia these topics so that you have some minimal idea about what exactly it is that you're purporting to reject.
 
2012-11-11 01:16:56 PM  
The ironic thing here is that Katie is better looking then every single subby described 'hottie' that I have seen in every article on Fark. EVER.
 
2012-11-11 01:17:49 PM  
This is beyond farked up. Good for them!
 
2012-11-11 01:37:20 PM  

Myria: queenalice: Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping. I urge you to read and digest the comments of support you have just in this thread alone. There is more support out there. All hope is not lost! Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

I'm alive... I fell asleep with my iPad in my hands since it was like 3 am here (Los Angeles time).

Thank you so much for that month of TotalFark. That was really sweet of you <3



Glad you came back. :) Hugs!

I used to hang out with a transgendered person. He went by Manny, and wore a beard, but said he felt he was a woman, and would occasionally shave, do makeup, etc, and was actually quite convincing due to his small build and stature. He grew up in a small hick town and was bullied very badly, so he grew a tough shell and was as manly as could be when needed, but his feminine side was very evident.

Unfortunately, Manny kinda farked over a good friend of mine, so I no longer associate with him/her (can't recall what his girl name was now, its been years)
 
2012-11-11 01:45:43 PM  
I'm kind of surprised that this thread hasn't gotten that many of the Farkers who truly don't accept transsexualism. Most of the ones who did are obvious trolls or satirists, and don't really count in my mind.

*Hugs dope kitty back*
 
2012-11-11 01:58:38 PM  

dopekitty74: I used to hang out with a transgendered person. He went by Manny, and wore a beard, but said he felt he was a woman, and would occasionally shave, do makeup, etc, and was actually quite convincing due to his small build and stature.


www.tvchannelsfree.com
Proud.
 
2012-11-11 02:01:04 PM  

Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.


"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.
 
2012-11-11 02:04:23 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

-=-
And if he doesn't like it, he will deal with it as HE sees fit, not what you think he sees fit. Okay?
Now get back down on your knees and pray for your soul.

As for me, Cool for them. I am happy for them.
And she's got a good looking bod too.
 
2012-11-11 02:14:22 PM  

dopekitty74: Bobbi Wickham: brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.

My Father's transgendered, I guess I should just head off to your death camp right?

Quagmire?

[i1323.photobucket.com image 235x215]


I happen to be female, and not so into farking everything that moves.
 
2012-11-11 02:15:56 PM  

DrPainMD: cycle23: DrPainMD: Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?

I mean its great they found eachother...but wouldn't they just feel that way anyhow being their own sex?

It's the only delusion supported by the medical community. If you think that you're Napoleon, they lock you in a rubber room, but if you think you're the opposite sex, they encourage you to run with it, and anybody who points out that it's just a delusion is ridiculed and labeled "hater" or "phobic." It's the modern version of "The Emperor's New Clothes."

Since it is supported by "the medical community", perhaps your definintion of the word "delusional" is not the medical definition.

There's no question that it's a delusion. You don't need to be a shrink to figure that out.


There's so much that we DON'T know yet about DNA and genetics. If it is okay to accept that Junior got his eyes from his dad and his eye color from his mom, that he got his left handedness from dad and his musical proficiency from mom, why is it so hard to believe that gender-specific thought patterns (e.g. those thoughts and feelings that make one accept and appreciate that he or she is male or female) could be inherited as well?

Maybe they are and 9 times out of 10 those patterns match the chromosomal makeup but that 1 time where they don't match up is when you end up with someone who has gender identity disorder?

I am not a scientist or anything like that. So if what I am suggesting is absotively posilutely not possible then please let me know so I can learn something.

I don't see how it can be ruled out 100% though. There's still so much we don't know.
 
2012-11-11 02:17:51 PM  

Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.


Counterpoint is that kids are well socialized by age three and easily able to recognize gender stereotypes. Whether gender is hardwired or not is not yet proven (though, you're right in that emulating behavior is hardwired - but they're exposed to those stereotypes starting literally at birth).
 
2012-11-11 02:26:11 PM  

DrPainMD: ciberido: It's interesting how much this bothers you. You really, really seem intimidated by transsexuals.

What makes you think that it bothers me at all. For the record: it doesn't bother me in the slightest.


Sure. That's why you spew such angry posts into thread after thread about transgendered and homosexual people. Because you're not bothered at all. Nosiree.

Really. Get help. You're clearly very agitated by gender/sex. I don't know what your issues are. I'm not a therapist. But I do know you need one.
 
2012-11-11 02:34:04 PM  
Wait a minute here! Somebody posted a video of a guy with lady-parts having sex with a chick with dude-parts (or vice-versa) and it was pretty much just passed over? That was without a doubt the most confusing thing I've ever seen in my life. I had no idea what I suppose to be looking at.
 
2012-11-11 02:36:00 PM  

Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.


There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.
 
2012-11-11 02:37:44 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.
 
2012-11-11 02:39:08 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Yeah...but... Okay I'm really confused.

So transgender really means you think you're born the wrong sex... But how do you know that you're not just gay?


Well you should be really confused to learn, then, that some heterosexuals change sex but are still attracted to people of the same sex they just changed to. So they go from being a straight guy to a lesbian, for instance.

You don't determine what sex you "should" be by looking at who you're attracted to. Those two things are separate.
 
2012-11-11 02:41:30 PM  
No South Park references yet? Fark, I am disappoint.

As for couple - everyone deserves a chance to be happy.
 
2012-11-11 02:41:44 PM  

Oznog: GungFu: I don't think I've seen this porn potential before.

I do hope they embrace the 'entertainment' business.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330][upload.wikimedia.org image 220x330]

Ask and Ye Shall Receive (totally NSFW)

Buck Angel on the left is the only female-to-male transsexual in the porn business. Allanah Starr on the right is a male-to-female transsexual (shemale, all the lower bits intact).

To clarify... that's the pussy on the left, the cock on the right. If you're still confused, watch it, and be more confused than ever. 

Now try to answer "isn't this totally gay??" Well I'd sooner answer "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" I have no farking idea.


Buck Angel's first scene with a guy in "Buckback Mountain" is his hottest scene, in my opinion. Helps that his partner is a hot hunk, too.
 
2012-11-11 02:43:07 PM  

PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.


He was trolling.
 
2012-11-11 02:43:59 PM  

Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.


Actually, on watching the first segment again, she insisted that she was a girl from the time she could first talk.
 
2012-11-11 02:51:30 PM  

LargeCanine: PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.

He was trolling.


Duly noted. I was responding more to the people who genuinely believe this.
 
2012-11-11 02:57:44 PM  

ciberido: Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.

There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.


Interesting. I have a tiny bit of experience with phantom limb syndrome. Working on my motorcycle many years ago, I managed to sever my thumb at the first knuckle by stupidly getting it caught in the chain. Immediately afterwards, it was in a cast; I knew that half of my thumb was gone, but so long as I couldn't see it, it felt as though it was still there. It took some time after the cast was removed for the feeling to go away.
 
2012-11-11 03:02:39 PM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


Myria,

I can't imagine what you go through on a daily basis but I'm so sorry that the world that we live in
makes it necessary for you to go through it.

I totally understand preferring the dream world to the real world. There was a time when I would
have slept 24/7 if I could have.

Please PLEASE know that your life is NOT a waste.
 
2012-11-11 03:03:51 PM  
I had to give my cat species re-alignment surgery because he was a dog. As a cat he kept getting the crap beat out of him for sniffing all the other cats butts. Now as a dog he doesn't sniff cat butts, just dog butts and constantly humps the chair. He looks much happier now.
 
2012-11-11 03:10:56 PM  

PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.

He was trolling.

Duly noted. I was responding more to the people who genuinely believe this.


Who would that be? You are assuming Christians in your post, but most Christians are pretty tolerant. Why not muslims, or Hindus or Zoarastrians?
 
2012-11-11 03:17:42 PM  

ciberido: The problem with your example is that person you're talking about isn't (and wasn't) a guy, normal or otherwise. She was a woman all along.


For certain definitions of the word "woman", anyhow. Transgendered people are not always going to be treated as being exactly the same as anyone else of their new sex in all respects, not even by people who are otherwise tolerant and accepting.
 
2012-11-11 03:20:43 PM  

StopLurkListen:

And some of my best friends are passed out in a pool of their own vomit, so I say that with love.


takes a lot of vomit to fill a pool. Are we talking kiddie wading pool, reflection pool, or Olympic sized pool? This is important.
 
2012-11-11 03:23:13 PM  

LargeCanine: PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.

He was trolling.

Duly noted. I was responding more to the people who genuinely believe this.

Who would that be? You are assuming Christians in your post, but most Christians are pretty tolerant. Why not muslims, or Hindus or Zoarastrians?


Well, first, Silly Jesus was using a standard asshole!Christian talking point, not a Hindi\Zoarastrian\Muslim talking point. Second, in reference to your bolded part...no, the statistical majority of Christian Americans are glorified assholes misusing Bible quotes. There are some awesome Christians out there, and there is no religion without a ton of assholes, but in America if you meet a religious nutjob, odds are pretty good it's a Christian who is fairly well accepted in his\her community.
 
2012-11-11 03:24:38 PM  

mikewadestr: I had to give my cat species re-alignment surgery because he was a dog. As a cat he kept getting the crap beat out of him for sniffing all the other cats butts. Now as a dog he doesn't sniff cat butts, just dog butts and constantly humps the chair. He looks much happier now.


Derp.
 
2012-11-11 03:29:33 PM  

Darth_Lukecash: Part of me used to wonder if the whole homophobia of our culture drove people in believing that they were born in the wrong body. But I guess it's deeper than that! They look in the mirror and sees someone far different than how the feel!


That is exactly the way I describe it. For years as a teen I refused to be around mirrors because the image there wasn't me. It couldn't be; it was wrong. I grew up so backwoods that the words transgender wasn't even in my vocabulary, so I couldn't explain it to anyone why mirrors were lying to me, but I knew they were.

Finally got up the courage to face my family and start talking about it and they took the shortcut by telling me I was intersexed.

But for me, who I was attracted to never entered into the question. I had settled with myself that long before, and my gender didn't even enter the equation. And, as I said, middle of no-where coal mining county, so homophobia was strong there; but I knew I was bi long before I knew my brain's gender didn't match my body's.
 
2012-11-11 03:32:49 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: See this person?

images.art.com

www.erikacoimbra.com.br

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.


Eh, while I understand the point you're making, I'm not sure how relevant it is. I don't think I've ever met anyone who considers chromosomes to be the arbiter of sex. For just about everyone it comes down to the body and junk someone is born with.
 
2012-11-11 03:42:11 PM  

Gawdzila: The Jami Turman Fan Club: See this person?

images.art.com

www.erikacoimbra.com.br

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Eh, while I understand the point you're making, I'm not sure how relevant it is. I don't think I've ever met anyone who considers chromosomes to be the arbiter of sex. For just about everyone it comes down to the body and junk someone is born with.


Then you haven't read many of these threads on Fark. "If you are XX, you're female, XY, you're male" Ok then, here's an XY human with CAIS who looks and feels completely female. "Ok, well if you have a penis, you're male, if you have a vagina, you're female." Well then, here's an intersex individual who has breasts, a vagina, and a penis. "....!"

And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as? If such a person feels either that they are male or female, where does that sense of identity come from? I'm comfortable in thinking that it's hardwired from birth, and that more and more evidence will emerge to support this.
 
2012-11-11 03:42:41 PM  

Myria: queenalice: Myria, can you check back in at some point? It's concerning that the last thing you wrote was ... well, what it was. It's Sunday, so maybe by your own admission you're sleeping. I urge you to read and digest the comments of support you have just in this thread alone. There is more support out there. All hope is not lost! Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

I'm alive... I fell asleep with my iPad in my hands since it was like 3 am here (Los Angeles time).

Thank you so much for that month of TotalFark. That was really sweet of you <3


You're very welcome. Your situation is not enviable but it is also not insurmountable. Have you watched Lana Wachowski's Human Rights Campaign speech? Watch it. 

There is a silver lining to your cloud. You can find it. Stretch it so it blankets out the gray.

I don't know what your gifts and passions are, but I know you must have them. Maybe (just a guess) it's writing. If so - write about what you are going through. Day by day.

There will be someone in the future who will read it and will suffer that much less knowing you went through the same thing and came out the other side.

Just one suggestion, maybe a trite one. I don't have all (or maybe any of) the answers -
but I know you are not a waste. You are extraordinary.

And as Pink sings, f*cking perfect.
 
2012-11-11 03:46:22 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Silly Jesus, trolling's for kids!
 
2012-11-11 03:55:58 PM  
It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.
 
2012-11-11 03:58:29 PM  

Gawdzila: ciberido: The problem with your example is that person you're talking about isn't (and wasn't) a guy, normal or otherwise. She was a woman all along.

For certain definitions of the word "woman", anyhow. Transgendered people are not always going to be treated as being exactly the same as anyone else of their new sex in all respects, not even by people who are otherwise tolerant and accepting.


It's an issue in the lbgtq community as well. A number of transwomen (born with male genitalia but identifying as women) have reported that they've been uninvited or made to feel unwelcome at women-only events, even as transmen (born with female genitalia but identifying as men), who themselves say that they are NOT women, are made welcome.  There's a good bit of tension there.

Also, a small nitpick to minimize confusion. I'm talking specifically about transsexual people, not transgender people in general.

Transgender is an umbrella term that includes transsexualism. Nothing you said was wrong, but not all transgender people identify as being 100% male or 100% female. Almost all transsexuals, however, identify as being whole one of the two "basic" or "normal" genders --- just not the one whose genitals they were born with.
 
2012-11-11 04:01:14 PM  

CrappityCrap: It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.


Liar. You aren't saddened in the slightest. You're positively gleeful at the thought of the "weirdos" suffering for their "perversions."

Don't throw away so easily what shreds of credibility you might have left.
 
2012-11-11 04:08:09 PM  

Myria:

No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


As others have said, our life is valuable for itself, because it's yours. As far as the limits of technology in re: your body type, you might be pleasantly surprised. My ex is a trans woman who is extremely large and burly/beefy, but nevertheless since she started hormones the change has been enormous; no surgery, just hormones and lases on the face for hair removal. She reports feeling much better, and to be honest, if I hadn't met her before her transition I wouldn't have known. For that matter, another ex of mine is a cis woman who was so butch that she was routinely mistaken for my boyfriend when we were in public. If advice from a cis man means anything to you, I'd say to start taking those steps. Regardless, know that there are people out there who support you, and your right to be who and what you need to be.


Theaetetus:

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?


For many individuals, yes.
 
2012-11-11 04:21:19 PM  

digitalrain: Please PLEASE know that your life is NOT a waste.


bears repeating .
 
2012-11-11 04:21:30 PM  

PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: LargeCanine: PsiChick: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Well, that's fine, but they aren't Christian. Here in America, we don't tell people to follow our religion, or criticize them based on our personal religious beliefs. After all, I could tell you that you're disobeying the Goddess by being rude to two people who are happy (where there are happy people, the Goddess is there, and while it's two people, not three, my interpretation is that anywhere there is joy is the realm of the Goddess), but I'm not, because I recognize you are a Christian and I don't get to criticize other people based on my personal beliefs.

He was trolling.

Duly noted. I was responding more to the people who genuinely believe this.

Who would that be? You are assuming Christians in your post, but most Christians are pretty tolerant. Why not muslims, or Hindus or Zoarastrians?

Well, first, Silly Jesus was using a standard asshole!Christian talking point, not a Hindi\Zoarastrian\Muslim talking point. Second, in reference to your bolded part...no, the statistical majority of Christian Americans are glorified assholes misusing Bible quotes. There are some awesome Christians out there, and there is no religion without a ton of assholes, but in America if you meet a religious nutjob, odds are pretty good it's a Christian who is fairly well accepted in his\her community.


Christians are the large majority in the USA, and statistically its a safe bet to assume. Also, I disagree, the vast majority of Christians in the US are decent, tolerant and forgiving. In any large group of people, there are bound to be a few jerks.

Not trying to pick a fight. I am a little offbeat sometimes. I tend to be critical of people with whom I agree because I want them to be effective and helpful allies. My purpose in starting this thread with you was to gently point out that your post was rather sanctamonious. Tolerance goes both ways.
 
2012-11-11 04:31:37 PM  
everybody deserves a shot a happiness

I can't imagine anyone that has this much turbulence in their young life is totally at peace, geeze I couldn't stand being 16 years old.

My best to them both
 
2012-11-11 04:38:06 PM  

LargeCanine: Christians are the large majority in the USA, and statistically its a safe bet to assume. Also, I disagree, the vast majority of Christians in the US are decent, tolerant and forgiving. In any large group of people, there are bound to be a few jerks.

Not trying to pick a fight. I am a little offbeat sometimes. I tend to be critical of people with whom I agree because I want them to be effective and helpful allies. My purpose in starting this thread with you was to gently point out that your post was rather sanctamonious. Tolerance goes both ways.


I agree, but I also believe that sometimes there's a point where you have to actually say 'no, this group just is being an asshole'. I believe it stems from the fact that Christians are the majority, but most Christians in my experience are very intolerant unless you have the 'Christian straight white' label. They won't go up and spit in your face, but they won't be too subtle about thinking you're a Satanist\spawn of the devil, either.

There are wonderful, amazing Christians, but in my experience, that isn't the statistical majority.

/Not trying to pick a fight either...I just think it's easy to mistake people being tolerant of what they see as 'their own' for real tolerance.
 
2012-11-11 04:44:13 PM  

UndeadPoetsSociety: "That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?"

For many individuals, yes.


Perhaps, but perhaps not. In the absence of a neutral society, it's pretty much impossible to answer, and mostly irrelevant.
 
2012-11-11 04:45:24 PM  

Repo Man: Then you haven't read many of these threads on Fark. "If you are XX, you're female, XY, you're male"


That's probably true, I'm not a regular participant. Though I'm not sure Fark is a representative sample of the population :p. Besides, I bet (as you noted) that if you confronted them with an XY female they'd fall back on the "well, she was born with a vagina" thing.

Repo Man: And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as?


Most intersex people do not have both external genitalia -- that sort of hermaphrodite is extraordinarily rare. "Intersex" is a very broad term, and actually includes XY females. "Ambiguous genitalia", or cases of having mismatched external and internal genitalia are more common. I suspect that people would say that they "should" live as whatever sex they most resemble while wearing clothes. Personally, I don't care what they do.

Repo Man: If such a person feels either that they are male or female, where does that sense of identity come from? I'm comfortable in thinking that it's hardwired from birth, and that more and more evidence will emerge to support this.


I'd agree with that. It seems to me that even looking at current evidence from genetics, developmental biology, and psychology, it leads towards the conclusion that gender identity is hardwired by the brain and endocrine system sometime before birth in a way that is usually -- but not always -- in accordance with the sex chromosomes.


ciberido: Nothing you said was wrong, but not all transgender people identify as being 100% male or 100% female.


TBH I think that's more reasonable anyhow. It simply isn't possible or even desirable to cram everyone into two genders. Trying to do so would just put everyone, from strict heterosexual men to transwomen, in awkward positions.

ciberido: Almost all transsexuals, however, identify as being whole one of the two "basic" or "normal" genders --- just not the one whose genitals they were born with.


That's pretty much expected, since for most practical purposes we're pretty much geared towards only recognizing two sexes.
 
2012-11-11 04:46:58 PM  

ciberido: Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.

There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.


Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.
 
2012-11-11 04:56:35 PM  

Theaetetus: ciberido: Repo Man: Theaetetus: trlkly: In my opinion, this is the real problem. The fact that our society is so heteronormative that you think you have to go on as a guy when you're really a girl. Why can't you just act like a girl and no one care?

That's what my question was getting towards... If society didn't care, would surgery still be required?

It's a purely academic question - we're not going to change society any time soon.

"Jazz" knew she was a girl at age three. There is hardwiring involved in this. No, I don't think girls are hardwired to wear makeup and dresses; but it does seem likely that each gender is hardwired to emulate the behavior of others (including the manner of dress, and other decorations) of their same gender where ever they grow up. The gender of the brain is the important part.

There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.

Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.




Be careful with that phantom limb / "autogynephilia" / Anne Lawrence information. It's highly suspect.
 
2012-11-11 05:00:48 PM  
I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common for people to get sex changes and regret them later - which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them. At that age they are all confused and farked up even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL those people were 100% positive they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds.
 
2012-11-11 05:05:34 PM  
I hear that girls will be boys and boys will be girls, it's a crazy mixed up world.
 
2012-11-11 05:11:43 PM  

Gawdzila: Repo Man: And, what of intersex individuals? If you have the external organs of both sexes, which sex should you choose to live as?

Most intersex people do not have both external genitalia -- that sort of hermaphrodite is extraordinarily rare. "Intersex" is a very broad term, and actually includes XY females. "Ambiguous genitalia", or cases of having mismatched external and internal genitalia are more common. I suspect that people would say that they "should" live as whatever sex they most resemble while wearing clothes. Personally, I don't care what they do.


Many of those with such conditions would not fit a social-normative appearance without hormones at some point. Put a 3 month old in a dress, they will look like a girl to a modern person, and may look like a boy to someone from the 1800s. Once they hit the age of picking clothing for themselves, that will be somewhat influenced by hormones (if they are taking any) and the gender they are raised (if any) and their own body image trying to make an appearance. Hell, fark is full of "Who is that Beiber chick?" memes, even young teens look agendered til secondary characteristics show up, which won't without hormones or padding.

From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth (damn Money and his ilk); or they should be what ever the doctor's determine their genes to be (and damn religious nutbags too). Growing up around a combination of both of those (might have crossed Money's path, know I met a few of his proteges) these people do exist and up till the last 5 or 10 years took their opinions very, very seriously. And having talked to a few neonatal nurses, at least in this area the predominant view is still assign at birth and never speak of it again.

/trying to change minds one nurse at a time
 
2012-11-11 05:12:33 PM  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wFZre6ebI

THIS
 
2012-11-11 05:12:56 PM  

charmingkiddo: I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common

[Weasel words] for people[Whom?] to get sex changes and regret them later[Citation Needed]- which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them[Editorializing]. At that age they are all confused[Citation Needed] and farked up[Citation Needed] even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age[Citation Needed]. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL[Citation Needed] those people[Weasel words] were 100% positive[Citation Needed] they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds[Citation Needed].
 
2012-11-11 05:15:04 PM  

Theaetetus: charmingkiddo:


...

Thanks for taking the trouble to annotate that properly.
 
2012-11-11 05:15:53 PM  

charmingkiddo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-wFZre6ebI


"OMG, some people have more problems than just transsexualism, and therefore transgender people don't exist!"

1/10 since I had to reply to this
 
2012-11-11 05:19:32 PM  

CrappityCrap: It saddens me that this is the one mental illness no one wants to properly treat. We'll never unlock the mysteries of the mind if we continue to ignore the root causes of these conditions.


It saddens me to see people trying so hard to rationalize prejudice by clinging to outmoded and scientifically discredited definitions of mental illness. Fun fact, homosexuality was considered a mental illness for most of the 20th century -are you still on that boat? 
Here lemme show you how it's done:

brobinson2001: Not trolling, but thank Nature they figured this out before they reproduced. Yeah, it's heartwarming on an emotional level, but from a purely genetic standpoint, I'm glad they both got snipped before spreading this crap into the general gene pool, and weakening the entire species.


twiztedjustin: Well, at least they can't breed

Ya see, as revolting as the opinions of twizted and brobinson may be, they at least aren't pretending that they aren't just straight-up bigot. They've gone full-on hate (brobinson even made a point of saying "no, I'm not even trolling, I'm really just a straight-up bigot" ) , and as ugly as their attitudes are, they don't require them to lie to themselves.

But you, Crappity, you're trying to be something else, and nobody's buyin' it. Eventually, you're going to have to admit that your attitude basically comes from a place of discomfort and intolerance of people who are different. Don't pretend it's anything else.
 
2012-11-11 05:24:50 PM  
Charmingkiddo, Kim Petras laughs at you.
 
2012-11-11 06:21:30 PM  

ykarie: From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth


Huh, that's surprising to me. I'd have imagined that the general population would want whatever option would present them with the least amount of cognitive dissonance with the idea that everyone is either male or female. A very masculine-looking intersexed person trying to pass themselves off as a girl would probably make your average person feel more uncomfortable than if they had just went with the guy look.
 
2012-11-11 06:43:28 PM  

clevernamehere: Shadowtag: It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.

This is officially the greatest image ever. Does it exist somewhere or do I have to make it?


img29.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-11 06:45:38 PM  

runcible spork: Theaetetus: ciberido: There's evidence that transsexuals have different "phantom limb" issues than non-transseuxals when it comes to their genitalia. This strongly suggests that a transsexual really is a case of a male brain inside a female body or vice-versa. A mtf's brain, for example, may well have a "female body map" imprinted into it from birth. 

There's also anecdotal evidence that this extends to a kind of "phantom breast syndrome" as well, but it hasn't been studied scientifically as far as I know.

Was actually just reading about stuff around that, too. The problem there is that phantom limb stuff, by definition, is self-reported, so if you're trying to make a determination as to whether something is mental or physical, self-reporting can only confuse it.


Be careful with that phantom limb / "autogynephilia" / Anne Lawrence information. It's highly suspect.



It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt. 

Legally in the United States, it matters, because protected class status is easier to get if the basis is something you "cannot help" like national origin or race. On the other hand, religion is a protected class, and that's a matter of choice. So far as I know, you're not born Catholic; you choose to be Catholic, and you could choose to be Hindu or Atheist instead. So I think we'll eventually see federal laws giving all "lbgtq-ness" (or "queerness" if you don't mind that term) protected status even if science does a "U-Turn" and comes out saying "Oh, it's all just in their darling little heads."

But it will be -easier- to advance the "gay agenda" for equal rights if science DOES confirm that we were all born this way. Still, in the long run, we WILL have our civil rights, no matter what the homophobes and transphobes and Religious Right say, and regardless of what new scientific discoveries are made. 

I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.
 
2012-11-11 06:51:50 PM  

Gawdzila: ykarie: From experience, though, your suspicion is wrong and most people do not think they "should live as what ever sex they most resemble"; at least in the south. Portions still think they should be what ever sex the doctors decide at birth

Huh, that's surprising to me. I'd have imagined that the general population would want whatever option would present them with the least amount of cognitive dissonance with the idea that everyone is either male or female. A very masculine-looking intersexed person trying to pass themselves off as a girl would probably make your average person feel more uncomfortable than if they had just went with the guy look.


I think you missed the part about Dr. Money see specifically the part about David Reimer. No one is masculine or feminine at birth except for one thing according to Dr. Money. The hard wiring of the the brain though has already happened and cannot be changed and if taken care of early enough the body can be changed to match the brain but not the other way around.
 
2012-11-11 06:52:58 PM  

queenalice: clevernamehere: Shadowtag: It's like being surrounded by hellhound puppies who only breath fire when they burp.

This is officially the greatest image ever. Does it exist somewhere or do I have to make it?

[img29.imageshack.us image 691x476]


You are now so awesome, LOL : )
 
2012-11-11 06:54:38 PM  

ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...



I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.
 
2012-11-11 06:59:20 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.
 
2012-11-11 07:00:29 PM  

charmingkiddo: I don't see how mutilating your genitals makes you a different gender. If that makes you happy - go for it, but lets be real about what this is.

I do however, have a problem with letting 15 and 16 year olds do this.

http://www.sexchangeregret.com/

If you check out this website you will see it is pretty common for people to get sex changes and regret them later - which is why minors shouldn't be allowed to have them. At that age they are all confused and farked up even if everything is going great in their lives - it's just a confusing and awkward age. I say make people at least wait until they are 18 to give them a few more years to decide if that is what they really want to do. If you checked out that URL you will note that ALL those people were 100% positive they wanted a sex change, and later changed their minds.



There is the POSSIBILITY that a person could regret a sex-change operation after it happened, yes. However, there are two points which are important to balance against that possibility, which you conveniently ignore:

First, there are already in place numerous safeguards to "catch" and "filter out" anyone who isn't a very good candidate (in the sense that they would regret it later). So the vast majority of people who would regreat a sex change operation are "caught" and discouraged from getting one before they go under the knife, so to speak. In fact, the very case your website trumpets, Ria Cooper, is an example of the system WORKING. That's kind of sad when you trumpet on your home page evidence that DISCREDITS your own argument.

(There was a whole thread about Ria Cooper on Fark a while back, by the way. I don't remember seeing you there. Feel free to check it out, as most of the points we could make to you are already in that thread.)

Second, as I already said earlier in this thread, there are very good reasons why you should start the process AS SOON AS POSSIBLE once you know that you are truly dealing with someone who needs this change. However advisable it might be to delay surgery until age 18, it is extremely INadvisable to force a transsexual to wait to 18 before they can start hormone therapy. Since I already posted about this, I'll just advise you to read the entire thread up to here before responding.  I'd rather not retype or cut-and-paste what I've already written.

Lastly, I have to ask what EVIDENCE you have to back up the claims sexchangeregret.com made. There's no Wikipedia article on that website, nor on Walt Heyer, nor on "Paper Genders." The Amazon.com reviews of his book are scathing. He doesn't seem to be much of an authority on anything. Why should we take this website seriously?
 
2012-11-11 07:01:39 PM  

ciberido: I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.


Same here and love that song : )
 
2012-11-11 07:08:09 PM  

cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.


Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.
 
2012-11-11 07:09:53 PM  

cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.


What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.
 
2012-11-11 07:11:37 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.



That's fine, Maggie, but that's simply overlap.
 
2012-11-11 07:19:06 PM  

ciberido: I'm actually kind of jazzed to alive at this time and place in history. Rather like the song. It's like we're at top of a hill looking down at our destination. We've still got a long way to go, but it's mostly downhill from here.


I'm rather ashamed to admit, I don't think I remember ever having heard that song not in the context of car commercials. Though, I suppose I do have an excuse, being only 10 when it was released and all.

Back on topic, I agree that it's kind of exciting to be living at this point in time. Sure, there's a long way to go and a lot of work to be done, especially for trans people, but the fact that there's an end point that we can see is huge. People back when I was born who were the age then that I am now certainly wouldn't have been able to say that.
 
2012-11-11 07:27:14 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Not to mention that many trans people are LGB in their life as their identified gender.

That's fine, Maggie, but that's simply overlap.


Aw, but I only said many overlap not all, yet the issues, can be vary similar, take marriage rights for example say a mtf that was married to their wife for 10 years before transition and the decided to stay together are they still married? Not legally their marriage can be overturned by the state. That's one real life example I know of and then there are so many others I'm sure one more is working to ensure children/adults aren't bullied, harassed, killed because the don't fit a hetero-normative pattern.

/Beter?
 
2012-11-11 07:30:15 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.



First off, I think it makes pretty good sense, honestly, because what all LGBTQ people have (yes, even the Qs) in common is that we face discrimination and ignorance because of sex and gender --- whether it be our OWN sex/gender or the sex/gender of the folks we fall in love with.

Second, I personally would go the opposite route --- I'd like to see CLOSER ties between the LBGTQ community and feminism, precisely because feminism, too, is about fighting discrimination that is based on sex or gender. Indeed, the more I read about misogyny, anti-feminism, homophobia, and transphobia, the more I think that those are essentially facets of the same "gem" (or polyhedron if you're a math geek or "multi-sided die" if you're a gamer geek). And that "gem," I suspect is hegemonic masculinity, the source of all this nonsense humanity has been struggling with for thousands or even millions of years. 

Third, as a bisexual myself, I'm well aware that the same people who want to jettison the T out of LBGTQ would like to get rid of the bisexuals as well, even though we are actually the majority of your group. "First they'll came for the transgender...." might be overstating the case a bit, but we need to hang together or we'll all hang separately after the LBGTQ community becomes a gay boys-only club. And don't think we don't know that that's what some of you boys want.

Fourth, if the problem is that people are confused and misinformed, then EDUCATE them. As has already been pointed out in this thread, there was a time when the homosexual on television was Jodie Dallas (played by Billy Crystal), a gay man who wore a dress. We as a society have learned since then that "man who wears a dress" and "gay man" are not synonyms. We've made progress. We're going to keep making progress. Cutting loose the "deadweight" really isn't going to speed things along. 

And Fifth, of course, it would be a vile and selfish thing to do. But I put this argument last since it seems the one least likely to sway you.
 
2012-11-11 07:33:12 PM  

runcible spork: What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.


It wasn't plainly evident to him or to me. So maybe the problem wasn't on his end. In any case, tone down the defensiveness a bit.
 
2012-11-11 07:37:07 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.


Except that a lot of the discrimination that LGB people face is less about orientation than it is about non-normative gender presentation. Or, in other words, women who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "feminine" in their gender presentation or men who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "masculine". The trans issues are part and parcel with the way that society policies gender and tries to quash anyone who is gender non-conforming. Make it better for one group and you make it better for all groups.

Besides, I think it's wrong on a moral standpoint to leave trans people behind as the rest of us get more equality because they've been there fighting for equality alongside LGB people from the beginning. At Stonewall, people talk about how "the drag queens fought back", well, a lot of those people who fought back weren't actually drag queens, they were trans women. LGB people wouldn't be on the verge of full equality without those trans women saying that no, they weren't going to let the police shove them around anymore, and to ignore them now or cut them out of the movement that they've been fighting in for decades is wrong.
 
2012-11-11 07:39:23 PM  

Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.
 
2012-11-11 07:52:15 PM  

runcible spork: cassanovascotian: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

You're so right. If you're part of a marginalized group, as soon as you start to receive a small degree of acceptance, it's best to consolidate your "normal" status within society by joining in on the hate against the next group that happens to be slightly more marginalized and less accepted than yours is. This is in no way hypocritical at all.

What I believe is your attempt at sarcasm fails to register here. At no time did I express hate for a particular group, not did I even suggest it. I'm against ignorance and misunderstanding, which I guess is why I'm trying to explain this to you. Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread. Or perhaps you did, in which case my task may be futile for your case.

p.s. Always a smooth move to jump in with hate without recognizing context. Nice going, Champ.


I just read that one post of yours without context, and yes, after reading some of your other posts, realized that I had miscontrued what you were saying. My apologies.
 
2012-11-11 08:03:29 PM  

aerojockey: Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.


If you have her email, I hope that you send her that. I was going to send some links but no eip, and it would be creepy to ask a fwd from a modmin. I think she could use all the friends in the world right about now- I have been there and in almost the same boat. Im planning on sticking it to the human factory and not going away, even if i am fugly.
 
2012-11-11 08:09:12 PM  

alienated: aerojockey: Myria, if it makes you feel any better, when I met you at the LA meetup I didn't think you looked strongly masculine other than being taller than most women.

If you have her email, I hope that you send her that


By send her that, I mean your post, by the by.
 
2012-11-11 08:22:35 PM  

Myria: Those who tell us that we should just accept our birth gender don't understand that they're asking us to kill ourselves. We'd rather be dead than have to live as the sex we were born. The mental pain from feeling that you're the opposite gender, known as gender dysphoria, is extremely intense and often leads to suicide.

I'm still living as male because I still look male. From this, I have suicidal thoughts several times per week from gender dysphoria. I sleep all day on weekends because the dream world is so much less painful than the real world, and keeps me from crying.

My life is a waste.


I know this was posted yesterday, but I think I would hate myself if I didn't respond:

/HUG
 
2012-11-11 08:33:05 PM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?



Both?
 
2012-11-11 08:37:42 PM  

rynthetyn: runcible spork: ciberido: It's too early to be 100% certain, yes. But scientific evidence for the "born this way" theory of both transgender and homosexual (and bisexual) people seems to be mounting. I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to say that it will PROBABLY turn out that most lbgt people were born lbgt...

I abhor the idea of carelessly and ignorantly linking the "T" to the "LGB" grouping. It makes barely any sense. While it may have pragmatic political value (though I consider it to be dubious), especially in the short term, it ultimately confuses and misinforms people.

Except that a lot of the discrimination that LGB people face is less about orientation than it is about non-normative gender presentation. Or, in other words, women who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "feminine" in their gender presentation or men who are discriminated against for being insufficiently "masculine". The trans issues are part and parcel with the way that society policies gender and tries to quash anyone who is gender non-conforming. Make it better for one group and you make it better for all groups.

Besides, I think it's wrong on a moral standpoint to leave trans people behind as the rest of us get more equality because they've been there fighting for equality alongside LGB people from the beginning. At Stonewall, people talk about how "the drag queens fought back", well, a lot of those people who fought back weren't actually drag queens, they were trans women. LGB people wouldn't be on the verge of full equality without those trans women saying that no, they weren't going to let the police shove them around anymore, and to ignore them now or cut them out of the movement that they've been fighting in for decades is wrong.


Very true, I know not all the issues are the same but everybody benefits if people can be who they are without threat of violence or discrimination.
 
2012-11-11 08:39:42 PM  

Toddicusrex: The ironic thing here is that Katie is better looking then every single subby described 'hottie' that I have seen in every article on Fark. EVER.


You're right man.. Everyone keeps posting about weird boners, but it's not weird. I let my boner decide what is sexy and what is not!

/boner
 
2012-11-11 08:46:17 PM  
ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

It's a mistake to conflate gender and sexuality, and the general populace will never become educated if the groups are lumped together simply because they're both marginalized and have "something to do with sex." It promulgates ignorance and misinformation. To use a freighted expression, it's a shotgun wedding, at best. Short-term pragmatism, as I said.

The truth is, many transsexual people are quite conservative when it comes to sexuality and/or gender and the expressions thereof. Obviously I'm not referring to those who identify as "gender-fluid," "gender outlaws," or who have for whatever reasons a pathological inclination to challenge society's dualistic expectations and norms. Ironically, in many ways transsexual folks are much less threatening to the status quo (except for the big one, that so many people for whatever reasons (religious dogma, societal priming, who knows?) have a deeper visceral disapprobation to a seemingly more fundamental "deviation").
 
2012-11-11 08:50:06 PM  
(Yes, I admit that I can be obdurate, and sometimes naïve. And I also realize that this can be a self-defeating combination.)
 
2012-11-11 08:55:52 PM  

runcible spork: Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread.


In that case, let me lay point number six on you:

If you're transsexual, people are always going to think you're homosexual, whether you are or not. Look at for Chaz Bono as one example, and compare him to Matt Kailey. Both are transmen or female-to-male trannsexuals. Bono is attracted to women; Kailey is attracted to men. Bono considers himself to be a straight man; Kailey considers himself to be a gay man -- or at least, he is, and has always been, attracted to men. But many people call Chaz Bono a lesbian, and people who see Kailey walking down the straight holding his boyfriend's hand will think of him as a gay man.

In other words, whether a particular transsexual perceives herself as gay or not, somebody is going to call her a homosexual, as is going to treat her the same way he treats other homosexuals. So pretty much all transsexuals are going to have to deal with homophobia on some level.

Actually, if you have the time, get a copy of Kailey's book "Just Add Hormones" and read the chapter titled "you say GLB, I say GLBT." It lays out the argument better than I can. 

But that's reason number six. whether or not you as a transsexual consider yourself to be gay, you're going to be subjected to homophobia, guaranteed.
 
2012-11-11 09:02:25 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

It's a mistake to conflate gender and sexuality, and the general populace will never become educated if the groups are lumped together simply because they're both marginalized and have "something to do with sex." It promulgates ignorance and misinformation. To use a freighted expression, it's a shotgun wedding, at best. Short-term pragmatism, as I said.

The truth is, many transsexual people are quite conservative when it comes to sexuality and/or gender and the expressions thereof. Obviously I'm not referring to those who identify as "gender-fluid," "gender outlaws," or who have for whatever reasons a pathological inclination to challenge society's dualistic expectations and norms. Ironically, in many ways transsexual folks are much less threatening to the status quo (except for the big one, that so many people for whatever reasons (religious dogma, societal priming, who knows?) have a deeper visceral disapprobation to a seemingly more fundamental "deviation").


Okay, so what would you're answer be? They not be inclusive, either the LGB or T? Why? so many of the issues are right there and to say transsexual people are conservative have you ever heard of log cabin republicans? Also I'm thinking your talking about the way older set of trans gender. Ya, I've met a few of them over the years but well the case I named the marriage thing was actually on of them but I haven't spoken to her in years so hopefully she's change her mind.
 
2012-11-11 09:02:52 PM  

runujhkj: The only problem I have with articles like these is that when they're called out as transgendered in the headline, I'm just looking at the picture going "well duh, I can totally tell." You should withhold that information so I'm looking at the picture saying "what a strangely typical couple, what's odd about this?" Then, at the end, BAM - transgendered. And then people are shaken, like "whaaaat I totally couldn't tell from that picture." Maybe make a few people think. Not many, but maybe a few.


THIS. I recently learned that one of my coworkers was transgender. Been working with her for about a year and a half, Never had a clue. She, on the other hand, was shocked that I *didn't* know.
 
2012-11-11 09:03:14 PM  

ciberido: runcible spork: Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread.

In that case, let me lay point number six on you:

If you're transsexual, people are always going to think you're homosexual, whether you are or not. Look at for Chaz Bono as one example, and compare him to Matt Kailey. Both are transmen or female-to-male trannsexuals. Bono is attracted to women; Kailey is attracted to men. Bono considers himself to be a straight man; Kailey considers himself to be a gay man -- or at least, he is, and has always been, attracted to men. But many people call Chaz Bono a lesbian, and people who see Kailey walking down the straight holding his boyfriend's hand will think of him as a gay man.

In other words, whether a particular transsexual perceives herself as gay or not, somebody is going to call her a homosexual, as is going to treat her the same way he treats other homosexuals. So pretty much all transsexuals are going to have to deal with homophobia on some level.

Actually, if you have the time, get a copy of Kailey's book "Just Add Hormones" and read the chapter titled "you say GLB, I say GLBT." It lays out the argument better than I can. 

But that's reason number six. whether or not you as a transsexual consider yourself to be gay, you're going to be subjected to homophobia, guaranteed.



... if people remain uneducated and confusion is promulgated by misinformation. See?
 
2012-11-11 09:19:59 PM  

Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.


Next you'll blame them for Hurricane Sandy, right? Why don't you and God go help some of those unfortunate people and leave these two the fark alone?
 
2012-11-11 09:20:07 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

It's a mistake to conflate gender and sexuality, and the general populace will never become educated if the groups are lumped together simply because they're both marginalized and have "something to do with sex." It promulgates ignorance and misinformation. To use a freighted expression, it's a shotgun wedding, at best. Short-term pragmatism, as I said.

The truth is, many transsexual people are quite conservative when it comes to sexuality and/or gender and the expressions thereof. Obviously I'm not referring to those who identify as "gender-fluid," "gender outlaws," or who have for whatever reasons a pathological inclination to challenge society's dualistic expectations and norms. Ironically, in many ways transsexual folks are much less threatening to the status quo (except for the big one, that so many people for whatever reasons (religious dogma, societal priming, who knows?) have a deeper visceral disapprobation to a seemingly more fundamental "deviation").

Okay, so what would you're answer be? They not be inclusive, either the LGB or T? Why? so many of the issues are right there and to say transsexual people are conservative have you ever heard of log cabin republicans? Also I'm thinking your talking about the way older set of trans gender. Ya, I've met a few of them over the years but well the case I named the marriage thing was actually on of them but I haven't spoken to her in years so hopefully she's change her mind.


"conservative when it comes to sexuality" does not equate to voting republican.

i'm going out on a limb here to suggest he means not letting it all hang out or content to fly under the radar.

/I also think it should be LGB and T, not LGBT.
 
2012-11-11 09:25:38 PM  

ciberido: runcible spork: Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread.

In that case, let me lay point number six on you:

If you're transsexual, people are always going to think you're homosexual, whether you are or not. Look at for Chaz Bono as one example, and compare him to Matt Kailey. Both are transmen or female-to-male trannsexuals. Bono is attracted to women; Kailey is attracted to men. Bono considers himself to be a straight man; Kailey considers himself to be a gay man -- or at least, he is, and has always been, attracted to men. But many people call Chaz Bono a lesbian, and people who see Kailey walking down the straight holding his boyfriend's hand will think of him as a gay man.

In other words, whether a particular transsexual perceives herself as gay or not, somebody is going to call her a homosexual, as is going to treat her the same way he treats other homosexuals. So pretty much all transsexuals are going to have to deal with homophobia on some level.

Actually, if you have the time, get a copy of Kailey's book "Just Add Hormones" and read the chapter titled "you say GLB, I say GLBT." It lays out the argument better than I can. 

But that's reason number six. whether or not you as a transsexual consider yourself to be gay, you're going to be subjected to homophobia, guaranteed.


And on the flip side, I can't remember the source, but there is a fairly decent case to be made that given what is known about brain structure and how gay men tend to have brains that are more similar to straight women than to straight men and that gay women tend to have brains more similar to straight men than to straight women, that LGB really all belong on a broader T spectrum. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that classification, but the idea that anyone who is transgressing traditional gender expectations is in a similar boat is worth considering.
 
2012-11-11 09:30:13 PM  

dumbobruni: tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

[ ... ]

"conservative when it comes to sexuality" does not equate to voting republican.

i'm going out on a limb here to suggest he she means not letting it all hang out or content to fly under the radar.

/I also think it should be LGB and T, not LGBT.



Maggie's correct in pointing out that it's associated with an "old-school" mentality, but there are many, many younger transsexual people who want to be "stealth." Some might say it's still the gold standard (although it certainly would be nice if society wasn't so uptight and judgmental).
 
2012-11-11 09:30:53 PM  

runcible spork: ciberido: runcible spork: Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread.

In that case, let me lay point number six on you:

If you're transsexual, people are always going to think you're homosexual, whether you are or not. Look at for Chaz Bono as one example, and compare him to Matt Kailey. Both are transmen or female-to-male trannsexuals. Bono is attracted to women; Kailey is attracted to men. Bono considers himself to be a straight man; Kailey considers himself to be a gay man -- or at least, he is, and has always been, attracted to men. But many people call Chaz Bono a lesbian, and people who see Kailey walking down the straight holding his boyfriend's hand will think of him as a gay man.

In other words, whether a particular transsexual perceives herself as gay or not, somebody is going to call her a homosexual, as is going to treat her the same way he treats other homosexuals. So pretty much all transsexuals are going to have to deal with homophobia on some level.

Actually, if you have the time, get a copy of Kailey's book "Just Add Hormones" and read the chapter titled "you say GLB, I say GLBT." It lays out the argument better than I can. 

But that's reason number six. whether or not you as a transsexual consider yourself to be gay, you're going to be subjected to homophobia, guaranteed.

... if people remain uneducated and confusion is promulgated by misinformation. See?


Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?
 
2012-11-11 09:33:11 PM  

dumbobruni: tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

It's a mistake to conflate gender and sexuality, and the general populace will never become educated if the groups are lumped together simply because they're both marginalized and have "something to do with sex." It promulgates ignorance and misinformation. To use a freighted expression, it's a shotgun wedding, at best. Short-term pragmatism, as I said.

The truth is, many transsexual people are quite conservative when it comes to sexuality and/or gender and the expressions thereof. Obviously I'm not referring to those who identify as "gender-fluid," "gender outlaws," or who have for whatever reasons a pathological inclination to challenge society's dualistic expectations and norms. Ironically, in many ways transsexual folks are much less threatening to the status quo (except for the big one, that so many people for whatever reasons (religious dogma, societal priming, who knows?) have a deeper visceral disapprobation to a seemingly more fundamental "deviation").

Okay, so what would you're answer be? They not be inclusive, either the LGB or T? Why? so many of the issues are right there and to say transsexual people are conservative have you ever heard of log cabin republicans? Also I'm thinking your talking about the way older set of trans gender. Ya, I've met a few of them over the years but well the case I named the marriage thing was actually on of them but I haven't spoken to her in years so hopefully she's change her mind.

"conservative when it comes to sexuality" does not equate to voting republican.

i'm going out on a limb here to suggest he means not letting it all hang out or content to fly under the radar.

/I also think it should be LGB and T, not LGBT.


Do you believe any transperson always gets to "fly under the radar"?
/ I just don't get it.
 
2012-11-11 09:40:33 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?



It's apples and oranges. Gay rights followed civil rights for black people. That by the way is a valid analogy. There are some black people who happen to also be gay (or vice-versa, if you want to look at it that way), but sexuality and gender have about as much in common as sexuality and race (or skin color, if you want to be a little more politically correct). But there's no reason our more information-rich and information-fluid society can't handle gay rights and transgender rights in parallel (with T understandably but unfortunately currently lagging behind due to a late start). They are fundamentally different phenomena, regardless of rynthetyn's recent mention of the brain structure studies.
 
2012-11-11 09:41:00 PM  

rynthetyn: ciberido: runcible spork: Further, you apparently think I'm looking at it from the LBG camp rather than the T aspect, which would have been plainly evident, even to you, had you bothered to look at any of my other comments in this thread.

In that case, let me lay point number six on you:

If you're transsexual, people are always going to think you're homosexual, whether you are or not. Look at for Chaz Bono as one example, and compare him to Matt Kailey. Both are transmen or female-to-male trannsexuals. Bono is attracted to women; Kailey is attracted to men. Bono considers himself to be a straight man; Kailey considers himself to be a gay man -- or at least, he is, and has always been, attracted to men. But many people call Chaz Bono a lesbian, and people who see Kailey walking down the straight holding his boyfriend's hand will think of him as a gay man.

In other words, whether a particular transsexual perceives herself as gay or not, somebody is going to call her a homosexual, as is going to treat her the same way he treats other homosexuals. So pretty much all transsexuals are going to have to deal with homophobia on some level.

Actually, if you have the time, get a copy of Kailey's book "Just Add Hormones" and read the chapter titled "you say GLB, I say GLBT." It lays out the argument better than I can. 

But that's reason number six. whether or not you as a transsexual consider yourself to be gay, you're going to be subjected to homophobia, guaranteed.

And on the flip side, I can't remember the source, but there is a fairly decent case to be made that given what is known about brain structure and how gay men tend to have brains that are more similar to straight women than to straight men and that gay women tend to have brains more similar to straight men than to straight women, that LGB really all belong on a broader T spectrum. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that classification, but the idea that anyone who is transgressing traditional gen ...


Truthfully I believe it's all related gay, trans, intersex are all related but oh well, I can't prove anything and each have there own sets of problems it's just there so simaler in so many ways.
 
2012-11-11 09:43:36 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: dumbobruni: tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: ciberido, rynthetyn, tinfoil-hat maggie, et al:

It's a mistake to conflate gender and sexuality, and the general populace will never become educated if the groups are lumped together simply because they're both marginalized and have "something to do with sex." It promulgates ignorance and misinformation. To use a freighted expression, it's a shotgun wedding, at best. Short-term pragmatism, as I said.

The truth is, many transsexual people are quite conservative when it comes to sexuality and/or gender and the expressions thereof. Obviously I'm not referring to those who identify as "gender-fluid," "gender outlaws," or who have for whatever reasons a pathological inclination to challenge society's dualistic expectations and norms. Ironically, in many ways transsexual folks are much less threatening to the status quo (except for the big one, that so many people for whatever reasons (religious dogma, societal priming, who knows?) have a deeper visceral disapprobation to a seemingly more fundamental "deviation").

Okay, so what would you're answer be? They not be inclusive, either the LGB or T? Why? so many of the issues are right there and to say transsexual people are conservative have you ever heard of log cabin republicans? Also I'm thinking your talking about the way older set of trans gender. Ya, I've met a few of them over the years but well the case I named the marriage thing was actually on of them but I haven't spoken to her in years so hopefully she's change her mind.

"conservative when it comes to sexuality" does not equate to voting republican.

i'm going out on a limb here to suggest he means not letting it all hang out or content to fly under the radar.

/I also think it should be LGB and T, not LGBT.

Do you believe any transperson always gets to "fly under the radar"?
/ I just don't get it.


No i don't. But they should be allowed to if they want to be, instead of demonized for being "conservative" as you tried to do above.
 
2012-11-11 09:52:42 PM  
A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.
 
2012-11-11 09:53:55 PM  

ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.


So what, is an infertile woman not truly a woman? An infertile man not truly a man?
 
2012-11-11 09:57:02 PM  

dumbobruni: No i don't. But they should be allowed to if they want to be, instead of demonized for being "conservative" as you tried to do above.


What? I didn't bring the word conservative into this, have I known conservative trans people in the past yes. granted in my experience they are few are far between and I don't really know how they feel right now as that was many years ago. Although I do and always have thought voting for a politician that was gonna deny your civil rights yet give you tax cuts was dumb. And I didn't say if they could fly under the radar they shouldn't, I said do you think they always have.

/Why do I feel I just got trolled?
 
2012-11-11 10:02:04 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?

It's apples and oranges. Gay rights followed civil rights for black people. That by the way is a valid analogy. There are some black people who happen to also be gay (or vice-versa, if you want to look at it that way), but sexuality and gender have about as much in common as sexuality and race (or skin color, if you want to be a little more politically correct). But there's no reason our more information-rich and information-fluid society can't handle gay rights and transgender rights in parallel (with T understandably but unfortunately currently lagging behind due to a late start). They are fundamentally different phenomena, regardless of rynthetyn's recent mention of the brain structure studies.


I really don't understand anything you're saying right now. I know it's probably my point of view that is keeping me from it but really how are trans right's lagging behind right now? I don't understand your argument.
 
2012-11-11 10:04:10 PM  

rynthetyn: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

So what, is an infertile woman not truly a woman? An infertile man not truly a man?


You'd be surprised at the mental gymnastics trans haters go through : /
 
2012-11-11 10:07:42 PM  

ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.


If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?
 
2012-11-11 10:10:28 PM  

DrPainMD: B) There is no "scientific consensus," as psychology isn't science. It's political correctness; those psychologists/psychiatrists who haven't conformed have, to a large degree, been run out of the profession. That's not scientific consensus.


You sound Scientologic.
 
2012-11-11 10:16:38 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I really don't understand anything you're saying right now. I know it's probably my point of view that is keeping me from it but really how are trans right's lagging behind right now? I don't understand your argument.



Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I think transgender rights are lagging behind gay rights because (a) they got off to a later start as far as public awareness is concerned, and (2) transsexuality remains less widely understood, really understood, by the general populace than homosexuality; continuing to be yoked to the LGB "community" will not advance such understanding.
 
2012-11-11 10:22:52 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?

It's apples and oranges. Gay rights followed civil rights for black people. That by the way is a valid analogy. There are some black people who happen to also be gay (or vice-versa, if you want to look at it that way), but sexuality and gender have about as much in common as sexuality and race (or skin color, if you want to be a little more politically correct). But there's no reason our more information-rich and information-fluid society can't handle gay rights and transgender rights in parallel (with T understandably but unfortunately currently lagging behind due to a late start). They are fundamentally different phenomena, regardless of rynthetyn's recent mention of the brain structure studies.


If you accept the idea that trans* is a spectrum and that brain structure studies suggest that LGB people fall on one end of that spectrum, then yes, trans issues very much are LGB issues.
 
2012-11-11 10:29:29 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: I really don't understand anything you're saying right now. I know it's probably my point of view that is keeping me from it but really how are trans right's lagging behind right now? I don't understand your argument.

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I think transgender rights are lagging behind gay rights because (a) they got off to a later start as far as public awareness is concerned, and (2) transsexuality remains less widely understood, really understood, by the general populace than homosexuality; continuing to be yoked to the LGB "community" will not advance such understanding.


I don't know what to say other than maybe you haven't been paying attention too stuff like this.

We've come along way and there is no benefit to dividing things up it really is an all or nothing thing and to says straight people aren't getting educated then how do all these early transitioning trans people come about?
 
2012-11-11 10:33:10 PM  

rynthetyn: runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?

It's apples and oranges. Gay rights followed civil rights for black people. That by the way is a valid analogy. There are some black people who happen to also be gay (or vice-versa, if you want to look at it that way), but sexuality and gender have about as much in common as sexuality and race (or skin color, if you want to be a little more politically correct). But there's no reason our more information-rich and information-fluid society can't handle gay rights and transgender rights in parallel (with T understandably but unfortunately currently lagging behind due to a late start). They are fundamentally different phenomena, regardless of rynthetyn's recent mention of the brain structure studies.

If you accept the idea that trans* is a spectrum and that brain structure studies suggest that LGB people fall on one end of that spectrum, then yes, trans issues very much are LGB issues.



But I don't accept that, not at this point anyway. Just because there may be some superficial structural similarities in some brain studies, I don't feel it's unequivocal enough to go ahead and bundle everything together. Besides, the fact remains that gender and sexuality are fundamentally different aspects (regardless of the possible presence of shared causality) and are expressed in fundamentally different ways, and are furthermore interpreted by society in fundamentally different ways. It's useless to regress to anatomical semantics when the issue is societal integration of distinct epiphenomena.
 
2012-11-11 10:35:57 PM  

rynthetyn: If you accept the idea that trans* is a spectrum and that brain structure studies suggest that LGB people fall on one end of that spectrum, then yes, trans issues very much are LGB issues.


I'm trying to remember the movie where the Log cabin republican types didn't want drag queens in the pride march , actually I think there may be a few of them but really it's one of those things where since it's similar enough issues well....
 
2012-11-11 10:42:02 PM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: Well what good does it do to have it all as separate issues?

It's apples and oranges. Gay rights followed civil rights for black people. That by the way is a valid analogy. There are some black people who happen to also be gay (or vice-versa, if you want to look at it that way), but sexuality and gender have about as much in common as sexuality and race (or skin color, if you want to be a little more politically correct). But there's no reason our more information-rich and information-fluid society can't handle gay rights and transgender rights in parallel (with T understandably but unfortunately currently lagging behind due to a late start). They are fundamentally different phenomena, regardless of rynthetyn's recent mention of the brain structure studies.

If you accept the idea that trans* is a spectrum and that brain structure studies suggest that LGB people fall on one end of that spectrum, then yes, trans issues very much are LGB issues.

But I don't accept that, not at this point anyway. Just because there may be some superficial structural similarities in some brain studies, I don't feel it's unequivocal enough to go ahead and bundle everything together. Besides, the fact remains that gender and sexuality are fundamentally different aspects (regardless of the possible presence of shared causality) and are expressed in fundamentally different ways, and are furthermore interpreted by society in fundamentally different ways. It's useless to regress to anatomical semantics when the issue is societal integration of distinct epiphenomena.


You still haven't said what you're solution is, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, the fact remains that each group can be bullied, harassed, and killed right now remains as well as denied employment and housing. I really don't understand your argument.
 
2012-11-11 10:42:39 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I don't know what to say other than maybe you haven't been paying attention too stuff like this.

We've come along way and there is no benefit to dividing things up it really is an all or nothing thing and to says straight people aren't getting educated then how do all these early transitioning trans people come about?



I follow the news, was aware of that appointment and other stories. I'm not looking to divide things up unnecessarily, Coming from an analytic and science background, I'm interested in promoting understanding and acceptance of facts. Muddying the issue up and confusing people for convenience's sake is anathema to me. There's no benefit to that, in my opinion. Indeed, we've come a long way, but there's no need to continue oversimplifying such issues.

If there were more and clearer understanding about transsexuality, it would be even easier for people to transition earlier, which is so much better.
 
2012-11-11 10:50:35 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: You still haven't said what you're solution is, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, the fact remains that each group can be bullied, harassed, and killed right now remains as well as denied employment and housing. I really don't understand your argument.


My point is that there are many minority or "fringe" groups which have been historically and are currently persecuted as a result of bigotry, ignorance, hate, and so forth. There is no reason to create an unnatural alliance of those who are homosexual and those who are transsexual. It promotes the very ignorance it seeks to overcome. I repeat, just because they are both marginalized because they appear to be related ("something to do with sex") they shouldn't be lazily combined.

tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm trying to remember the movie where the Log cabin republican types didn't want drag queens in the pride march , actually I think there may be a few of them but really it's one of those things where since it's similar enough issues well....



I remember not many years ago there was severe discrimination (and eviction?) against transsexual women who tried to attend the Lilith Fair concerts. Don't know if that sort of thing still goes on.
 
2012-11-11 10:58:14 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: I don't know what to say other than maybe you haven't been paying attention too stuff like this.

We've come along way and there is no benefit to dividing things up it really is an all or nothing thing and to says straight people aren't getting educated then how do all these early transitioning trans people come about?

I follow the news, was aware of that appointment and other stories. I'm not looking to divide things up unnecessarily, Coming from an analytic and science background, I'm interested in promoting understanding and acceptance of facts. Muddying the issue up and confusing people for convenience's sake is anathema to me. There's no benefit to that, in my opinion. Indeed, we've come a long way, but there's no need to continue oversimplifying such issues.

If there were more and clearer understanding about transsexuality, it would be even easier for people to transition earlier, which is so much better.


I guess that's where we disagree I don't see it as muddying the issues, and I don't think anyone is trying to confuse anyone the process of coming out trans and coming out gay are very different at least as far as what happens next but everyone involved with the LGBT I think is wanting a safe society in witch to make that decision and for the people who have and haven't decided yet to be safe and free of persecution.
 
2012-11-11 11:00:42 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: You still haven't said what you're solution is, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, the fact remains that each group can be bullied, harassed, and killed right now remains as well as denied employment and housing. I really don't understand your argument.

My point is that there are many minority or "fringe" groups which have been historically and are currently persecuted as a result of bigotry, ignorance, hate, and so forth. There is no reason to create an unnatural alliance of those who are homosexual and those who are transsexual. It promotes the very ignorance it seeks to overcome. I repeat, just because they are both marginalized because they appear to be related ("something to do with sex") they shouldn't be lazily combined.


It's not an "unnatural alliance" though. LGB and T people have been working together since the very beginning of the modern gay rights movement. It would be immoral to ditch the T from LGB just at the point where we're on the verge of equality, not when they've fought for the same things with us for so long.

Whether you want to admit it or not, gender and sexuality ARE intertwined in our culture, and anyone who does not conform to gender roles is afforded outsider status because of it. LGB people are outsiders because we don't conform to the traditional roles, T people are outsiders for the same reason. If you leave trans people behind, you're going to end up leaving butch lesbians and effeminate gay men behind too, because just like trans people, they aren't accepted largely due to their gender presentation.
 
2012-11-11 11:12:58 PM  

rynthetyn: It's not an "unnatural alliance" though. LGB and T people have been working together since the very beginning of the modern gay rights movement. It would be immoral to ditch the T from LGB just at the point where we're on the verge of equality, not when they've fought for the same things with us for so long.

Whether you want to admit it or not, gender and sexuality ARE intertwined in our culture, and anyone who does not conform to gender roles is afforded outsider status because of it. LGB people are outsiders because we don't conform to the traditional roles, T people are outsiders for the same reason.



It was a marriage of convenience, and it's high time people understand and appreciate what transsexuality is all about, independent of homosexuality. Society can and does change.

If you leave trans people behind, you're going to end up leaving butch lesbians and effeminate gay men behind too, because just like trans people, they aren't accepted largely due to their gender presentation.

I disagree completely with that prognostication and its underlying notion. Such people are still part of the gay community, or spectrum if you want to call it that. And please keep in mind I'm no absolutist, never-the-twain-shall meet Cassandra. There are of course people who are both transgender and homo- or bisexual (as has been mentioned earlier), and there are some times when it makes sense for those who are [LGB] and those who are [T] to come together to fight or lobby for common cause. But no need to callously yoke them together.
 
2012-11-11 11:18:15 PM  

rynthetyn: If you leave trans people behind, you're going to end up leaving butch lesbians and effeminate gay men behind too, because just like trans people, they aren't accepted largely due to their gender presentation.



And who said anything about "leaving trans people behind" anyway? If transsexual people are perpetually in the hidden shadows of the "LGBT community" there will never be meaningful advancement.
 
2012-11-11 11:23:52 PM  

runcible spork: And who said anything about "leaving trans people behind" anyway? If transsexual people are perpetually in the hidden shadows of the "LGBT community" there will never be meaningful advancement.


Paul Ryan and Barney Frank, amongst others, when discussing ENDA. I could go on, but I have a more important post to make in a few. Not trying to pick a fight here, at all, but the queer community doesnt like us trans folk, in general.
 
2012-11-11 11:25:55 PM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: You still haven't said what you're solution is, and I still don't understand where you're coming from, the fact remains that each group can be bullied, harassed, and killed right now remains as well as denied employment and housing. I really don't understand your argument.

My point is that there are many minority or "fringe" groups which have been historically and are currently persecuted as a result of bigotry, ignorance, hate, and so forth. There is no reason to create an unnatural alliance of those who are homosexual and those who are transsexual. It promotes the very ignorance it seeks to overcome. I repeat, just because they are both marginalized because they appear to be related ("something to do with sex") they shouldn't be lazily combined.

tinfoil-hat maggie: I'm trying to remember the movie where the Log cabin republican types didn't want drag queens in the pride march , actually I think there may be a few of them but really it's one of those things where since it's similar enough issues well....

I remember not many years ago there was severe discrimination (and eviction?) against transsexual women who tried to attend the Lilith Fair concerts. Don't know if that sort of thing still goes on.


To say it is an unnatural alliance is just, wow. I'm sorry but it is for the best and more and more people are learning acceptance, why can't you?
/ Yea, yea women born women only Bornstien talked about that, maybe things haven't changed but really going it alone is not the answer. I don't see why you can't get that granted I don't know your situation but you seem angry right now. I've had you Favorited for awhile and I'm sorta surprised.
 
2012-11-11 11:31:56 PM  

rynthetyn: And on the flip side, I can't remember the source, but there is a fairly decent case to be made that given what is known about brain structure and how gay men tend to have brains that are more similar to straight women than to straight men and that gay women tend to have brains more similar to straight men than to straight women, that LGB really all belong on a broader T spectrum. I'm not sure I necessarily agree with that classification, but the idea that anyone who is transgressing traditional gender expectations is in a similar boat is worth considering.



Thinking about this some more. Without researching it, I seem to recall that those studies finding similarities between gay men and straight women, and gay women and straight men, had more to do with fMRI (or similar) activity to stimuli rather than actual brain structure. In contrast, there have been studies finding structural similarities of transsexual brains to those of their ...uhm... nonsomatic analogues? Gah. Translation: that transsexual women's brains are physically similar to those of cisgender women, and ditto for transsexual men and cisgender men.
 
2012-11-11 11:34:42 PM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: If you leave trans people behind, you're going to end up leaving butch lesbians and effeminate gay men behind too, because just like trans people, they aren't accepted largely due to their gender presentation.

And who said anything about "leaving trans people behind" anyway? If transsexual people are perpetually in the hidden shadows of the "LGBT community" there will never be meaningful advancement.


What the hell do you mean by this? Straight up. Tell me, say it. You really think more people aren't more educated about trans issues than 10 yr's ago? You admit you knew Obama made a transgender appointment, yet no advancement? What's really going on here?
 
2012-11-11 11:36:43 PM  

alienated: runcible spork: And who said anything about "leaving trans people behind" anyway? If transsexual people are perpetually in the hidden shadows of the "LGBT community" there will never be meaningful advancement.

Paul Ryan and Barney Frank, amongst others, when discussing ENDA. I could go on, but I have a more important post to make in a few. Not trying to pick a fight here, at all, but the queer community doesnt like us trans folk, in general.


It is what we make it.
 
2012-11-11 11:40:35 PM  

alienated: Paul Ryan and Barney Frank, amongst others, when discussing ENDA. I could go on, but I have a more important post to make in a few. Not trying to pick a fight here, at all, but the queer community doesnt like us trans folk, in general.



Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

tinfoil-hat maggie: To say it is an unnatural alliance is just, wow. I'm sorry but it is for the best and more and more people are learning acceptance, why can't you?
/ Yea, yea women born women only Bornstien talked about that, maybe things haven't changed but really going it alone is not the answer. I don't see why you can't get that granted I don't know your situation but you seem angry right now. I've had you Favorited for awhile and I'm sorta surprised.



I've long had you Favorited too. I'm not angry, but honestly feel very strongly about this "LBGT" grouping. I want more people to have clarity. Not trying be divisive for the sake of being divisive. What do you think I'm not accepting of, Maggie? I tend to express my opinions without stating my situation, and have a habit of frequently speaking vaguely, so I realize my messages may be muddled. (Ironic, considering my claims of desire to espouse understanding and clarity.)
 
2012-11-11 11:46:23 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: What the hell do you mean by this? Straight up. Tell me, say it. You really think more people aren't more educated about trans issues than 10 yr's ago? You admit you knew Obama made a transgender appointment, yet no advancement? What's really going on here?



No denying it, progress in understanding transsexuality is occurring, but far too slowly because it's lumped in with the queer community (which is a much more cohesive, though not absolutely so, community than the transgender community, if there is such a thing*). It's no longer necessary for transsexuality to be cloaked in the shadows, riding under the coattails of the LGB club.

*Eminently arguable. Not here, not now, though.
 
2012-11-11 11:46:45 PM  

ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.


So an infertile man isn't a man? And an infertile woman isn't a woman? My mother had a hysterectomy. She's not a woman anymore?
 
2012-11-11 11:47:59 PM  

Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.


This might be long.
Hey there, I am late to reply to this as I took a good while to try and come up with something that would not sound odd, or creepy.
So, here goes. I dont know you, at all, but I am pretty sure it was mentioned for the Oceanside Fark party that you are Trans, and I thought ' wow, more than one of my kind at a fark party' ? However, I could not get a replacement so I had to skip it.
I am also mtf, which i am sure has shocked many fark Modmins and others that now that I came out after a while- I have met over the years at meet ups / parties/ sports by brooks impromtu things, as I only accepted what I knew at 4 when I hit 40. There is no way even in a really dark room that I can pass- im 5 11 and I am skinny but I have a pooch belly. I pluck eyebrows and shave- just for me. I am mostly in guy mode / androgen mode as I have, well, after this long a life- mostly boy clothes- plus- makeup on a daily basis is kinda of a pita.
Do I feel bad because of the mistake that was made at the human factory ? Yes.
Do I think of just ending it ? Yes.
But, then who would feed gordie or mammaberry ? (cats) . Who would take madhonib to her physical therapy ? IDK if you are into the bar scene at all- I mostly am not, but, at the Oxwood, in the Valley of San Fernando, you can meet plenty of non pass trans folks who just do not give a damn about being non pass/ pass , and many of them are good people.
I would have emailed this but, well- you have a private email.
I am just saying to please do not just roll over / give up.
Take that as you wish, Lass. 
And please- be well.
 
2012-11-11 11:52:21 PM  

runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?


I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.
 
2012-11-11 11:57:24 PM  

runcible spork: 've long had you Favorited too. I'm not angry, but honestly feel very strongly about this "LBGT" grouping. I want more people to have clarity. Not trying be divisive for the sake of being divisive. What do you think I'm not accepting of, Maggie? I tend to express my opinions without stating my situation, and have a habit of frequently speaking vaguely, so I realize my messages may be muddled. (Ironic, considering my claims of desire to espouse understanding and clarity.)


Well, truth be told none of your reasons hold up, the facts are more people are educated about trans issues, and many of those issues coincided with the LGB and yea drop the T and then drop the B because that one's supposed to be a choice right? Well we don't chose who we fall in love with, it just happens. And you haven't given any evidence that trans people would be better of going it alone and have giving no consideration to the trans people that cannot or won't fully transition.

Otherwise, what I'm saying is not knowing your status or position in life as far as gender goes, I think you're really wrong and if you were trans it would be self defeating.
 
2012-11-12 12:10:22 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: What the hell do you mean by this? Straight up. Tell me, say it. You really think more people aren't more educated about trans issues than 10 yr's ago? You admit you knew Obama made a transgender appointment, yet no advancement? What's really going on here?

No denying it, progress in understanding transsexuality is occurring, but far too slowly because it's lumped in with the queer community (which is a much more cohesive, though not absolutely so, community than the transgender community, if there is such a thing*). It's no longer necessary for transsexuality to be cloaked in the shadows, riding under the coattails of the LGB club.

*Eminently arguable. Not here, not now, though.


My skin
Sorry I just think you're wrong.
EiP if you ever wanna talk about it.
 
2012-11-12 12:13:50 AM  

alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.


Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.
 
2012-11-12 12:15:34 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Well, truth be told none of your reasons hold up, the facts are more people are educated about trans issues, and many of those issues coincided with the LGB and yea drop the T and then drop the B because that one's supposed to be a choice right? Well we don't chose who we fall in love with, it just happens.



What I'm saying is that although more people are now educated about TG/TS issues, it's slow going and it could be happening faster and in a less encumbered context. Historically those issues may have, or may have at least appeared to have "coincided with [those of] the LGB" group, but that's no longer necessary.

I see no reason to drop the B from there; each of those letters represents a sexuality that is not 100% heterosexual (but really, how many people are 100% heterosexual?), so what if it may be only some of the time for those who identify as bisexual? Anybody should be allowed to love and be with whomever they want, as long as it's consensual.

And you haven't given any evidence that trans people would be better of going it alone and have giving no consideration to the trans people that cannot or won't fully transition.

How can I prove something that hasn't be allowed to happen? And further, there's no reason to exclude those who cannot or will not; that's why I refer to transgenderism as well as transsexualism. Also, with greater acceptance and understanding, it's more likely that transsexual people will have insurance coverage for transition, and will be able to transition earlier (read: more definitive successes).

Otherwise, what I'm saying is not knowing your status or position in life as far as gender goes, I think you're really wrong and if you were trans it would be self defeating. 

I don't follow this argument. Also, getting sleepy.
 
2012-11-12 12:24:46 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.



I've witnessed hostility from gay people against transgender people. Many times.

As for the "fluid" poseurs/provocateurs, I mean the people who say, "today (or at this moment) I feel female, so I'm going to use the ladies' room
in this here public place," regardless as to how they were presenting themselves. It's farcical. This was an issue when California was considering some legislative measure about public restrooms (was it to make them all unisex? can't recall). I mean the people who aren't really transgender but just get a kick out of challenging society's gender expectations, like real-life trolls. They generate much more reactive animosity rather than foster understanding and acceptance. Unfortunately, society is not yet at the point where it's ready to be truly and fully gender-blind. It's a nice dream, but we aren't even close.
 
2012-11-12 12:30:49 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.


At a guess, "fluid" someone like me who chooses neither gender. Poseurs, I would have to take to mean those who aren't actually making a choice about gender, but are just doing it for the performance: drama queens. See, and I feel like I have to even clarify drama queen to mean the high-school style, not the drag queen drama, though I hear that can get pretty catty too.

But frankly, those most people call poseurs and provocateurs are gender-queer and fall in the transgender banner. It's a bit telling to exclude them just because they are viewed as poseurs and fakes.
 
2012-11-12 12:31:19 AM  

runcible spork: What I'm saying is that although more people are now educated about TG/TS issues, it's slow going and it could be happening faster and in a less encumbered context. Historically those issues may have, or may have at least appeared to have "coincided with [those of] the LGB" group, but that's no longer necessary.


Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

Anyway good luck with that.
 
2012-11-12 12:31:34 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.

I've witnessed hostility from gay people against transgender people. Many times.

As for the "fluid" poseurs/provocateurs, I mean the people who say, "today (or at this moment) I feel female, so I'm going to use the ladies' room
in this here public place," regardless as to how they were presenting themselves. It's farcical. This was an issue when California was considering some legislative measure about public restrooms (was it to make them all unisex? can't recall). I mean the people who aren't really transgender but just get a kick out of challenging society's gender expectations, like real-life trolls. They generate much more reactive animosity rather than foster understanding and acceptance. Unfortunately, society is not yet at the point where it's ready to be truly and fully gender-blind. It's a nice dream, but we aren't even close.


Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.
 
2012-11-12 12:34:43 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

Very true, and now I have to wonder what a fluid poseur is.

I've witnessed hostility from gay people against transgender people. Many times.

As for the "fluid" poseurs/provocateurs, I mean the people who say, "today (or at this moment) I feel female, so I'm going to use the ladies' room
in this here public place," regardless as to how they were presenting themselves. It's farcical. This was an issue when California was considering some legislative measure about public restrooms (was it to make them all unisex? can't recall). I mean the people who aren't really transgender but just get a kick out of challenging society's gender expectations, like real-life trolls. They generate much more reactive animosity rather than foster understanding and acceptance. Unfortunately, society is not yet at the point where it's ready to be truly and fully gender-blind. It's a nice dream, but we aren't even close.


As an intersex individual who is just as bi-gendered as I am bi-sexual, allow me a vibrant "screw you!"

How farcical is it for a man who thinks he's a woman to use a woman's bathroom. Oh, if society ever gets to that point where we are so gender-blind . . .

Yes, there are real life trolls out there. But you've crossed the line from talking about just one or two trolls to implying that a whole group of people are trolls just because you don't agree with them. Take a look at the irony there, and get back to me.
 
2012-11-12 12:36:02 AM  

rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.



I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.
 
2012-11-12 12:39:20 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.


No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.
 
2012-11-12 12:45:04 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?



I'm not arguing that understanding isn't growing, just that it's happening too slowly. And yes, I do believe it's easier for people to grasp the concept of homosexuality than transsexuality, and I do believe that gay rights are moving faster than recognition and acceptance of those who are transgender. And that at this point, the LGB faction is eclipsing and obscuring them from public understanding.

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

More countries than just those two. Yet here in the US, it's still a huge problem (although there are a growing number of companies who have been proactive (damn I hate that word) and have specifically allowed insurance coverage for hormone therapy and SRS. As we all know, our insurance system, despite the gains of the Affordable Care Act, is still a huge mess. It needs to be uncoupled from employers (a relic from the post-WWII boom) and single-payer needs to be implemented. To start.


Anyway good luck with that.

?

/ EiP too.
 
2012-11-12 12:46:10 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.


I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.
 
2012-11-12 12:47:05 AM  

rynthetyn: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.



If there were unisex bathrooms everywhere, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat? It's stupid.
 
2012-11-12 12:52:04 AM  

ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.



I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?
 
2012-11-12 12:52:48 AM  

runcible spork: rynthetyn: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

No, that's not what you did and you know it. You attacked "provocateurs" who insist on using the women's restroom even without presenting as female.

If there were unisex bathrooms everywhere, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat? It's stupid.


Seriously?

"If men could dress as women, or if it was a societal non-issue, there would be no problem. What's the point of rocking the boat just for the sake of rocking the boat?"


I won't deny anyone their right to blend in, and hide. If someone doesn't want to out what gender they are, fine. But those of us who do choose to step out of line with society are what makes society listen. Were you not arguing that T needs to stop hiding behind LG&B. But when someone else stops hiding in a way you don't like, they are just 'goofy' and worse . . .

are we being trolled, here?
 
2012-11-12 12:55:54 AM  

runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?


It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.
 
2012-11-12 12:59:57 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?

It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.



I suspect that underneath it all, we're on the same side of this argument. Really. Plus, it's a great metaphor for the subject.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.

Oh, do not get me started on the blatant and intense misogyny of drag queens.

And now I'm trundling off to bed.
 
2012-11-12 01:09:17 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.


I know right, I think I know what this is but I can't say for sure.
 
2012-11-12 01:20:39 AM  

metal_gear: Silly Jesus: This is an abomination against God.

Next you'll blame them for Hurricane Sandy, right? Why don't you and God go help some of those unfortunate people and leave these two the fark alone?


Silly Jesus is the most successful humor troll I have ever seen on Fark. I don't even think this is just troll, he's giving me Tom, Bert, and William Huggins. I like it!
 
2012-11-12 01:24:27 AM  

ykarie: runcible spork: ykarie: I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I meant that it was goofy to make an issue out of it when it accomplishes nothing and is provocative for no reason or rationale. The California brouhaha. Have I mentioned that I'm growing sleepy?

It is late, and I won't put you in a bright orange highlight for anything said this late. But it does accomplish something; attention. Yeah, maybe one act is attention-whoring. But it isn't all that way, and it's a way for T folks who aren't either MtF or FtM to step out of the shadow and show that gender is an issue even today.

Provocative? Sure, but so are drag queens. So was Stonewall.


Yea and throwing homosexuals and trans people into mental institutions was also sorta provocative, and they didn't care which was which.
/And thanks Marsha P. Johnson for throwing that first brick.
 
2012-11-12 01:26:03 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ykarie: runcible spork: rynthetyn: Really? You're going to go to the "men using women's restrooms" argument? That's the line of attack that anti-gay activists use against every single LGBT politician and every single non-discrimination ordinance. You should really know better than to resort to that.

I'm not "resorting" to it. I'm pointing out how goofy it is, and expressing that in general we'd be better off if no one gave a fark which bathroom someone uses.

I'm trying to re-read what you said, and take it in a way that was not an attack on supposed 'poseurs and provocateurs' but I can't do it. Maybe it sounded different in your head; and I do believe, reading the rest of the discussion, that you believe we would be better off if no one gave a fark about which bathroom someone uses. But you are doing it again in the same statement where you call it 'goofy' to use a bathroom that don't match your clothing.

I know right, I think I know what this is but I can't say for sure.


I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

So I'll count it as runcible spork being tired, and let it go. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. And the argument that transgender individuals need to get society to see that gender and sexuality are separate is an issue I think I agree with runcible spork on. I disagree that LGBT needs to be broken into LGB and T someplace else, but turning it from a 1 dimensional Kensey sexuality scale to a 2D grid would be a start.
 
2012-11-12 01:26:18 AM  

alienated: Myria: No, it's an issue with the current limit of medical technology. I don't think that doctors can do anything to help me look female, since my body type is so strongly masculine. I can afford surgeries, but they wouldn't do any good. I'm better off dead.

This might be long.
Hey there, I am late to reply to this as I took a good while to try and come up with something that would not sound odd, or creepy.
So, here goes. I dont know you, at all, but I am pretty sure it was mentioned for the Oceanside Fark party that you are Trans, and I thought ' wow, more than one of my kind at a fark party' ? However, I could not get a replacement so I had to skip it.
I am also mtf, which i am sure has shocked many fark Modmins and others that now that I came out after a while- I have met over the years at meet ups / parties/ sports by brooks impromtu things, as I only accepted what I knew at 4 when I hit 40. There is no way even in a really dark room that I can pass- im 5 11 and I am skinny but I have a pooch belly. I pluck eyebrows and shave- just for me. I am mostly in guy mode / androgen mode as I have, well, after this long a life- mostly boy clothes- plus- makeup on a daily basis is kinda of a pita.
Do I feel bad because of the mistake that was made at the human factory ? Yes.
Do I think of just ending it ? Yes.
But, then who would feed gordie or mammaberry ? (cats) . Who would take madhonib to her physical therapy ? IDK if you are into the bar scene at all- I mostly am not, but, at the Oxwood, in the Valley of San Fernando, you can meet plenty of non pass trans folks who just do not give a damn about being non pass/ pass , and many of them are good people.
I would have emailed this but, well- you have a private email.
I am just saying to please do not just roll over / give up.
Take that as you wish, Lass. 
And please- be well.


Well, you just made a straight girl with no gender or sexuality issues but a boatload of other ones fall madly in love with you at Boobies. Well done! :)
Xoxo I hope Myria hears you.
 
2012-11-12 01:29:08 AM  

alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.


When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.
 
2012-11-12 01:33:31 AM  

ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy.

Just shouldn't kid themselves.


Rimshot! Paragon's here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitress, who is most assuredly a transsexual. And a really farking hot one!

"Life's not worth a damn till you can shout OUT LOUD I am what I am!"
 
2012-11-12 01:41:11 AM  

ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.


Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )
 
2012-11-12 01:45:06 AM  

ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.


Oh, the joys of being a stealth gamer. The stories I could tell about things said when straight-cisgendered folks thought no one was listening.

But, on the other side, my current guild in EQ (yes, kickin old skool) went on a descriptive rant one evening because a new guy mentioned a love of 'tranny porn' (sex was being discussed, so the porn part wasn't a problem). I never knew how many allies I had there until this poor newb learned the difference between transgender, transsexual, and girls with strap-ons who like money. I barely had to raise an objection to the word before everyone else leapt to, and even though he tried the "Oh, are you trans, I didn't mean it that way if you are" line, that only made things worse for him. I am not sure if the leader removed him for that comment, or if he left after the tongue lashing he received. And those guild mates never asked me about my gender, even since.

/knew they were friends before that, they became family that day.
 
2012-11-12 01:47:45 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )


maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.
 
2012-11-12 01:54:39 AM  

ykarie: tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )

maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.


Well, I didn't really think otherwise, but it's just who doesn't like oral, well, if it's done right.
 
2012-11-12 01:59:48 AM  

ykarie: tinfoil-hat maggie: ciberido: alienated: runcible spork: Do trans folk (excluding the "fluid" poseurs and provacateurs) like the queer community?

I am only one person, so- I dont know. I tend to have a better time in queer bars when I go to a bar vs a straight one- most gays and lesbians are nice, based on my experiences.

When I play MMORPGs such as World of Warcraft I look for a lbgt-positive guild to join. Not so much because I feel a need to "be amongst my own kind" as just to avoid homophobia and misogyny. There's a lot less of that macho crap when you hang around fellow lgbtq folks.

And you learn things. Like, I never knew how much men liked fellatio until I started hanging out with gay guys a lot.  Really opened my eyes.

Heh, you didn't know that till then? Wow, I can't imagine : )

maybe ciberido is a she, and uninterested in the masculine-persuasion.


ciberido has already mentioned in this very thread that she is bisexual.  But there's a difference between knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.

I just find it funny that almost every time you hear homophobes pontificate about gay men they go on and on and on about anal sex, but when I actually listen to gay men talk about their sex lives, I hear so much more about fellatio. It really makes me wonder why homophobes are so fabulously obsessed with anal sex.
 
2012-11-12 02:02:16 AM  

queenalice: Well, you just made a straight girl with no gender or sexuality issues but a boatload of other ones fall madly in love with you at Boobies. Well done! :)
Xoxo I hope Myria hears you.


Um, ty, and will ask you to fwd positive things.In many ways , i hate trans threads in some ways. In another way- it is a way for me to help someone. as flawed as i am .
All of that said- I know for a fact that you have a huge heart, and brain, which is nice.
And I wish you Merry Holidays, to steal from and old friend.
 
2012-11-12 02:21:44 AM  

ciberido: ciberido has already mentioned in this very thread that she is bisexual.  But there's a difference between knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.

I just find it funny that almost every time you hear homophobes pontificate about gay men they go on and on and on about anal sex, but when I actually listen to gay men talk about their sex lives, I hear so much more about fellatio. It really makes me wonder why homophobes are so fabulously obsessed with anal sex.


You expect me to read the whole thread? Next you'll be wanting me to read the articles too, for context or some reason. ;-)

Okay, it's late enough, I'll be back in the morning if the trolls haven't shown up before I wake. And if they have, i'll be back with an orange highlighter to make sure I don't argue with them twice.
 
2012-11-12 04:28:56 AM  

runcible spork: tinfoil-hat maggie: I really don't understand anything you're saying right now. I know it's probably my point of view that is keeping me from it but really how are trans right's lagging behind right now? I don't understand your argument.

Sorry, I don't mean to be confusing. Maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. I think transgender rights are lagging behind gay rights because (a) they got off to a later start as far as public awareness is concerned, and (2) transsexuality remains less widely understood, really understood, by the general populace than homosexuality; continuing to be yoked to the LGB "community" will not advance such understanding.


ok, I get it.... you're supporting both the advancement of trans rights as well as gay rights, and just happen to think that since they are such different phenomena, they ought to be treated separately, and promoted in parallel. Fair enough.

However, there are good reasons why LGB is lumped in with T, and it's because it's easier to convince people of a basic concept rather than a particular group. The basic concept is : "However consenting adults want to live their lives, as long as their not hurting anyone, shouldn't be a basis for discrimination."

This basic idea resonates with people, and disagreeing with it makes anyone uneasy, even the fundies, and it has gained enough traction among the libertarians to make it hard for anyone on the political right to go against this. This is what unites the LGBT community into one thing, and anytime smaller groups are united into one larger group they are more effective in bringing about social change.

Again, your heart is in the right place, so please disregard my former sarcasm, but strategically, I still don't see a good reason to break up the LGBT community into smaller parts -it's small enough already.
 
2012-11-12 05:03:18 AM  
ugh... can't believe I just did that:

cassanovascotian: "However consenting adults want to live their lives, as long as they're not hurting anyone, shouldn't be a basis for discrimination."

 
2012-11-12 05:31:05 AM  

ciberido: knowing that guys like fellatio and knowing JUST HOW MUCH guys like fellatio.


No kidding ?
 
2012-11-12 06:40:37 AM  
True consensual love is so damn hard to come by in this world. Who am I to begrudge what physical form genuine emotional love takes? Sincere best to 'em.
 
2012-11-12 06:52:52 AM  
We need more (not less) love in this world.
 
2012-11-12 07:18:51 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: runcible spork: What I'm saying is that although more people are now educated about TG/TS issues, it's slow going and it could be happening faster and in a less encumbered context. Historically those issues may have, or may have at least appeared to have "coincided with [those of] the LGB" group, but that's no longer necessary.

Wow, just wrong, there are a lot of movies out there now that shed a positive light on trans-people instead of having them mass murderers that thanks to gay people and of course it's been slow do you really believe gay rights is moving any faster?



Just a quickie before I'm out the door this morning. This occurred to me in the shower. As demonstration of how transsexuality lags behind gay rights in the public sphere, let's use an example close to hand as evidence. Here at Fark, (a) there are far less threads about homosexual people than about trans people. This is because the former is not as controversial to most nowadays, while transgender issues are still perceived as alien and unrelatable by many more Farkers. (b) there his far more vitriol and misunderstanding demonstrated in the trans threads than in the (less common) gay/lesbian threads.

I don't don't know, like I've said all along I don't understand your point and you still haven't made it clear. Although what you have made clear is that you're an idiot both Great Briton and Canada cover TS medical under their heath plans and well I'm not sure about you now as well ....

I'm hurt that you called me an idiot. Didn't say it last night.

Anyway good luck with that.

Still have no idea what you meant by that.
 
2012-11-12 07:38:36 AM  

runcible spork: Here at Fark, (a) there are far less threads about homosexual people than about trans people. This is because the former is not as controversial to most nowadays, while transgender issues are still perceived as alien and unrelatable by many more Farkers. (b) there his far more vitriol and misunderstanding demonstrated in the trans threads than in the (less common) gay/lesbian threads..


I don't think you're correct on the amount of threads on said topics (did you miss the whole chick-fil-a thing? Preist and preachers denouncing homosexuality?) but you are correct about there being there more "vitriol and misunderstanding", but separating trans issues from the LGB issues wont change that.

I'm hurt that you called me an idiot. Didn't say it last night.

I apologize I shouldn't have done that, again sorry.

Still have no idea what you meant by that.

I mean good luck with the position that it is better of to make it a separate issue than being included with the LGB, I think it's the wrong position to take.
 
2012-11-12 07:49:15 AM  
ykarie: I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

It wasn't a personal incident (not mine, anyway), it was a news story. Did a quick search just now and was surprised to see that it was from nearly eight years ago (!). "A Quest for a Restroom That's Neither Men's Room Nor Women's Room" (NYTimes, 4 Mar 2005). While I agreed with the overall sentiment of the article and sympathized with most of the people and situations described, it was the one or two declarations of gender fluidity and the sense of "because I feel so right now and so I'm going to just want I want to do no matter how provocative that is" that irked me. Re-reading the article now, I see that at the timeI was oversensitive (and maybe even a bit hallucinatory) in that interpretation, and have maintained that impression over the years.

I agree, ykarie, it's a good thing when "outside" people show solidarity for causes. Practically unequivocally (although sometimes Jon Stewart is spot-on when he intones, "You're not helping..."). But my sense in reading the article was that until such gender-neutral bathrooms were established, people should work within the bounds of society. If you happen to be appearing male and there are only separate men's and women's facilities available, the path of least resistance is to use the men's room. It's a small sacrifice compared to the host of other struggles. I reiterate, this isn't to suggest that people shouldn't take action to inform and educate and work to change society (including creating gender-neutral/unisex restrooms), but that they should pick the wheres and hows of their battles judiciously.

So I'll count it as runcible spork being tired, and let it go. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. I say stuff that sounds one way out of context but means something different in my head (where the context gets lost) all the time. And the argument that transgender individuals need to get society to see that gender and sexuality are separate is an issue I think I agree with runcible spork on. I disagree that LGBT needs to be broken into LGB and T someplace else, but turning it from a 1 dimensional Kensey sexuality scale to a 2D grid would be a start.

Thanks for your understanding and tolerance. I'll work on mine too.
 
2012-11-12 07:55:59 AM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I mean good luck with the position that it is better of to make it a separate issue than being included with the LGB, I think it's the wrong position to take.



Thanks for the reply and apology. We both seem to be intractable on the LGB/T cohesiveness thing, and that's okay. I just think that while the close conflation was useful for quite a while, it's time for the T part to ditch the training wheels, leave the nest, make its own way in the world, et cetera metaphor, et cetera. Not to expose it to attacks or to let it whither and fail, but to let the world see and understand it properly.

And now I really have to get running!
 
2012-11-12 02:24:56 PM  
ciberido: A lot of what makes a male-to-female transsexual look masculine is the skeletal structure. The earlier you start on female hormones, the more your body will look like a "normal" woman's body later in life. Especially if you start before puberty. Later in life, especially after age 30, things like your skeleton and Adam's apple are set and can't be changed. Though there are surgeries to "shave" the Adam's Apple and to make the hips and buttocks look more rounded and feminine, I'm not sure how successful they actually are.

Someone I dated briefly in my early 20s (before she came out as trans) did the M2F thing in her late 20s/early 30s. Having made a ridiculous amount of money as a system administrator during the dot-com boom, she was able to have a LOT of plastic surgery. I'm not even sure of everything she had done, but I didn't even recognize her when I ran into her again. I know she had her chin and adam's apple shaved down, a nose job, some sort of lip-plumping procedure, electrolysis, and breast implants before she went through the final surgery. After the surgery she had her implants redone (not natural enough the first time) and some sort of laryngoplasty to raise her voice because she wasn't satisfied with the results of non-surgical voice therapy.

Anyway, she's farking hot. She could pass for a Swedish model. She's 6'3", mind you, and she's still got unusually broad shoulders and large hands for a woman (though so do I, and I've always been female), but most people don't seem to question her sex, and most men pretty much have their tongues dragging on the ground in her vicinity. Alas for them, she is a lesbian. (In fact, last time I checked she was living with another M2F, which may actually qualify as doublegay.)
 
2012-11-12 05:22:09 PM  

runcible spork: ykarie: I think it was one personal incident taken as anecdotal evidence of a broader issue. Sure, some people in California were being provocative about the unisex bathroom thing. But it is a problem for people like me, and if some provocateurs were willing to go on the line on the opposite coast and do their thing in public to push the issue, then more power to them and I will defend them from being called even just "goofy". It's not trolling when it's for a real purpose; even if the people taking action aren't all transgender they were willing to stand united with transgender people and that counts for something. Allies are good things.

It wasn't a personal incident (not mine, anyway), it was a news story. Did a quick search just now and was surprised to see that it was from nearly eight years ago (!). "A Quest for a Restroom That's Neither Men's Room Nor Women's Room" (NYTimes, 4 Mar 2005). While I agreed with the overall sentiment of the article and sympathized with most of the people and situations described, it was the one or two declarations of gender fluidity and the sense of "because I feel so right now and so I'm going to just want I want to do no matter how provocative that is" that irked me. Re-reading the article now, I see that at the timeI was oversensitive (and maybe even a bit hallucinatory) in that interpretation, and have maintained that impression over the years.


It was the lumping of "gender fluid" folks in with "trolls, poseurs and provocateurs" that upset me. Gender fluidity exists; just like bisexuality. Some people don't want to force themselves to pick one or the other forever and ever. Some of them may be just going through a pre-transsexual phase, where they are searching themselves out to see what gender they fit better. Some may choose to stay in that middle ground of "other". A very few may be real life trolls, but I see so few transgender trolls in threads like this and so many anti-trans trolls that I have a hard time believing the real would would be much different.

From the very first time "gender fluid" is brought up in this thread, by you if chrome's find word is right, you paint us as people who are doing this just to piss off society. As I said before, I don't doubt that there are people who do it specifically for those reasons; I've done a presentation on post-gender-feminism wearing chaps and a fake goatee (hey, I got there on a motorcycle, the chaps were justified). I've also done halloween with the thought "hey, guys wear dresses on halloween, I should dress up as a girl dressed as a guy dressed as a girl" which blew a few minds since I had to spend the evening in a college lecture. In my defense, the professor listed the class in the time table as "Trick or Treat" and you can't do that without a costume. But I'm comfortable stepping out of the closet like that; it's not an act put on to shock and stun other people, it's opening a window into who I am. If people choose to see it only as performance art, their loss.
 
2012-11-12 08:15:07 PM  

ciberido: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

So an infertile man isn't a man? And an infertile woman isn't a woman? My mother had a hysterectomy. She's not a woman anymore?


They were born with the necessary parts, but they simply do not work. Also born with the necessary chromosomes. So yeah, they are still a man and a woman. Just born with tough luck.
 
2012-11-12 08:16:33 PM  

Repo Man: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?


She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.
 
2012-11-12 09:07:48 PM  

ykarie:

[ ... ]


Thank you very much for the exegesis. Helps me to understand your situation better, though somewhat ironically it's difficult to wrap my head around the notion. I need to take a cue from my own advice to cisgender people who are trying to understand what it's like to be transgender: just because you can't relate to an experience in a visceral way, it's no reason to dismiss or disparage it. Acceptance and sympathy if not true empathy.


ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.



I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.
 
2012-11-12 10:48:12 PM  

runcible spork: ykarie:

[ ... ]

Thank you very much for the exegesis. Helps me to understand your situation better, though somewhat ironically it's difficult to wrap my head around the notion. I need to take a cue from my own advice to cisgender people who are trying to understand what it's like to be transgender: just because you can't relate to an experience in a visceral way, it's no reason to dismiss or disparage it. Acceptance and sympathy if not true empathy.


ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.


You didn't have a point. Maybe in that feeble mind of yours there were people applauding and cheering you, but you fell quite short. I have no ill will towards transgendered people. Just saying no matter what type of surgery they have they're just cosmetically a different gender. Maybe when there is a way to manipulate chromosomes they can say they're a man or a woman, but until then it is what it is. Even still, it's whatever makes them happy. If they think they're a man or a woman because of some hack 'n slash, testosterone, and estrogen shots then so be it. Whatever makes them happy. For what it's worth I believe them when they say they feel like they're the wrong gender. Isn't like they're making it up. I could totally understand it.
 
2012-11-12 10:58:49 PM  

ParagonComplex: ciberido: ParagonComplex: A man can never truly be a women unless technology advances enough to allow them to carry a child. Same with woman never really being a man unless it gets testicles that can produce viable sperm. At the end of the day it's all cosmetics. Whatever makes them happy. Just shouldn't kid themselves.

So an infertile man isn't a man? And an infertile woman isn't a woman? My mother had a hysterectomy. She's not a woman anymore?

They were born with the necessary parts, but they simply do not work. Also born with the necessary chromosomes. So yeah, they are still a man and a woman. Just born with tough luck.


2.bp.blogspot.com

Looks like hard work to me.
 
2012-11-12 11:04:36 PM  
Repo Man: If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.


And a ftm transsexual is a man born with a birth defect (namely, the lack of a penis and the presence of a uterus). Just as a mtg is a woman who was born with a birth defect (namely, the presence of a penis and the lack of a uterus). This is not a difficult concept. You don't reject it because you can't understand it. You reject it because it violates your prejudices.


ParagonComplex: I have no ill will towards transgendered people.


So now we can add "dishonesty" to your list of charms.
 
2012-11-12 11:17:22 PM  

ParagonComplex: runcible spork:

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

I suspect you have no idea how ignorant and hypocritical this makes you sound. Also: Go back, you missed the point.

You didn't have a point. Maybe in that feeble mind of yours there were people applauding and cheering you, but you fell quite short. I have no ill will towards transgendered people. Just saying no matter what type of surgery they have they're just cosmetically a different gender. Maybe when there is a way to manipulate chromosomes they can say they're a man or a woman, but until then it is what it is. Even still, it's whatever makes them happy. If they think they're a man or a woman because of some hack 'n slash, testosterone, and estrogen shots then so be it. Whatever makes them happy. For what it's worth I believe them when they say they feel like they're the wrong gender. Isn't like they're making it up. I could totally understand it.



Bzzzt!! Try again. I'll spell it out for you. X-Y.

/ tip: Resorting to petty ad hominem insults such as "that feeble mind of yours" doesn't bolster your argument or make you seem sympathetic. And if you can't discern a difference between how you phrase that and my qualified and measured words (e.g., "I suspect you don't realize [this] makes you sound") you also lack subtlety. Your attitude consistently belies your words and you aren't fooling anyone.
// more: ParagonComplex: Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect. I realize this may be difficult for you, but imagine expanding this notion. For transsexual people, this kind of "birth defect" encompasses the primary and secondary sex characteristics as well. It isn't that much of a stretch.
/// It wasn't my point, originally. More reading comprehension problems on your part.
 
2012-11-13 12:33:31 AM  

DrPainMD: cycle23: DrPainMD: The Jami Turman Fan Club: DrPainMD: dopekitty74: So right now, both have girlparts down below?

I understand that the surgery to add boy parts is pretty gnarly (not in a good way) but doesn't this technically make them a lesbian couple?

No, one has girlparts and the other has mutilated boyparts. And, they're a straight couple... always will be.

See this person?

[images.art.com image 385x476]

[www.erikacoimbra.com.br image 210x384]

That's Erika Coimbra. Competed with Brazil on the volleyball team in 2000 and 2004.

She has XY chromosones. Male chromosones. She has had no surgery.

Do you think she should be required to marry a guy, or a girl?

I think he should marry whomever he wants to marry. It's nobody's business but his own (and the fiances, of course).

Ahem. Thouest can stop writing "whom" now.. it's the 21st century. I noticed you did not put two spaces after your period. Pick a stupid convention and stick with it, smart guy.

Whom isn't Old English, it's proper English. "Who" and "whom" follow the same rules as "he" and "him."


What makes something Old English and proper? You sound like a S.N.O.O.T.
 
2012-11-13 02:39:41 AM  

ciberido: Repo Man: If you will read The Jami Turman Fan Club's post above, you'll see a woman with complete androgen insensitivity. She has XY chromosomes, but no uterus or fallopian tubes. Is she not really a woman?

ParagonComplex: She is if she's born with the correct chromosomes. Born without a uterus or fallopian tubes is just a birth defect.

And a ftm transsexual is a man born with a birth defect (namely, the lack of a penis and the presence of a uterus). Just as a mtg is a woman who was born with a birth defect (namely, the presence of a penis and the lack of a uterus). This is not a difficult concept. You don't reject it because you can't understand it. You reject it because it violates your prejudices.


ParagonComplex: I have no ill will towards transgendered people.

So now we can add "dishonesty" to your list of charms.


I don't have any prejudices. They're born feeling the way they do just like homosexuals are born feeling the way they do. I suppose I can see why they could consider being born with a penis instead of a vagina as a birth defect. It doesn't make it true. Theirs is a chemical imbalance and a genetic thing. Just like it doesn't make it true that they're really a man or a woman just because they have mutilated genitalia and get regular testosterone or estrogen shots.
 
2012-11-13 06:00:47 AM  

ParagonComplex: I suppose I can see why they could consider being born with a penis instead of a vagina as a birth defect. It doesn't make it true. Theirs is a chemical imbalance and a genetic thing. Just like it doesn't make it true that they're really a man or a woman just because they have mutilated genitalia and get regular testosterone or estrogen shots.


.05 / 10
 
2012-11-13 11:52:48 AM  

ParagonComplex: I don't have any prejudices.

...

then why does it matter to you so much?
 
2012-11-13 03:32:55 PM  

tinfoil-hat maggie: I think you missed the part about Dr. Money see specifically the part about David Reimer. No one is masculine or feminine at birth except for one thing according to Dr. Money. The hard wiring of the the brain though has already happened and cannot be changed and if taken care of early enough the body can be changed to match the brain but not the other way around.


Hmm. Maybe I was unclear about what I was responding to, but I wasn't talking about how I thought gender identity worked, how transexualism should be handled, or anything to do with Dr. Money's ideas or David Reimer (of whom I am well aware). I was only talking about how I thought the general population would think transsexuals "should" live.

Basically I had imagined that some large proportion of people would just want to avoid being confronted by things that make them uncomfortable. Thus, I figured they'd want someone who was very masculine to just dress like and live as a man instead of trying to pass themselves off as a woman, even if that was their preference. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but that's what I was talking about.
 
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