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(Denver Post)   13 things that would have passed the Senate if there were no filibuster. [warning: picture of ugly turtle]   (denverpost.com) divider line 101
    More: Interesting, the warning, Senate, Capitol Hill in Washington, filibusters, turtles  
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7203 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Nov 2012 at 6:55 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-10 04:09:16 PM  
Ok, thanks for sharing.

/Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too
 
2012-11-10 04:36:14 PM  

cman: /Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too


Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.
 
2012-11-10 04:44:38 PM  
"a bill to end a provision in tax law that allows companies to deduct the cost of moving jobs overseas as a business expense. The bill would have given an additional tax credit for moving jobs back to the U.S."

NOW WHY would turtle-americans be against a bill like this?
Time to think about making turtle soup.
 
2012-11-10 04:48:03 PM  
And this is the reason for which I am not the person who is the fan of the fillingbusters because these are all of the good suggestions if you do the asking of me.

Prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases

I believe this would be the important thing as the lactose intolerance should be up to the HHS department thereof and not the EPA department of protection because if we are talking about the gases then maybe we should call the chemist for doing this in the fusion chamber so I am not seeing why the EPA would do the regulation of this unless they are the medical professionals.
 
2012-11-10 04:57:27 PM  
While, with a GOP House this issue is less practically relevant, the filibuster is and remains a travesty.
 
2012-11-10 05:16:44 PM  

meow said the dog: And this is the reason for which I am not the person who is the fan of the fillingbusters because these are all of the good suggestions if you do the asking of me.


Dont get me started on obstructionism. The filibuster, preventing bills which would be passed?? sigh
The House has the strange reverse happening, where the majority prevents bills from being voted on, KNOWING that they would have to vote in favor of the bills or LOOK TERRIBLE.

Must really suck, KNOWING that the bills are righteous and should be passed and working so hard to prevent having to vote for the truth. or vote against something which is popular and looking foolish for doing so.

/I get that both houses get to make their own rules, but wouldnt it be nice if say, 30% could FORCE a floor vote???
/ HAHAHAHAHAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
/sigh
 
2012-11-10 05:39:49 PM  
Too bad these retards don't succumb to the intense laughter directed at their supudity

/apologies to any mentally disabled
 
2012-11-10 06:14:03 PM  
Did anything get passed in the last 2 years?
 
2012-11-10 06:36:14 PM  

antidisestablishmentarianism: Did anything get passed in the last 2 years?


Kidney stones.
 
2012-11-10 06:51:38 PM  

RedPhoenix122: antidisestablishmentarianism: Did anything get passed in the last 2 years?

Kidney stones.


You owe me a new keyboard, and since this is a Mac wireless keyboard, thats about $70. Your humor cost you $70. Thats how funny you were.
 
2012-11-10 06:55:59 PM  

kronicfeld: Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.


There is very rarely such a thing as a well made point involving Hitler. I don't know what was in the part you didn't quote, but there was no brilliant argument in the part you did.
 
2012-11-10 06:58:28 PM  
McConnell will end his senate career when he's found dead in a rubber suit having suffocated on semen.
 
2012-11-10 07:00:29 PM  
The U.S. Postal Service has faced mounting financial troubles because of increased use of the Internet.

Oh great, this bullshiat again.
 
2012-11-10 07:02:02 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: McConnell will end his senate career when he's found dead in a rubber suit having suffocated on semen.


He might have a tough time in 2014. Kentucky rejected his hand picked candidate in 2010 for farking Rand Paul. Could be the next Dick Lugar.
 
2012-11-10 07:02:21 PM  

GAT_00: kronicfeld: Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.

There is very rarely such a thing as a well made point involving Hitler. I don't know what was in the part you didn't quote, but there was no brilliant argument in the part you did.


Ahh, GAT, the only one who I actually care about who put me on ignore.

I know you wont see this, and maybe if someone can quote me, you will be able to see this.

I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

/Now, THAT is a run-on
 
2012-11-10 07:04:32 PM  
The filibuster doesn't need to be struck down, just modified. Require they actually have to be physically present, reading the phone book or the Joy of Cooking, just like in the old days.

You could also lower the threshold of votes necessary to overcome the filibuster.

Has anyone heard any talk of this officially?
 
2012-11-10 07:04:51 PM  

cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.


Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.
 
2012-11-10 07:05:25 PM  

meow said the dog: And this is the reason for which I am not the person who is the fan of the fillingbusters because these are all of the good suggestions if you do the asking of me.

Prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases

I believe this would be the important thing as the lactose intolerance should be up to the HHS department thereof and not the EPA department of protection because if we are talking about the gases then maybe we should call the chemist for doing this in the fusion chamber so I am not seeing why the EPA would do the regulation of this unless they are the medical professionals.


I dunno what sort of 'erb you're working with but you need to a lot less of it. Or a whole lot more. What you're doing now ain't cuttin' it
 
2012-11-10 07:08:09 PM  
Sen. Debbie Stabenow ... proposed a bill to end a provision in tax law that allows companies to deduct the cost of moving jobs overseas as a business expense.

B-b-but Romney said the idea that you get a break for shipping jobs overseas is simply not the case! Who am I to believe?
 
2012-11-10 07:08:49 PM  

RedPhoenix122: cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.


I cannot remember any specific real life examples, but there was a movie that did show the positives of a filibuster: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. I know using a movie is a cop out, a weak form, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the top of my mind.
 
2012-11-10 07:10:22 PM  

cman: RedPhoenix122: cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.

I cannot remember any specific real life examples, but there was a movie that did show the positives of a filibuster: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. I know using a movie is a cop out, a weak form, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the top of my mind.


Wait, I remember one.

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of having Vice President Dick Cheney, as President of the Senate, rule from the chair that a filibuster on judicial nominees was inconsistent with the constitutional grant of power to the president to name judges with the advice and consent of the Senate (interpreting "consent of the Senate" to mean "consent of a simple majority of Senators," not "consent under the Senate rules").[32] Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, had named the plan the "nuclear option." Republican leaders preferred to use the term "constitutional option", although opponents and some supporters of the plan continued to use "nuclear option".
 
2012-11-10 07:10:33 PM  
So, without the filibuster, basic, necessary legislation would have passed the Senate, along with a few moronic pieces of nonsense that could have been vetoed.

Fark the filibuster. There's no reason or excuse to give the minority absolute control over the government like that.
 
2012-11-10 07:11:20 PM  

GAT_00: kronicfeld: Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.

There is very rarely such a thing as a well made point involving Hitler. I don't know what was in the part you didn't quote, but there was no brilliant argument in the part you did.


The part you didn't see was "Ok, thanks for sharing." That's it.

/the reason cman mentioned Hitler is because of the anti-abortion argument that if you're pregnant and get an abortion, there's a chance you would end up murdering the next Einstein (or Jobs), and the counter-argument that if you carry the child to term instead of getting an abortion there's a chance that the child would end up being the next Hitler
//sometimes you have to use a Godwin to counter absurd arguments like that. See also the people claiming that Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, the SEALs did -- and the counter-argument that Hitler didn't kill all those Jews, the Nazis did
 
2012-11-10 07:11:56 PM  

cman: Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too


Are you trying to say that all aborted babies would have been tyrants?
 
2012-11-10 07:11:57 PM  
Keep the filibuster but go back to this

img69.imageshack.us


Phone books, dictionaries, piss buckets...

If it's important enough, you should be willing to suffer for it.
 
2012-11-10 07:12:07 PM  
I love how two of those relate to raising taxes on oil companies.

You've got 90 billion dollars to piss away by throwing it at your friends in the non-existent green energy industry but you continue to bemoan and cry the oil companies?

President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

More stimulus to be used on "shovel ready" projects and to pump up union supporters.

Raise tax rates on millionaires

Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.
 
2012-11-10 07:12:27 PM  

namatad: "a bill to end a provision in tax law that allows companies to deduct the cost of moving jobs overseas as a business expense. The bill would have given an additional tax credit for moving jobs back to the U.S."

NOW WHY would turtle-americans be against a bill like this?
Time to think about making turtle soup.


THIS NEEDS TO BE REPEATED. ALWAYS.
 
2012-11-10 07:13:26 PM  

iaazathot: The filibuster doesn't need to be struck down, just modified. Require they actually have to be physically present, reading the phone book or the Joy of Cooking, just like in the old days.

You could also lower the threshold of votes necessary to overcome the filibuster.

Has anyone heard any talk of this officially?


Of course not, because only liberals and only those liberals NOT holding office want to suggest it. Working for a living is hard, better to let the "filibuster" continue than have to actually stand up and Filibuster things.
 
2012-11-10 07:15:30 PM  

cman: Ok, thanks for sharing.

/Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too


If you want to use an example of a "good" person you could do a hell of a lot better then Steve Jobs. An insane thief was all he was.
 
2012-11-10 07:16:18 PM  

King Something: GAT_00: kronicfeld: Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.

There is very rarely such a thing as a well made point involving Hitler. I don't know what was in the part you didn't quote, but there was no brilliant argument in the part you did.

The part you didn't see was "Ok, thanks for sharing." That's it.

/the reason cman mentioned Hitler is because of the anti-abortion argument that if you're pregnant and get an abortion, there's a chance you would end up murdering the next Einstein (or Jobs), and the counter-argument that if you carry the child to term instead of getting an abortion there's a chance that the child would end up being the next Hitler
//sometimes you have to use a Godwin to counter absurd arguments like that. See also the people claiming that Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, the SEALs did -- and the counter-argument that Hitler didn't kill all those Jews, the Nazis did


And the statistical improbabilities of any of those outcomes make the whole argument stupid. Extreme arguments such as those only serve to discredit the person making them.
 
2012-11-10 07:17:48 PM  

randomjsa: I love how two of those relate to raising taxes on oil companies.

You've got 90 billion dollars to piss away by throwing it at your friends in the non-existent green energy industry but you continue to bemoan and cry the oil companies?

President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

More stimulus to be used on "shovel ready" projects and to pump up union supporters.

Raise tax rates on millionaires

Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.


The top 1% are just sitting on their money. That's what always happens in a bad economy. Give it to the middle class and the poor, it'll work it's way up again, don't worry.
 
2012-11-10 07:20:01 PM  

cman: cman: RedPhoenix122: cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.

I cannot remember any specific real life examples, but there was a movie that did show the positives of a filibuster: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. I know using a movie is a cop out, a weak form, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the top of my mind.

Wait, I remember one.

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of having Vice President Dick Cheney, as President of the Senate, rule from the chair that a filibuster on judicial nominees was inconsistent with the constitutional grant of power to the president to name judges with the advice and consent of the Senate (interpreting "consent of the Senate" to mean "consent of a simple majority of Senators," not "consent under the Senate rules").[32] Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, had named the plan the "nuclear option." Republican leaders preferred to use the term "constitutional option", although opponents and some supporters of the plan continued to use "nuclear option".


GAT you're making cman sad. stop it
 
2012-11-10 07:21:38 PM  

cman: cman: RedPhoenix122: cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.

I cannot remember any specific real life examples, but there was a movie that did show the positives of a filibuster: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. I know using a movie is a cop out, a weak form, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the top of my mind.

Wait, I remember one.

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of having Vice President Dick Cheney, as President of the Senate, rule from the chair that a filibuster on judicial nominees was inconsistent with the constitutional grant of power to the president to name judges with the advice and consent of the Senate (interpreting "consent of the Senate" to mean "consent of a simple majority of Senators," not "consent under the Senate rules").[32] Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, had named the plan the "nuclear option." Republican leaders preferred to use the term "constitutional option", although opponents and some supporters of the plan continued to use "nuclear option".


That one seems kinda week, I'll stick with Mr. Smith.

The filibuster is important, because sometimes the majority IS a tyrant. But the current rules are bullshiat and need a-changin'.

This should have made an appearance by now.

i75.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-10 07:22:40 PM  
All the good spying bills passed so we can be safe from the tarists.
 
2012-11-10 07:28:38 PM  

Nome de Plume: All the good spying bills passed so we can be safe from the tarists.


Nobody wants to be seen as "weak" in The War on Terror/Crime/Drugs/Etc.
 
2012-11-10 07:33:55 PM  

GAT_00: King Something: GAT_00: kronicfeld: Someone will shiat on you, but your point is well made.

There is very rarely such a thing as a well made point involving Hitler. I don't know what was in the part you didn't quote, but there was no brilliant argument in the part you did.

The part you didn't see was "Ok, thanks for sharing." That's it.

/the reason cman mentioned Hitler is because of the anti-abortion argument that if you're pregnant and get an abortion, there's a chance you would end up murdering the next Einstein (or Jobs), and the counter-argument that if you carry the child to term instead of getting an abortion there's a chance that the child would end up being the next Hitler
//sometimes you have to use a Godwin to counter absurd arguments like that. See also the people claiming that Obama didn't kill Bin Laden, the SEALs did -- and the counter-argument that Hitler didn't kill all those Jews, the Nazis did

And the statistical improbabilities of any of those outcomes make the whole argument stupid. Extreme arguments such as those only serve to discredit the person making them.


Hence the Hitler counter-argument -- its purpose is to discredit the person making the argument being countered.
 
2012-11-10 07:38:20 PM  

randomjsa: I love how two of those relate to raising taxes on oil companies.

You've got 90 billion dollars to piss away by throwing it at your friends in the non-existent green energy industry but you continue to bemoan and cry the oil companies?

President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

More stimulus to be used on "shovel ready" projects and to pump up union supporters.

Raise tax rates on millionaires

Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.


Why would the private sector make roads and bridges? Or do you think all roads should be toll roads?
 
2012-11-10 07:42:52 PM  

TheBigJerk: cman: cman: RedPhoenix122: cman: I was using the authors simplistic logic to show that the argument for abolishing the filibuster based upon things they liked that did not pass was a horrible argument because the author fails to remember the negative things that would have passed without the filibuster.

Can you cite any examples?

Not meant to be rude, I actually would like to know. Personally I think the EPA unable to regulate greenhouse gasses would be a bad thing, but that's just me.

I cannot remember any specific real life examples, but there was a movie that did show the positives of a filibuster: Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. I know using a movie is a cop out, a weak form, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the top of my mind.

Wait, I remember one.

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of having Vice President Dick Cheney, as President of the Senate, rule from the chair that a filibuster on judicial nominees was inconsistent with the constitutional grant of power to the president to name judges with the advice and consent of the Senate (interpreting "consent of the Senate" to mean "consent of a simple majority of Senators," not "consent under the Senate rules").[32] Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, had named the plan the "nuclear option." Republican leaders preferred to use the term "constitutional option", although opponents and some supporters of the plan continued to use "nuclear option".

That one seems kinda weekweak, I'll stick with Mr. Smith.

The filibuster is important, because sometimes the majority IS a tyrant. But the current rules are bullshiat and need a-changin'.

This should have made an appearance by now.

[i75.photobucket.com image 500x375]


*sigh*
 
2012-11-10 07:44:22 PM  
The original point of the filibuster was to make sure everyone had time to read and think about the bill. Why not restore that? New rules are that any senator can call for the vote to be delayed, and the bill will be voted on in one weeks time. That way things aren't rammed through, but there is reasonable time to consider the bill and the minority party can't just shut congress down.
 
2012-11-10 07:46:10 PM  

Snapper Carr: Keep the filibuster but go back to this

[img69.imageshack.us image 700x512]


Phone books, dictionaries, piss buckets...

If it's important enough, you should be willing to suffer for it.


I agree with this direction. Televising a bunch of senators reading the phone book might make the average person take an interest in the legislation being discussed and put pressure one way or the other.

That being said, Reid better enact some sort of filibuster reform or get rid of the means to do it because you know damn well if/when the GOP has a chance to use this loophole to their advantage they will do so in a second. The only suprising thing is that they didn't think of this when they had the opportunity.
 
2012-11-10 07:49:01 PM  

randomjsa: I love how two of those relate to raising taxes on oil companies.

You've got 90 billion dollars to piss away by throwing it at your friends in the non-existent green energy industry but you continue to bemoan and cry the oil companies?

President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

More stimulus to be used on "shovel ready" projects and to pump up union supporters.

Raise tax rates on millionaires

Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.


So, the problem with the economy is that the rich just don't have enough money?
 
2012-11-10 07:49:57 PM  

fusillade762: The U.S. Postal Service has faced mounting financial troubles because of increased use of the Internet.

Oh great, this bullshiat again.


"Millennial" here,

numbers of important communications I sent/received before email was common: 7, in 13 years.
number of important communications I sent/received after email was common: eleventy billion in 15 years.
number of important communications I sent/received via snail mail after email common: probably about 500 in 15 years.
 
2012-11-10 07:50:31 PM  

randomjsa: I love how two of those relate to raising taxes on oil companies.

You've got 90 billion dollars to piss away by throwing it at your friends in the non-existent green energy industry but you continue to bemoan and cry the oil companies?

President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

More stimulus to be used on "shovel ready" projects and to pump up union supporters.

Raise tax rates on millionaires

Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.


i159.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-10 07:53:24 PM  
My pet box turtle objects to people who compare her and her kind to Mitch McConnell.
 
2012-11-10 07:54:19 PM  

Le Bomb Suprize: That being said, Reid better enact some sort of filibuster reform or get rid of the means to do it because you know damn well if/when the GOP has a chance to use this loophole to their advantage they will do so in a second. The only suprising thing is that they didn't think of this when they had the opportunity.


Wouldn't any Democratic effort to reform the filibuster be blocked by, well, Republican filibuster?
 
2012-11-10 08:07:34 PM  
Seriously, if you're going to make such a list, why would you make your #1 not actually fit your list criteria?

Prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases

Failed: 50-50, April 6, 2011, Senate Roll Call No. 54, 112nd Congress, 1st Session

If it were subjected to a majority vote and tied at 50-50, however, Vice President Joe Biden would have been allowed to vote and he presumably would have voted against it.
 
2012-11-10 08:11:53 PM  

Doc Daneeka: Le Bomb Suprize: That being said, Reid better enact some sort of filibuster reform or get rid of the means to do it because you know damn well if/when the GOP has a chance to use this loophole to their advantage they will do so in a second. The only suprising thing is that they didn't think of this when they had the opportunity.

Wouldn't any Democratic effort to reform the filibuster be blocked by, well, Republican filibuster?


Because the change would be done during the rules vote session where a simple majority of 50 is the only thing required. Harry Reid recently said that he is going to go after filibuster reform in the next rules session.
 
2012-11-10 08:11:54 PM  

Xetal: The original point of the filibuster was to make sure everyone had time to read and think about the bill. Why not restore that? New rules are that any senator can call for the vote to be delayed, and the bill will be voted on in one weeks time. That way things aren't rammed through, but there is reasonable time to consider the bill and the minority party can't just shut congress down.


Good points all. I think if the last 4 years (especially the last two) have taught us anything it's how often the filibuster rules are being abused and how badly in need of reform they are.
 
2012-11-10 08:13:05 PM  

Bhruic: Seriously, if you're going to make such a list, why would you make your #1 not actually fit your list criteria?

Prevent the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating greenhouse gases

Failed: 50-50, April 6, 2011, Senate Roll Call No. 54, 112nd Congress, 1st Session

If it were subjected to a majority vote and tied at 50-50, however, Vice President Joe Biden would have been allowed to vote and he presumably would have voted against it.


But you see, that was all speculation, and it fits the criteria, because it never had a chance to be voted on.
 
2012-11-10 08:13:52 PM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: fusillade762: The U.S. Postal Service has faced mounting financial troubles because of increased use of the Internet.

Oh great, this bullshiat again.

"Millennial" here,

numbers of important communications I sent/received before email was common: 7, in 13 years.
number of important communications I sent/received after email was common: eleventy billion in 15 years.
number of important communications I sent/received via snail mail after email common: probably about 500 in 15 years.


The USPS was doing just fine until the Republicans forced them (in 2005?) to fund their pension fund 75 YEARS in advance. That was the OP's point.
 
2012-11-10 08:15:17 PM  
I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority
 
2012-11-10 08:21:49 PM  

GAT_00: And the statistical improbabilities of any of those outcomes make the whole argument stupid. Extreme arguments such as those only serve to discredit the person making them.


And, ironically, because you seem to have missed it entirely, that was almost exactly the original poster's point. He's comparing the article's argument to that kind of idiotic argument. And that's why King Something said OPs point was well made.

With all due respect, this is one what just went over your head.
 
2012-11-10 08:22:17 PM  

cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority


I think that the Dems are pretty confident this may NEVER happen again as demographics are shifting even more and the Senate usually represents the actual electoral environment as the House is corrupted by gerrymandering (even though D Reps received a majority of actual votes vs members in the House).
 
2012-11-10 08:23:02 PM  

bugontherug: And that's why King Something said OPs point was well made.


Pardon me. Why kronicfeld said that.
 
2012-11-10 08:26:20 PM  

cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority


And keeping it works against you when you're in the majority and the other side is in the minority. The government seemed to function relatively well before 1970, when filibuster or the threat of filibuster was used extremely rarely.

www.washingtonpost.com 

This graph is actually showing cloture, which isn't a perfect measure of filibuster, but it's pretty good. Here's the article it came from.
 
2012-11-10 08:26:52 PM  

cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority


The minority could just go to Illinois to block a vote.
 
2012-11-10 08:27:26 PM  

ramblinwreck: cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority

I think that the Dems are pretty confident this may NEVER happen again as demographics are shifting even more and the Senate usually represents the actual electoral environment as the House is corrupted by gerrymandering (even though D Reps received a majority of actual votes vs members in the House).


As a progressive, Democratic voter, I am certain the Democrats will again be in the minority at some point.

And I still want filibuster reform.

That's because it:

1) is undemocratic,

2) screws up the assessment of responsibility in our political system (59 Democrats want something, and 40 Republicans and 1 Democrat oppose it--so the Democrats get blamed for failing to pass it), and

3) makes the system less responsive to popular will.

Number three is the big one, and it is why conservatives SHOULD oppose filibuster reform, and why progressives should support it. As the system becomes more responsive, it will encourage public participation. Increased public participation will in turn move the country to the left. That's why the Republicans work so hard at discouraging public participation at every turn.
 
2012-11-10 08:29:34 PM  
Apparently the filibuster was created in 2011 and only used by Republicans.
 
2012-11-10 08:30:29 PM  

bugontherug: As a progressive, Democratic voter, I am certain the Democrats will again be in the minority at some point.

And I still want filibuster reform.

That's because it:

1) is undemocratic,

2) screws up the assessment of responsibility in our political system (59 Democrats want something, and 40 Republicans and 1 Democrat oppose it--so the Democrats get blamed for failing to pass it), and

3) makes the system less responsive to popular will.

Number three is the big one, and it is why conservatives SHOULD oppose filibuster reform, and why progressives should support it. As the system becomes more responsive, it will encourage public participation. Increased public participation will in turn move the country to the left. That's why the Republicans work so hard at discouraging public participation at every turn.



I agree with you. It's funny though that you say the Republicans should be the ones opposing filibuster reform, since it was them that most prominently threatened to implement it.
 
2012-11-10 08:30:50 PM  

Snapper Carr: Keep the filibuster but go back to this

[img69.imageshack.us image 700x512]


Phone books, dictionaries, piss buckets...

If it's important enough, you should be willing to suffer for it.


Goddamn right. None of this "we're filibustering... now if you'll excuse us, we've all got planes to catch to our vacation homes" nonsense. If it means that much to you, you should at least be willing to put in some extra hours at work.
 
2012-11-10 08:31:01 PM  
Snapper Carr: Keep the filibuster but go back to this

[img69.imageshack.us image 700x512]


Phone books, dictionaries, piss buckets...

If it's important enough, you should be willing to suffer for it.


THIS
 
2012-11-10 08:32:13 PM  

hovsm: Apparently the filibuster was created in 2011 and only used by Republicans.


Please see the graph I posted above. Yeah, it really doesn't look like they're the ones that have escalated its use to douchetastic levels, does it?
 
2012-11-10 08:38:39 PM  

cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority


Yeah, but that never happens
 
2012-11-10 08:39:16 PM  
FTFA: The U.S. Postal Service has faced mounting financial troubles because of increased use of the Internet. This bill would have allowed it to restructure retirement accounts to recoup $11 billion and use some of that money to encourage 100,000 postal workers to retire.

Failed: 51-46, 3 Not Voting, Senate Roll Call No. 60, 112nd Congress, 2nd Session, March 27, 2012


So, tell me again about how the Republicans just want to cut spending and make government more efficient, and if the Democrats would just get on board with that agenda, they wouldn't obstruct so much...
 
2012-11-10 08:45:25 PM  

bugontherug: As a progressive, Democratic voter, I am certain the Democrats will again be in the minority at some point.

And I still want filibuster reform.

That's because it:

1) is undemocratic,

2) screws up the assessment of responsibility in our political system (59 Democrats want something, and 40 Republicans and 1 Democrat oppose it--so the Democrats get blamed for failing to pass it), and

3) makes the system less responsive to popular will.

Number three is the big one, and it is why conservatives SHOULD oppose filibuster reform, and why progressives should support it. As the system becomes more responsive, it will encourage public participation. Increased public participation will in turn move the country to the left. That's why the Republicans work so hard at discouraging public participation at every turn.



I was about to write a similar response. So many people seem incapable of understanding that sometimes a person supports something because it is the right thing to do, rather than because it will benefit them most.
 
2012-11-10 08:53:08 PM  

vwarb: I was about to write a similar response. So many people seem incapable of understanding that sometimes a person supports something because it is the right thing to do, rather than because it will benefit them most.


I do think filibuster reform is the right thing to do, and that's the main reason I support it. But to be clear, I actually do think it will benefit the left in the long run.
 
2012-11-10 08:53:56 PM  
In a move that will likely accomplish absolutely nothing, I just wrote my senator to suggest that they change to rules to bring back the genuine filibuster, where you actually have to stand there and talk. But then again, as my senator is Bernie Sanders, the last senator to actually stand there and talk for hours on end, maybe he'll like the idea.

Seems more productive than biatching about it on Fark, at least.
 
2012-11-10 08:54:08 PM  

Erix: I agree with you. It's funny though that you say the Republicans should be the ones opposing filibuster reform, since it was them that most prominently threatened to implement it.


Well, it's my understanding that Harry Reid says filibuster reform is a done deal. If that's true, the Democrats aren't "threatening" it anymore.
 
2012-11-10 08:57:04 PM  

bugontherug: Erix: I agree with you. It's funny though that you say the Republicans should be the ones opposing filibuster reform, since it was them that most prominently threatened to implement it.

Well, it's my understanding that Harry Reid says filibuster reform is a done deal. If that's true, the Democrats aren't "threatening" it anymore.


No shiat, really? That's awesome! I'm going to read up on that. Of course, now I find out, after writing my senator about it. Oh well.. better late than never.
 
2012-11-10 08:59:51 PM  

Erix: bugontherug: Erix: I agree with you. It's funny though that you say the Republicans should be the ones opposing filibuster reform, since it was them that most prominently threatened to implement it.

Well, it's my understanding that Harry Reid says filibuster reform is a done deal. If that's true, the Democrats aren't "threatening" it anymore.

No shiat, really? That's awesome! I'm going to read up on that. Of course, now I find out, after writing my senator about it. Oh well.. better late than never.



Link
 
2012-11-10 09:02:38 PM  

bugontherug: Erix: bugontherug: Erix: I agree with you. It's funny though that you say the Republicans should be the ones opposing filibuster reform, since it was them that most prominently threatened to implement it.

Well, it's my understanding that Harry Reid says filibuster reform is a done deal. If that's true, the Democrats aren't "threatening" it anymore.

No shiat, really? That's awesome! I'm going to read up on that. Of course, now I find out, after writing my senator about it. Oh well.. better late than never.


Link


Haha.. thanks; I was actually about the ask you where you heard about that, but I could just see the "let me Google that for you" reply, so I searched for it myself. I also found this incredibly disingenuous and misleading reply from Jim DeMint. What an ass.
 
2012-11-10 09:05:42 PM  

Erix: Haha.. thanks; I was actually about the ask you where you heard about that, but I could just see the "let me Google that for you" reply, so I searched for it myself. I also found this incredibly disingenuous and misleading reply from Jim DeMint. What an ass.


Well, it's especially misleading because contrary to DeMint's article, Harry Reid has made clear he doesn't plan to get rid of the filibuster. I wish he would, but that's not going to happen.
 
2012-11-10 09:06:47 PM  

Selena Luna: My pet box turtle objects to people who compare her and her kind to Mitch McConnell.


Off-topic, but when I was younger we had a tiny turtle named Ed. He was a slow learner, but cute as a button. Whenever he slipped off his rock he would sink like a stone, and the others in the aquarium kinda pushed him around. It took time, but he finally learned to hold his own. His delayed development caused me to nickname him "Special Ed." The name stuck. He was adorable. And I, too, resent real turtles being compared to that rotten, waffle-stomping, intransigent cockbag McConnel.

/csb
 
2012-11-10 09:07:48 PM  

bugontherug: Erix: Haha.. thanks; I was actually about the ask you where you heard about that, but I could just see the "let me Google that for you" reply, so I searched for it myself. I also found this incredibly disingenuous and misleading reply from Jim DeMint. What an ass.

Well, it's especially misleading because contrary to DeMint's article, Harry Reid has made clear he doesn't plan to get rid of the filibuster. I wish he would, but that's not going to happen.


It's almost as if the Republicans are in the habit of inventing their own realities whenever it suits them.

Wait, that's the next thread down.
 
2012-11-10 09:10:21 PM  

Erix: But then again, as my senator is Bernie Sanders, the last senator to actually stand there and talk for hours on end, maybe he'll like the idea.


I'm a huge Sanders fan. I'm jealous that you have such ballsy representation. I've watched many of his speeches and the guy is certainly a true believer. I'm a fan.
 
2012-11-10 09:11:47 PM  

bugontherug: Erix: Haha.. thanks; I was actually about the ask you where you heard about that, but I could just see the "let me Google that for you" reply, so I searched for it myself. I also found this incredibly disingenuous and misleading reply from Jim DeMint. What an ass.

Well, it's especially misleading because contrary to DeMint's article, Harry Reid has made clear he doesn't plan to get rid of the filibuster. I wish he would, but that's not going to happen.


Getting rid of it entirely is a bad idea. The minority needs to have some power, after all, to block anything that's seriously bad. But a filibuster should be more difficult, something a Congresscritter actually has to sacrifice for. If stopping a bill is so important, they should be willing to WORK for it.
 
2012-11-10 09:15:48 PM  
randomjsa (farkied: "Holy fnck you're an idiot." - Nina_Hartley's_Ass): Only a liberal could think "The private sector isn't doing so hot these days, let's take more money out of it and use it with all the efficiency and competence of the government" is actually a good idea.

So then the goose-stepping chicken hawk warmongers who want to bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran are liberals? I really don't think so.
 
2012-11-10 09:20:17 PM  

dickfreckle: Erix: But then again, as my senator is Bernie Sanders, the last senator to actually stand there and talk for hours on end, maybe he'll like the idea.

I'm a huge Sanders fan. I'm jealous that you have such ballsy representation. I've watched many of his speeches and the guy is certainly a true believer. I'm a fan.


Actually, I just happened to move into his district a few months ago, and had the pleasure of voting for him for the first time last week. Far better than my options in PA..
 
2012-11-10 09:34:10 PM  

LordJiro: Getting rid of it entirely is a bad idea. The minority needs to have some power, after all, to block anything that's seriously bad. But a filibuster should be more difficult, something a Congresscritter actually has to sacrifice for. If stopping a bill is so important, they should be willing to WORK for it.


THIS
simple enough, make the filibuster dynamic again. must be on the floor, while in session. you stop, they can vote. NOTHING else can be done by the senate while the filibuster is ongoing. NOTHING.
Other than hardship, all senators must stay in the room.

I would go a step further and require that whatever they talk about actually be on the TOPIC of the bill.
Make them farking actually repeat over and over WHY they think the bill is bad!!!
get 10 hours of that and the people will start complaining to their congressmen
 
2012-11-10 09:42:26 PM  

JohnnyC: cman: Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too

Are you trying to say that all aborted babies would have been tyrants?


They actually had a much greater chance of being killers.
 
2012-11-10 09:47:10 PM  

dickfreckle: Selena Luna: My pet box turtle objects to people who compare her and her kind to Mitch McConnell.

Off-topic, but when I was younger we had a tiny turtle named Ed. He was a slow learner, but cute as a button. Whenever he slipped off his rock he would sink like a stone, and the others in the aquarium kinda pushed him around. It took time, but he finally learned to hold his own. His delayed development caused me to nickname him "Special Ed." The name stuck. He was adorable. And I, too, resent real turtles being compared to that rotten, waffle-stomping, intransigent cockbag McConnel.

/csb


That is a cool story. My turtle is named ET. Instead of extra terrestrial, it stands for extra turtle, because we got her for free for being a spare. I think that makes her a democrat...
 
2012-11-10 09:54:23 PM  

cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority


Not many people are actually suggesting the complete removal of the filibuster, just the current, "declare a filibuster, end all discussion" rule.

Also to play devil's advocate; the democrats pretty much rolled over on every damn thing during the Bush years, so we probably wouldn't see that much difference anyway. Ell-oh-ell
 
2012-11-10 10:03:00 PM  
Way to keep this country down R-tards
 
2012-11-10 10:10:02 PM  

TheBigJerk: cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority

Not many people are actually suggesting the complete removal of the filibuster, just the current, "declare a filibuster, end all discussion" rule.

Also to play devil's advocate; the democrats pretty much rolled over on every damn thing during the Bush years, so we probably wouldn't see that much difference anyway. Ell-oh-ell


Considering how obstructive the GOP has been using the filibuster, one would think that the Democrats would return the favor the next time GOP has majority in the senate.
 
2012-11-10 10:25:52 PM  

cman: TheBigJerk: cman: I am surprised I will be the first person to point this out:


getting rid of the filibuster will work against you when the other side is majority and your side is minority

Not many people are actually suggesting the complete removal of the filibuster, just the current, "declare a filibuster, end all discussion" rule.

Also to play devil's advocate; the democrats pretty much rolled over on every damn thing during the Bush years, so we probably wouldn't see that much difference anyway. Ell-oh-ell

Considering how obstructive the GOP has been using the filibuster, one would think that the Democrats would return the favor the next time GOP has majority in the senate.


You are making assumptions that I would not consider safe assumptions. Why do you think actual liberals spend so much time not even bothering to vote?
 
2012-11-10 10:33:37 PM  
The filibuster has become a bastardized version of its former self. I would rather an old white racist recite his mother's slaves' shortnin' bread recipes for hours on end than having the majority knuckle under and say "you win". That's one of the perks of a majority: The minority has to work to prevent you from passing your stuff. Even if that work is stalling for time to convince just one more Senator to vote your way, or for one Senator to keel over and fall asleep while you're talking.

/Every bill should have a final up or down vote if it makes the Senate floor.
//If you wanna filibuster, put on your Depends and actually filibuster.
 
2012-11-10 10:35:36 PM  

DamnYankees: While, with a GOP House this issue is less practically relevant, the filibuster is and remains a travesty.


No, the filibuster is fine and serves a useful purpose in protecting the rights of the minority. The problem is how it's currently implemented. Senators don't even have to use the filibuster as the rules stand now, they can simply use the threat of a filibuster plus endless procedural votes to bring things to a halt.
 
2012-11-10 10:41:25 PM  

RedPhoenix122: Failed: 50-50

But you see, that was all speculation, and it fits the criteria, because it never had a chance to be voted on.


Um, yeah, about that: "Here are 13 bills or nominations that received more than 50 votes"

So tell me again how a 50-50 vote received more than 50 votes?
 
2012-11-10 10:52:48 PM  
A party that ends the filibuster is a party that believes it will never be out of power again, which is exactly the sort of party that needs to be removed from power ASAP. This is why the filibuster isn't going anywhere: for all the derp and delusion, neither party is far enough gone yet to believe in a permanent majority.
 
2012-11-10 10:56:09 PM  

cman: Ok, thanks for sharing.

/Making abortion illegal will allow the little baby Steve Jobs to live, but also allow the little baby Adolf Hitlers to live, too


I use Linux. Abort both of 'em.

/Ducks
 
2012-11-10 11:07:42 PM  
So if we remove the filibuster, will the Senate finally pass a budget?

No, of course not. Reid has other things to do, like nothing.
 
2012-11-10 11:24:24 PM  
President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

In an effort to boost the economy in 2011, President Obama proposed a package of measures that would spend money on infrastructure and help state and local governments hire more teachers and police officers, among other things. The package failed, as did several of its components when brought up separately.

Failed: 50-49, 1 Not Voting, Oct. 11, 2011, Senate Roll Call No. 160, 112nd Congress, 1st Session


This one pisses me off the most. In 2010 they gain the House and claim they're going in on a jobs mandate.

And what do they do? They reject a bill that encourages job growth . . .
 
2012-11-10 11:29:24 PM  

heinekenftw: President Obama's 2011 jobs proposal

In an effort to boost the economy in 2011, President Obama proposed a package of measures that would spend money on infrastructure and help state and local governments hire more teachers and police officers, among other things. The package failed, as did several of its components when brought up separately.

Failed: 50-49, 1 Not Voting, Oct. 11, 2011, Senate Roll Call No. 160, 112nd Congress, 1st Session

This one pisses me off the most. In 2010 they gain the House and claim they're going in on a jobs mandate.

And what do they do? They reject a bill that encourages job growth . . .


Socialist jobs aren't real jobs (or something)
 
2012-11-10 11:37:18 PM  

Mentat: DamnYankees: While, with a GOP House this issue is less practically relevant, the filibuster is and remains a travesty.

No, the filibuster is fine and serves a useful purpose in protecting the rights of the minority. The problem is how it's currently implemented. Senators don't even have to use the filibuster as the rules stand now, they can simply use the threat of a filibuster plus endless procedural votes to bring things to a halt.


Actually the mechanics of a "real" filibuster make things more inconvenient for the majority to maintain a quorum. Those that say "bring back the days of reading the phone book" may not realize that when you *do* have that, the minority can just schedule their days in shifts and continually yield their time to the next guy on the schedule. It's pretty easy for them. The majority, however, have to keep their members around, otherwise there's no quorum, and the session's adjourned.

Reid's got the right idea. He's not eliminating it, but removing the "motion to proceed" and maybe reducing the threshold to 55, would remove a LOT of the mechanical obstructions. Plus, the Republicans shouldn't fear it since nothing truly dangerous to their ideology would get past the House.
 
2012-11-11 12:26:57 AM  
Interesting tidbit: if you take all the congressional races, and add up all the votes to democrats and all the votes for republicans, there were over 1 million more votes for democrats but the GOP took 233 seats and the Dems 194 give or take a recount or two.

Our spelling words for the year are filibuster and gerrymander.
 
2012-11-11 12:40:11 AM  
Looks like a pretty mixed bag. I'm sorry we didn't get more teachers hired, but what kind of delusion has people thinking we need more police in the United States?
 
2012-11-11 01:36:28 AM  

StopLurkListen: Actually the mechanics of a "real" filibuster make things more inconvenient for the majority to maintain a quorum. Those that say "bring back the days of reading the phone book" may not realize that when you *do* have that, the minority can just schedule their days in shifts and continually yield their time to the next guy on the schedule. It's pretty easy for them. The majority, however, have to keep their members around, otherwise there's no quorum, and the session's adjourned.

Reid's got the right idea. He's not eliminating it, but removing the "motion to proceed" and maybe reducing the threshold to 55, would remove a LOT of the mechanical obstructions. Plus, the Republicans shouldn't fear it since nothing truly dangerous to their ideology would get past the House.


I'm not advocating that. My preference would be in eliminating anonymous holds and then switching to a tiered system whereby the first week you would need 60 votes to break the filibuster, the second week 55 and every subsequent week 51. You would obviously need to close some other loopholes, but that would give the minority an opportunity to slow things down without being able to completely shut down the legislative branch.
 
2012-11-11 01:39:38 AM  

StopLurkListen: Mentat: DamnYankees: While, with a GOP House this issue is less practically relevant, the filibuster is and remains a travesty.

No, the filibuster is fine and serves a useful purpose in protecting the rights of the minority. The problem is how it's currently implemented. Senators don't even have to use the filibuster as the rules stand now, they can simply use the threat of a filibuster plus endless procedural votes to bring things to a halt.

Actually the mechanics of a "real" filibuster make things more inconvenient for the majority to maintain a quorum. Those that say "bring back the days of reading the phone book" may not realize that when you *do* have that, the minority can just schedule their days in shifts and continually yield their time to the next guy on the schedule. It's pretty easy for them. The majority, however, have to keep their members around, otherwise there's no quorum, and the session's adjourned.

Reid's got the right idea. He's not eliminating it, but removing the "motion to proceed" and maybe reducing the threshold to 55, would remove a LOT of the mechanical obstructions. Plus, the Republicans shouldn't fear it since nothing truly dangerous to their ideology would get past the House.


One of Senator Merkley's ideas for reforming the filibuster was requiring the minority to maintain a minimum number of people on the floor to sustain the filibuster. The minimum number of people required to sustain it would increase the longer the filibuster was sustained. I think the thresholds he suggested were 5 people for the first 24 hours, 10 for the next 24 hours, and 20 after that. I'd be inclined to suggest it eventually hit 40 since you need more than 40 people to make a cloture vote fail, but I'm crazy.
 
2012-11-11 10:35:09 AM  

Bhruic: RedPhoenix122: Failed: 50-50

But you see, that was all speculation, and it fits the criteria, because it never had a chance to be voted on.

Um, yeah, about that: "Here are 13 bills or nominations that received more than 50 votes"

So tell me again how a 50-50 vote received more than 50 votes?


Because Biden would cast the vote to make it 51-50 if the damn Senate operated in a sane manner.
 
2012-11-11 01:09:00 PM  

Serious Black: StopLurkListen: Mentat: DamnYankees: While, with a GOP House this issue is less practically relevant, the filibuster is and remains a travesty.

No, the filibuster is fine and serves a useful purpose in protecting the rights of the minority. The problem is how it's currently implemented. Senators don't even have to use the filibuster as the rules stand now, they can simply use the threat of a filibuster plus endless procedural votes to bring things to a halt.

Actually the mechanics of a "real" filibuster make things more inconvenient for the majority to maintain a quorum. Those that say "bring back the days of reading the phone book" may not realize that when you *do* have that, the minority can just schedule their days in shifts and continually yield their time to the next guy on the schedule. It's pretty easy for them. The majority, however, have to keep their members around, otherwise there's no quorum, and the session's adjourned.

Reid's got the right idea. He's not eliminating it, but removing the "motion to proceed" and maybe reducing the threshold to 55, would remove a LOT of the mechanical obstructions. Plus, the Republicans shouldn't fear it since nothing truly dangerous to their ideology would get past the House.

One of Senator Merkley's ideas for reforming the filibuster was requiring the minority to maintain a minimum number of people on the floor to sustain the filibuster.


That may be what Reid meant by eliminating the "motion to proceed" (required minimum votes to bring a bill before the full Sebate) -- changing it into a "motion to block". Or whatever legalese they'd call it.

The minimum number of people required to sustain it would increase the longer the filibuster was sustained. I think the thresholds he suggested were 5 people for the first 24 hours, 10 for the next 24 hours, and 20 after that. I'd be inclined to suggest it eventually hit 40 since you need more than 40 people to make a cloture vote fail, but I'm crazy.

I wouldn't support that, if I were a grand pooh-bah, it just means you schedule things with this in mind. I'd rather keep simple vote threshold. (anyone left out there in this thread? I'm kinda late :( )
 
2012-11-11 06:37:24 PM  

ramblinwreck:
So tell me again how a 50-50 vote received more than 50 votes?

Because Biden would cast the vote to make it 51-50 if the damn Senate operated in a sane manner.


Seriously, do people even read the farking article?

"Vice President Joe Biden would have been allowed to vote and he presumably would have voted against it."
 
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