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(New York Magazine)   Everyone is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts   (nymag.com) divider line 303
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7601 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Nov 2012 at 5:44 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-10 06:13:01 PM  

Raharu: Silly Jesus, you seem to be having a lot of trouble with this, but don't worry!

I have a link that can help you.

Here you go Silly Jesus, this should help you catch up to the rest of the world.


Ummm....oook...

/backs away slowly
 
2012-11-10 06:14:06 PM  

Silly Jesus: No, shooting people for not believing what they believe is what I meant

Oh, yeah, that bit is a tad extreme.


A tad? Listen to the two of you, calmly discussing how superior you are to all the other citizens of our country. Your combined arrogance is truly astounding.
 
2012-11-10 06:16:29 PM  

vartian: Silly Jesus: No, shooting people for not believing what they believe is what I meant

Oh, yeah, that bit is a tad extreme.

A tad? Listen to the two of you, calmly discussing how superior you are to all the other citizens of our country. Your combined arrogance is truly astounding.


I AM VASTLY SUPERIOR TO YOU BECAUSE I LIKE CAMPBELLS CHICKEN NOODLE SOUP AND YOU DO NOT
 
2012-11-10 06:17:32 PM  

Aldon: randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.

You keep hoping and wishing our President will screw up... sooner or later one of your Obama's Katrina! Obama-gate! accusations will really amount to something, then you can be happy about our country suffering.

/frankly I am amazed that Obama has not had a scandal in his first term, unlike every other President in my lifetime. It would be genius level amazing if he does the same on his second term.


You don't think Obama's plot to shove gun control down our throats by personally handing automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords so they'll terrorize the public causing them to cry out for protection constitutes a scandal?
 
2012-11-10 06:18:58 PM  

Silly Jesus: Idealistically, I still yearn for an informed and intelligent electorate making life and death decisions concerning me and my family.


Its not whether or not they are informed that worries me. Its the incapacity of most to accept new information that doesn't feel right to them, whether armed with lots of facts or few of them. There was a study that showed that people knew the most were actually least accommodating to changing their minds when shown they believed falsehoods.

Some of the most informed people are the most delusional. Look at Rove on election night.
 
2012-11-10 06:19:50 PM  
Mitt Romney is already slithering into the mists of history

The chant is reaching fever pitch. Mouths shriek, throats split. 'Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Romney R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!'

I notice a sting on my arm. When I look down, a locust with Ayn Rand's face gorges messily on my flesh. I understand now.

Romney whips his hooded priests, screaming that 10% must have their hearts ripped from their chests to achieve Godhood.

Coulter spews acid and tar at the crowd, fusing them together in a grotesque mass. Smell is overwhelming, we wait to die.

A zombified titan stands on the stage. Shrugging his shoulders, a boulder of teeth, hair, and cartilage lands on the crowd

A mother hugs her shivering son. She doesn't notice when his mouth distends, revealing rows of razor-sharp teeth.

Romney warmly embraces the orphan before biting into her skull as if it were an apple.

Bush Sr steps on stage and we scream in rapturous agony as our skin is stretched to pieces, to the Washington Post March!

Paul Ryan is sitting just offstage at #RomneyDeathRally, pointing a camera at the crowd. He's not collecting their images, but their souls.
 
2012-11-10 06:19:58 PM  

vartian: Silly Jesus: No, shooting people for not believing what they believe is what I meant

Oh, yeah, that bit is a tad extreme.

A tad? Listen to the two of you, calmly discussing how superior you are to all the other citizens of our country. Your combined arrogance is truly astounding.


"Tad" was facetious. You seem like a really fun person to be around.

And if it's arrogant to realize that I'm intellectually superior to the mouth-breathers who think that the earth is 6,000 years old and that Jesus rode around on dinosaurs, your accusation is not the insult you intend it to be.
 
2012-11-10 06:20:22 PM  

bugontherug: Aldon: randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.

You keep hoping and wishing our President will screw up... sooner or later one of your Obama's Katrina! Obama-gate! accusations will really amount to something, then you can be happy about our country suffering.

/frankly I am amazed that Obama has not had a scandal in his first term, unlike every other President in my lifetime. It would be genius level amazing if he does the same on his second term.

You don't think Obama's plot to shove gun control down our throats by personally handing automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords so they'll terrorize the public causing them to cry out for protection constitutes a scandal?


Show us this gun control bill that Obama supports. Otherwise, go troll somewhere else.
 
2012-11-10 06:21:11 PM  

FlashHarry: cognitive dissonance is the air that republicans breathe.


It's not dissonance. Cognitive dissonance requires some degree of discomfort on the part of the individual, until the dissonance is resolved by selecting one of the two incongruent thoughts or by choosing a third path that incorporates sections of both.

What the Republicans have begin to embrace--more frighteningly, to me anyway--is doublethink, the ability to hold two contradictory beliefs while simultaneously believing both of them. In doublethink, there IS no discomfort, and both beliefs can be accepted even though they cannot be true. Anybody who can do that is functionally psychotic, and needs to be handled very carefully.
 
2012-11-10 06:21:37 PM  

namatad: Silly Jesus: Would you be in favor of voters having to demonstrate some modicum of intelligence / relevant knowledge prior to voting?

sure (all the questions are true or false)
1) president obama was born in america
2) president obama is a christian
3) the universe is over 8000 years old
4) evolution is a fact. our understanding of its processes are theoretical
5) there were and are no weapons of mass destruction in iraq
6) 9/11 really happened

we dont even need to LET the voter know the right answer
if they answer false for 1 of the questions, their vote doesnt count
if they answer false to 2-5 of the questions, their vote wont count for the rest of their life
if they answer false to all 6 questions, they are taken out back and shot

TADA
problem solved


1: true
2: true
3: true
4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)
5: false Ask the kurds about that one. (whether they were still around at the time of the Iraq invasion is entirely different)
6: true

Just because your bias wants all of these to be true does not make it so. So you probably shouldn't ask your questions the way they were asked or people will not be able to vote without disconnecting from reality. Just saying we all have our political beliefs and facts are facts just as theories are theories. Theory of relativity fact or theory?

//just saying perception is reality and you are perceiving facts that are not.
 
2012-11-10 06:23:38 PM  

bartink: Silly Jesus: Idealistically, I still yearn for an informed and intelligent electorate making life and death decisions concerning me and my family.

Its not whether or not they are informed that worries me. Its the incapacity of most to accept new information that doesn't feel right to them, whether armed with lots of facts or few of them. There was a study that showed that people knew the most were actually least accommodating to changing their minds when shown they believed falsehoods.

Some of the most informed people are the most delusional. Look at Rove on election night.


That is true. A simple "Who is the Vice President" type question wouldn't be sufficient. Anyone who didn't know the answer to that should obviously be kicked out of the process for that cycle, but knowledgeable morons would still get through.
 
2012-11-10 06:23:43 PM  

vartian: Silly Jesus: No, shooting people for not believing what they believe is what I meant

Oh, yeah, that bit is a tad extreme.

A tad? Listen to the two of you, calmly discussing how superior you are to all the other citizens of our country. Your combined arrogance is truly astounding.


Hey, nothing wrong with a competency test for voters.
i18.photobucket.com
As long as I get to write and administer it.
 
2012-11-10 06:23:52 PM  
0-media-cdn.foolz.us
 
2012-11-10 06:23:56 PM  

Aldon: There is something that all the Republicans seem to be missing from this last election....

1) They believed the election would be like 2010 and more voters would identify as Republicans.
2) They believed they were winning the independent vote so they couldn't loose.
3) They believe that 3 million Republican just didn't show up to vote.

The truth is that the only reason Romney won with independents and the turnout for self identified Republicans was so low was because: Those who identified themselves as Republicans in 2010 no longer identify as Republicans, instead they identify as independents but pretty much still vote Republican. So the truth was that Obama actually won the true independents.

/If Republicans don't realize the truth in the next couple of years, those ex-Republicans might actually be up for grabs.


Wouldn't it also make sense that a reason the demographics were more like 2008 than 2010 would be that 2010 was a midterm election, and conservatives always turn out in greater numbers than moderates and liberals in midterms? Thus it would be silly to assume the numbers would be like 2010?
 
2012-11-10 06:24:00 PM  

vartian: Silly Jesus: No, shooting people for not believing what they believe is what I meant

Oh, yeah, that bit is a tad extreme.

A tad? Listen to the two of you, calmly discussing how superior you are to all the other citizens of our country. Your combined arrogance is truly astounding.


media.washtimes.com
 
2012-11-10 06:24:58 PM  
the GOP denies anything that they imagine will not bring them a buck or that may cost them a buck, because in the end, the dollar is their only true love.
 
2012-11-10 06:25:35 PM  

GAT_00: There is no difference to Republicans. Opinions are facts.



and beliefs are facts too.
 
2012-11-10 06:27:06 PM  
jso2897: I support an uninformed and intellectually incompetent electorate. I wouldn't want to disenfranchise imbeciles when it comes to making important decisions concerning my life. Hurrrrrr Durrrrr.
 
2012-11-10 06:27:43 PM  

bugontherug: You don't think Obama's plot to shove gun control down our throats by personally handing automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords so they'll terrorize the public causing them to cry out for protection constitutes a scandal?


There is so much derp in that one sentence that it is not even worth going into. I repeat there was no scandal, a political scandal involves something immoral and/or illegal. Oh, and it has to be based on facts. I can't be something that only exists in the right wing echo chamber.

/"shove gun control down our throats" haahahahhahaaa! You guys are really in your own world aren't you?
 
2012-11-10 06:27:59 PM  

randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.


Even the conservative media and leadership seems to be realizing that embracing a false feel-good reality isn't in their best interest. You might want to follow suit.
 
2012-11-10 06:28:10 PM  
Two quotes and an anecdote:

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."

-- John Kenneth Galbraith

All right, that's almost a reasonable excuse for the current repub attitude.

"I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

And that's why I will never, ever, ever vote for a repub again, for any office. Ever.

Finally an anecdote. I've been seeing a lot of "Can't we all just get along?" type statements here and on Facebook. The argument is that civility and respect oblige progressives to reach out the hand of friendship -- again -- to conservatives if we are to have a return to political normalcy. This is why that can't, shouldn't, happen.

When I was a teenager I used to hang out with a friend named Jay. One day we were playing Risk. Late in the game I had beaten him down to a single army and he was about to lose that. "Oh, please," he said. "Leave me this one teeny little army so can say in the game. Just this one army." I said sure, why not. When it was his turn he sat up and pulled out the dozen armies he'd been hiding, and proceeded to win the game. Did I say anything? No. Did I ever let him pull that stunt on me again? Heck, no. When he twisted my arm to play backgammon with him for money and he ended up losing $75 the first night, did I offer to forgive the debt? Oh hells no, although in his defense he didn't ask me to and, after I relieved of of fifty more bucks the following night when he attempted to recoup his losses, he never offered to play me for money again.

We've already endured eight years of "It's your own fault, you were stupid enough to believe us" under the Bush regime. The Scott Walker affair demonstrated again, that repubs say what they please to get into office, then pursue completely different, unannounced agendas once they're in power. The Democrats need to press their advantage, mercilessly, if they hope to implement their programs. At least we're up front about what we want to do. The repubs cannot be allowed to regroup, to reframe their lies in a different format to achieve their unscrupulous goals. There is, for instance, a long battle ahead of us to undo the past twelve years of gerrymandering which is the only reason the repubs have held on to their House majority. There is no room any more for compromise. The repubs must be utterly destroyed before a new, clean conservative movement can rise from their ashes.

Pars republicanorum delenda est.
 
2012-11-10 06:31:29 PM  

vartian: Silly Jesus:

You obviously think it important for people to make informed decisions as to not suffer drastic negative consequences (getting people killed). Would you be in favor of voters having to demonstrate some modicum of intelligence / relevant knowledge prior to voting?

The voter test? Again? Give it the fark up. You aren't allowed to disenfranchise voters, and you aren't allowed to change the rules of the game because you arrogantly see yourself as more informed that the general populace.


The average American is likely to: not be able to name a single supreme court justice, not point out where countries we're at war with are on a world map, not be able to point out their own country on a world map, not be able to describe a single one of the ten amendments that guarantee many of their most basic rights, not know who any of their local, state or federal representatives are... this could go on and on.

For most people on Fark's politics tab, observing the blindingly obvious fact that we're more informed than average isn't "arrogant." It's just a statement of fact.

Most of us are also smart enough to realize that Churchill's remarks about "except for all the others that have been tried" are true also. So as much as we might whine about the vote of an idiot carrying as much weight as that of an informed person or fantasize about a world where you have to be informed to vote, we know where that leads.
 
2012-11-10 06:32:12 PM  
There doesn't seem to be much discussion as to where this "I don't accept yr facts bc they don't fit my beliefs" has come from.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you see this "l can tell whatever lies l like (and the sheep will take my word for it)" anywhere else in civilized world.

Does it go back to the Religious Right assault on Evo education, which employs anti-science and anti-intellectual arguments to bolster it's fake arguments ("Teach the Controversy!")

USA is one of few countries that doesn't have a national educational curriculum and allows local groups like Texas Board of Ed to control syllabus.

Election has shown the weakness of non-factual approach, but as the article said, a more skilful liar may have got through.

I would have thought it was worth teaching all kids reasoning skills and how science works, and fighting the religious bigots who are afraid of that.
 
2012-11-10 06:34:00 PM  

mjjt: USA is one of few countries that doesn't have a national educational curriculum and allows local groups like Texas Board of Ed to control syllabus.


That may be a good thing. I dont know about you, but I dont want someone from Texas to control what can or cannot be taught in my Maine schools.
 
2012-11-10 06:34:56 PM  

HighOnCraic: FTA: At the policy level, this is the GOP that denies climate change, that rejects Keynesian economics, and that identifies voter fraud where there is none. At the loony-tunes level, this is the GOP that has given us the birthers, websites purporting that Obama was lying about Osama bin Laden's death, and not one but two (failed) senatorial candidates who redefined rape in defiance of medical science and simple common sense. It's the GOP that demands the rewriting of history (and history textbooks), still denying that Barry Goldwater's opposition to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Richard Nixon's "southern strategy" transformed the party of Lincoln into a haven for racists. Such is the conservative version of history that when the website Right Wing News surveyed 43 popular conservative bloggers to determine the "worst figures in American history" two years ago, Jimmy Carter, Obama, and FDR led the tally, all well ahead of Benedict Arnold, Timothy McVeigh, and John Wilkes Booth.


WTF? I'm pretty much a Bernie Sanders-leaning liberal, but I would never rank a single GOP politician, not even W., as being as bad as those three.




Well you see there are 48 percent of the people who will vote for the Romney no matter what. There are 48 percent of the people who are with him...oh wait.


It is not 48% (48-49% is the popular vote Romney got, before someone hollers at me because Romney said 47%) that hate liberals in particular Obama and others, but it is a sizable portion of that group that certainly in the double digits. For about the last decade, they have been told that liberals are the greatest threat facing the nation and a sizable portion of them have bought this hook line and sinker.

It is sad really that at this point in politics we are able to draw lines as far as where people stand. It is really sad that as people we have no flexibility on our positions. We can blame the politicians in Washington for the gridlock and partisan bickering but the reality is that we the people share equal blame. It is not that our government failed, it is that we elect failures into government. A sizable chunk of this blame falls on our governmental system that strictly rejects outsiders, no third parties allowed.

The best thing that could happen right now is for the GOP to destroy itself completely. Not because I hate conservatives, but because I hate our two party system, and given the political landscape right now if the GOP were to shatter, it would give a few parties some more opportunities come the next couple election cycles, and a potential shift in how elections are run (unfortunately because people believe everything they hear this fighting would be between popular vote and electoral college. Rather than the middle ground that eliminates a significant majority of the problems our government faces, notably gerrymandering, disenfranchisement, a 2 party system, and only a few states mattering in election (currently swing state, in a popular vote more populous states). The system is pretty simple, electoral votes in states are decided based on the popular vote within a state, and parties assign candidates to the number of seats they have.)
 
2012-11-10 06:37:42 PM  

erik-k: vartian: Silly Jesus:

You obviously think it important for people to make informed decisions as to not suffer drastic negative consequences (getting people killed). Would you be in favor of voters having to demonstrate some modicum of intelligence / relevant knowledge prior to voting?

The voter test? Again? Give it the fark up. You aren't allowed to disenfranchise voters, and you aren't allowed to change the rules of the game because you arrogantly see yourself as more informed that the general populace.

The average American is likely to: not be able to name a single supreme court justice, not point out where countries we're at war with are on a world map, not be able to point out their own country on a world map, not be able to describe a single one of the ten amendments that guarantee many of their most basic rights, not know who any of their local, state or federal representatives are... this could go on and on.

For most people on Fark's politics tab, observing the blindingly obvious fact that we're more informed than average isn't "arrogant." It's just a statement of fact.

Most of us are also smart enough to realize that Churchill's remarks about "except for all the others that have been tried" are true also. So as much as we might whine about the vote of an idiot carrying as much weight as that of an informed person or fantasize about a world where you have to be informed to vote, we know where that leads.


Indeed, we already went through this with literacy tests in the South. It's funny how a lot of people who argue that the government can't do anything right will also argue that a voting test can be set up that will be free from abuse.
 
2012-11-10 06:38:36 PM  

erik-k: vartian: Silly Jesus:

You obviously think it important for people to make informed decisions as to not suffer drastic negative consequences (getting people killed). Would you be in favor of voters having to demonstrate some modicum of intelligence / relevant knowledge prior to voting?

The voter test? Again? Give it the fark up. You aren't allowed to disenfranchise voters, and you aren't allowed to change the rules of the game because you arrogantly see yourself as more informed that the general populace.

The average American is likely to: not be able to name a single supreme court justice, not point out where countries we're at war with are on a world map, not be able to point out their own country on a world map, not be able to describe a single one of the ten amendments that guarantee many of their most basic rights, not know who any of their local, state or federal representatives are... this could go on and on.

For most people on Fark's politics tab, observing the blindingly obvious fact that we're more informed than average isn't "arrogant." It's just a statement of fact.

Most of us are also smart enough to realize that Churchill's remarks about "except for all the others that have been tried" are true also. So as much as we might whine about the vote of an idiot carrying as much weight as that of an informed person or fantasize about a world where you have to be informed to vote, we know where that leads.



clapping.gif


I do think that we could keep it in check though. Go with something as simple as the already established U.S. Citizenship Test.
 
2012-11-10 06:39:41 PM  

bugontherug: Aldon: randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.

You keep hoping and wishing our President will screw up... sooner or later one of your Obama's Katrina! Obama-gate! accusations will really amount to something, then you can be happy about our country suffering.

/frankly I am amazed that Obama has not had a scandal in his first term, unlike every other President in my lifetime. It would be genius level amazing if he does the same on his second term.

You don't think Obama's plot to shove gun control down our throats by personally handing automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords so they'll terrorize the public causing them to cry out for protection constitutes a scandal?


Are you suggesting that Obama is working up a Number Six on the USA?

farm9.static.flickr.com
 
2012-11-10 06:39:54 PM  

KrispyKritter: Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape


Still waiting.
 
2012-11-10 06:40:55 PM  

cman: mjjt: USA is one of few countries that doesn't have a national educational curriculum and allows local groups like Texas Board of Ed to control syllabus.

That may be a good thing. I dont know about you, but I dont want someone from Texas to control what can or cannot be taught in my Maine schools.


No...you misread what he said. The Texas School Board already does decide your curriculum in Maine. They are the largest buyer of textbooks, so their edited version of the book is what the publisher prints for everyone.
 
2012-11-10 06:41:47 PM  

KrispyKritter: Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape


Allen West disagrees, in fact he's STILLLLLL WAITING!
 
2012-11-10 06:41:53 PM  

Aldon: There is something that all the Republicans seem to be missing from this last election....

1) They believed the election would be like 2010 and more voters would identify as Republicans.
2) They believed they were winning the independent vote so they couldn't loose.
3) They believe that 3 million Republican just didn't show up to vote.

The truth is that the only reason Romney won with independents and the turnout for self identified Republicans was so low was because: Those who identified themselves as Republicans in 2010 no longer identify as Republicans, instead they identify as independents but pretty much still vote Republican. So the truth was that Obama actually won the true independents.

/If Republicans don't realize the truth in the next couple of years, those ex-Republicans might actually be up for grabs.


Don't for that elusive beast, the "undecided voter". Romney got many of those votes because they were all either attention whores or Republicans too embarrassed to admit they were voting for Romney. After Denver, the latter types got a bit more emboldened.

But you're absolutely right--the GOP was utterly convinced they had locked up the independent vote. Add that to the 53% who weren't lazy, grubby welfare recipients, and they just couldn't even consider the possibility of losing. They had only one possible outcome in mind and skewed, ignored, or shouted down any other evidence to the contrary.
 
2012-11-10 06:42:10 PM  

yousaywut: 4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)


I see you've fallen for the usual creationist trap of thinking the "Theory of Evolution" means "theory" in the common useage of the word. It is not. It's a theory in the scientific method. A scientific theory isn't a guess. It's fact. A guess is a "hypothesis".

Scientific theory

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.
 
2012-11-10 06:42:22 PM  

yousaywut: namatad:
4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact


Sorry but that is incorrect.

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge.[3] This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.[5]

From: http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
 
2012-11-10 06:42:34 PM  

randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.


THIS IS WHAT VICTORIA JACKSON ACTUALLY BELIEVES.
 
2012-11-10 06:43:40 PM  
Also the iPhone browser sucks.
 
2012-11-10 06:43:45 PM  
I'm glad some of the more unhinged sort are coming back. More schadenfreude for me.
 
2012-11-10 06:43:57 PM  

yousaywut: 4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)


"The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word."
 
2012-11-10 06:43:57 PM  

yousaywut: 5: false Ask the kurds about that one. (whether they were still around at the time of the Iraq invasion is entirely different)


Iraqi Power and U.S. Security in the Middle East

Stephen C. Pelletiere, Douglas V. Johnson II and Leif R. Rosenberger, of the Strategic Studies Institute of the U.S. War College at Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
Excerpt, Chapter 5
U.S. SECURITY AND IRAQI POWER

Having looked at all of the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds -- in Turkey where they had gone for asylum -- failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

A War Crime Or an Act of War?
By Stephen C. Pelletiere
Published: January 31, 2003

(New York Times) I am in a position to know because, as the Central Intelligence Agency's senior political analyst on Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war, and as a professor at the Army War College from 1988 to 2000, I was privy to much of the classified material that flowed through Washington having to do with the Persian Gulf. In addition, I headed a 1991 Army investigation into how the Iraqis would fight a war against the United States; the classified version of the report went into great detail on the Halabja affair.

This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent -- that is, a cyanide-based gas -- which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.
 
2012-11-10 06:44:07 PM  

bartink: Silly Jesus: Idealistically, I still yearn for an informed and intelligent electorate making life and death decisions concerning me and my family.

Its not whether or not they are informed that worries me. Its the incapacity of most to accept new information that doesn't feel right to them, whether armed with lots of facts or few of them. There was a study that showed that people knew the most were actually least accommodating to changing their minds when shown they believed falsehoods.

Some of the most informed people are the most delusional. Look at Rove on election night.


Well educated people simply come up with more sophisticated rationalizations for their delusions.
 
2012-11-10 06:44:59 PM  

cman: mjjt: USA is one of few countries that doesn't have a national educational curriculum and allows local groups like Texas Board of Ed to control syllabus.

That may be a good thing. I dont know about you, but I dont want someone from Texas to control what can or cannot be taught in my Maine schools.


With a national educational curriculum, it is unlikely that Texas would have enough influence to rewrite history books for other states. The fact that no other state has gone so far off the deep end as Texas has indicates that the rest of the country would, as a group, vote down Texas' attempt to push their agenda on other states. That's kinda the whole point of a national educational system.

/Must . . . resist . . . urge to make joke about Maine failing to . . . teach about apostrophes. . .
 
2012-11-10 06:47:34 PM  

yousaywut: 4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)


Pig pile on yousay!

This always bugs me. "The theory of relativity is only a theory; therefore, I deny the existence of nuclear weapons." "The germ theory of disease is only a theory; therefore, I refuse to take antibiotics when I'm ill." "The theory of gravity is only a theory; therefore, I am floating away into outer space gooooddddbbbbyyyyyeeeee..."

Actually that last one I'd like to see.
 
2012-11-10 06:52:12 PM  

randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.


You exemplify this thread.

Pew study: Obama, Romney get nearly equal treatment from media. Equally negative.

Of course I fully expect you to claim the study itself is biased. Go ahead, I'll wait.
 
2012-11-10 06:52:39 PM  

clambam: yousaywut: 4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)


Pig pile on yousay!

This always bugs me. "The theory of relativity is only a theory; therefore, I deny the existence of nuclear weapons." "The germ theory of disease is only a theory; therefore, I refuse to take antibiotics when I'm ill." "The theory of gravity is only a theory; therefore, I am floating away into outer space gooooddddbbbbyyyyyeeeee..."

Actually that last one I'd like to see.


You know who else would like to see that>
 
2012-11-10 06:54:29 PM  
fta The rude jolt administered by the election does not mean that the GOP will now depart from its faith-based view of reality

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-10 06:54:57 PM  

fusillade762: randomjsa: A slicker liar could have won, and still might.

Somebody might want to tell him that Obama did win.

Of course, it's not only that Obama is a much bigger liar and distorter of reality, it's that the media doesn't call him on it because they're in the tank for him. If they're not helping him lie then they're actively working to give him a pass on everything he screws up.

You exemplify this thread.

Pew study: Obama, Romney get nearly equal treatment from media. Equally negative.

Of course I fully expect you to claim the study itself is biased. Go ahead, I'll wait.


Exactly.

Media doesnt care about pushing political positions. All they really care about is money, and ragging on people is very profitable.

Fox News and MSNBC are biased indeed, but for them, it is about marketing to specific demographics. The management of those networks really could give a shiat about a racist tea party member holding up a misspelled sign, or a rapist in the OWS camp. All they care about is putting stories on the television that people want to see.
 
2012-11-10 06:55:14 PM  

Cpl.D: yousaywut: 4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)

I see you've fallen for the usual creationist trap of thinking the "Theory of Evolution" means "theory" in the common useage of the word. It is not. It's a theory in the scientific method. A scientific theory isn't a guess. It's fact. A guess is a "hypothesis".

Scientific theory

Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative.


True enough but it is still a theory in the common use of the word as well. It is the best theory we have at the moment but there are certain questions that stop it from becoming fact. Such as irreducible complexity and of course missing links. (I am not denying evolution just saying it is not yet a fact). I think it may become a fact within our lifetime or be completely disproven and become another oops in scientific history.) Make no mistake I am not a creationist I am merely skeptical of calling an unproven theory a fact.
 
2012-11-10 06:55:53 PM  

Silly Jesus: Are the losers derided for believing in their team?


Yes.
 
2012-11-10 06:58:33 PM  

yousaywut: namatad: Silly Jesus: Would you be in favor of voters having to demonstrate some modicum of intelligence / relevant knowledge prior to voting?

sure (all the questions are true or false)
1) president obama was born in america
2) president obama is a christian
3) the universe is over 8000 years old
4) evolution is a fact. our understanding of its processes are theoretical
5) there were and are no weapons of mass destruction in iraq
6) 9/11 really happened

we dont even need to LET the voter know the right answer
if they answer false for 1 of the questions, their vote doesnt count
if they answer false to 2-5 of the questions, their vote wont count for the rest of their life
if they answer false to all 6 questions, they are taken out back and shot

TADA
problem solved

1: true
2: true
3: true
4: false which is why it's called evolutionary theory or the theory of evolution. (we don't know enough about the universe to call this a fact yet)
5: false Ask the kurds about that one. (whether they were still around at the time of the Iraq invasion is entirely different)
6: true

Just because your bias wants all of these to be true does not make it so. So you probably shouldn't ask your questions the way they were asked or people will not be able to vote without disconnecting from reality. Just saying we all have our political beliefs and facts are facts just as theories are theories. Theory of relativity fact or theory?

//just saying perception is reality and you are perceiving facts that are not.


looks like we've already identified somebody too stupid to vote this year, awesome test namatad
 
2012-11-10 06:59:49 PM  

jules_siegel: The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent -- that is, a cyanide-based gas -- which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time.


So the Iraqis did have WMD at one point in time per your quoted article. Thanks for making my point much appreciated.

//Does anyone deny that Iraq at one time had WMD's? The original question was poorly written for the answer that the tester required.
 
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