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(The New York Times)   Turns out no one knows why Manhattan's tunnels have not been protected from easily predicted waves. And it seems protection from floods is pretty easy too, and many other cities have done so   (nytimes.com) divider line 22
    More: Stupid, flood controls, Manhattan, catastrophic failure, floods, Hurricane Irene, engineering research  
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7015 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Nov 2012 at 8:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-11-10 08:41:49 AM  
4 votes:
The US has 3rd world infrastructure which is held together by luck, magical thinking and unicorn farts. Nothing new here.
2012-11-10 09:43:30 AM  
3 votes:
Because NYC has emphasized bridges over tunnels ever since Robert Moses first became Works Commissioner? The East Side tunnel they're building now is the first new underground train line since the Woodrow Wilson administration. I think you can infer Metro neglect in other ways from this. Job Creators drive; only proles use mass transit. Unfortunately, cities need both types of people, and even if everyone commuting to Manhattan was rich, they still couldn't physically accommodate all the cars.
2012-11-10 09:00:32 AM  
3 votes:

hasty ambush: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Because America needs more aircraft carriers!

Yes, because everybody knows New York lacks the ability to raise its own revenue (which it would never waste) to protect its own tunnels. The Feds must fund and therefore control everything.


It's not just a New York problem. Infrastructure in this nation has been neglected for decades. The levees in Louisiana, the I-35W bridge, we like to let these problems bite us in the ass. The only thing America actually seems to get proactive on is scaring off other country's far-lesser might. If only Northrop-Grumman would get into the domestic peacetime needs biz.
2012-11-10 08:38:49 AM  
2 votes:
Maybe mayor Billionberg could pry open his wallet and install some diesel powered flood pumps in the tunnels. Instead, you wait until after they're flooded then haul in the portable pumps to empty them. I gotta believe it's gonna be cheaper in the long run to keep the tunnels from flooding in the first place (especially considering it's saltwater that's gonna fark up pretty much anything it touches).
2012-11-10 08:31:21 AM  
2 votes:
Because everyone in Manhattan is too busy lining their ownn pockets to pay for public improvements for the common good.

Remember folks: greed is good.
2012-11-10 08:03:57 AM  
2 votes:
Because the water was higher than any time in recorded history?
2012-11-10 11:45:51 AM  
1 votes:

foo monkey: Article says it bled off 100 million gallons of flood water from Brooklyn and Battery Park. I wonder how much that helped above ground.


Negligibly, I expect, what with there being an effectively infinite supply of water supplying the flood. Incidentally, 100m US gallons spread over Manhattan Island would give a layer just over 4mm thick.
2012-11-10 10:26:46 AM  
1 votes:
What pisses me off about this is that the idea of "recovery" has taken a backseat to defense. No-one thinks about just rebuilding, repairing, or fixing things anymore. Some things just aren't cost-effective to defend against!

Accept the fact that the tunnels may flood. Make them easy to pump out and clean afterward -- it's a lot cheaper and easier from an engineering standpoint. For the once in a hundred years event, close the tunnels for the event, repair them as needed, and open them again.

As a side-benefit, if another kind of leak happens in the tunnel -- chemical spill, fuel spill, broken pipe, etc.. -- you're already prepared.
2012-11-10 09:52:09 AM  
1 votes:
BitwiseShift: The ground floor is just storage for all the alpine mountain climbing gear and yodeling trophies.

God DAMN that was funny. Full point.
2012-11-10 09:50:05 AM  
1 votes:

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: hasty ambush: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Because America needs more aircraft carriers!

Yes, because everybody knows New York lacks the ability to raise its own revenue (which it would never waste) to protect its own tunnels. The Feds must fund and therefore control everything.

It's not just a New York problem. Infrastructure in this nation has been neglected for decades. The levees in Louisiana, the I-35W bridge, we like to let these problems bite us in the ass. The only thing America actually seems to get proactive on is scaring off other country's far-lesser might. If only Northrop-Grumman would get into the domestic peacetime needs biz.


And as I posted the state where much of this infrastructure is located have the means to raise revenue to fix them. The feds are not and should not be the primary source of revenue for these things By the states doing it would already be more cost effective as you eliminate one layer of bureaucracy that would siphon off funds for administration and regulation.. You might make a case for the interstate highway system or even the Levees as they involve interstate commerce.

But even then a lot of Louisiana levee money was diverted for political reasons to other pork projects, (not building aircraft carriers.) . From 2001-2005 Louisiana received $1.9 billion for Army Corps of Engineers civil projects; California was second with less than $1.4 billion, Much of that Louisiana money was spent to try to keep low-lying New Orleans dry. But hundreds of millions of dollars went to unrelated water projects demanded by the state's congressional delegation. Link


A lot of so called transportation dollars are used for non-transportation purposes such as museums and "enhancements"


I would also point to a $800 billion economic stimulus package that was supposed to about infrastructure and "shovel ready jobs" but instead was used to fund things like socially aware puppet shows and heated swimming pools.

Obama called the bill "the largest new investment in our nation's infrastructure since Eisenhower built an interstate highway system in the 1950s." . Only $64 billion, or 8% of the total, went to roads, public transport, rail, bridges, aviation and wastewater systems.

IIRC A democrat came up with a much better plan. It was ,cheaper ($150 Billion)and really focused only on infrastructure but of course nobody listened .

But I repeat NY city and State have the means to raise the revenue to fix their own tunnels. I would even go so far as to suggest that they do not need to raise additional taxes but to spend the money they already take in more wisely. New York state takes in about $90 billion a year in revenue plus another $40-$50 billion in money from the feds. New York City takes in about $43 billion a year in revenue not counting federal money they might get..
2012-11-10 09:44:51 AM  
1 votes:

MBZ321: Hey, instead of going UNDER the water, how about you use this new-fangled invention called a BRIDGE.

[pelfind.com image 300x224]
/What a bridge may look like


Floodwater fills a tunnel, but can be removed.

Floodwater takes bridges miles downstream.
2012-11-10 09:36:25 AM  
1 votes:
It is cheaper to ask the feds for disaster relief, federal money, than actually build infrastructure for protection from disasters, state money. By funding disaster relief nearly 100%, the state governments are encouraged not to prepare.
2012-11-10 09:35:11 AM  
1 votes:

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: hasty ambush: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Because America needs more aircraft carriers!

Yes, because everybody knows New York lacks the ability to raise its own revenue (which it would never waste) to protect its own tunnels. The Feds must fund and therefore control everything.

It's not just a New York problem. Infrastructure in this nation has been neglected for decades. The levees in Louisiana, the I-35W bridge, we like to let these problems bite us in the ass. The only thing America actually seems to get proactive on is scaring off other country's far-lesser might. If only Northrop-Grumman would get into the domestic peacetime needs biz.


It's not just the levees. I can't find it, but there is a federal project 50 miles (I think) or so North of New Orleans that has been in continuous operation for about 50 years to keep diverting the Mississippi River to the East (here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_River_Control_Structure).

The I-35 bridge was discussed in another thread. It was incorrectly designed, but yes it was poorly maintained.

If only the government would have those "shovel ready" jobs that have been talked about for the last 4 years.
2012-11-10 09:19:52 AM  
1 votes:

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Because America needs more aircraft carriers!


It's not America's job to stop flooding in New York's tunnels, it's New York's job.
2012-11-10 09:18:26 AM  
1 votes:

PC LOAD LETTER: Because the water was higher than any time in recorded history?


Over in one. Probably the same reason they don't shield the subway from volcano damage. It took nearly a century for this to become an issue. The water pumps they had installed worked fine, but were installed before anybody on Fark was born.
2012-11-10 09:18:21 AM  
1 votes:
Because politicians and union employees can make more money fixing a flooded tunnel than preventing it from getting flooded in the first place.
2012-11-10 09:15:18 AM  
1 votes:

foo monkey: Article says it bled off 100 million gallons of flood water from Brooklyn and Battery Park. I wonder how much that helped above ground.

My office building on Water Street will be closed for months and likely condemned.


Only one architect in the universe has imagined what a structure elevated above the ground might look like. As you can see, all the utility wires are still on sticks above ground so they can blow over.

www.woohome.com 

Oh, wait. Here's a fancy Queenslander from Australia, so common it's named after the state.   The ground floor is just storage for all the alpine mountain climbing gear and yodeling trophies.

i563.photobucket.com
2012-11-10 08:49:42 AM  
1 votes:
Turns out no one knows? Did subby read the article?

"They just didn't want to spend the money."
2012-11-10 08:43:06 AM  
1 votes:
Article says it bled off 100 million gallons of flood water from Brooklyn and Battery Park. I wonder how much that helped above ground.

My office building on Water Street will be closed for months and likely condemned.
2012-11-10 08:39:02 AM  
1 votes:
Because it's more important to monitor and control the size of the citizens SuperGulps....
2012-11-10 08:35:41 AM  
1 votes:
You know you're doing it wrong when Alabama laughs at you.

www.southalabama.edu
2012-11-10 08:33:21 AM  
1 votes:

Dick Gozinya: Because everyone

politician in Manhattan is too busy lining their ownn pockets to pay for public improvements for the common good.

Remember folks: greed is good.

FTFY
 
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