I've read hundreds of medical articles and have published a few myself. I've never heard accusations of "sexism" following any finding of differences between men and women. I've heard plenty of criticisms of analyses that did _not_ take into account differences in demographic and comorbid factors. If you don't take gender into account in your analyses, you're much, much less likely to be taken seriously (if you're even lucky enough to get published). The fact that men and women are acknowledged to be different isn't limited to some isolated part of biology that the evil feminists have yet to squelch. Anyone (feminist, misogynist, . . . pretty much everyone but the Creationists & IDers) who does research in any medical field learns to adjust/control for/account for differences by age, race, sex, comorbidity status, etc.

The author is debating a strawman feminist, not a real person. Less interesting than watching Clint Eastwood debate a chair.

No one on the planet thinks that there are no differences between men and women. The entire point of the equal rights movement is that it isn't okay to treat half the population as less because of those differences. I'm getting real tired of people deliberately misunderstanding things.

*clicks link*

WTF is RealClearScience? Like RealClearPolitics?

*reads first lines*

Yep, just like RealClearPolitics.

*closes tab*

Why is a hack article from a political website on the Geek tab, exactly? Is it not bad enough that we shiat up the politics tab with this crap, you gotta put the derp here too now?

There exist common physiological distinctions between two groups therefore it is ok to judge group B on numerous other attributes that are not universal. Because I'm in group A.


Moron.

Boys have penises and girls have vaginas.

RoyBatty: Damnhippyfreak: About half way through the documentary, skimming the rest, and I think you're misrepresenting it so far. Is there a specific bit of the documentary that gave you the impression you hold? It's not apparent so far. 

Maybe you're conflating the idea put forward by some in the documentary that there is no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior with the idea that there are no differences whatsoever between the sexes? Even the guy who talks about no differences between male and female brains acknowledges physical differences.

Maybe it depends on what you think I am claiming.

I'm going by this:

RoyBatty: t3knomanser: RoyBatty: It depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

No they haven't. For example, no one has ever claimed that men can get pregnant. Except Danny Devito.

Seriously, I provided you a link of Norwegian scientists doing exactly that, please don't bother watching it, or responding to it, just insert some irrelevant whargarrbl.

You seem to be claiming in this prior quote that the link you provided showed Norwegian scientists claiming that there are no differences between the sexes, even so far as t3knomanser's statement about men getting pregnant. Is this not accurate?


RoyBatty: I was only trying to refute Chiad's point that No one on the planet thinks that there are no differences between men and women. The entire point of the equal rights movement is that it isn't okay to treat half the population as less because of those differences

Unfortunately, the documentary you posted (while interesting and thank you for sharing it) really doesn't refute that. They're talking about a specific subset of potential differences in relation to gender roles and neurobiology, and again, this does not mean no differences whatsoever.


RoyBatty: Yes, it is certainly true that everyone agrees there are X and Y chromosomes and they have a great deal of importance. It is not true that historically (or now) many feminist ideologues have not set forth a theory that apart from the most basic biological differences, there are no other differences between men and women. And it's clear that in the case of nature vs. nurture, that documentary shows many examples of that.

Again, is it possible that you accidentally conflated the idea put forward by some in the documentary that there is no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior with the idea that there are no differences whatsoever between the sexes? What you're saying here would seem to agree with what t3knomanser said as noting that there are basic biological differences (such as the immune response in TFA) and said differences are not somehow denied by "feminist ideologues". In short, what you're saying here would argue against TFA.


RoyBatty: Instead of arguing No True Scotsman, perhaps a better argument would acknowledge as I did that it depends on who and when you ask. it depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

Just as Chiad is getting real tired of people deliberately misunderstanding things., it's also tiring to come up against No True Scotsman arguments that fly in the face of known history.

In order to put forward a No True Scotsman fallacy, you would need to first find examples of someone saying "that there are no differences". This doesn't seem to be the case in the documentary you posted, and you yourself seem to contradict yourself in that you acknowledge that "feminist ideologues" recognize "basic biological differences". You haven't found a Scotsman in the first place, true or not.


All this aside, what you're saying here is internally inconsistent. Might I politely suggest that you accidentally made the same mistake as TFA: Since some "feminist ideologues" posit no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior, you accidentally overextended a dislike of this viewpoint towards a false impression of them also saying that there is no differences whatsoever between the sexes. TFA made this mistake of overextending this view to go so far as to cover immune response. It's understandable as a knee-jerk response, and we all do it sometimes, but I highly suggest you abandon this line of reasoning.

Myria: I wonder what this means for us transgender people. Does my body have female immune responses? If so, was that because of having a female brain structure, or because of the hormones I'm taking?

Myria, this is a fascinating question (well for me anyway, I'm an immunologist). It's a known fact that hormones affect the immune system so maybe taking female hormones could result in more reactive "feminine" immune response..but I don't actually know (I'm going to have to do a lit search on this now...damn you! ;)

As for brain structure, years ago when I took I neurobiology class, there was research that in gay men certain (very small) parts of the brain had a structure that was more similar to what was usually seen in women than in heterosexual men. Now this was a long time ago and I don't know if this has been debunked or if there has been any similar research into lesbians or transgender people. This kind of research is often stopped because of protests (gay people are concerned that is gives a medical reason for what's "wrong" with them, homophobes don't like a medical reason for what should be an "immoral lifestyle choice").

Unfortunately sex and gender issues are hot topics and can lead to big drama and bad science, neither of which are of any help to anyone.

/yes I meant to say sex AND gender
//sex = biological form (penis vs vagina)
///gender = sex you identify with (male vs female)

IrishFarmer:
The problem truly comes in when you realize that most feminists are the ones that are spewing nonsense. Not the minority.


Do you have anything at all that backs up that ridiculous assertion, or are you just spewing nonsense?

/data showing 50.1% or more please

Chiad: You can find a few people asserting nonsense anywhere. Calling those people Feminists is like calling bigfoot hunters zoologists.

The problem truly comes in when you realize that most feminists are the ones that are spewing nonsense. Not the minority.

RoyBatty: It depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

Here is an amusing, interesting Norwegian documentary that documents these assertions in Norwegian society today. It's 38 minutes and seeks to explain how in Norway, one of the most feminist oriented, egalitarian societies, old stereotypes regarding preferences and professions seem stronger than ever.

Brainwash: The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011


You can find a few people asserting nonsense anywhere. Calling those people Feminists is like calling bigfoot hunters zoologists.

tortilla burger: While correct, TFA is a solution looking for a problem. I don't think feminists honestly believe that there aren't any biological differences between men and women.

I think the misunderstanding begins with what is the age the feminist. When I was in college in the late '80s, the arguments I studied were mostly to remove any recognizable differences in reference to sex because we are all humans first. They were over-stating their argument to gain whatever political/philosophical ground they could gain. The younger, more modern feminists appear to believe they need to recognize the differences but not make one sex greater than the other. You still see a lot of older feminists who get into active debates on the community channels with younger ones over which philosophy is more important moving forward. It would appear that this argument was positioned to be placed in that particular philosophical arena.

This guy doesn't understand the distinctions between sex, gender, and cultural gender norms.

While correct, TFA is a solution looking for a problem. I don't think feminists honestly believe that there aren't any biological differences between men and women. It's a well known fact that men and women have different neurological responses to the same stimuli. Those neurological responses, while not absolutely determinate, drive a lot of the behavior differences between men and women.