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(Real Clear Science)   How do feminists explain immunology? Huh? How about it sweetcheeks   (realclearscience.com) divider line 25
    More: Interesting, immunology, social construction, feminists, Lawrence Summers, antiviral drugs  
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5996 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Nov 2012 at 1:12 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-09 01:26:33 PM  
4 votes:
I've read hundreds of medical articles and have published a few myself. I've never heard accusations of "sexism" following any finding of differences between men and women. I've heard plenty of criticisms of analyses that did _not_ take into account differences in demographic and comorbid factors. If you don't take gender into account in your analyses, you're much, much less likely to be taken seriously (if you're even lucky enough to get published). The fact that men and women are acknowledged to be different isn't limited to some isolated part of biology that the evil feminists have yet to squelch. Anyone (feminist, misogynist, . . . pretty much everyone but the Creationists & IDers) who does research in any medical field learns to adjust/control for/account for differences by age, race, sex, comorbidity status, etc.

The author is debating a strawman feminist, not a real person. Less interesting than watching Clint Eastwood debate a chair.
2012-11-09 01:19:26 PM  
4 votes:
No one on the planet thinks that there are no differences between men and women. The entire point of the equal rights movement is that it isn't okay to treat half the population as less because of those differences. I'm getting real tired of people deliberately misunderstanding things.
2012-11-09 01:40:48 PM  
3 votes:
*clicks link*

WTF is RealClearScience? Like RealClearPolitics?

*reads first lines*

Yep, just like RealClearPolitics.

*closes tab*
2012-11-09 01:14:23 PM  
3 votes:
Why is a hack article from a political website on the Geek tab, exactly? Is it not bad enough that we shiat up the politics tab with this crap, you gotta put the derp here too now?
2012-11-09 11:25:34 AM  
3 votes:
In certain circles, it is politically incorrect to suggest that men and women are different.

Oh, christ, you're really breaking out this strawman? And then bringing up the guy who basically tried to extend the much derided The Bell Curve to gender bias in engineering professions?

Hey, buddy, I know you've never seen a vagina nor touched a breast, but everybody else is quite aware that women are different than men in several important ways.
2012-11-09 03:54:09 PM  
2 votes:

Damnhippyfreak: On a side note, it's more of a argument from incredulity than an ad hominem ;)


I see this thread has been in good hands while I've been at work. I can't stay, but let me reiterate my core argument:

No one claims that there are no differences between the sexes, since it's patently obvious that there are. However, many people claim that the plasticity of the human brain means that the underlying biological differences do not justify making behavioral assumptions or predictions of future performance based on those biological differences.

To put it statistically: if you were to graph the standard deviation of some attribute of humanity, say height, you would see that the curves for both men and women would not fall along the same mean. However the intersection of those two curves would cover such a large majority of your population that it would be unwise to take the outliers as examples.

//Sorry, I've been doing a lot of statistics lately. I'm a programmer. WHY AM I DOING STATISTICS? Computers should do stats.
2012-11-09 01:52:53 PM  
2 votes:
There exist common physiological distinctions between two groups therefore it is ok to judge group B on numerous other attributes that are not universal. Because I'm in group A.


Moron.
2012-11-09 01:33:50 PM  
2 votes:
Boys have penises and girls have vaginas.
2012-11-10 04:18:56 AM  
1 votes:
As outwardly duck-like it may be, it still can't lay duck eggs. We can change the way we look or act, but we still can't change our genes.
2012-11-09 05:54:15 PM  
1 votes:
All(?) animals have behaviors that define roles within their species. Some are confined to a single sex and other are shared by both sexes. In human we blur this with our complex societies and penchant for utilizing learned behavior over instinct. But, that does not mean that the vestiges of our old animal roles do not lie just under the surface of our rational minds.
2012-11-09 04:56:57 PM  
1 votes:

Honest Bender: Dr Dreidel: Do we?

Well, we in the non-ignorant group do... I guess you can be willfully ignorant if you want but it really speaks poorly of you.


trans = across/beyond/on the opposite side
gender = gender

Someone born a man who now "lives life as a woman" has traveled "across genders". What's the difference in calling her a transgendered woman and calling him a transgendered man?

Her preference. Don't be a jerk and hide behind semantics.
2012-11-09 04:31:45 PM  
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: Oh feminists! You were once a much-needed avenue for important social justice reforms. Now you're just a pathetic self-parody who stagger around comically for my amusement!


Thanks for lumping us all together, dick.

PROTIP: If you think it's bullshiat that (for example) women make 74 cents to the man's dollar, you're a feminist. We're not all angry lesbians with armpit hair poking out from the torn-off sleeve of a flannel shirt. Not all of us have vaginas, even.
2012-11-09 03:32:36 PM  
1 votes:

draypresct: The author is debating a strawman feminist, not a real person. Less interesting than watching Clint Eastwood debate a chair.


My overall impression of this writer is that his entire viewpoint on "feminism" is based on Rush Limbaugh listening. He may as well have opened with "Angry shrews may disagree with this thinking man's astute conclusion, but who can hear them all the way up in their ivory towers?"

Jeez Louise, what a waste of a column!
2012-11-09 03:28:03 PM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: Damnhippyfreak: About half way through the documentary, skimming the rest, and I think you're misrepresenting it so far. Is there a specific bit of the documentary that gave you the impression you hold? It's not apparent so far. 

Maybe you're conflating the idea put forward by some in the documentary that there is no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior with the idea that there are no differences whatsoever between the sexes? Even the guy who talks about no differences between male and female brains acknowledges physical differences.

Maybe it depends on what you think I am claiming.


I'm going by this:

RoyBatty: t3knomanser: RoyBatty: It depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

No they haven't. For example, no one has ever claimed that men can get pregnant. Except Danny Devito.

Seriously, I provided you a link of Norwegian scientists doing exactly that, please don't bother watching it, or responding to it, just insert some irrelevant whargarrbl.


You seem to be claiming in this prior quote that the link you provided showed Norwegian scientists claiming that there are no differences between the sexes, even so far as t3knomanser's statement about men getting pregnant. Is this not accurate?


RoyBatty: I was only trying to refute Chiad's point that No one on the planet thinks that there are no differences between men and women. The entire point of the equal rights movement is that it isn't okay to treat half the population as less because of those differences


Unfortunately, the documentary you posted (while interesting and thank you for sharing it) really doesn't refute that. They're talking about a specific subset of potential differences in relation to gender roles and neurobiology, and again, this does not mean no differences whatsoever.


RoyBatty: Yes, it is certainly true that everyone agrees there are X and Y chromosomes and they have a great deal of importance. It is not true that historically (or now) many feminist ideologues have not set forth a theory that apart from the most basic biological differences, there are no other differences between men and women. And it's clear that in the case of nature vs. nurture, that documentary shows many examples of that.


Again, is it possible that you accidentally conflated the idea put forward by some in the documentary that there is no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior with the idea that there are no differences whatsoever between the sexes? What you're saying here would seem to agree with what t3knomanser said as noting that there are basic biological differences (such as the immune response in TFA) and said differences are not somehow denied by "feminist ideologues". In short, what you're saying here would argue against TFA.


RoyBatty: Instead of arguing No True Scotsman, perhaps a better argument would acknowledge as I did that it depends on who and when you ask. it depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

Just as Chiad is getting real tired of people deliberately misunderstanding things., it's also tiring to come up against No True Scotsman arguments that fly in the face of known history.


In order to put forward a No True Scotsman fallacy, you would need to first find examples of someone saying "that there are no differences". This doesn't seem to be the case in the documentary you posted, and you yourself seem to contradict yourself in that you acknowledge that "feminist ideologues" recognize "basic biological differences". You haven't found a Scotsman in the first place, true or not.


All this aside, what you're saying here is internally inconsistent. Might I politely suggest that you accidentally made the same mistake as TFA: Since some "feminist ideologues" posit no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior, you accidentally overextended a dislike of this viewpoint towards a false impression of them also saying that there is no differences whatsoever between the sexes. TFA made this mistake of overextending this view to go so far as to cover immune response. It's understandable as a knee-jerk response, and we all do it sometimes, but I highly suggest you abandon this line of reasoning.
2012-11-09 03:03:38 PM  
1 votes:

Myria: I wonder what this means for us transgender people. Does my body have female immune responses? If so, was that because of having a female brain structure, or because of the hormones I'm taking?


Myria, this is a fascinating question (well for me anyway, I'm an immunologist). It's a known fact that hormones affect the immune system so maybe taking female hormones could result in more reactive "feminine" immune response..but I don't actually know (I'm going to have to do a lit search on this now...damn you! ;)

As for brain structure, years ago when I took I neurobiology class, there was research that in gay men certain (very small) parts of the brain had a structure that was more similar to what was usually seen in women than in heterosexual men. Now this was a long time ago and I don't know if this has been debunked or if there has been any similar research into lesbians or transgender people. This kind of research is often stopped because of protests (gay people are concerned that is gives a medical reason for what's "wrong" with them, homophobes don't like a medical reason for what should be an "immoral lifestyle choice").

Unfortunately sex and gender issues are hot topics and can lead to big drama and bad science, neither of which are of any help to anyone.

/yes I meant to say sex AND gender
//sex = biological form (penis vs vagina)
///gender = sex you identify with (male vs female)
2012-11-09 02:42:35 PM  
1 votes:

IrishFarmer:
The problem truly comes in when you realize that most feminists are the ones that are spewing nonsense. Not the minority.



Do you have anything at all that backs up that ridiculous assertion, or are you just spewing nonsense?

/data showing 50.1% or more please
2012-11-09 02:40:38 PM  
1 votes:

Chiad: You can find a few people asserting nonsense anywhere. Calling those people Feminists is like calling bigfoot hunters zoologists.


The problem truly comes in when you realize that most feminists are the ones that are spewing nonsense. Not the minority.
2012-11-09 02:21:39 PM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: It depends on who is speaking, and when, but over the years many feminists, and feminist scholars, feminist ideology trained politicians have asserted exactly that there are no differences.

Here is an amusing, interesting Norwegian documentary that documents these assertions in Norwegian society today. It's 38 minutes and seeks to explain how in Norway, one of the most feminist oriented, egalitarian societies, old stereotypes regarding preferences and professions seem stronger than ever.

Brainwash: The Gender Equality Paradox - Documentary NRK - 2011



You can find a few people asserting nonsense anywhere. Calling those people Feminists is like calling bigfoot hunters zoologists.
2012-11-09 02:15:30 PM  
1 votes:

tortilla burger: While correct, TFA is a solution looking for a problem. I don't think feminists honestly believe that there aren't any biological differences between men and women.


I think the misunderstanding begins with what is the age the feminist. When I was in college in the late '80s, the arguments I studied were mostly to remove any recognizable differences in reference to sex because we are all humans first. They were over-stating their argument to gain whatever political/philosophical ground they could gain. The younger, more modern feminists appear to believe they need to recognize the differences but not make one sex greater than the other. You still see a lot of older feminists who get into active debates on the community channels with younger ones over which philosophy is more important moving forward. It would appear that this argument was positioned to be placed in that particular philosophical arena.
2012-11-09 02:07:01 PM  
1 votes:
Oh feminists! You were once a much-needed avenue for important social justice reforms. Now you're just a pathetic self-parody who stagger around comically for my amusement!
2012-11-09 01:55:20 PM  
1 votes:

RoyBatty: I provided you a link of Norwegian scientists doing exactly that,


Really, your link contains people making the claim that men can carry children to term? I can't watch it at work, but I very much don't believe you. In fact, I am going to Farky you as a liar, because you are.
2012-11-09 01:53:48 PM  
1 votes:

tortilla burger: drive a lot of the behavior differences between men and women.


The confounding issue with this is the open question of how much behavior is truly derived biologically. Obviously, everything has a biological basis. But while that may lay a foundation, when we look at different cultures, we see such wildly divergent approaches to establishing gender roles. Activities that are considered "feminine" in one society are considered "masculine" in another. The only thing that seems universal (and I'm certain that there are counter-examples out there) are that women play a greater role in child-rearing. This makes a certain evolutionary sense, since they're far more invested in the project.

Slightly changing subjects, one of the things we take as biologically determined is sexual orientation. And while, again, there's certainly a biological component, "being gay" is clearly a social role. In our society, if you suck a dude's dick in front of an audience, you're not just gay, but super gay. In the Moche civilization, you wouldn't be gay- you'd be a priest. And not in the Catholic way- fellatio was part of their religious rites.

In short: it's complex and multivariable and very non-linear.
2012-11-09 01:49:59 PM  
1 votes:
This guy doesn't understand the distinctions between sex, gender, and cultural gender norms.
2012-11-09 01:47:42 PM  
1 votes:
While correct, TFA is a solution looking for a problem. I don't think feminists honestly believe that there aren't any biological differences between men and women. It's a well known fact that men and women have different neurological responses to the same stimuli. Those neurological responses, while not absolutely determinate, drive a lot of the behavior differences between men and women.
2012-11-09 01:35:16 PM  
1 votes:
I wonder what this means for us transgender people. Does my body have female immune responses? If so, was that because of having a female brain structure, or because of the hormones I'm taking?
 
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