JericoPaladin: Here's a novel concept for many people:"Man" != "male""Woman" != "female"
Damnhippyfreak: On a side note, it's more of a argument from incredulity than an ad hominem ;)
phaseolus: JerkyMeat: ...meant to be stuffed full of dick.But almost certainly not your dick, with a personality like that.
Honest Bender: JericoPaladin: Here's a novel concept for many people:"Man" != "male""Woman" != "female"From Wiktionary:Nounman (plural men)An adult male human.Nounwoman (plural women)An adult female human.See, words have meanings. The word "man," when used as a noun, refers to a human male. Similarly, "woman" refers to a human female. Glad we cleared that up.
t3knomanser: Damnhippyfreak: On a side note, it's more of a argument from incredulity than an ad hominem ;)I see this thread has been in good hands while I've been at work. I can't stay, but let me reiterate my core argument:No one claims that there are no differences between the sexes, since it's patently obvious that there are. However, many people claim that the plasticity of the human brain means that the underlying biological differences do not justify making behavioral assumptions or predictions of future performance based on those biological differences.To put it statistically: if you were to graph the standard deviation of some attribute of humanity, say height, you would see that the curves for both men and women would not fall along the same mean. However the intersection of those two curves would cover such a large majority of your population that it would be unwise to take the outliers as examples.//Sorry, I've been doing a lot of statistics lately. I'm a programmer. WHY AM I DOING STATISTICS? Computers should do stats.
Almea Tarrant: Myria: I wonder what this means for us transgender people. Does my body have female immune responses? If so, was that because of having a female brain structure, or because of the hormones I'm taking?Myria, this is a fascinating question (well for me anyway, I'm an immunologist). It's a known fact that hormones affect the immune system so maybe taking female hormones could result in more reactive "feminine" immune response..but I don't actually know (I'm going to have to do a lit search on this now...damn you! ;)As for brain structure, years ago when I took I neurobiology class, there was research that in gay men certain (very small) parts of the brain had a structure that was more similar to what was usually seen in women than in heterosexual men. Now this was a long time ago and I don't know if this has been debunked or if there has been any similar research into lesbians or transgender people. This kind of research is often stopped because of protests (gay people are concerned that is gives a medical reason for what's "wrong" with them, homophobes don't like a medical reason for what should be an "immoral lifestyle choice").Unfortunately sex and gender issues are hot topics and can lead to big drama and bad science, neither of which are of any help to anyone./yes I meant to say sex AND gender//sex = biological form (penis vs vagina)///gender = sex you identify with (male vs female)
JericoPaladin: The rigor of language is that they mean different things to different people.
Damnhippyfreak: In order to put forward a No True Scotsman fallacy, you would need to first find examples of someone saying "that there are no differences". This doesn't seem to be the case in the documentary you posted, and you yourself seem to contradict yourself in that you acknowledge that "feminist ideologues" recognize "basic biological differences". You haven't found a Scotsman in the first place, true or not.All this aside, what you're saying here is internally inconsistent. Might I politely suggest that you accidentally made the same mistake as TFA: Since some "feminist ideologues" posit no biological basis for differences in cognition and behavior, you accidentally overextended a dislike of this viewpoint towards a false impression of them also saying that there is no differences whatsoever between the sexes. TFA made this mistake of overextending this view to go so far as to cover immune response. It's understandable as a knee-jerk response, and we all do it sometimes, but I highly suggest you abandon this line of reasoning.
hstein3: Some of the difference could be attributed to minor histocompability antigens. You see this play out in graft/transplant rejection and in miscarriage, for example.
WhippingBoy: Oh feminists! You were once a much-needed avenue for important social justice reforms. Now you're just a pathetic self-parody who stagger around comically for my amusement!
JericoPaladin: A biological male who lives life as a woman is a woman.
Honest Bender: JericoPaladin: A biological male who lives life as a woman is a woman.He's She's a transgendered woman. See, we already have a discrete term for that type of person.
Dr Dreidel: Do we?
RoyBatty: Well it is certainly true that if we insist that the statement "feminists say there is no difference between the sexes" must mean that feminists say there is no X or Y chromosome or any biological differences whatsoever, that indeed it would be difficult to find anyone on the planet who has said that.Regardless, we have a rich history of feminists that can recognize biological differences saying those differences don't matter at all. They say that wrt nature vs. nurture. They say that wrt employment (firefighting). They say that wrt the legal system.
Honest Bender: Dr Dreidel: Do we?Well, we in the non-ignorant group do... I guess you can be willfully ignorant if you want but it really speaks poorly of you.
Honest Bender: JericoPaladin: The rigor of language is that they mean different things to different people.Actually, the entire point of language is that words mean the same thing. That's what enables communication... If blooby purple sunday elbow, four alfalfa cold spring. See how that works?
draypresct: Quick note: I think your post mentioning firefighting and legal theory is a bit off-topic. The article that started this debate claimed to refute the 'feminists' who didn't recognize differences between the sexes with a reference to an article on immunology. Do you have a reference to feminists who claim that biological differences don't make any difference at all . . . in immunology? In nephrology? In cardiology? In (just about any)ology? Not claims of "I didn't get published because the feminist/evolutionist/whateverist conspiracy is shutting me down". Actual feminists who state that the biological differences between men and women don't make any difference in any particular aspect of medicine?
RoyBatty: Would it be accurate to paraphrase Cordelia Fine as saying, "wrt the brainz, there is no difference between men's and women's brainz?"
cefm: The stupid in that article is so strong it hurts.Nobody has ever claimed that medical treatment should be identical between men and women if their physiological differences merit different treatment. Nobody thinks men need pap smears or that women should check for testicular cancer.The question rather is "can men and women be equally good in the field of immunology?" and the answer is yes.
nmemkha: of our old animal roles
JohnnyC: nmemkha: of our old animal rolesGreat... here comes the part where men are supposedly angry warmongering rapemonsters who can only gain control of themselves by becoming feminists...
Chiad: No one on the planet thinks that there are no differences between men and women. The entire point of the equal rights movement is that it isn't okay to treat half the population as less because of those differences. I'm getting real tired of people deliberately misunderstanding things.
JerkyMeat: I submit the quote from TFA Ignoring the entire field of biology in dedication to the farkette who scoffed at my biology argument a few weeks ago in some thread, when I reminded the women of fark, no matter how well you do in business or how much education you have, that little pussy of yours was meant to be stuffed full of dick.Happy Friday!
Myria: I wonder what this means for us transgender people. Does my body have female immune responses? If so, was that because of having a female brain structure, or because of the hormones I'm taking?
mjjt: A lot of pointless huffing and puffing in the fark comments, all completely ignoring this vital piece of scientific researchThe intensity and prevalence of viral infections are typically higher in males, whereas disease outcome can be worse for females. Females mount higher innate and adaptive immune responses than males, which can result in faster clearance of viruses, but also contributes to increased development of immunopathology. In response to viral vaccines, females mount higher antibody responses and experience more adverse reactions than males. The efficacy of antiviral drugs at reducing viral load differs between the sexes, and the adverse reactions to antiviral drugs are typically greater in females than males. Several variables should be considered when evaluating male/female differences in responses to viral infection and treatment: these include hormones, genes, and gender-specific factors related to access to, and compliance with, treatment. Knowledge that the sexes differ in their responses to viruses and to treatments for viral diseases should influence the recommended course of action differently for males and females.which I intend to print out and laminate for next time l suffer the dread affliction of man flu and have to take to the couch with a generous application of medicinal fluids.
Heron: JerkyMeat: I submit the quote from TFA Ignoring the entire field of biology in dedication to the farkette who scoffed at my biology argument a few weeks ago in some thread, when I reminded the women of fark, no matter how well you do in business or how much education you have, that little pussy of yours was meant to be stuffed full of dick.Happy Friday!Your elegant social brain is meant to stop you from actually saying obnoxious drivel like this by reminding you that expressing such obvious disdain for your fellow humans will only ever be met with rage and hostility. Yet here you are; making an ass of yourself in public -in a completely different thread you submitted for that sole purpose even(!)- because you're too nebbish to let go of having your ass handed to you in an internet argument, and too much of a coward to actually confront your vanquisher with a retort. Seems like there's a lot of things we humans of all genders and identities do with our physical inheritance that doesn't jive with bland biological determinism, doesn't it?Oh, and Passive-Aggressive Friday to you!
t3knomanser: In certain circles, it is politically incorrect to suggest that men and women are different.Oh, christ, you're really breaking out this strawman? And then bringing up the guy who basically tried to extend the much derided The Bell Curve to gender bias in engineering professions?Hey, buddy, I know you've never seen a vagina nor touched a breast, but everybody else is quite aware that women are different than men in several important ways.
draypresct: strawman feminist
Honest Bender: If blooby purple sunday elbow, four alfalfa cold spring.
ReverendJasen: JericoPaladin: A biological male who lives life as a woman is a woman.No, he's not. He's a man in a dress. Or a man with his dick cut off. He dose not have ovaries, a uterus, or female hormones coursing through those hairy veins (at least not without needles).He may think like a woman, and act like a woman, but that's the extent of it.
JericoPaladin: Here's a novel concept for many people:"Man" != "male""Woman" != "female"This is the central problem with this debate. The words are not interchangeable. A biological male is not necessarily a man. A biological female is not necessarily a woman.It is willful myopia to say that differing genetics do not account for biological differences. I'm not sure anyone can argue that. What the argument typically entails is that we easily ascribe to unfounded biological differences what can often be ascribed to social or environmental factors... or at the very least, we don't know certain causes but like to posit that "it's just the difference between men and women!" and not "it's the difference we force between men and women".When a feminist commenter uses the word "woman", it generally does refer to a female person, just statistically, but the concept she invokes is that of gender, not sex. When an opponent of that position is speaking, they use "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and confound the ideas of gender and sex. Obviously if you're not speaking the same language, you're going to argue nonsensically. The article makes no distinction between gender and sex, so it's arguing with a straw feminist that also makes no such distinction, despite the fact that the distinction is central to the debate.Please, please, PLEASE create medical solutions based on my Y chromosome. I'm all for it. Male and female brains may have the tendency to have particular innate differences... but just like it may once have been stated, with no twing of humor, that housekeeping is "in a woman's blood", more subtly sexist commentary may be made today about neurological differences between sexes that don't actually exist. The contention is not that you can't tell the difference between males and females; it's that you should hold your horses before generalizing behaviors based on those differences.We used to talk about behavioral differences between races, even going so far as to cal ...
aerojockey: Ah yes, it's that one thread where that one guy, who tries to claim that everyone on the other side holds a certain ridiculous view, is arguing with that other guy, who tries to claim that no one on that holds that ridiculous view.
t3knomanser: Hey, buddy, I know you've never seen a vagina nor touched a breast, but everybody else is quite aware that women are different than men in several important ways
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