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(The Daily Caller)   Remember that total bullshiat story about how NJ unions were supposedly turning away out-of-state nonunion utility workers who wanted to fix things up after Sandy? It's bullshiat in Jersey, all right - but not in New York. There's a paper trail   (dailycaller.com) divider line 83
    More: Followup, jersey, New York, Long Island, International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Empire State, Sunshine State, unions, New Jersey  
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9955 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Nov 2012 at 10:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



83 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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Archived thread
 
2012-11-06 09:15:35 AM
Look, just get back to us when you get your story straight...
 
2012-11-06 09:26:42 AM
If the first time you reported this story turned out to be completely fabricated, why should I believe you when you report this story again?
 
2012-11-06 09:35:02 AM
So the union backed off. Even they recognized that if there's shaking-down to be done, the state legislature gets to be first in line.
 
2012-11-06 10:41:55 AM
Everyone in Long Island is in the mafia.
 
2012-11-06 10:42:23 AM
I don't see where they're turning anyone away.
 
2012-11-06 10:43:05 AM
why should i believe anything from cocksucker carlson's online rag?
 
2012-11-06 10:44:43 AM
Well there it is... the IBEW went too far. And then they went back on it, figuring that the shoddy work done by the low-wage guys will have to be redone.

I guess I'll vote "no" on unionization at my electrician shop, and then vote yes later.
 
2012-11-06 10:44:46 AM
man has a bowtie

bowties cannot tell a lie
 
2012-11-06 10:51:02 AM
So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.
 
2012-11-06 10:52:04 AM

BalugaJoe: Everyone in Long Island is in the mafia.


Not true. There are also Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, and Martha Stewart when she's in the Hamptons.
 
2012-11-06 10:52:34 AM
Are the people on this page saying unions don't actually do this? Methinks they have never had any exposure to unions...
 
2012-11-06 10:52:57 AM
I work in insurance talking with a lot of small time contractors. Don't generally deal with unions, but from the people I've dealt with I bet I can tell you how this happened, and it's not some bullshiat omg unions are evil thing. There's a lot of companies who chase the storms, and since they have the manpower, tools, and experience to deal with disaster relief, they get hired. Unfortunately, there's enough of them nowadays that a lot of the local guys are getting less or none of the recovery work, and it's creating a lot of bad blood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if an organized collection of local workers tried to force their 'share' of the work. It's a disaster, their home and neighborhood is farked, fixing it is within their job description, and the money instead of going to them and helping them get back on their feet is going out of state. I don't know which method is actually better for disaster recovery, I can personally understand local governments and associations giving the contracts to people who specialize in that sort of work, but for instance if you're a tree trimmer, ain't no one getting their hedges manicured right now and there is a whole lot of work clearing limbs and felling dead trees. Sucks to be benched while some out of towner is taking your lunch.
 
2012-11-06 10:53:05 AM
Farking unions...great and needed 100 years ago, now sort of like carriage makers, payphone operators, and film developers. The time may have passed
 
2012-11-06 10:53:22 AM
factoryconnection:
Well there it is... the IBEW went too far. And then they went back on it,

...after they got caught.
 
2012-11-06 10:53:43 AM
Elections have consequenses. Reap what you sow NY'ers.
 
2012-11-06 10:54:32 AM

factoryconnection: Well there it is... the IBEW went too far. And then they went back on it, figuring that the shoddy work done by the low-wage guys will have to be redone.

I guess I'll vote "no" on unionization at my electrician shop, and then vote yes later.


Yeah its not like crews who get experience with large amounts of hurricane damage EVERY YEAR would have any experience relevant to Long Island's current troubles.
 
2012-11-06 10:55:30 AM
Oh, I'm quite afraid that the unions will look like scumbags when your friends arrive.

/ unions served a point once; when it became more about the union then the individual workers in the union; that is when, to me, they lost any good will they had gained.
 
2012-11-06 10:55:35 AM

RexTalionis: If the first time you reported this story turned out to be completely fabricated, why should I believe you when you report this story again?

 
2012-11-06 10:57:21 AM

LowbrowDeluxe: I work in insurance talking with a lot of small time contractors. Don't generally deal with unions, but from the people I've dealt with I bet I can tell you how this happened, and it's not some bullshiat omg unions are evil thing. There's a lot of companies who chase the storms, and since they have the manpower, tools, and experience to deal with disaster relief, they get hired. Unfortunately, there's enough of them nowadays that a lot of the local guys are getting less or none of the recovery work, and it's creating a lot of bad blood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if an organized collection of local workers tried to force their 'share' of the work. It's a disaster, their home and neighborhood is farked, fixing it is within their job description, and the money instead of going to them and helping them get back on their feet is going out of state. I don't know which method is actually better for disaster recovery, I can personally understand local governments and associations giving the contracts to people who specialize in that sort of work, but for instance if you're a tree trimmer, ain't no one getting their hedges manicured right now and there is a whole lot of work clearing limbs and felling dead trees. Sucks to be benched while some out of towner is taking your lunch.


That and you just don't let every single work crew who decides to show up go to work on your electrical equipment... No matter how wide spread a disaster is, there's an upper limit on the number of crews they're going to want to be working at once just from a logistical and management position alone, much less questions over pay rates and qualifications.
 
2012-11-06 11:02:33 AM
I said it in the last thread when it turned out to be misinformation. The real problem for unions is everyone is willing to believe stories like this apparently true and factual one.

Anyone who has had to deal with unions knows how irrational and corrupt they can be. The die has been cast, and ironically enough for that phrase, it was union work that destroyed their formerly glorious reputations.

If unions want to regain their respect and clout they have decades of housecleaning and refocusing to do. Until then they're rarely more than obstructionists lining the pockets of their leadership at the expense of the union brother masses. Just like every other Communist organization.
 
2012-11-06 11:03:35 AM

super_grass: But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?


Are you insinuating that the linemen out there should take a pay cut to clean up this mess?
 
2012-11-06 11:03:54 AM

BalugaJoe: Everyone in Long Island is in the mafia.


We prefer the term organized activity, thank you.

And I got nothing here. I'm Long Island, I'm union, and I'm just farking disgusted by the idea. I don't know if it's true or not because I'm CSEA and not IBEW, but I can't begin to imagine anyone... yeah I really got nothing.

Anyone turning anybody away needs to walk down my motherfarking block into ground zero of this shiatstorm and watch people throwing out their entire farking lives. See how fast your union dues matter then, dipshiat.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-06 11:09:44 AM
So if it doesn't work the first time, just refurbish it again and try again?
 
2012-11-06 11:13:02 AM

BooBoo23: super_grass: But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Are you insinuating that the linemen out there should take a pay cut to clean up this mess?


he's saying he's against people making money because he's a communist.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-06 11:14:39 AM

angryjd: Are the people on this page saying unions don't actually do this? Methinks they have never had any exposure to unions...


Or maybe your only idea of unions comes from wing-nut blogs? It's kind of a stupid claim considering that the workers are there temporarily and there is no chance of union workers being laid off due to lack of work. So, it's an implausible and stupid claim.
 
2012-11-06 11:15:10 AM
Another thing people should realize is that when out of staters come in to help things like this, they're not doing it as employees. They're doing it as independent contractors and they end up costing way, way more than the regular workers since the out of staters have the power companies over a barrel.

That happened here after Snowmageddon a couple of years ago. There weren't enough guys to fix all the damage quick enough, so a bunch of people came in from out of state and ended up charging more for their wages than the regular employees.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-06 11:15:49 AM

Aarontology: BooBoo23: super_grass: But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Are you insinuating that the linemen out there should take a pay cut to clean up this mess?

he's saying he's against people making money because he's a communist.


Only job creators should have money. People who actually produce or fix things should be grateful they have a job. They don't need money too.
 
2012-11-06 11:16:04 AM

BooBoo23: super_grass: But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Are you insinuating that the linemen out there should take a pay cut to clean up this mess?


No, no, he's just saying they should take a pay cut if they want to get the work instead of the storm chaser with an RV full of day laborers who will do it for less. That's how the invisible hand of the free market works. After all, it's just a natural disaster there's no way it's also affecting the local economy and disrupting their regular work.
 
2012-11-06 11:17:18 AM

vpb: Only job creators should have money. People who actually produce or fix things should be grateful they have a job. They don't need money too.


He also apparently doesn't understand the difference between "price gouging" and "regular prices"
 
2012-11-06 11:18:25 AM

Aarontology: he's saying he's against people making money because he's a communist.


And that's fine. He can drop his rates at the truck stop men's room if he wants to, but I'm not sure that asking the linemen to take a pay cut right now is such a good idea.
 
2012-11-06 11:21:14 AM

BooBoo23: And that's fine. He can drop his rates at the truck stop men's room if he wants to, but I'm not sure that asking the linemen to take a pay cut right now is such a good idea.


Yeah, I'm really not sure what the point of that is either.

There's a reason linesman make good money. Because one slip up can kill them, their crew, and cause a lot of property damage. All while, (at least in this case) working ridiculous hours to ensure the power comes back on.

Electricity isn't like plumbing where someone who doesn't really know what they're doing can kind of muddle through. You want people who know exactly what they're doing, and you want them to be well paid to attract top talent

It's like people forget how capitalism works sometimes.
 
2012-11-06 11:21:42 AM

super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.


Goods vs services.

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one
 
2012-11-06 11:22:45 AM
So, those crews from FL, GA, AL, SC, NC, etc. who go to NJ or NY, - just how much higher a wage do you think they are probably receiving (inclusive of overtime, etc.) than they would receive if they were working in their home states? (My guess is that they will receive a salary at least 25%-50% greater than they would receive doing the same work back in Biloxi, Greensboro or Tallahassee.)

Now, who spent the time, money and effort to negotiate those higher wages? The local NY/NJ unions did. So why is it so outrageous for them to at least seek to recoup some of those costs from what amount to "free rider" outside, non-union types who are all to happy to avail themselves of that much higher wage?

You think those crews are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? They are doing it because they know they will be cashing in with a much higher paycheck (due primarily to the difference in the prevailing wages between the two regions). Again, I just don't see what is so outrageous about the local unions trying to recover a small fraction of the cost they incurred in securing those higher prevailing wages in the first place.
 
2012-11-06 11:30:24 AM

King Something: super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.

Goods vs services.

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one


Paying people more money doesn't result in better quality. I supervised six union electricians and eight union mechanics and let me tell you they weren't equal in skillsets. A few I couldn't trust to fix a ham sandwich. And these guys were all making $34 an hour plus bennies.
 
2012-11-06 11:35:51 AM

King Something: super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.

Goods vs services.

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one


You're assuming that unions are consumer protection organizations. They are not, their purpose is to secure a good wage for their members. Being a union member is not the same as being experienced, licensed, and bonded.
 
2012-11-06 11:38:01 AM
Protectionism? In my union?

I don't understand why something like this could persist...unions have such an opposite reputation when it comes to putting the job ahead of their own interests.
 
2012-11-06 11:39:03 AM

NowhereMon: Look, just get back to us when you get your story straight...


That.
 
2012-11-06 11:39:45 AM

LowbrowDeluxe


I work in insurance talking with a lot of small time contractors. Don't generally deal with unions, but from the people I've dealt with I bet I can tell you how this happened, and it's not some bullshiat omg unions are evil thing. There's a lot of companies who chase the storms, and since they have the manpower, tools, and experience to deal with disaster relief, they get hired. Unfortunately, there's enough of them nowadays that a lot of the local guys are getting less or none of the recovery work, and it's creating a lot of bad blood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if an organized collection of local workers tried to force their 'share' of the work. It's a disaster, their home and neighborhood is farked, fixing it is within their job description, and the money instead of going to them and helping them get back on their feet is going out of state. I don't know which method is actually better for disaster recovery, I can personally understand local governments and associations giving the contracts to people who specialize in that sort of work, but for instance if you're a tree trimmer, ain't no one getting their hedges manicured right now and there is a whole lot of work clearing limbs and felling dead trees. Sucks to be benched while some out of towner is taking your lunch.


True, but (and you alluded to this, so we're agreeing) from a recovery perspective it probably makes more sense to hire the larger firms that have more of everything and can cover more ground than it does to hire a slew of individual local guys just because they're local.
 
2012-11-06 12:06:38 PM

Aarontology: Another thing people should realize is that when out of staters come in to help things like this, they're not doing it as employees. They're doing it as independent contractors and they end up costing way, way more than the regular workers since the out of staters have the power companies over a barrel.

That happened here after Snowmageddon a couple of years ago. There weren't enough guys to fix all the damage quick enough, so a bunch of people came in from out of state and ended up charging more for their wages than the regular employees.


You mean the people who have to travel across state lines to the job site, and don't get to eat or sleep at home are getting paid more? That's terrible.
 
2012-11-06 12:09:56 PM

super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.



Okay, so fuel is sold at a prevailing cost, with a deviation of around 4% in a several hundred square mile area. A storm hits and knocks out power to a bunch of gas stations. Only one station still has power. They're still buying tankers at wholesale prevailing cost. But then they jack the price to the consumer up to 20%, above retail price since the people have no where else to go. That's gouging.

The linesmen that come up from Florida are earning prevailing wage while in New York. As in, that's already what the labor in New York costs. They're not increasing the price of labor because of the storm. That's not gouging, in fact it's the exact opposite.

They're not turning anyone away, they're saying that any non-member coming in that benefits from the union's negotiation of wages has to pay dues on wages earned. If a linesmen from Florida is so anti-union that he won't pay 1% to the IBEW for the pay bump, he should just stay home. If the Floridian utilities are so anti-union that they refuse to withhold the 1% as required by contract, they can refuse the big emergency dollars from the local utility.

No one is doing this because they want to "fix the place up." The utilities out West and down South are sending workers because the local utilities in the devastated areas are paying big, big bucks for extra help. The linesmen are coming up because they're making big money on overtime for this.
 
2012-11-06 12:10:54 PM

muck4doo: You mean the people who have to travel across state lines to the job site, and don't get to eat or sleep at home are getting paid more? That's terrible.


Seeing as how the original post was that I was responding to was biatching and moaning about how bad it is that the regular guys aren't facing a pay cut, hiring out of staters at a higher cost is counter productive towards the goal of cost reduction.

So yes. From that perspective, it is terrible. Especially considering the hours a lot of the regular guys are working which precludes them from eating or sleeping at home as well.
 
2012-11-06 12:31:33 PM

fickenchucker: The die has been cast, and ironically enough for that phrase, it was union work that destroyed their formerly glorious reputations.


When have unions ever been highly regarded by the majority or by conservatives? For decades they were treated practically as communists. Heck, they still are.
 
2012-11-06 12:35:37 PM

Enigmamf: fickenchucker: The die has been cast, and ironically enough for that phrase, it was union work that destroyed their formerly glorious reputations.

When have unions ever been highly regarded by the majority or by conservatives? For decades they were treated practically as communists. Heck, they still are.


shoe fits and all that
 
2012-11-06 12:41:17 PM

super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.


Letter was sent Monday before the storm actually hit. After storm hit and damage was known they recanted. Its hard to know if this letter was even related to the storm, or if it was a simply a end of the month form letter send every month.
 
2012-11-06 12:43:52 PM

Enigmamf: fickenchucker: The die has been cast, and ironically enough for that phrase, it was union work that destroyed their formerly glorious reputations.

When have unions ever been highly regarded by the majority or by conservatives? For decades they were treated practically as communists. Heck, they still are.



Unions grew from the need to push back against corporate abuses. And for many years post-"The Jungle", there was a decently positive national opinion of unions. But then they won the basics we all enjoy, like a shorter work week, health insurance, etc. and realized their only reason for existence was to obstruct the advancement of technology. It went downhill over the course of my lifetime, to the point no-one really cares about unions anymore.

Unions have themselves to blame for the widely-publicized links to the mafia, featherbedding, and insane protections of bad employees based on seniority, rather than skill level.
 
2012-11-06 12:51:45 PM

fickenchucker: Enigmamf: fickenchucker: The die has been cast, and ironically enough for that phrase, it was union work that destroyed their formerly glorious reputations.

When have unions ever been highly regarded by the majority or by conservatives? For decades they were treated practically as communists. Heck, they still are.


Unions grew from the need to push back against corporate abuses. And for many years post-"The Jungle", there was a decently positive national opinion of unions. But then they won the basics we all enjoy, like a shorter work week, health insurance, etc. and realized their only reason for existence was to obstruct the advancement of technology. It went downhill over the course of my lifetime, to the point no-one really cares about unions anymore.

Unions have themselves to blame for the widely-publicized links to the mafia, featherbedding, and insane protections of bad employees based on seniority, rather than skill level.


Where you find large degrees of influence, you also find large degrees of abuse.

That's the price of fighting fire with fire, I'm afraid.
 
2012-11-06 12:53:19 PM

Gulper Eel: BalugaJoe: Everyone in Long Island is in the mafia.

Not true. There are also Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings, and Martha Stewart when she's in the Hamptons.


These groups all adore this guy:

www.movieleatherjacket.com
 
2012-11-06 12:53:45 PM
But in New York, no government official has stepped in to ensure that utility crews from other states won't have to show their union membership cards before going to work

So Governor Cuomo has his lips sucking union cock as always.

www.sunrunhome.com

Looks like he's practicing for a little bukkake 2 cock action.
 
2012-11-06 12:55:47 PM
And I can send a letter to Santa Claus demanding a hot-oil massage froma circa 1970 Raquelle Welch, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

How exactly would this have been enforced? The out-of state crews sign up with the utility, and the utility gives them orders and pays their invoices - the IBEW is not involved. They're free to take it up with the utility itself, but their letters aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
 
2012-11-06 12:57:15 PM

cefm: And I can send a letter to Santa Claus demanding a hot-oil massage froma circa 1970 Raquelle Welch, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

How exactly would this have been enforced? The out-of state crews sign up with the utility, and the utility gives them orders and pays their invoices - the IBEW is not involved. They're free to take it up with the utility itself, but their letters aren't worth the paper they're printed on.


And it would have worked too!

If not for you meddling kids! And that dog!
 
2012-11-06 12:58:52 PM
This should be covered by state and federal prevailing wage laws.....

Unions outlived their usefullness when being old and on the job longer is more important than being skilled......thats why bright and motivated young teachers get fired.
 
2012-11-06 12:59:10 PM

MindStalker: Letter was sent Monday before the storm actually hit. After storm hit and damage was known they recanted. Its hard to know if this letter was even related to the storm, or if it was a simply a end of the month form letter send every month.


Keep farking that chicken.
 
2012-11-06 01:00:17 PM

fickenchucker: And for many years post-"The Jungle", there was a decently positive national opinion of unions. But then they won the basics we all enjoy, like a shorter work week, health insurance, etc. and realized their only reason for existence was to obstruct the advancement of technology.


They also served to obstruct integration.
 
2012-11-06 01:00:34 PM

Aarontology: That happened here after Snowmageddon a couple of years ago. There weren't enough guys to fix all the damage quick enough, so a bunch of people came in from out of state and ended up charging more for their wages than the regular employees.


Supply, meet demand.
Demand, meet supply.
 
2012-11-06 01:02:44 PM

cefm: How exactly would this have been enforced? The out-of state crews sign up with the utility, and the utility gives them orders and pays their invoices - the IBEW is not involved. They're free to take it up with the utility itself, but their letters aren't worth the paper they're printed on


IBEW probably has a exclusive agreement with the Utilities so in order to work in their areas you have to have an agreement with IBEW. They waive these agreements in extreme emergencies. As of Monday when this letter was sent, the storm hadn't caused any damage yet and the emergency wasn't yet determined. Had the storm caused minor damage this agreement would have been in effect as it normally is.
 
2012-11-06 01:03:12 PM

Broktun: Aarontology: That happened here after Snowmageddon a couple of years ago. There weren't enough guys to fix all the damage quick enough, so a bunch of people came in from out of state and ended up charging more for their wages than the regular employees.

Supply, meet demand.
Demand, meet supply.


Supply, meet Homer's All-Purpose Bucket.

ww1.hdnux.com
 
2012-11-06 01:19:21 PM

sprawl15: man has a bowtie

bowties cannot tell a lie


www.theawl.com
 
2012-11-06 01:33:03 PM

Aarontology: Another thing people should realize is that when out of staters come in to help things like this, they're not doing it as employees. They're doing it as independent contractors and they end up costing way, way more than the regular workers since the out of staters have the power companies over a barrel.

That happened here after Snowmageddon a couple of years ago. There weren't enough guys to fix all the damage quick enough, so a bunch of people came in from out of state and ended up charging more for their wages than the regular employees.


What's more likely is that the electric companies are contracting with each other to provide the labor.

Still, importing workers like this gets EXPENSIVE. You generally have to pay a guy more to have him work in an area remote from his home - per diem(IE cost of hotel, hotel food), overtime, etc...

Plus, you have to remember that wage is only a fraction of the cost of an employee - what about his healthcare, payroll taxes, insurance, etc...?

I'll note that I don't know if Florida utility companies actually bothers to adjust it's workers' pay to 'prevailing wage' of the local area up in NY, or it it's just covered in a displacement/overtime/hazard type bonus amount.
 
2012-11-06 01:35:36 PM

SkunkWerks



img853.imageshack.us


Made by Igor Jakovsky in yesterday's "One of the five billion New Yorkers who drove to Connecticut to fill up buckets with gasoline faces misdemeanor charges of gross stupidity" thread.
 
2012-11-06 01:50:48 PM

King Something: super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.

Goods vs services.

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one


I think it's important that each consumer be allowed to decide which one they use.
 
2012-11-06 02:14:33 PM

This text is now purple: fickenchucker: And for many years post-"The Jungle", there was a decently positive national opinion of unions. But then they won the basics we all enjoy, like a shorter work week, health insurance, etc. and realized their only reason for existence was to obstruct the advancement of technology.

They also served to obstruct integration.


I don't know about that. At least my gramps did it right back in the '40s and '50s. When blacks were recruited to come up from the South in order to undercut the Iowa slaughterhouse union he was organizing, he and his guys recruited them into the union. His angle was simply "Hey, if you want be slaves go right ahead. But if you want to be paid like a man, join us and don't cross the picket lines."

When he died he had every hue of the human species at the funeral.

/Although, shortly before he passed away after retiring, he also admitted the union he started had gone into obstruction mode and had better watch out for backlash. He was a smart guy.
 
2012-11-06 02:42:38 PM
Oh, for the love of ... It is just a form letter intended for local utility companies. It was probably sent to the Florida municipal electric association either in error or as a matter of record. So another made up BS story.
 
2012-11-06 02:43:52 PM
Unions had a time and place; now is not the time and the US is not the place.

^ not politically motivated ^
 
2012-11-06 02:45:35 PM

JohnCarter: Farking unions...great and needed 100 years ago, now sort of like carriage makers, payphone operators, and film developers. The time may have passed


This.
 
2012-11-06 02:48:35 PM

Aarontology: muck4doo: You mean the people who have to travel across state lines to the job site, and don't get to eat or sleep at home are getting paid more? That's terrible.

Seeing as how the original post was that I was responding to was biatching and moaning about how bad it is that the regular guys aren't facing a pay cut, hiring out of staters at a higher cost is counter productive towards the goal of cost reduction.

So yes. From that perspective, it is terrible. Especially considering the hours a lot of the regular guys are working which precludes them from eating or sleeping at home as well.


And I'm sure they are being paid overtime. Should the customers who pay the electric bills just sit waiting for only those local workers to get to them when they feel like it or should they expect some out of state help when they can really use it.

Ain't monopolies and unions grand?
 
2012-11-06 02:52:32 PM

RexTalionis: If the first time you reported this story turned out to be completely fabricated, why should I believe you when you report this story again?


Because this time he paid the guy who said it would be a real shame if something was to happen to his story.
 
2012-11-06 03:01:38 PM

lawboy87: So, those crews from FL, GA, AL, SC, NC, etc. who go to NJ or NY, - just how much higher a wage do you think they are probably receiving (inclusive of overtime, etc.) than they would receive if they were working in their home states? (My guess is that they will receive a salary at least 25%-50% greater than they would receive doing the same work back in Biloxi, Greensboro or Tallahassee.)


My guess is that their employer, back home, pays their employees. The NY unions have nothing to do with it, as these employees are working under the terms which they agreed to with their employer. If the NY power company wants to pay the unions (as well as the visiting workers' employer), that is not an issue for the distant power company. So far nobody has said whether state or city law requires union membership.
 
2012-11-06 03:01:55 PM

JackieRabbit: Oh, for the love of ... It is just a form letter intended for local utility companies. It was probably sent to the Florida municipal electric association either in error or as a matter of record. So another made up BS story.


Shush you! This is the partisan shills' last chance to win over a few tenths of a percentile worth of voters.

Why must you ruin this dream?
 
2012-11-06 03:06:05 PM

Lehk: why should i believe anything from cocksucker carlson's online rag?


THIS.


For those stuck on stupid with the desire to exterminate unions:

Killing unions is unnecessary and counterproductive for the nonunionized as well.

When the South repeals RTW enmasse for a better bill(one that might include contract/agency/PT workers in the no-closed-shop rule), perhaps there would be less animus towards their position against labor organizing. That and it would help if the antiunion derpers would drop the inaccurate stereotype that maligns Italians.

Besides, why is it bad for workers to organize themselves with a labor unio
but OK for an employer to have a contractor organize them to protect the employer?
 
2012-11-06 03:17:07 PM

factoryconnection: Well there it is... the IBEW went too far. And then they went back on it, figuring that the shoddy work done by the low-wage guys will have to be redone.

I guess I'll vote "no" on unionization at my electrician shop, and then vote yes later.


LOL the union has the best workers meme is funny. Unions are for slugs and thugs
 
2012-11-06 03:19:15 PM

super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.


They can't. Most union guys are dipshiats who can barely read a blueprint
 
2012-11-06 04:01:29 PM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Ain't monopolies and unions grand?


I'm curious how you would suggest utilities be delivered if not for monopolies within a designated service area. How many electric companies should we allow to hang wires from poles? How many side-by-side water or gas mains do we really want underground?

Then, when you consider that much of the cost of utilities is because of infrastructure maintenance and repair, how does it benefit the consumer? If an area is served by two competing companies, it means that they will have the same infrastructure costs but with half the customers. Wouldn't that double the delivery cost of the utility?
 
2012-11-06 04:03:08 PM

cig-mkr: King Something: super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.

Goods vs services.

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one

Paying people more money doesn't result in better quality. I supervised six union electricians and eight union mechanics and let me tell you they weren't equal in skillsets. A few I couldn't trust to fix a ham sandwich. And these guys were all making $34 an hour plus bennies.


This.
Unions are awful. They keep the unemployable employed. And, yes; I work at a union shop. We collectively want to kill our rep on principle. While hoping we can each get back our $1,200 in yearly dues. I need a farking drink.
 
2012-11-06 04:28:33 PM

gryf: Unions are awful. They keep the unemployable employed. And, yes; I work at a union shop. We collectively want to kill our rep on principle. While hoping we can each get back our $1,200 in yearly dues. I need a farking drink.


So, basically, you're worthless.
 
2012-11-06 05:59:43 PM

When paying someone for a particular service, you get what you pay for:
Exhibit A: Over-the phone PC tech support - would you rather deal with the $30/hr union worker who speaks American English or the sub-minimum wage guy from India who tells you to do the needful?
Exhibit B: Night-Ladies - would you rather spend an hour or two with a lady who looks like she understands the concept of personal hygiene but charges $1000 for full service; or the lady who looks like she hasn't bathed in a week, probably has more social diseases than she does teeth, but only charges $10?
Exhibit C: Automotive mechanical work - would you rather get a radiator hose installed at Pep Boys for $50 (with a warranty and guarantee), Bubba's Oil And Tires for $20 (no warranty or guarantee), or Sam's Club for $19 (no warranty or guarantee, except for the guarantee that your money will be used to help Walmart exploit Chinese slave labor)?

Think about which you would choose in the above scenarios and why, and then consider choosing between having power lines reconnected by $30/hr local union workers who'll still be in town after the job's done, or by $9/hr non-union guys from out-of-state who'll go back to their home the minute they finish "fixing" the problem.

/disclaimer: I am neither an over-the-phone PC tech support guy, a night-lady, an automotive mechanic nor a power line technician
//I've never had to go to Pep Boys more than once to fix a problem on any car I've ever had, nor have I ever had a new problem pop up immediately after they fix the old one

Paying people more money doesn't result in better quality. I supervised six union electricians and eight union mechanics and let me t ...

stirfrybry: super_grass: So wait...

Charging shiatloads of money for food and fuel after a disaster is wrong because it's gouging.

But keeping labor prices high thanks to government-legislated monopolies after the same disaster is okay?

Fark union apologists. explain this.

They can't. Most union guys are dipshiats who can barely read a blueprint


Down here, in New Orleans, I work for the local union as an apprentice electrician. It is a right to work state, yet we are still making gobs of money for our unionized shop contractors. We are making our contractors so much money, that they agree to pay us a premium rate. The free market has spoken, and we have collectively negotiated a contract with many different contractors that benefited both parties sufficiently.

We unionized electricians are paid a premium wage, and it's not because we can sit on our asses all day. We get paid because we are what the market has decided our quality is worth. If the contractor sees that our work is shoddy, sub par, slow, or overpriced, they wouldn't sign the contract at all.

You can lie, and spew bullshiat about the union thugs, or slugs, or whatever horseshiat you can come up with. You cant deny that we are worth premium pay, by the fact that the market has decided to pay what we negotiated for,. Premium service is premium pay.

And why shouldn't I be in the union? My wages will be higher, I have access to legal representation for my law-given rights, health care, retirement plans, job security, and the ability to travel to any state and canada, walk into a hall, and get a job there. That means when I have to evacuate from the next hurricane, I will be working that same week, in another part of the country. We emphasize quality and efficiency, because we know that we have to make the contractor money, or they'll go nonunion in short order.

So tell me, what exactly have the unions done to you guys, that piss you off so much?
Nonunion shops don't even provide health insurance in my area.
 
2012-11-06 06:51:38 PM
Down here, in New Orleans, I work for the local union as an apprentice electrician. It is a right to work state, yet we are still making gobs of money for our unionized shop contractors. We are making our contractors so much money, that they agree to pay us a premium rate. The free market has spoken, and we have collectively negotiated a contract with many different contractors that benefited both parties sufficiently.

We unionized electricians are paid a premium wage, and it's not because we can sit on our asses all day. We get paid because we are what the market has decided our quality is worth. If the contractor sees that our work is shoddy, sub par, slow, or overpriced, they wouldn't sign the contract at all.

You can lie, and spew bullshiat about the union thugs, or slugs, or whatever horseshiat you can come up with. You cant deny that we are worth premium pay, by the fact that the market has decided to pay what we negotiated for,. Premium service is premium pay.

And why shouldn't I be in the union? My wages will be higher, I have access to legal representation for my law-given rights, health care, retirement plans, job security, and the ability to travel to any state and canada, walk into a hall, and get a job there. That means when I have to evacuate from the next hurricane, I will be working that same week, in another part of the country. We emphasize quality and efficiency, because we know that we have to make the contractor money, or they'll go nonunion in short order.

So tell me, what exactly have the unions done to you guys, that piss you off so much?
Nonunion shops don't even provide health insurance in my area.


Different types of unions, I would suppose. You're a skilled tradesman whose union affiliation both negotiates a wage AND provides quality work via training and developing craftsmen.

You're not in a government union that donates money to campaigns, whereupon the politicians elected repay the donation 100 fold with taxpayer money.

You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.

Different beast, really. I doubt anyone here begrudges your union a bit, even while they legitimately vilify other unions.
 
2012-11-06 09:36:51 PM
F*ck unions.
 
2012-11-06 10:54:22 PM

dfenstrate: Different beast, really. I doubt anyone here begrudges your union a bit, even while they legitimately vilify other unions.



I would agree with this. As I see it the only jobs that unions actually improve the product are electricians and plumbers. Those two things done poorly can destroy buildings. If the point is the hurricane rebuilding efforts wanted to make sure licensing was valid, then fine. If the point is the local unions threw up roadblocks because of union dues issues, then screw them. There's a time and place for union shenanigans, and rebuilding a large area isn't one of them.

At this point I've completely forgotten what this thread is about, although my experience has been large corporations that kowtow to excess union demands, like all of the restrictive garbage at McCormick Place, have made dealing with them a huge pain.

And lastly, the only public sector unions I can stand are those repping the police and firemen. I know a ton of those guys and you wouldn't believe the false stories brought in by losers trying to get them in trouble. Around here the public pressure on police chiefs to stay clean is intense enough there's very little problem getting rid of bad employees, so the system works.
 
2012-11-07 02:55:05 AM

dfenstrate: You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.


Then the answer is to ensure that offshoring becomes prohibitively expensive.
 
2012-11-07 01:37:31 PM

Dedmon: Down here, in New Orleans, I work for the local union as an apprentice electrician. It is a right to work state, yet we are still making gobs of money for our unionized shop contractors. We are making our contractors so much money, that they agree to pay us a premium rate. The free market has spoken, and we have collectively negotiated a contract with many different contractors that benefited both parties sufficiently.


I'm going to have to be honest here, and this sounds less like a 'union' and more like a 'guild'. You identify and develop the best electrical workers, thus justifying your premium. You're more independent from any given business than traditional unions.

sethstorm: dfenstrate: You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.

Then the answer is to ensure that offshoring becomes prohibitively expensive.


"prohibitive" doesn't even necessarily need to take much. Consider the effects of a 5% credit on wages up to $15k per employee per year. Doesn't subsidize CEO level wages excessively, but makes unskilled labor a bit cheaper. Often that's all it takes.
 
2012-11-07 02:40:53 PM

sethstorm: dfenstrate: You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.

Then the answer is to ensure that offshoring becomes prohibitively expensive.


Just sent this letter to China, then.
 
2012-11-08 01:20:41 PM

WelldeadLink: sethstorm: dfenstrate: You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.

Then the answer is to ensure that offshoring becomes prohibitively expensive.

Just sent this letter to China, then.


I'm sure they're not exactly surprised to hear that US citizens want to reclaim what is the property of said US citizens.
 
2012-11-09 07:30:13 PM

Firethorn: Dedmon: Down here, in New Orleans, I work for the local union as an apprentice electrician. It is a right to work state, yet we are still making gobs of money for our unionized shop contractors. We are making our contractors so much money, that they agree to pay us a premium rate. The free market has spoken, and we have collectively negotiated a contract with many different contractors that benefited both parties sufficiently.

I'm going to have to be honest here, and this sounds less like a 'union' and more like a 'guild'. You identify and develop the best electrical workers, thus justifying your premium. You're more independent from any given business than traditional unions.

sethstorm: dfenstrate: You're not a low-skilled laborer who is easily replaceable, but in a union that drives up costs and imposes so many work rules that manufacturers go bankrupt or move production to china.

Then the answer is to ensure that offshoring becomes prohibitively expensive.

"prohibitive" doesn't even necessarily need to take much. Consider the effects of a 5% credit on wages up to $15k per employee per year. Doesn't subsidize CEO level wages excessively, but makes unskilled labor a bit cheaper. Often that's all it takes.


IBEW is the first and oldest electrical union in the world. Located in the U.S. and Canada. Been around sense late 1800s, collectively bargaining our trade skills for better wages, for decent hours, and basic work safety then and now. It's every much a union as any phantom boogeyman you think "real' unions are like.
 
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