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(Some Guy)   Jaguar and Land Rover decide to copy Volkswagen's strategy of putting 4 rings on a Golf and charging $10,000 more   (nitrobahn.com) divider line 46
    More: Interesting, Land Rovers, Jaguars, golf, Volkswagen  
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3753 clicks; posted to Business » on 06 Nov 2012 at 4:22 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-06 04:29:29 AM
The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on the street is this :

upload.wikimedia.org

Yes, this is an Aston Martin, an Aston Martin Cygnet to be precise, which is actually a rebadged Toyota iQ. It sells for 48.000 dollars, almost three times the price of the iQ. The only changes are tweaks to the exterior and interior.
 
2012-11-06 04:38:19 AM

padraig: The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on the street is this :

[upload.wikimedia.org image 280x185]

Yes, this is an Aston Martin, an Aston Martin Cygnet to be precise, which is actually a rebadged Toyota iQ. It sells for 48.000 dollars, almost three times the price of the iQ. The only changes are tweaks to the exterior and interior.


The impetus for the Cygnet's existence is European pollution law that demands Aston Martin has a average pollution level that is unobtainable with their actual production line.

The fact that they are making a monetary windfall is an added bonus.
 
2012-11-06 04:42:51 AM

Heliodorus: The impetus for the Cygnet's existence is European pollution law that demands Aston Martin has a average pollution level that is unobtainable with their actual production line.

The fact that they are making a monetary windfall is an added bonus.


I was aware of that. The fact that some people buy them is what is the most ridiculous, in my opinion.
 
2012-11-06 05:51:56 AM
I have a new GTI. I was actually in the market for an Audi A3 but was actually convinced by the DEALER to take the GTI instead, informing me of the cross platform thing. There is one major difference between the A3 and the GTI though, the A3 is loaded to the gills with "luxury" items like power seats, air conditioned glove compartments, and the ever popular driver's seat bidet, that are almost guaranteed to need constant repair unlike the VW. That's what an extra 7k gets you.
 
2012-11-06 06:58:17 AM
This is what GM has done for decades. This is also what British Leyland (owner of Jaguar and Land Rover for years) failed to do. At one point in the seventies BL had cars in the mid sized saloon market including the Morris Marina, Austin Allegro, Austin Maxi and Triumph Dolemite, and they all had unique platforms and engines. Ditto the larger saloons by Austin, Rover and Triumph.
Triumph spent lots of money building their own 3.0 V8 for the Stag even though Rover had a fantastic 3.5 V8 already, and the Triumph engines unreliability doomed the Stag.
Jaguar engineers developed a new XJ range and deliberately made the engine bay too narrow to take the Rover V8 since they had decided not to use their V12, only straight six's, and they didn't want BL forcing them to fit a Rover engine. Then BMW bought out a V12, Mercedes bought out a V12 and Jaguar had a brand new model that they couldn't fit their V12 in...
 
2012-11-06 07:08:32 AM

Flint Ironstag: This is what GM has done for decades. This is also what British Leyland (owner of Jaguar and Land Rover for years) failed to do. At one point in the seventies BL had cars in the mid sized saloon market including the Morris Marina, Austin Allegro, Austin Maxi and Triumph Dolemite, and they all had unique platforms and engines. Ditto the larger saloons by Austin, Rover and Triumph.
Triumph spent lots of money building their own 3.0 V8 for the Stag even though Rover had a fantastic 3.5 V8 already, and the Triumph engines unreliability doomed the Stag...


BL was, IIRC, even worse than that. Not only did they studiously avoid sharing engines and transmissions, whenever they *did* do sharing, they took it to the other extreme of badge-engineering. Growing up I recall my father having a succession of Austin Maxis (Maxii? Maxen?) as company cars, because the other choices were even worse, and there was a Morris that was absolutely identical apart from the badges.

Oh, and who could forget the Austin/Morris/Wolseley Princess?

I saw Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps the most impressive part of the period setting was the number of BL cars that were still moving -- although now that I think about it, it's possible that the crew just gave a Morris Marina a good shove from off-screen and then filmed it as it rolled across the shot...
 
2012-11-06 07:40:34 AM
GM and Ford have done it for ages, and done it passably.... Though I will say it's unnerving to see a Cadillac that looks like a Chevy Camaro.

And for fark's sake, at least try to make some of those mid-range lines look a least a 'little' different from the lower-priced lines. I still, cannot, for any reason see the purpose in buying a Mercury over a Ford, or a Buick over a Chevy.
 
2012-11-06 07:43:33 AM

czetie: Flint Ironstag: This is what GM has done for decades. This is also what British Leyland (owner of Jaguar and Land Rover for years) failed to do. At one point in the seventies BL had cars in the mid sized saloon market including the Morris Marina, Austin Allegro, Austin Maxi and Triumph Dolemite, and they all had unique platforms and engines. Ditto the larger saloons by Austin, Rover and Triumph.
Triumph spent lots of money building their own 3.0 V8 for the Stag even though Rover had a fantastic 3.5 V8 already, and the Triumph engines unreliability doomed the Stag...

BL was, IIRC, even worse than that. Not only did they studiously avoid sharing engines and transmissions, whenever they *did* do sharing, they took it to the other extreme of badge-engineering. Growing up I recall my father having a succession of Austin Maxis (Maxii? Maxen?) as company cars, because the other choices were even worse, and there was a Morris that was absolutely identical apart from the badges.

Oh, and who could forget the Austin/Morris/Wolseley Princess?

I saw Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps the most impressive part of the period setting was the number of BL cars that were still moving -- although now that I think about it, it's possible that the crew just gave a Morris Marina a good shove from off-screen and then filmed it as it rolled across the shot...


Yeah, they made some hideous badge engineered cars, like the Mini with a boot Riley and a "luxury" Vanden Plas version of the Allegro. And the TR7 was based on the Marina IIRC.

But that was their failing. They either didn't do it or did it so pathetically. There were too many divisions who hated each other and refused to cooperate, and no strong CEO to knock heads together. A V8 Rover P6 with a new skin and a Jaguar badge would have been fantastic. The Stag with the Rover V8 (originally a Chevy engine) would have been fast and reliable. The Maxi was years ahead of its time being a five door hatchback, but they screwed it up. Ditto the Dolemite Sprint which had a twin cam 16v engine.
Even the Range Rover spent the first ten years of its life without an automatic option or five doors. Several independent companies offered conversions for both but BL just weren't interested in meeting such an obvious demand.
 
2012-11-06 07:45:24 AM
And a fantastic big Rover design was killed because Jaguar didn't want the competition.

And BMW continued the trend after they bought BL. They killed the more powerful version of the MGF because they didn't want it to compete against their Z3.
 
2012-11-06 08:36:24 AM

padraig: The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on the street is this :



Yes, this is an Aston Martin, an Aston Martin Cygnet to be precise, which is actually a rebadged Toyota iQ. It sells for 48.000 dollars, almost three times the price of the iQ. The only changes are tweaks to the exterior and interior.


Wow, it's like a modern day Cadillac Cimmaron.
 
2012-11-06 08:51:00 AM
JLR is already doing this. Has been for years.

The LR2 and Evoque are based on the Ford Escape.

The LR2 just uses the Escape's platform. The Evoque goes a step further, and uses the Escape's engine (2 liter ecoboost), transmission, and all wheel drive system.

the Range Rover Sport is a Discovery.

JLR's V6 diesels are Peugeot engines (Citroen C6).
 
2012-11-06 10:26:39 AM
The Stag was, in some bizarre way, a very English equivalent to the American muscle car. I remember as a teenager it was the car in which we all imagined picking up the girlfriends we didn't have.

Flint Ironstag: a "luxury" Vanden Plas version of the Allegro.


I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
 
2012-11-06 10:27:17 AM

padraig: Yes, this is an Aston Martin, an Aston Martin Cygnet to be precise, which is actually a rebadged Toyota iQ. It sells for 48.000 dollars, almost three times the price of the iQ. The only changes are tweaks to the exterior and interior.


That exists because of the UK fuel efficiency laws, which are based on an average across the product line. To balance out their thirsty sports cars, Aston needed a fuel-efficient model. They don't really care if they sell them or not.
 
2012-11-06 10:44:26 AM

Cinaed: GM and Ford have done it for ages, and done it passably.... Though I will say it's unnerving to see a Cadillac that looks like a Chevy Camaro.

And for fark's sake, at least try to make some of those mid-range lines look a least a 'little' different from the lower-priced lines. I still, cannot, for any reason see the purpose in buying a Mercury over a Ford, or a Buick over a Chevy.


when i got my first car back in school, i got a Neon. After i picked out the options/color i wanted, the dealer asked me "well ok now, do you want the logo to say 'Dodge' or 'Plymouth' " as that was the only difference

/went 'Dodge'
 
2012-11-06 10:59:53 AM

Flint Ironstag: czetie: Flint Ironstag: This is what GM has done for decades. This is also what British Leyland (owner of Jaguar and Land Rover for years) failed to do. At one point in the seventies BL had cars in the mid sized saloon market including the Morris Marina, Austin Allegro, Austin Maxi and Triumph Dolemite, and they all had unique platforms and engines. Ditto the larger saloons by Austin, Rover and Triumph.
Triumph spent lots of money building their own 3.0 V8 for the Stag even though Rover had a fantastic 3.5 V8 already, and the Triumph engines unreliability doomed the Stag...

BL was, IIRC, even worse than that. Not only did they studiously avoid sharing engines and transmissions, whenever they *did* do sharing, they took it to the other extreme of badge-engineering. Growing up I recall my father having a succession of Austin Maxis (Maxii? Maxen?) as company cars, because the other choices were even worse, and there was a Morris that was absolutely identical apart from the badges.

Oh, and who could forget the Austin/Morris/Wolseley Princess?

I saw Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps the most impressive part of the period setting was the number of BL cars that were still moving -- although now that I think about it, it's possible that the crew just gave a Morris Marina a good shove from off-screen and then filmed it as it rolled across the shot...

Yeah, they made some hideous badge engineered cars, like the Mini with a boot Riley and a "luxury" Vanden Plas version of the Allegro. And the TR7 was based on the Marina IIRC.

But that was their failing. They either didn't do it or did it so pathetically. There were too many divisions who hated each other and refused to cooperate, and no strong CEO to knock heads together. A V8 Rover P6 with a new skin and a Jaguar badge would have been fantastic. The Stag with the Rover V8 (originally a Chevy engine) would have been fast and reliable. The Maxi was years ahead of its time being a five door hatchba ...


I think the fact that, if you happened to be driving over a camber change in the carriageway the rear three quarter window could pop out was somewhat of a limiting fact to the maxi's success.

/uncle had a maxi
//friend had a marina
 
2012-11-06 11:16:25 AM
Re: Headline.

WUT?

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-06 11:49:04 AM

PsyLord: Re: Headline.

WUT?

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 215x174]


Read the below.

Evi1Bo1weevi1: I have a new GTI. I was actually in the market for an Audi A3 but was actually convinced by the DEALER to take the GTI instead, informing me of the cross platform thing. There is one major difference between the A3 and the GTI though, the A3 is loaded to the gills with "luxury" items like power seats, air conditioned glove compartments, and the ever popular driver's seat bidet, that are almost guaranteed to need constant repair unlike the VW. That's what an extra 7k gets you.


The Audi A3 is a Golf with an Audi shell/badge slapped onto it.

VW/AUDI/Skoda/SEAT all use common platforms.
 
2012-11-06 11:54:38 AM
Actually, it wasn't until the late 1970s that GM really started to take badge-engineering to an extreme. Before then, Chevy, Buick, Olds, Pontiac, and Cadillac all had their own engines. There was a bit of sharing here and there (the 3.5 Rover V8 engine began at Buick and was also used in a few Olds models), but I remember it being TV newsworthy when people started complaining about Chevy engines showing up in late-70s Oldsmobiles. Not that I'd complain, as the small-block Chevy was one of the all-time great engine designs, but some people thought they were being ripped off.
 
2012-11-06 12:29:54 PM

Evi1Bo1weevi1: I have a new GTI. I was actually in the market for an Audi A3 but was actually convinced by the DEALER to take the GTI instead, informing me of the cross platform thing. There is one major difference between the A3 and the GTI though, the A3 is loaded to the gills with "luxury" items like power seats, air conditioned glove compartments, and the ever popular driver's seat bidet, that are almost guaranteed to need constant repair unlike the VW. That's what an extra 7k gets you.


The difference between a base 4 GTI and an A3 is less than $3k and the A3 comes stock with leather rather than plaid cloth seats. Both have the same warranty and internals so the repair aspect would be identical. That seems like a deal to you?
 
2012-11-06 12:39:53 PM

Evi1Bo1weevi1: I have a new GTI. I was actually in the market for an Audi A3 but was actually convinced by the DEALER to take the GTI instead, informing me of the cross platform thing. There is one major difference between the A3 and the GTI though, the A3 is loaded to the gills with "luxury" items like power seats, air conditioned glove compartments, and the ever popular driver's seat bidet, that are almost guaranteed to need constant repair unlike the VW. That's what an extra 7k gets you.


Jetta=A4
Passat=A6

The A4 was too small for myself, and the A6 was too expensive. 129,000 miles later, the Passat was just right.
 
2012-11-06 12:42:33 PM

Bruce Campbell: The difference between a base 4dr GTI and an A3 is less than $3k and the A3 comes stock with leather rather than plaid cloth seats. Both have the same warranty and internals so the repair aspect would be identical. That seems like a deal to you?


FTFM
 
2012-11-06 01:01:19 PM

Broktun: Jetta=A4
Passat=A6


That isn't correct.

Passat=A4. Jetta=A3, Golf, TT
 
2012-11-06 01:10:30 PM

Bruce Campbell: Broktun: Jetta=A4
Passat=A6

That isn't correct.

Passat=A4. Jetta=A3, Golf, TT


Yup, I have a 2012 A6 and it shares nothing with any VW.
 
2012-11-06 01:48:25 PM
www.motorstown.com

This is what Land Rovers ought to be. I hate that they ruined the range rover. The disco was alright at first, but now its just a soccer mom car.

shame.
 
2012-11-06 02:03:10 PM

BadReligion: Yup, I have a 2012 A6 and it shares nothing with any VW.


It does if it is the 2.0t, but I would assume you would've dropped the extra jack for the supercharged 6. That transforms the hell out of that car. Waiting for a good lease deal on the 3.0t A6 to drop and pull the trigger on it. I like the S4, but I think I'd feel a little more mature with the A6. Trying to start being an adult. Then again, I prefer a smaller car.
 
2012-11-06 02:36:16 PM

padraig: The most ridiculous thing I've ever seen on the street is this :

[upload.wikimedia.org image 280x185]

Yes, this is an Aston Martin, an Aston Martin Cygnet to be precise, which is actually a rebadged Toyota iQ. It sells for 48.000 dollars, almost three times the price of the iQ. The only changes are tweaks to the exterior and interior.


To be fair, the interior in that thing is outstanding.

On topic, while platform sharing may increase reliability and reduce costs, I think that unique platforms for each model probably makes the car better to drive.
 
2012-11-06 02:49:30 PM

Axel_Gear: I think that unique platforms for each model probably makes the car better to drive.


I think you're right. One counterpoint though: shared platforms between coupes and convertibles should always start with platform being made with the intention of building a convertible first, not just cutting the top off a coupe and add weight to improve chassis rigidity.
 
2012-11-06 02:53:02 PM

Biness: [www.motorstown.com image 640x480]

This is what Land Rovers ought to be.

shame.


And for just $75k or so there are a bunch of niche importers that will bring a Euro version over, get it to US Spec and let you drive away in it. LandRover International versions are still true to their heritage, as are the HiLux and other "real" trucks.
 
2012-11-06 02:58:18 PM

Bruce Campbell: Axel_Gear: I think that unique platforms for each model probably makes the car better to drive.

I think you're right. One counterpoint though: shared platforms between coupes and convertibles should always start with platform being made with the intention of building a convertible first, not just cutting the top off a coupe and add weight to improve chassis rigidity.


This is a very good point. Top Gear scientifically tested this one a while back. Cars that were designed originally as convertibles were much better cars to drive than coupes that later had the top cut off.
 
2012-11-06 03:17:02 PM

Axel_Gear: This is a very good point. Top Gear scientifically tested this one a while back. Cars that were designed originally as convertibles were much better cars to drive than coupes that later had the top cut off.


Well what do you know. I do retain kernels of knowledge when I am drunk and watching TV. It also works better that way for the coupes too. Look at the handling of the Porsche Cayman.
 
2012-11-06 03:32:20 PM

BadReligion: Bruce Campbell: Broktun: Jetta=A4
Passat=A6

That isn't correct.

Passat=A4. Jetta=A3, Golf, TT

Yup, I have a 2012 A6 and it shares nothing with any VW.


I had meant to point out also that Passat!=A4 anymore and hasn't since 2006. Passat is on the transverse engine platform, where the A4 is now on the longitudinal engine platform.
 
2012-11-06 03:49:07 PM

BHShaman: LandRover International versions are still true to their heritage


I'm the only person I've ever met in the US who had a V-8 Discovery in stick shift.
 
2012-11-06 03:51:07 PM

Bruce Campbell: BadReligion: Yup, I have a 2012 A6 and it shares nothing with any VW.

It does if it is the 2.0t, but I would assume you would've dropped the extra jack for the supercharged 6. That transforms the hell out of that car. Waiting for a good lease deal on the 3.0t A6 to drop and pull the trigger on it. I like the S4, but I think I'd feel a little more mature with the A6. Trying to start being an adult. Then again, I prefer a smaller car.


3.0T, I wanted the 6 and the quattro. In your position, I would go for the S4 or S5 over the A6, but it is more personal preference at that point.
 
2012-11-06 03:58:42 PM

GaperKiller: BHShaman: LandRover International versions are still true to their heritage

I'm the only person I've ever met in the US who had a V-8 Discovery in stick shift.


Now buying a stick in an SUV means you get the least powerful engine and no options. Stick has become a cost saving feature rather than a driving feature.
 
2012-11-06 04:06:07 PM

Axel_Gear: Now buying a stick in an SUV means you get the least powerful engine and no options. Stick has become a cost saving feature rather than a driving feature.


It was a mean off road machine, let me tell you. The body roll would freak people out on any kind of side hill, but the manual made that thing for me. I do wish they had brought the Defender to the US as anything but a luxury jeep, every farmer in England had a variant of it, and they seem to run forever.
 
2012-11-06 04:59:20 PM

BadReligion: 3.0T, I wanted the 6 and the quattro. In your position, I would go for the S4 or S5 over the A6, but it is more personal preference at that point.


S-tronic (DSG) + 3.0T in the B8 S4 is a lot of fun and can be well behaved too... My B6 S4 was stick because you didn't buy that kind of car with a Tiptronic in it. But the DSG is a completely different animal and I'm extremely pleased I went with it.

Interesting all the marques that VAG owns - VW, SEAT, Skoda, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, and now Porsche.
 
2012-11-06 05:08:46 PM

slykens1: BadReligion: 3.0T, I wanted the 6 and the quattro. In your position, I would go for the S4 or S5 over the A6, but it is more personal preference at that point.

S-tronic (DSG) + 3.0T in the B8 S4 is a lot of fun and can be well behaved too... My B6 S4 was stick because you didn't buy that kind of car with a Tiptronic in it. But the DSG is a completely different animal and I'm extremely pleased I went with it.

Interesting all the marques that VAG owns - VW, SEAT, Skoda, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, and now Porsche.


My A6 has the Tiptronic, most of the A models do, they only put the DSG in the S models. The 8 speed is really quick shifting and in S mode it is very aggressive.
 
2012-11-06 05:20:21 PM
I can tell that subby knows nothing about cars.

Land Rover and Jag used to be a part of Ford, which makes Franken-cars for/from all of their brands. That's why you see Ford's with Volvo engines and Jag trying to be like Aston's white trash little brother.
 
2012-11-06 07:34:07 PM

Biness: [www.motorstown.com image 640x480]

This is what Land Rovers ought to be. I hate that they ruined the range rover. The disco was alright at first, but now its just a soccer mom car.

shame.


from your post to god's ear. they really were a manly beast at one time. they were a survival tool with a fine lineage. now they hunt for school children and lattes at Starbucks. dammit to hell.
 
2012-11-06 08:13:45 PM

GaperKiller: BHShaman: LandRover International versions are still true to their heritage

I'm the only person I've ever met in the US who had a V-8 Discovery in stick shift.


Now you can make that two. Mrs czetie is a nature photographer (as I've mentioned before) and when we first started dating she was driving into Death Valley in a 10 year old Toyota Corolla handed down from her mom. I persuaded her to get the Discovery -- fortunately her father, bless his sainted heart, had taught her to drive a stick -- and taught her how to use the hi-lo shifter and the differential lock. I'll always remember the fun we had one January in Yosemite, laughing at stranded Ford Explorers.
 
2012-11-06 10:42:22 PM
I don't remember the Golf coming in a 5 door model in the US market. The A3 fills a niche for VW/Audi. Looked at a TDI to replace our Mini Cooper. Tons of A3s running around DC.
 
2012-11-07 03:55:45 AM
Dealer: In the market for a Jaguar, eh? Well I have just the car for you...
Me: That's a Ford Contour
Dealer: No, it's a Jaguar. Not the same thing.
Me: Oh you.
 
2012-11-07 04:11:44 AM
I miss Pontiac.

I've owned quite a few of them over the years, and currently have a 2007 Grand Prix GT. Supercharger and everything. Yes, they lost their way quite a few times over the years - we can never forget the Aztec - but I liked the idea of performance cars with a bit of class and luxury. And occasionally way too much horsepower. I've owned a Trans Am with the Pontiac 455, and once the engine was reworked a bit to remove all the limiting factors, it was awesome.

GM did a good thing, I think, by involving their Australian Holden division in the G8. My roommate has a 2009 G8 GT with the 6.0L V8, and loves it half to death. GM really screwed up the Holden-based GTO, though. The car looked as bland as mashed potatoes.
 
2012-11-07 10:26:31 AM
I'm in the market for a new car. My base Yaris is ready to move on. It's an 07 (bought in 06) with 75000 miles. I could keep it around but I got a new jerb and I'm just deciding what to do.

I'm liking the sleek look of the new acura ilx. Wish I could afford a Volvo s60 but its roughly outside of my price range.

Still trying to figure out why the Jeep Patriot is so cheap.
 
2012-11-07 10:26:31 AM

89 Stick-Up Kid: I can tell that subby knows nothing about cars.

Land Rover and Jag used to be a part of Ford, which makes Franken-cars for/from all of their brands. That's why you see Ford's with Volvo engines and Jag trying to be like Aston's white trash little brother.


i can tell you think you know alot, but actually know very little. you don't know what a chassis or a platform is.
 
2012-11-07 01:43:56 PM

WienerButt: I'm in the market for a new car. My base Yaris is ready to move on. It's an 07 (bought in 06) with 75000 miles. I could keep it around but I got a new jerb and I'm just deciding what to do.

I'm liking the sleek look of the new acura ilx. Wish I could afford a Volvo s60 but its roughly outside of my price range.

Still trying to figure out why the Jeep Patriot is so cheap.


Stay far far away from the jeep patriot........

There is zero sound proofing in that car you cannot even hear yourself think when you are accelerating. Also had tie rods fail in the 30000km and the windshield wipers magically turn themselves on whenever they want. The interior is extemely cheap and the ride is extremely rough and uncomfortable...

It's a neon with a jeep shell that is all it is
 
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