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(WTOP)   The IRS has basically quit even trying to enforce that whole "tax-exempt churches can't preach politics" thing. Because, you know, it's hard and stuff   (wtop.com) divider line 218
    More: Stupid, IRS, United States federal courts, Americans United, church law, worship service, tax code  
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8759 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Nov 2012 at 12:57 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-05 02:33:51 PM
it's not like there's programs that could use the additional funding if we enforced the laws...
 
2012-11-05 02:37:40 PM

Agent Smiths Laugh: TheOriginalEd: Sometimes.. I really dont like living here..

Okay, I give up. You humans are all doomed.


A church on the way to work has a big sign that says "Vote your God's Values"

Your guess is as good as mine.
 
2012-11-05 02:38:11 PM
Tax them already.
 
2012-11-05 02:38:17 PM

TaxChurchesFundNASA: it's not like there's programs that could use the additional funding if we enforced the laws...


I like the way you think....
/and you handle
 
2012-11-05 02:39:15 PM
What I really hate about this issue is that the IRS code says very clearly that "if you want to be treated as a tax exempt organization for the purposes of charity, you must do so in a particular manner" and some of these church pastors, who spend every Sunday preaching about how we need to live lives with integrity and purpose to please God, then say, "I don't want to follow that rule, so it doesn't apply to me" and actually willfully break the rules so they can endorse candidates and say nonsense about the candidates they don't like.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, since these same pastors tend to pick and choose which parts of the Bible they want to follow and which they want to ignore, but it really grates on me that they behave this way. Is it too much to ask that those who are preaching morality actually follow through on their own personal morals?
 
2012-11-05 02:39:49 PM

Aidan: Agent Smiths Laugh: TheOriginalEd: Sometimes.. I really dont like living here..

Okay, I give up. You humans are all doomed.

A church on the way to work has a big sign that says "Vote your God's Values"

Your guess is as good as mine.


Are they flat out saying that God's values aren't yours? In that case, I'm not voting for that guy!

/What's he running for again?
 
2012-11-05 02:40:13 PM

tjfly: Be careful what you wish for. I'll just leave this here...
[bfl-app-content.s3.amazonaws.com image 484x312][globetribune.info image 400x301][www.infiniteunknown.net image 300x415][assets.nydailynews.com image 485x376]


ERMAGERD ITS DER COLORED FOLK!!! QUICK HIDE ARE YOUR FREEDOMS BEFORES THEY TAKES DEM AWAYS!!!
 
2012-11-05 02:41:25 PM

orlandomagik: MurphyMurphy: Just get rid of their tax exempt status.

God understands, otherwise he wouldn't have told you to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.

Problem solved.

I'd like to see a christian church official defend their tax exempt status when faced with this quote.


God lives in Rome.
 
2012-11-05 02:43:12 PM

scopecreep: Either pay taxes or pray for rain when your building catches on fire.


That's cute, but publicly funded fire departments aren't just trying to save the structure or whatever that's on fire. They're trying to keep the fire from spreading.
 
2012-11-05 02:45:12 PM

factoryconnection: HortusMatris: Christianity did not create those things, people did, it's just one of many ways to get groups of people together to sponsor and do things like that.

Catholic Relief Services wasn't a product of religion? Wow.


Catholic Relief Services is it's own sentient entity, capable of magically making good deeds happen without any action from individual human beings? Are all religious organizations able to do this kind of thing? Interesting... I may have to create a religious organization to do my housework for me, then.
 
2012-11-05 02:51:30 PM
Maybe because the law was made by the Johnson administration, whom have stated repeatedly that they never even imagined the law was to even supposed to apply to churches when they wrote it. That and it is completely unconstitutional. Probably for those reasons dumbmitter.
 
2012-11-05 02:54:16 PM

orlandomagik: MurphyMurphy: Just get rid of their tax exempt status.

God understands, otherwise he wouldn't have told you to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.

Problem solved.

I'd like to see a christian church official defend their tax exempt status when faced with this quote.


I'm not an "official" by any means, but I am a Christian, and I dutifully pay all the taxes I owe. As far as I know, the church I attend complies with all relevant laws, and none of its compensated employees have been arrested for tax fraud.

Did I do okay?
 
2012-11-05 02:56:41 PM

Miss Stein: ISO15693: Just for the record, if anyone brings up anything political in an LDS church meeting, they are politely ignored, and then told off later, unless they dont get the hint, in which case they are told off publically. Except for the really really old people. We sometimes let them rant (still ignoring them) but forego the "telling-off" because, well, they are old.

About the most political thing Ive heard is this election cycle is "'Im more of a Hunstman mormon than a Romney mormon"

You do see plenty of Romney and Obama bumper stickers in the parking lots though.

I'm gonna guess you're not inside the Zion Curtain. Different breed of animal resides there.


I live in California, you are right.

I lived in Salt Lake during the 2000 election though (as well as the 1999 tornado... ), and yeah, there were some "Jesus is a republican" types there. But thats location derpyness more than church derpyness. You'll also find the "Evolution is satan's trick" depytype there - but that's completely against the church's position too, and those people get told off as well. I've never seen a bishop or anyone in authority act that way.

The only LDS ward Ive ever been in that tolerated political preaching was in Columbia Falls, Montana which was ALL old people. There really is a concerted effort to keep that stuff out of church, imho.
 
2012-11-05 02:57:04 PM

tjfly: Be careful what you wish for. I'll just leave this here...
[bfl-app-content.s3.amazonaws.com image 484x312][globetribune.info image 400x301][www.infiniteunknown.net image 300x415][assets.nydailynews.com image 485x376]


I'm guessing most folks have your racist ass on ignore.
 
2012-11-05 02:57:42 PM

Son of Thunder: Boeheimian Rhapsody: not so csb:

My wife and I were on our honeymoon in Hawaii a couple weeks ago when we attended an open-aired sunday morning Episcopal church service. Things were going rather swimmingly until the sermon.

The preacher ended his sermon with:

...I recently had a meeting with numerous other religious leaders. many different races, colors, religions, all present for a lunch-time discussion. We wanted to come together to brainstorm more ways we can help those who need it most. We talked about many things, but the overarching message, was to help figure out what more we can do to help influence public policy.

He ended his sermon with a smile and a nod, and my wife and I looked at each other with mirrored expressions, "WTF? DID HE REALLY JUST SAY THAT?"

And that's when we looked around everyone else was nodding their heads.

It gave me a sad for this country.

Well, we wouldn't want religious people infecting public policy with their religious ideas. Right, William Wilberforce? Right, MLK Jr?


Worked for the French Catholics against the Huguenots....

I mean, Canada would definitely enjoy the influx of skilled workers that flee the country in droves....
 
2012-11-05 02:59:08 PM
perhaps not enforcing it because this court would rule it an unconstitutional restraint on speech. the government can't condition the grant of a benefit on relinquishing a constitutionally guaranteed civil right and this is a good thing, people. it's why the government couldn't condition the grant of food stamps on the implantation of a norplant device. this is supposedly a progressive ideal, and it shows just how many liberal farkers are among the furthest thing progressive idealists. it is a unconstitutional condition if ever one existed.


even though a person has no "right" to a valuable governmental
benefit and even though the government may deny him the
benefit for any number of reasons, there are some reasons upon
which the government may not rely. It may not deny a benefit to
a person on a basis that infringes his constitutionally protected
interests....
 
2012-11-05 02:59:09 PM

ISO15693: Just for the record, if anyone brings up anything political in an LDS church meeting, they are politely ignored, and then told off later, unless they dont get the hint, in which case they are told off publically. Except for the really really old people. We sometimes let them rant (still ignoring them) but forego the "telling-off" because, well, they are old.

About the most political thing Ive heard is this election cycle is "'Im more of a Hunstman mormon than a Romney mormon"

You do see plenty of Romney and Obama bumper stickers in the parking lots though.


There was a little of that in sacrament meeting the last couple of Sundays, but very mild. I think the bishop politely invited them to cut that the hell out. It was all overshadowed by the organist (probably around 85 years old) deciding she just didn't like one of the songs, and so she just stopped playing and went back to her seat in the middle of the third verse. Worked for me... I don't like it, either. Old ladies rock!
 
2012-11-05 03:00:47 PM
Maybe it's time to go old school and start blasting preachers from the pulpit with a Peacemaker?
 
2012-11-05 03:03:06 PM

treesloth: ISO15693: Just for the record, if anyone brings up anything political in an LDS church meeting, they are politely ignored, and then told off later, unless they dont get the hint, in which case they are told off publically. Except for the really really old people. We sometimes let them rant (still ignoring them) but forego the "telling-off" because, well, they are old.

About the most political thing Ive heard is this election cycle is "'Im more of a Hunstman mormon than a Romney mormon"

You do see plenty of Romney and Obama bumper stickers in the parking lots though.

There was a little of that in sacrament meeting the last couple of Sundays, but very mild. I think the bishop politely invited them to cut that the hell out. It was all overshadowed by the organist (probably around 85 years old) deciding she just didn't like one of the songs, and so she just stopped playing and went back to her seat in the middle of the third verse. Worked for me... I don't like it, either. Old ladies rock!


I can imagine this sort of thing making fast and testimony meeting much more amusing than the toothless man rambling something about how awesome scouts was back in 1934, and the fat old woman listing her health problems.
 
2012-11-05 03:03:17 PM
Let them keep the tax-exempt crap as long as they can show that at least 80% went directly to charitable causes. After that, I don't really care what some blowhard preacher says.
 
2012-11-05 03:08:53 PM

Marine1: Let them keep the tax-exempt crap as long as they can show that at least 80% went directly to charitable causes. After that, I don't really care what some blowhard preacher says.


you'd end up taxing probably 90% of charitable organizations in the u.s., certainly every charitable hospital in the country, or 60% of all hospitals that are currently run as charities.
 
2012-11-05 03:12:47 PM
wait 80% directly to charity? strike that, every ongoing charitable organization in the united states is now taxed corporate tax rates. I love when people know nothing about anything venture into conversations about how this country should be governed.
 
2012-11-05 03:12:53 PM

super_grass: Englebert Slaptyback: A while ago Bill Maher opined that churches are indeed abusing the tax exemption, and if the church catches on fire the church people should not be allowed to call the fire department.

Liberal compassion at work.


It would be true if Bill Maher were a "liberal", whatever that means. Unless you're using the word "liberal" in the "I don't agree with them so I'll call them a liberal" sense.
 
2012-11-05 03:13:35 PM
Instead of trying to watch what the churches say, they should just remove the tax-exempt status of all churches.

Problem solved.

/Both income, and property taxes.
 
2012-11-05 03:14:13 PM

HortusMatris: Catholic Relief Services wasn't a product of religion? Wow.

Catholic Relief Services is it's own sentient entity, capable of magically making good deeds happen without any action from individual human beings? Are all religious organizations able to do this kind of thing? Interesting... I may have to create a religious organization to do my housework for me, then.


Yes, that's what I said: Catholic Relief Services is god. Except no, I didn't. Religion is a construct of man, and there are fruits from that construct. Those that founded and run CRS did not do so randomly; they were inspired, supported, and funded by their religion. Religion is 100% real, regardless of the theology/mythology behind it.

relcec: it is a unconstitutional condition if ever one existed.


The Constitution calls for us to be taxed. Churches exempt themselves from not only taxation but also any oversight into their non-profit claims. They call for an exemption to their constitutional duties, and yet whine when it comes at a price? They could open their books, act like a normal non-profit, and do as they please with regards to politics.

But they don't.
 
2012-11-05 03:15:05 PM
What do you expect? The guy leading the IRS couldn't be bothered with paying taxes either
 
2012-11-05 03:15:06 PM

TheOriginalEd: Sometimes.. I really dont like living here..


best part, they probably advocate for voting for the non-christian
 
2012-11-05 03:16:40 PM

Rostin: orlandomagik: MurphyMurphy: Just get rid of their tax exempt status.

God understands, otherwise he wouldn't have told you to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.

Problem solved.

I'd like to see a christian church official defend their tax exempt status when faced with this quote.

I'm not an "official" by any means, but I am a Christian, and I dutifully pay all the taxes I owe. As far as I know, the church I attend complies with all relevant laws, and none of its compensated employees have been arrested for tax fraud.

Did I do okay?


I second this comment. All church members and employees have to pay their taxes, just like Jesus told them. The Jesus comment is also meant as a way to tell the disciples that compliance to Roman law is required, just like they are supposed to comply to what God is requiring of them. Since God is basically asking of the disciples to concentrate on the heavenly things and the great comission on Matthew 24, there should be little room for Christians to get involved in politics, or running for office, or trying to convince others to vote for a certain candidate.

That by definition rules out the need of a "Christian nation" or a "Leader according to God". We as Christians should be more concerned about showing the love of God on everything we do and sharing our faith to as many people as possible before the end of time. Anything else is a waste of time.

And don't even get me started on how the message of Christ spread like wildfire while the government had rulers that were doing gay, incest and pedophile activities in the open. Hint: we were nowhere near part of the government.
 
2012-11-05 03:17:37 PM

Sticky Hands: I can imagine this sort of thing making fast and testimony meeting much more amusing than the toothless man rambling something about how awesome scouts was back in 1934, and the fat old woman listing her health problems.


That's pretty hard to beat, but I think I might have. When I was 8, I was in the annual Primary presentation in sacrament meeting. I happened to be sitting in the bishop's seat. In the middle of one of the songs, I power-puked all over myself and the seat. After that, Mom and Dad listened when I said I was feeling sick...
 
2012-11-05 03:20:02 PM
I went to mass yesterday, not a word was said about the election.... maybe they forgot to bring it up?
 
2012-11-05 03:20:43 PM

elgrancerdo: Rostin: orlandomagik: MurphyMurphy: Just get rid of their tax exempt status.

God understands, otherwise he wouldn't have told you to give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.

Problem solved.

I'd like to see a christian church official defend their tax exempt status when faced with this quote.

I'm not an "official" by any means, but I am a Christian, and I dutifully pay all the taxes I owe. As far as I know, the church I attend complies with all relevant laws, and none of its compensated employees have been arrested for tax fraud.

Did I do okay?

I second this comment. All church members and employees have to pay their taxes, just like Jesus told them. The Jesus comment is also meant as a way to tell the disciples that compliance to Roman law is required, just like they are supposed to comply to what God is requiring of them. Since God is basically asking of the disciples to concentrate on the heavenly things and the great comission on Matthew 24, there should be little room for Christians to get involved in politics, or running for office, or trying to convince others to vote for a certain candidate.

That by definition rules out the need of a "Christian nation" or a "Leader according to God". We as Christians should be more concerned about showing the love of God on everything we do and sharing our faith to as many people as possible before the end of time. Anything else is a waste of time.

And don't even get me started on how the message of Christ spread like wildfire while the government had rulers that were doing gay, incest and pedophile activities in the open. Hint: we were nowhere near part of the government.


"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
 
2012-11-05 03:21:02 PM

factoryconnection: relcec: it is a unconstitutional condition if ever one existed.

The Constitution calls for us to be taxed. Churches exempt themselves from not only taxation but also any oversight into their non-profit claims. They call for an exemption to their constitutional duties, and yet whine when it comes at a price? They could open their books, act like a normal non-profit, and do as they please with regards to politics.

But they don't.




first paying taxes is not a constitutional duty.
second you claim that nonprofits don't have to file taxes and submit accounting each year to the irs is laughable.
third you don't even appear to know what unconstitutional condition means.
are you a 16-19 years old and a highschool or community college student? if not you should be embarrassed by your lack of even a basic civic foundation or any idea how necessary to enter into this discussion
 
2012-11-05 03:31:44 PM

Sticky Hands: treesloth: ISO15693: Just for the record, if anyone brings up anything political in an LDS church meeting, they are politely ignored, and then told off later, unless they dont get the hint, in which case they are told off publically. Except for the really really old people. We sometimes let them rant (still ignoring them) but forego the "telling-off" because, well, they are old.

About the most political thing Ive heard is this election cycle is "'Im more of a Hunstman mormon than a Romney mormon"

You do see plenty of Romney and Obama bumper stickers in the parking lots though.

There was a little of that in sacrament meeting the last couple of Sundays, but very mild. I think the bishop politely invited them to cut that the hell out. It was all overshadowed by the organist (probably around 85 years old) deciding she just didn't like one of the songs, and so she just stopped playing and went back to her seat in the middle of the third verse. Worked for me... I don't like it, either. Old ladies rock!

I can imagine this sort of thing making fast and testimony meeting much more amusing than the toothless man rambling something about how awesome scouts was back in 1934, and the fat old woman listing her health problems.


Lol.

There was a crazy old woman in Dunedin, NZ, that bore her testimony about being engaged to Elvis, and we were all invited.
 
2012-11-05 03:37:19 PM

ISO15693: There was a crazy old woman in Dunedin, NZ, that bore her testimony about being engaged to Elvis, and we were all invited.


There was an old lady in CA that had sort of lost the ability to tell when she was talking out loud or in her own head. After about 15 minutes of any one person talking, a sweet little old lady voice would float up from the congregation, "My heavens, he's still talking. Isn't he done?" and so on. Awesome...
 
2012-11-05 03:39:22 PM

JackieRabbit: SkunkWerks: All that said, it really doesn't sound very practical in terms of enforcement. Short of being exceedingly invasive of religious organizations, i don't see how enforcement could be accomplished.

Actually, it is rather easy to enforce. Ministers may offer prayers (intercessions) to political leaders, candidates, etc, but they cannot preach politics from the pulpit and retain their tax exempt status. If they tell their congregation that they should vote for candidate A because candidate B supports the sin of homosexuality, they have they have just violated the law. The IRS only investigates complaints. They don't go after every church out there. Many Christians are highly offended by their religion being politicized. On the other hand, there are many small storefront "churches" out there that aren't churches at all, but political operatives using the church as a cover. I know of a few that were popped by the IRS and essentially shut down. Fortunately, these usually only have a few very misguided members and once their backdoor funding dries up, the "preachers" close up shop and skip town.


Wow! Did not know that. I actually thought this could happen theoretically, and wondered why it wasn't more of a concern amongst the faithful rather than the reverse. It really shouldn't be the atheist/left/liberal worried about this stuff. Do they really want their church turning into campain headquarters?
 
2012-11-05 03:40:24 PM
factoryconnection:
HortusMatris: "Catholic Relief Services is it's own sentient entity, capable of magically making good deeds happen without any action from individual human beings? Are all religious organizations able to do this kind of thing? Interesting... I may have to create a religious organization to do my housework for me, then."

Religion is a construct of man,


At first I thought you completely missed my point, but then I see you made it for me. I wasn't saying religion isn't real, it's just as real as any other belief system or organization. I was stressing the fact that it is the human beings who comprise it who are the doers of good deeds (as well as bad ones sometimes), not religion itself.
 
2012-11-05 03:44:02 PM
Tell you what, Mr. "The First Amendment Don't Mean Jack To Me"

You prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law, then we'll talk ...

vladtepesblog.com

... and him ...

media.commercialappeal.com

... and this guy ...

aug-cdn.com

... and all the leadership of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference (SCLS) who preached Civil Rights Movement and all attendent politics from the pulpit.

heavenlysprings.files.wordpress.com

... and the Founding of the Nation by whose Constitution guarantees the right to free speech and peaceful assembly via the First Amendment, because without liberty-minded preachers, preaching Revolution from the pulpit mirroring Patrick Henry, Madison, Jefferson, et al inter-alia, you wouldn't have any free speech.

upload.wikimedia.org

So, surely you're not arguing for selective free speech are you?
 
2012-11-05 03:45:25 PM

Hrist: Here's my opinion:

What should happen is that the government and religion should be 100% separated. Federal, state, and local governments. No special treatment. No tax breaks aside from 'non profit' to those churches and such that can apply.

All laws should be examined for religious motivation. For example, alcohol laws. You can't buy liquor here on Sunday. Cut and dry, religiously motivated, it's out. You can't buy beer in liquor stores here because there's the temptation that some beer drinkers might turn to liquor. Cut and dry, religiously motivated, it's out. You can't buy non-alcoholic products here from liquor stores because then it would be a convenience for people and thus a temptation to turn to liquor. Cut and dry, religiously motivated, it's out. Liquor licenses are not granted within so many thousands of feet from a school/bus stop/church/etc. Religiously motivated, it's out. No gay marriage here. Religiously motivated, it's out. Etc. Etc. Those are all the ones I could think of within 30 seconds, and would change the way of life around these parts drastically.

Oh, the irony..


I occasionally point out that you can't ban gay marriage because God because we do not give a fark about God in the legal system. Seriously, my constitution professor was very clear on her distaste for that, and since she's an ex-lawyer\law professor...

/I love that class in hindsight
 
2012-11-05 03:48:49 PM

relcec: second you claim that nonprofits don't have to file taxes and submit accounting each year to the irs is laughable.


I didn't claim that. Churches do not have to justify their non-profit status, unlike secular non-profits. That is a huge difference.

relcec: third you don't even appear to know what unconstitutional condition means.


Yes I do. Show me the supreme court decision that supports your original claim. They are in fact the arbiters of constitutionality.

relcec: first paying taxes is not a constitutional duty


I'm beginning to think that I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Taxation is enshrined in the constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

Churches have an exemption from taxation regardless of holdings, income, or profit which makes them entirely unique. They are shielded by this exception from normal participation in society. Religion is thus given special, governmental privilege while also suffering a unique loss of unlimited freedom of speech, specifically the part about coercing people's votes. However, if they played by the rules of regular non-profits, they'd be fully able to endorse and reject candidates like the rest of society.

Instead they take their tax-exempt cake and eat it too.
 
2012-11-05 04:02:07 PM
scottydoesntknow

Was the 'Obvious' tag busy instructing its congregation that voting for Obama will usher in the apocalypse?
Riiight all churches are members of the far right wing conspiracy.

www.muldrake.com

www4.pictures.gi.zimbio.com

media.al.com

4.bp.blogspot.com

i80.photobucket.com

scm-l3.technorati.com

2.bp.blogspot.com

msnbcmedia2.msn.com

www.saintsunit.org

i80.photobucket.com

www.digitaljournal.com

www.memphisdailynews.com

blog.thephoenix.com

www.freedomsphoenix.com

educationviews.org

msnbcmedia1.msn.com

... yeah yeah I know...... it's ONLY bad when the other guy does it.
 
2012-11-05 04:02:29 PM
If only there were some way the IRS could be financially incentivized to do this duty.

/I said duty.
 
2012-11-05 04:23:47 PM
So, all you Republicans who are posting pictures of Obama, et al, in church....you are I'm sure just as OUTRAGED to find out that Romney paid no taxes from 1996 to 2009, because he "rented" the tax exempt status of the Mormon Church?
 
2012-11-05 04:25:05 PM
So as for American Christian's isn't lying a sin?
 
2012-11-05 04:29:45 PM
I've always thought that the problem with taxing churches is that they'll immediately incorporate and you'll have the same pseudo-personhood issues you have with any large corporations today, which would basically open the doors for churches to explicitly fund campaigns, buy advertising time, etc. etc. etc.
 
2012-11-05 04:30:52 PM

factoryconnection: relcec: second you claim that nonprofits don't have to file taxes and submit accounting each year to the irs is laughable.

I didn't claim that. Churches do not have to justify their non-profit status, unlike secular non-profits. That is a huge difference.

yes you did claim that. where do you think any and all justification for non profit status happens? at tax time.
and let me say if you truly believe this you are hopelessly ignorant on the matters you are trying to discuss. what do you think happens, the church says *fark off I'm a church* on april 15th? that secular non profits must show something other than that they aren't throwing off income to people who hold proprietary interests. do you really think the girl scouts or ACLU have to justify their non profit status in some other way on a yearly basis? tell me how this looks in your fantasy world. tell me how you think this justification works in the real world, and how old are you? you know about as much about how this world works as my goddamn cat. do you see my f*cking cat inhere pontificating about legal theory and tax law? wouldn't you be happier chasing a bottle cap back forth across a floor somewhere?



relcec: third you don't even appear to know what unconstitutional condition means.

Yes I do. Show me the supreme court decision that supports your original claim. They are in fact the arbiters of constitutionality.

no you clearly don't; you keep insisting that all the church needs to do is jump through government hoops and then their constitutionally guaranteed rights will be restored, when the goddam legal doctrine I'm quoting (unconstitutional condition doctrine) and you highlighted in your reply proscribes the exact process you are advocating, it prohibits the governments very ability to induce citizens to give up constitutionally guaranteed rights through incentives which is what you keep saying is kosher.

relcec: first paying taxes is not a constitutional duty

I'm beginning to think that I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Taxation is enshrined in the constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."


this is your quote smart guy: "They call for an exemption to their constitutional duties, (paying taxes)"
 
2012-11-05 04:31:51 PM

Clemkadidlefark: Tell you what, Mr. "The First Amendment Don't Mean Jack To Me"

You prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law, then we'll talk ...
...
So, surely you're not arguing for selective free speech are you?


Of course not, they can say whatever they want. They just can't claim to be tax exempt afterwards.

I'm still mystified why NOT taxing churches is constitutional. In order to apply that law, the government must determine that the church is actually a religious organization. In doing that, the first amendment is violated, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I mean, if they have to acknowledged its standing as a religious organization in order to impart special treatments, isn't that tantamount to being the authority responsible for determining if a given religion is considered 'established' or not.

So, the way to truly deal with this within the scope of the constitution is to treat religious non-profits exactly the same as non-religious ones. That means their special exceptions go *poof*
 
2012-11-05 04:32:58 PM
All private areas must be taxed no matter what. Someone might say something their that might make liberals lose an election.
 
2012-11-05 04:34:06 PM

ProfessorOhki: Clemkadidlefark: Tell you what, Mr. "The First Amendment Don't Mean Jack To Me"

You prosecute this guy to the fullest extent of the law, then we'll talk ...
...
So, surely you're not arguing for selective free speech are you?

Of course not, they can say whatever they want. They just can't claim to be tax exempt afterwards.

I'm still mystified why NOT taxing churches is constitutional. In order to apply that law, the government must determine that the church is actually a religious organization. In doing that, the first amendment is violated, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." I mean, if they have to acknowledged its standing as a religious organization in order to impart special treatments, isn't that tantamount to being the authority responsible for determining if a given religion is considered 'established' or not.

So, the way to truly deal with this within the scope of the constitution is to treat religious non-profits exactly the same as non-religious ones. That means their special exceptions go *poof*


wow.
 
2012-11-05 04:36:26 PM

superfudge73: So as for American Christian's isn't lying a sin?


That depends.

Does "American Christian's isn't lying" mean "American Christian is isn't lying" or does it mean "isn't lying belongs to American Christian"?
 
2012-11-05 04:36:38 PM

Samsquantch: phartman: In other news, taxation of expatriates continues unabated.

Taxation without representation is tyranny"

As an American living in Canada, I am not getting a kick out of expatriate taxation.


Same here, thankfully I make under 90,000 but I don't own any assets yet. With my Husband being Canadian I don't know how joint assets might work out.
 
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