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(The New York Times)   For a true picture of the United States economy, ride the train from New York to Washington and take a good, hard look out the window   (nytimes.com) divider line 209
    More: Interesting, New York, United States, Stern School of Business, Sunoco, Sallie Mae, organizing principle, U.S. economy, corporate law  
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35657 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Nov 2012 at 12:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-05 01:04:50 AM

Monongahela Misfit: wildcardjack:

Back to topic, when we make it our business to support local business with laws that make it easier to stay here, then we will see growth. As long as our laws make it more difficult for local business's to compete in our home markets, and until we learn to compete globally for manufacturing jobs, They will continue to elude us.


It's a tough problem. The only way to 'compete' for manufacturing jobs with China is to cut wages and benefits to the point where you can no longer make a living doing it. Not only is the labor cheaper, but so are many of the raw materials, and there is less less environmental and safety regulation. We shouldn't move backwards in either of those areas.

My idea would be to tie corporate taxes to employment levels domestically and abroad. Corporations who employ more US workers would get tax breaks, those that outsource overseas would be levied with additional penalties. If the 'break even' point was moved through taxation such that it made more financial sense to keep the jobs here, more companies would do it. 

Also, get rid of the H1B visa program. Require US companies to hire skilled workers from the pool of talent here.
 
2012-11-05 01:05:14 AM

russkie247: The only reason why any manufacturing is outsourced to Asia or other cheap areas is because of just that -- it's cheaper.


But how many people understand what the word "cheaper" means in this context? it means that those nations are willing to let their citizens starve, or work the sex trade, or lose gingers, toes, hands and feet. it also means those nations are willing to poison their citizens with industrial chemicals that a democratic and scientific society would ban (because poison is bad and alternatives can be created). I think the sickest part of all of this is the way people would rather deregulate than they would want to create safe industries that nurture healthy citizens. The use of the word "cheaper" as some kind of euphemism is chilling.
 
2012-11-05 01:07:37 AM

bindlestiff2600: a similar view is available on the commuter train tween waukegon and chigago


Yeah, but who goes to Chicago?
 
2012-11-05 01:08:08 AM

AverageAmericanGuy: Monongahela Misfit: wildcardjack: moulderx1:

Global realities make it difficult for some manufacturing businesses to compete. You're not talking about lowering the bar for local companies but raising the bar for foreign companies.


the "free trade" racket makes it impossible for anyone to compete with slave labour.

there is no bar to raise or lower.
it's as simple as " someone else will work for minus 2 dollars a week if you don't" so that fat americans can buy disposable crap from a country that has no environmental or human rights standards.

it was made more impossible by the idiotic dismantling of the railway systems in north america so that big trucking would buy more gas.

it's a shell game: deplete one place, move to another as the economy you left collapses..kill everyone and everything that stands in your way. if you don't kill them, rig their elections and prop up a dictator.

just like a game of starcraft..you win, but you are left by yourself on a heap of slag.

VICTORY!
 
2012-11-05 01:10:08 AM

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: I could have a Makerbot 2 in my house for less than most middle-class families spend on their washer and dryer... and it's basically that-- an appliance. Filament ("ink") is priced reasonably considering the tech is still in it's infancy (about $45/kilo).


Googled makerbot. holy cats, $2500... I make automotive stuff and that would be nice for prototyping.
 
2012-11-05 01:10:23 AM

TuteTibiImperes: Monongahela Misfit: wildcardjack:
Also, get rid of the H1B visa program. Require US companies to hire skilled workers from the pool of talent here.


As someone who can't find qualified workers for his group, partially because of this restriction on extremely talented, foreign engineers, you can go and eat a bowl of fiery dicks.
 
2012-11-05 01:10:47 AM

JesseL: It's amazing how many people still believe that you can have a functional economy without basic industry. Service industries are important, but they don't create wealth.

It's arrogant to think we can just perpetually let the third world handle all the dirty work while we sit back and skim off the cream and expect the world to sit in awe of our imagined monopoly on handling all the less physical creative stuff.


Um, I hate to break it to you, but American economics are about creating shareholder value in a global market, not 'wealth.'
 
2012-11-05 01:12:21 AM

Bennie Crabtree: russkie247: The only reason why any manufacturing is outsourced to Asia or other cheap areas is because of just that -- it's cheaper.

But how many people understand what the word "cheaper" means in this context? it means that those nations are willing to let their citizens starve, or work the sex trade, or lose gingers, toes, hands and feet. it also means those nations are willing to poison their citizens with industrial chemicals that a democratic and scientific society would ban (because poison is bad and alternatives can be created). I think the sickest part of all of this is the way people would rather deregulate than they would want to create safe industries that nurture healthy citizens. The use of the word "cheaper" as some kind of euphemism is chilling.


Well they don't have souls, so it doesn't matter does it?

But in all seriousness, it is cheaper. The lax regulations over there DO give you a lower price point at the register. The idea is that you don't have to pay for all the externalities :)
 
2012-11-05 01:12:59 AM

Zombie DJ: karl2025: Nudge: News Flash: It's like this near every train track. For some reason, land values around train tracks plummet...

They also don't build train tracks in areas with high land values for since it'd annoy rich people and it'd cost a lot to buy the land for said railroad both in pocket money and opportunity costs.

So much this!


So much not this.

When the location of the right of way was picked out and the rail road was built, the vast majority of the 'urban decay' you see today was cow pasture. The rail roads built America. Even the parts we've used up, worn out and cast aside.
 
2012-11-05 01:14:03 AM
GOPers love this shiat.
 
2012-11-05 01:14:10 AM
It isn't just the trains. As a driver I've seen every state in the lower 48 in the last 3 years. It has a reek of desperation about it. Farms and manufacturing plants are falling into a dilapidated state. The yards of the occupied houses I pass by don't seem as well-kept. There are a ton of abandoned properties in every state. In all seriousness, the entire country has the smell of desperation to it.

I don't think this is about the last 4 years; the giant "recession". There was the transition to two parent working families, shifting technology, outsourcing labor to other countries, expensive changes in EPA regulations for dirty industry, the conquering of big box retail, rampant unqualified lending, and much more.

It seems like some folks and businesses have just given up. Very sad.
 
2012-11-05 01:15:03 AM

Lligeret: As it turns out people don't like trains in their back yard so that area deteriorates. Same thing goes with interstates/highways, power lines, airports, harbors/seaports (actual harbors), power plants, mines, etc...It is called NIMBY


are you a moron?

the economic production sector in the US has been slowly dismantled for three reasons and the dismantling of the railway system was in furtherance of that..not because of that.

1- take economic power away from the people so they are dependent and disenfranchised. offer them credit.
2- cripple the greedy mafia infested unions. (replace one form of organized crime with another..BIG BUSINESS)
3- avoid taxes by manufacturing overseas with slave labour.

if NIMBY was an issue at all, you wouldn't have a four lane highway anywhere in America...and you would be sitting in the dark banging this idiocy out on a stone tablet..

and i don't know anyone who has a harbour in their back yard...

you post is idiotic...
 
2012-11-05 01:15:39 AM
"your" post is idiotic rather....
 
2012-11-05 01:15:50 AM

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: meat0918: Arthur Jumbles: All manufacturing, even the stuff we outsourced, will be done by robots in a few years and small items will be printed at home using 3-D printers.

Agree with the robots, disagree with the printers.

I expect that the printers will come with exorbitant prices + a hefty tax and price on the "ink".

I could have a Makerbot 2 in my house for less than most middle-class families spend on their washer and dryer... and it's basically that-- an appliance. Filament ("ink") is priced reasonably considering the tech is still in it's infancy (about $45/kilo).

Things tend to get cheaper as time goes on. The "I expect" part of your statement basically means "I have no idea what I'm taking about, but here's an opinion anyway."


Exactly. My opinion is that the government will tax it quite well if they can. Home distilling is still illegal in part due to the danger of kabooms plus the excise tax they get on distilled liquor.

So, my opinion is that they will tax it somehow.
 
2012-11-05 01:16:52 AM

russkie247: TuteTibiImperes: Monongahela Misfit: wildcardjack:
Also, get rid of the H1B visa program. Require US companies to hire skilled workers from the pool of talent here.

As someone who can't find qualified workers for his group, partially because of this restriction on extremely talented, foreign engineers, you can go and eat a bowl of fiery dicks.


Can't find anyone in the US that can do the job, or can't find anyone in the US who will do the job for the same pay as a transplant from India or China? In the unlikely event that there is no available US citizens with the requisite skill set then why not hire someone with the closest related background and provide on the job training?
 
2012-11-05 01:17:36 AM

KarmaSpork: It isn't just the trains. As a driver I've seen every state in the lower 48 in the last 3 years. It has a reek of desperation about it. Farms and manufacturing plants are falling into a dilapidated state. The yards of the occupied houses I pass by don't seem as well-kept. There are a ton of abandoned properties in every state. In all seriousness, the entire country has the smell of desperation to it.

I don't think this is about the last 4 years; the giant "recession". There was the transition to two parent working families, shifting technology, outsourcing labor to other countries, expensive changes in EPA regulations for dirty industry, the conquering of big box retail, rampant unqualified lending, and much more.

It seems like some folks and businesses have just given up. Very sad.


amen brother (or sister depending)
 
2012-11-05 01:21:06 AM

Haliburton Cummings:
amen brother (or sister depending)


Sister :)
 
2012-11-05 01:22:15 AM

KarmaSpork: It isn't just the trains. As a driver I've seen every state in the lower 48 in the last 3 years. It has a reek of desperation about it. Farms and manufacturing plants are falling into a dilapidated state. The yards of the occupied houses I pass by don't seem as well-kept. There are a ton of abandoned properties in every state. In all seriousness, the entire country has the smell of desperation to it.

I don't think this is about the last 4 years; the giant "recession". There was the transition to two parent working families, shifting technology, outsourcing labor to other countries, expensive changes in EPA regulations for dirty industry, the conquering of big box retail, rampant unqualified lending, and much more.

It seems like some folks and businesses have just given up. Very sad.


A lot of it has to do with the fact that we're still coming down from the massive post-WWII economic boom. The US was able to step into a global manufacturing void because we were largely unravaged by all the bombing, but now all the former industrial powerhouses have recovered. And several countries that used to be 3rd world shiatholes have benefited from globalization, so that they are stealing our industrial share as well.

The US used a temporary spike in profits to weigh itself down with a permanently elevated population and infrastructure, which we now have no hope of supporting.
 
2012-11-05 01:26:20 AM

Haliburton Cummings: and i don't know anyone who has a harbour in their back yard...


I know several people who have a harbor in their backyard, but nobody with a harbour.
 
2012-11-05 01:26:48 AM

HotWingAgenda:
A lot of it has to do with the fact that we're still coming down from the massive post-WWII economic boom. The US was able to step into a global manufacturing void because we were largely unravaged by all the bombing, but now all the former industrial powerhouses have recovered. And several countries that used to be 3rd world shiatholes have benefited from globalization, so that they are stealing our industrial share as well.

The US used a temporary spike in profits to weigh itself down with a permanently elevated population and infrastructure, which we now have no hope of supporting.


/agree
Of course, if we would have stayed the course after the Apollo program, we could have been an 'idea nation' and let the manufacturing of those ideas slide to the recovered infrastructure in other countries supporting our growth. Alas, that didn't happen, and things like NAFTA and the MFN status for China are killing us.
 
2012-11-05 01:27:05 AM
Thomas Sowell -- Dismantling America

"..right up to the moment of collapse.."
 
2012-11-05 01:28:55 AM
This is true along many of the rail lines in this country, so not seeing what the big deal is about this one particular line.
 
2012-11-05 01:30:41 AM

NewportBarGuy: Yes, because the future is near the railroad tracks. F*cking idiotic.

 
2012-11-05 01:34:35 AM

JerkyMeat: GOPers love this shiat.


Why would they? All the ghetto dwellers vote Dem.
 
2012-11-05 01:36:44 AM
For an alternate look at the United States economy, take a limo from Wall Street to K Street, and look hard out the window and reflect on the enmity.
 
2012-11-05 01:37:36 AM
Hate to tell them but I could do that BEFORE the economic collapse. In fact, I recognize a lot of those areas and they were like that before the collapse.
 
2012-11-05 01:37:43 AM
Crisis? What Crisis?
 
2012-11-05 01:38:44 AM
Take the train between Hong Kong and Canton, China to see the opposite.
(But also not very pretty in places)
 
2012-11-05 01:40:34 AM

HotWingAgenda: I know several people who have a harbor in their backyard, but nobody with a harbour.


I have a harbour in my back yard.
Click on my profile.
Now you know me.
!!!
 
2012-11-05 01:42:11 AM

KarmaSpork: HotWingAgenda:
A lot of it has to do with the fact that we're still coming down from the massive post-WWII economic boom. The US was able to step into a global manufacturing void because we were largely unravaged by all the bombing, but now all the former industrial powerhouses have recovered. And several countries that used to be 3rd world shiatholes have benefited from globalization, so that they are stealing our industrial share as well.

The US used a temporary spike in profits to weigh itself down with a permanently elevated population and infrastructure, which we now have no hope of supporting.

/agree
Of course, if we would have stayed the course after the Apollo program, we could have been an 'idea nation' and let the manufacturing of those ideas slide to the recovered infrastructure in other countries supporting our growth. Alas, that didn't happen, and things like NAFTA and the MFN status for China are killing us.


they aren't "stealing" anything....it's being handed to them.

Nixon was the architect of China via Kissinger or vice versa, take your pick...
They have been gambling on the Robert Malthus equation being applied to consumers in a generic sense. its not food, it's coffee tables and cars too.

The problem is, the populations aren't getting smaller via disease, wars etc...
They thought they could roll in, strip mine everything, profit from this and then these countries would recede into poverty again...and that ain't happening so....

go sift through your local used bookstore and look for anything from the " Foreign Policy Association" ..

i have two books in front of me from 1968 that basically outlined all of this...the collapse, GMO food, free trade etc... even the internet.

and if you think SOPA/PIPA etc is a "new" thing, the germs of this started in 68 with the Darpa/Arpa crowd.

this crap has been simmering in the pot for awhile...

ranty rant...
 
2012-11-05 01:44:00 AM

0Icky0: HotWingAgenda: I know several people who have a harbor in their backyard, but nobody with a harbour.

I have a harbour in my back yard.
Click on my profile.
Now you know me.
!!!


OH YOUZE
 
2012-11-05 01:45:49 AM

FizixJunkee: JesseL: It's amazing how many people still believe that you can have a functional economy without basic industry. Service industries are important, but they don't create wealth.


Switzerland might like to have a word with you.


Switzerland's basic industry is pretty famous for cheese, chocolate, chronometers, and those cute folding knives, fwiw.
 
2012-11-05 01:46:15 AM
"A harbor or harbour (see spelling differences), or haven, is a place where ships, boats, and barges can seek shelter through stormy weather, or else are stored for future use. "

:)
 
2012-11-05 01:51:27 AM

0Icky0: HotWingAgenda: I know several people who have a harbor in their backyard, but nobody with a harbour.

I have a harbour in my back yard.
Click on my profile.
Now you know me.
!!!


Sweet! I've always wanted a Chinese biker buddy.
 
2012-11-05 01:51:50 AM

deadcrickets: Hate to tell them but I could do that BEFORE the economic collapse. In fact, I recognize a lot of those areas and they were like that before the collapse.


America has been destroying itself for a long time.
Problem is, it's trying to take everything else with it.

(insert crying panda here)
 
2012-11-05 01:53:10 AM
I Voted for the monorail.
 
2012-11-05 01:54:25 AM
img24.imageshack.us
 
2012-11-05 01:55:05 AM
For a true picture of the US economy all one has to do is hike along a creek in a state or national park. You wont find a single functioning waterwheel. It's depressing the state of disrepair the grist & saw mills have fallen into - literally fallen into the water, even the rust is gone.
 
2012-11-05 01:57:21 AM
so vote for the guy that wants to raise taxes on everyone outside of the train and lower taxes on everyone inside
 
2012-11-05 02:02:41 AM
I love taking the train around here. You get to see the back of everything in the towns, and lots of farms and natural land. At least, you do around here.
 
2012-11-05 02:03:12 AM

russkie247: JesseL: It's amazing how many people still believe that you can have a functional economy without basic industry. Service industries are important, but they don't create wealth.

It's arrogant to think we can just perpetually let the third world handle all the dirty work while we sit back and skim off the cream and expect the world to sit in awe of our imagined monopoly on handling all the less physical creative stuff.

Manufacturing in the US still exists, it's just increasingly automated. The only reason why any manufacturing is outsourced to Asia or other cheap areas is because of just that -- it's cheaper. The impending technological innovations in robotics and 3D printing are going to wreak absolute havoc on the economies of those countries which rely on outsourced labor from the developed countries.

Although we will see more manufacturing done within our own borders, don't expect there to be many humans involved in the process.


Oh, it's worse than that. As I've said before, and been roundly ignored before, we've lost way a lot more jobs than anyone cares to realize (on both sides of the aisle), variously in the name of efficiency, computerization, self-service and downsizing, even without offshore outsourcing and the shift to a service economy.

For instance: Big box stores kill jobs. Not because of any evil Walmartization, but simply because they need less people per square foot than the same number of stores would, if they were individual shops. A Target or Walmart needs fewer clerks to handle, say, their electronics section than a music store, electronics store, TV shop and video/DVD store would. Plus, each store would need it's own shipping and warehouse, delivery and so on. All those jobs are now gone. Or consider a bank. Used to be, 40 years ago, everyone sat down and paid their bills by check or money order. You wrote the checks, dropped them in envelopes, mailed them in (which had to be handled by mailmen), they got opened by someone at the credit card company or utility company, processed, sent to the bank, processed THERE, and mailed back to you. Now its all done online by one or two people. All those jobs are gone.

Gas stations used to all be full service, which meant three or four guys hanging around the gas station to fill your tank, check your oil, take the money or your credit card slip (see paying bills above) and give you change and directions. Not only are those jobs gone, they were valuable entry-level positions for high-school kids. Now: Gone. Accounting used to be a couple of floors of people sitting at desks with adding machines; now it's two or three people with computers and Excel spreadsheets. Everyone else is unemployed. Online ordering killed a lot of jobs, since you don't need brick&mortar stores anymore--you order something from a warehouse centrally located and it gets shipped to you via FedEx or UPS. Why have a store anymore, or people in that store?

The jobs are gone. They aren't coming back, barring a massive switch away from efficiency and centralization. Even if outsourcing was stopped, that doesn't mean jobs would come back to America, except low-paying manufacturing--and the only reason those are done overseas is because they're cheaper AND easier to do manually than to do mechanically. If they had to be done here, they'd be automated at a slightly higher cost within ten years. The jobs that are missing are not jobs that have been outsourced, they're jobs that got computerized or centralized, and they just can't be regained. Sorry, folks. Those outsourced jobs are not jobs you want to do. That's why they got outsourced. And the other lost jobs aren't jobs we can get back.
 
2012-11-05 02:10:35 AM

TuteTibiImperes: In a global economy labor is far cheaper elsewhere. Unless those who work in the manufacturing sector are willing to take jobs at the same rate of pay as the Chinese, Mexicans, or Indians or US shoppers are willing to accept large price increases in the cost of goods already manufactured overseas, the future of the economy won't be in manufacturing. This isn't a US-only problem. Japanese companies are moving production abroad as fast as they can - the cost of living in Japan and high yen make it impossible to produce much of anything for export domestically.

There will always be some domestic manufacturing, especially for advanced technology projects (Intel has a number of fabs in the US), products that are either too expensive to ship or can benefit from patriotism from being produced locally (automobiles, firearms), and items with security or IP related concerns that can't be trusted to foreign production, but overall when it comes to easily manufactured goods, especially textiles, plastics, and lower cost electronics the trend is clearly towards third world production.

That doesn't mean the economy can't grow, we just need to shift to engineering, designing, and marketing the products to create jobs, not actually building them. Yes, that means that just a high school diploma won't be competitive in the job market anymore, but that's been evident for decades.

Right next to that Amtrak line in my old home town of Newark, DE there is a shuttered Chrysler plant that is now being converted into a science, technology, and advanced research campus at the University of Delaware. The US leads the world when it comes to innovators and well rounded, talented, and capable engineers. Keeping our place as the driving force behind the world's economy and the nation with the most wealth and highest standards of living will depend on educating and preparing the young of today for the tasks that can best be done here, and that means an education that's heavily grounded in ...


Trust me, all my father's friends in DE are super excited that the factory they thought they would retire from is being converted by UD. They're glad that all their hopes and dreams in the American manufacturing industry were dashed by the lower costs in other countries.
 
2012-11-05 02:10:50 AM

Gyrfalcon: Sorry, folks. Those outsourced jobs are not jobs you want to do. That's why they got outsourced. And the other lost jobs aren't jobs we can get back.


At least we can still destroy countries, then engage in nation building. At least that keeps our military employed, and we can avoid socialism or something.
 
2012-11-05 02:14:01 AM

HotWingAgenda: Sweet! I've always wanted a Chinese biker buddy.


Right on.
Although the only thing Chinese about me is my location, my food, and my mistress.
 
2012-11-05 02:14:40 AM

de_Selby: Ever heard of the Main Line? Perhaps you'd like to rethink.


A four-bedroom house in Swarthmore located two blocks from the SEPTA station will command a princely sum. But take a look at the houses that are butt-up against the tracks equidistant between stops. They're multi-family dumps and crumbling 60s apartment blocks. They get no special benefit from the station that's three miles away--all they get is the noise.

Ditto the Green Line or commuter rail in Boston, the LIRR trains that go out near the Hamptons, the MARTA system in the Baltimore-Washington corridor, etc. etc. Train-convenient very very good; train-adjacent very very bad.
 
2012-11-05 02:15:06 AM
graphics8.nytimes.com

W...T...F!!! I'm staying the heck out of Baltimore.
 
2012-11-05 02:20:35 AM

skantea: [graphics8.nytimes.com image 650x403]

W...T...F!!! I'm staying the heck out of Baltimore.


graphics8.nytimes.com

man, i knew Wesley Snipes had some problems but...wow
 
2012-11-05 02:27:19 AM
Gyrfalcon:
agreed...

the thing that blows my mind is that China, America wherever could be leading nations in retraining and reintegrating people for new jobs that make sense..cleaning up and recycling could be huuge..
thats one example...

( Canada had a shot at that but they have a Skull and Bones appointed NeoCon in there now so...Adolf Harper..)

what is sad is that until the collapse, nothing will get done...then it will have to get done if it isn't too late.

what irks me the most is the greedy calling the poor lazy...most of those folks would work their ass off if they were treated fairly and could GET a job...

astounding really.
 
2012-11-05 02:30:35 AM
I took Amtrak (the "Empire Builder") from Minneapolis to Chicago a few years ago. Some beautiful scenery along the way, with many bald eagles, wild turkeys, herons and other wildlife, and lovely lakes and prairies. And many, MANY tiny little towns, almost all of which appear to be rotting away. Broken-down houses, graffiti'd walls, and a general aura of defeat and despair. The Empire Builder rolls through Milwaukee, and features a couple of hours of passage through scenery that's about as close to Third World as it gets in this country. Once you get into the city, it's fine, but the outskirts -- crumbling brick buildings with broken windows, graffiti, grime and broken glass all over the place, derelict factories, nasty little stained clapboard houses with curling shingle roofs -- are about as depressed and depressing as anything I can remember seeing in the USA, and I've traveled a fair amount in this country.
 
2012-11-05 02:36:38 AM

GAT_00: For the past 30-plus years, through Republican and Democratic administrations, there has been much lip service paid to the idea that the era of big government is over. Long live free enterprise. And yet in the case of those areas surrounding the capital, wealth has gravitated to the exact spot where government regulation is created.

That's a nice Apples to Potato comparison.


What about that paragraph isn't absolutely crystal clear to you?
 
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