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(Yahoo)   University approved penis show in the women's locker room at Evergreen College   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 373
    More: Asinine, evergreens, Evergreen College, KOMO, faith-based, discrimination law, uproars, penis, gender identity  
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19103 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Nov 2012 at 5:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-04 09:59:58 PM

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?

That's a false argument, since she's not a dude.

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Yes it is..I don't care what your transgender studies 101 American Psychological Association and all other relevant medical associations tells you. If you have a penis and like to put into woman you are a man. Granted you may be a man who likes to wear dresses, but a man nonetheless.

FTFY.  You're starting to sound like one of those "homosexuality is a mental disorder, I don't care what you say" people.


The American Psychological Association is NOT the final arbiter of what goes on in the real world. If you have a penis, you are a male.
 
2012-11-04 10:02:20 PM

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.


I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.
 
2012-11-04 10:04:02 PM

RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.


One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.
 
2012-11-04 10:05:26 PM

mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.


Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.
 
2012-11-04 10:06:51 PM

austerity101: RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.

One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.


We know this. We are not confusing you flopping your penis around our loves ones because of your psychological problems.
 
2012-11-04 10:06:55 PM
I have two penises and three vaginas, and something I just call "Loretta". What change room do I use?
 
2012-11-04 10:10:22 PM

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.

Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Yes because most people know a man has a penis and women has a vagina. The locker room is not the place where a mother should have to try defining the difference between gender/sex to six year old while a dude is sitting nude staring at her change.
 
2012-11-04 10:17:46 PM

austerity101: RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.

One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.


Sex does determine which bathroom, locker room you enter, not gender.
 
2012-11-04 10:25:34 PM

WhippingBoy: I have two penises and three vaginas, and something I just call "Loretta". What change room do I use?


Apparently whatever one you want. We wouldn't want to offend a 'loretta" no matter how confusing and uncomfortable it might make the rest of the population. You know because the majority have never been right about anything.
 
2012-11-04 10:33:20 PM

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.

Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Actually they're designated with the 99% of the world in mind for whom those two things are the same. That being said, I'm pretty sure the ones with stand-up urinals in them are for those anatomically set up for that use.
 
2012-11-04 10:42:26 PM

crabsno termites: austerity101:

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?

/Sorry
//Was hanging too low not to pick.


Falwell is dead. He died and went to hell. For eating so much Virginia ham sandwiches that he began to look pig faced---not kosher.
 
2012-11-04 10:58:37 PM
My two cents. If my daughter correctly told me that a person had a cock out in the women's locker room, that person would be beaten to within an inch of their life. I don't care if you're in the middle of affording surgery or in the middle of affording a cheeseburger. Not my problem.
 
2012-11-04 11:05:08 PM

austerity101: Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Says who? If you asked the majority of the population (probably greater than 99%) if gender and sex meant the same thing, they would say yes. The easiest solution is to say that bathroom and locker room designations are split by sex, not gender. This would solve the problem, correct?

The law excluded, the thing that baffles me about situations like this are the "the transgendered person should not be made uncomfortable or put in an awkward position." The reason this boggles my mind is that rather than 1 person being made uncomfortable, now several likely are. In addition to this even with any accommodations that are made that one person is likely still uncomfortable.

//Even taking every consideration into play, sitting spread eagle with your cock out (whether you're a man or a woman) is inappropriate in a woman's sauna.
 
2012-11-04 11:15:55 PM

Snarfangel: So she is a woman with a six-inch-long clitoris and a hormonal disorder. Stop staring.


THIS.
 
2012-11-04 11:26:33 PM
I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.
 
2012-11-04 11:29:51 PM
I know that the people that need to watch this won't (these threads always draw the Free Republic crowd on Fark), but maybe it will open somone's eyes. Jazz, who knew she was really a girl at age three.
 
2012-11-04 11:32:53 PM

ElBarto79: I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.


Funny when I also brought this guy's own self description no on would reply. I was just being a gender/penis phoebe something or the other.
 
2012-11-04 11:35:01 PM

mopar1956: ElBarto79: I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.

Funny when I also brought this guy's own self description no on would reply. I was just being a gender/penis phoebe something or the other.


Shut up! How dare you suggest somebody the PC crowd likes isn't entirely a victim?
 
2012-11-04 11:37:55 PM

Repo Man: I know that the people that need to watch this won't (these threads always draw the Free Republic crowd on Fark), but maybe it will open somone's eyes. Jazz, who knew she was really a girl at age three.


Which sounds difficult for jazz. If or when jazz is a 45 year old man with man parts who wants to hang around girls locker rooms with his wang out making teenage and younger girls uncomfortable I will have to say sorry jazz time to go to the boy's room.
 
2012-11-04 11:50:04 PM
I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.
 
2012-11-05 12:02:18 AM

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


His right to have his penis out trumps you or anyone's in that locker room. Never mind underage girls have already complained about his penis being out an looking at them while they change. Think progress.

snark aside I'm sorry for your plight and just think the wang's should change with the wang's.
 
2012-11-05 12:04:56 AM

morgantx: I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


I'm not quote the rest of that because, frankly, it looked very difficult to compose and type, much less have to read all over again. But you made several valid points.

On a side note, as a guy I have an unsettlingly large number of female friends with your experiences. Speaking on behalf of other guys that try to be decent and not monsters, I appreciate that you still make the effort to trust. That sort of PTSD can be a real waking nightmare, but hopefully you have people in your life who stand with you.
 
2012-11-05 12:13:52 AM

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


No no no, if you feel uncomfortable in that situation it's YOU who has a problem, not him. Likewise if say your 6 year old daughter were to end up in a shower alone with him you shouldn't feel queasy at all, after all he says he's a woman so it's fine. He's a woman who looks like a man, who has a penis, likes having sex with women and is kinky and horny but he's still a woman. Perfectly normal and healthy so don't sweat your daughter being in that shower with him.
 
2012-11-05 12:14:45 AM
Chances are that if a trans-woman changes in a men's changing room she will probably be harassed or worse.
If a trans-woman changes in a women's changing room the women will fear being harassed or worse.
There isn't a a good solution other than making sexual harassment and assault a lot more rare than it is to the point where we could all change together without anxiety.
Really the two categories are potential rapists' changing room and potential victims' changing room. Having a penis in breast puts you firmly in both categories and there is no room for that.
 
2012-11-05 12:29:04 AM
"My family was so poor that if I hadn't been born a boy, I wouldn't of had anything to play with."

~Rodney Dangerfield
 
2012-11-05 12:29:09 AM

Kevin72: crabsno termites: austerity101:

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?

/Sorry
//Was hanging too low not to pick.

Falwell is dead. He died and went to hell. For eating so much Virginia ham sandwiches that he began to look pig faced---not kosher.


Haven't stayed up with preachers since the '70's when Robert Tilton went screaming out the back gat in his SUV while the Feds were screaming in the front gate
in theirs. Really miss him - best comedy on TV at that time, especially for Sunday morning. My, how that man could simper!
 
2012-11-05 12:34:49 AM

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


99.9% of your post was in agreement with most rational human thoughts on this thread
I know you want to be progressive but this case can NOT be your calling to defend Colleens right to show PENIS to 6 year olds
 
2012-11-05 12:39:21 AM

moothemagiccow: jetzzfan: wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?

Y chromosome locker room, obviously.


No.
 
2012-11-05 12:45:29 AM
does it make sense that most of society be made uncomfortable so that a handful of people feel a little more comfortable? this isn't like putting in a ramp for a guy in a wheelchair. this isn't asking a business that has the privelege of selling goods to the public to spend a little of the profit to make it accesible to everyone. this actually puts a real phsycological burden on a lot of women. I thought we were all about pragmatism and doing what made the most sense for the collective.
 
2012-11-05 01:13:59 AM

HotWingAgenda: morgantx: I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.

I'm not quote the rest of that because, frankly, it looked very difficult to compose and type, much less have to read all over again. But you made several valid points.

On a side note, as a guy I have an unsettlingly large number of female friends with your experiences. Speaking on behalf of other guys that try to be decent and not monsters, I appreciate that you still make the effort to trust. That sort of PTSD can be a real waking nightmare, but hopefully you have people in your life who stand with you.


Studies say 1 in 3 adult women in America has been raped or sexually assaulted. On the one hand, it's hard to believe. On the other hand, I don't really know that many women who haven't been raped, so it kind of sounds legitimate.

At this point, it's not really something that affects me that strongly. I never feel nervous like that in groups, just with individuals. In public, no problem. I'm a lot stronger than I used to be. And in private with someone I trust? Not a problem. In private but clothed? Maybe a little awkward (like, say, a public elevator), but no big deal. But in private but naked? I'm going to be uncomfortable, not with THEIR nudity, but with mine. And it's not about exposure, but about feeling vulnerable. I would be nervous to shower in a locker room behind a flimsy curtain with a male in the room, for example. Probably the same reason I can't stand GYNs... It's the feeling of vulnerability. And it doesn't matter how nice YOU (generic) are - it's about whether I feel comfortable being completely vulnerable in your presence.

I can't explain it. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it does. Being fully nude in the presence of others is a problem for a LOT of women. Being topless is a problem for some women. I know women who won't even go fully nude in the presence of their own spouses!

relcec: does it make sense that most of society be made uncomfortable so that a handful of people feel a little more comfortable? this isn't like putting in a ramp for a guy in a wheelchair. this isn't asking a business that has the privelege of selling goods to the public to spend a little of the profit to make it accesible to everyone. this actually puts a real phsycological burden on a lot of women. I thought we were all about pragmatism and doing what made the most sense for the collective.


I think this is what bothers me. At what point do the rights of one person overrule the rights of all the other people? What if I have a weird phobia of people touching me but I have no car. Do I have the right to demand that my fellow passengers on a cramped city bus or subway avoid accidentally touching me? If you want to get technical, "unwanted physical contact" constitutes assault and battery, even if that contact is accidentally brushing against somebody's hand. But how far can I go to have my phobia accommodated? Can I demand that the transit authority remove passengers from the bus if they're crowding me? Can I demand that - since that's not realistic - the city provide me with a car and driver so that I'll never have to be bothered by my phobia? What if I could overcome my phobia by wearing gloves? Would I have the right then to insist that the subway car be cleared of passengers because forcing me to wear gloves "infringes upon my right"?

I'm not going to argue about whether Colleen is a girl or a guy, whether it's right or wrong; that's not the point. But IF we presume that she has a legitimate right to use the ladies' locker room, then the question becomes, how far will we go to accommodate her? And at what cost to the rest of the people who may have a need to use that restroom? One of the articles I saw said that the girls' swim teams have been changing in a small room less than half the size of the locker room so that they can avoid seeing Colleen's boy parts; is it fair to move several entire TEAMS of girls to accommodate this one person? Where do we draw the line?
 
2012-11-05 01:21:48 AM

crabsno termites: What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?


Im all for having seperate bathrooms,
Men,
Women,
Trannys and Jerry Falwell.
 
2012-11-05 02:02:39 AM
Most locker rooms have stalls. Just change in one, noone complains. And yeah, you may have to wear a swimsuits if you are differently equipped. Sorry that life isn't fair.

Incidently, I saw women bringing kids into the women's change room at the gym. Plenty of naked women in there and some lady is parading her eight year old son through the place. I never stripped down past bra and panties, but even then I don't want some little kid seeing me in my skivvies.
 
2012-11-05 02:07:42 AM

octopied: Most locker rooms have stalls. Just change in one, noone complains. And yeah, you may have to wear a swimsuits if you are differently equipped. Sorry that life isn't fair.

Incidently, I saw women bringing kids into the women's change room at the gym. Plenty of naked women in there and some lady is parading her eight year old son through the place. I never stripped down past bra and panties, but even then I don't want some little kid seeing me in my skivvies.


You sound old.

/So am I
//Perhaps that's why we have at least a little modesty.
///Lost most of mine in Army.
 
2012-11-05 04:36:55 AM

austerity101: This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.


How would you solve the problem, other than by having either completely mixed group changing rooms or completely separate individual changing rooms?
 
2012-11-05 04:44:23 AM

austerity101: It's state law. These people have no power, and the school has already mentioned this. WA law does not allow for the discrimination of people based on gender identity.


Are you saying that self-identified women with penises should be allowed to display them in women's changing rooms but that self-identified men with penises should not be allowed to display them in women's changing rooms? Because that's discrimination based on gender identity, you know.
 
2012-11-05 04:47:10 AM

austerity101: Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


And therefore illegal.
 
2012-11-05 05:07:18 AM

austerity101: topcon: "I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

Because we definitely don't let lesbians use women's locker rooms.


Ah, but as long as a lesbian isn't making obvious remarks or keeps staring at other women no one will know and no one will feel uncomfortble. This is probably the main issue. People feel vulnerable when naked, add something to the environment which reduces the perceived safety of the environment and they will try to remove it.

In this case the something was a someone. People passing by will just see the penis, they don't know the entire history of the person. So depending on how feminine a person looks, well, lets just say that,people who are feeling vulnerable aren't really interested in someone's life story. Especially if their children are involved.

If the person in tfa had boobs (and shaves/no longer has facial hair) then a simple towel would probably suffice.
 
2012-11-05 07:04:32 AM
I'm conflicted on this one...

The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.

Baryogenesis: Any other "think of the children" or "puritanical helicopter parents" article would be met with nothing but disdain here on fark, but I guess we have to make an exception since the person is transgendered.


bingo.

...unfortunately, this might be one of the rare instances where the trans-haters actually have a point -I can understand people not really feeling comfortable getting "locker-room" naked around her if she's pre-op and 45 at a college. The bathroom shouldn't be problem since everyone get's their own stall, but the locker room is much more close.
At the same time though, it's not really fair to her to tell her she has to use the male locker room either.... so I don't know; it's difficult. There must be an extra room somewhere in the building, for staff or something, where she can go until she has surgery.
 
2012-11-05 07:11:06 AM
To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license changed to say you are a female. Passport too, if you've got one.

Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room. Okay, wanna jack off now? Go ahead. Oh, yeah, you haven't been able to "get it up" in a year and your eyes have started to turn towards guys slowly.

/Had a transgender friend in college
//Learned a lot about the whole thing, she had to go through a helluva lot.
 
2012-11-05 07:26:28 AM

Silverstaff: Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room.


You're saying that someone who hasn't done all that should not be allowed to use the ladies' locker room, regardless of their gender identity?
 
2012-11-05 07:27:31 AM

cassanovascotian: The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.


This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.
 
2012-11-05 07:36:21 AM

Silverstaff: To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license ...


The point is, the law isn't really clear, is it? Do you have to "officially" be labeled a woman by a psychiatrist? Or is it enough just to claim you've been living as a woman for ten years or something?
 
2012-11-05 07:37:40 AM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.


dontgiveupworld.com

What I said was that this might be one of the rare cases in which it makes a modicum of sense to say that she shouldn't be using the locker room. So some other kind of solution needs to be found.

That being said, as a general rule, the hostility against trans people that gets expressed in the vast majority of fark threads goes way beyond any legitimate privacy concern, and most often comes from a place of hate and prejudice. 

/By the way, your post makes no farking sense. There are going to be 6-year-olds in the male locker room too, y'know
 
2012-11-05 07:54:08 AM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.


I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.
 
2012-11-05 07:56:03 AM

orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.


Yes it is! You're an evil heteronormative patriarchical oppressor!
 
2012-11-05 08:12:29 AM

Silverstaff: To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license changed to say you are a female. Passport too, if you've got one.

Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room. Okay, wanna jack off now? Go ahead. Oh, yeah, you haven't been able to "get it up" in a year and your eyes have started to turn towards guys slowly.

/Had a transgender friend in college
//Learned a lot about the whole thing, she had to go through a helluva lot.


Getting the gender on your drivers license changed requires filling out a single form and a note from a doctor.
 
2012-11-05 08:14:07 AM

orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.


Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.
 
2012-11-05 08:16:42 AM

cassanovascotian: orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.

Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.


A little different when it''s a six year old girl, and flagrant exhibitionism.
 
2012-11-05 08:19:10 AM

cassanovascotian: Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.


How do you know it was a gay dude and not a straight woman? Remember that the presence or absence of a penis is not enough to make the distinction.

Ian
 
2012-11-05 08:23:59 AM

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: A little different when it''s a six year old girl, and flagrant exhibitionism.


If it were flagrant exhibitionism, then yes, that would be different. We don't really know the situation though.

It amazes me how you seem to think that trans people who just want to live their lives, and do the same things everyone else wants to do should be immediately labelled "exhibitionists." You don't think it's possible that maybe they just wanna work out?
 
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