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(Yahoo)   University approved penis show in the women's locker room at Evergreen College   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 372
    More: Asinine, evergreens, Evergreen College, KOMO, faith-based, discrimination law, uproars, penis, gender identity  
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19116 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Nov 2012 at 5:17 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



372 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-04 04:08:42 PM  
C'mon, the human wang is a beautiful thang.

photos1.blogger.com
 
2012-11-04 04:18:46 PM  
www.tools-set.com

This is actually what Plastic Surgeons use.
 
2012-11-04 05:20:22 PM  
Identifies as a female? Bet even a blind person could identify him as male.
 
2012-11-04 05:20:54 PM  
When you cut it off, then you can use the women's room
 
2012-11-04 05:21:27 PM  
Evergreen. What a surprise.
 
2012-11-04 05:22:10 PM  
Welcome to Romney's America.
 
2012-11-04 05:22:46 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Evergreen. What a surprise.


Zackly
 
2012-11-04 05:24:17 PM  
And if he for some reason committed a crime and left behind DNA evidence, I'm sure the authorities would be searching for a female, right?
 
2012-11-04 05:25:26 PM  
Asinine of the transphobes.
 
2012-11-04 05:26:42 PM  
So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?
 
2012-11-04 05:27:46 PM  
She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.
 
2012-11-04 05:27:58 PM  

hbk72777: When you cut it off, then you can use the women's room


Weed wack the sum biatch
 
2012-11-04 05:28:34 PM  
The Alliance Defending Freedom, an Arizona-based religious liberties group, sent a letter to Evergreen College on Friday

Isn't freedom the thing at fault here? I'm pretty sure these are the wrong folks for the job.
 
2012-11-04 05:28:51 PM  
"put them in possible future harm"? Sounds like Extortion to get them to change the policy, Fark that, Equal rights for all, also sounds like someone is fishing for some money.
 
2012-11-04 05:29:03 PM  
This is why I change at home and drive to the rink.
 
2012-11-04 05:30:01 PM  
Ahh, trans-gendered people. The Achilles heel of the modern feminist social justice movement...
 
2012-11-04 05:30:07 PM  
The solution is to build 5 locker rooms. One for M, one for F, one for now M was F, one for now F was M, and one for those who identify as none of the above/alien/5th dimensional being/etc.
 
2012-11-04 05:30:09 PM  

moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?


Uhm....she wasn't jerking it? She was changing her clothes? And yeah, if you changed your name to Debbie and lived as a woman and identified as a woman, and took all the crap you have to take as a trans person, you would get to change in the locker room that fit your gender identity.

But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.

Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.

/student at tesc
 
2012-11-04 05:30:19 PM  
One boner in the locker room and she would be history in my book.
 
2012-11-04 05:30:32 PM  
This is what happens when we get all excepting and what not!

Or; we could try to grow out of the whole puritanical body shaming thing.

/ but that would mean more wienies in the ladies locker room

// I keed, I keed
 
2012-11-04 05:30:38 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


How'd yer under-10 swim meet go Susie? Oh, terribly? Because you caught a big hairy cock flopping out of some lace panties? I can't sympathize with you Susie, chicks have dicks. Grow the fark up.
 
2012-11-04 05:30:41 PM  
I'm surprised that Evergreen still has gendered locking rooms.
 
2012-11-04 05:31:30 PM  

moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?


You'd have to get breast implants first. But of course then you'd never have to leave the house, so the point is moot.
 
2012-11-04 05:31:33 PM  

moothemagiccow: The Alliance Defending Freedom, an Arizona-based religious liberties group, sent a letter to Evergreen College on Friday

Isn't freedom the thing at fault here? I'm pretty sure these are the wrong folks for the job.


Came here to point out whenever a group has "freedom" in their name, and they are religion based, freedom is the LAST thing they are interested in.
 
2012-11-04 05:33:15 PM  
FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Transgenders dont bother me in the least. Suspended adolescents however...
 
2012-11-04 05:33:17 PM  

epoch_destroi: moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?

Uhm....she wasn't jerking it? She was changing her clothes? And yeah, if you changed your name to Debbie and lived as a woman and identified as a woman, and took all the crap you have to take as a trans person, you would get to change in the locker room that fit your gender identity.

But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.

Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.

/student at tesc


It's cool, I'll jerk it afterward. These were my intentions, not the tranny.

//locker rooms are weird enough places as it is
 
2012-11-04 05:33:20 PM  

moothemagiccow: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.

How'd yer under-10 swim meet go Susie? Oh, terribly? Because you caught a big hairy cock flopping out of some lace panties? I can't sympathize with you Susie, chicks have dicks. Grow the fark up.


How about, how'd your swim meet go?

Oh, you saw somebody with weird junk? Well, many people are born with different types of privates. But it's not polite to watch other people change, OK?
 
2012-11-04 05:34:14 PM  
Have a penis? Use the Men's locker room.
Don't have a penis? Use the Women's locker room.
Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.
 
2012-11-04 05:35:39 PM  

moothemagiccow: How'd yer under-10 swim meet go Susie? Oh, terribly? Because you caught a big hairy cock flopping out of some lace panties? I can't sympathize with you Susie, chicks have dicks. Grow the fark up.


Frightened, angry and repressed is no way to go through life...
 
2012-11-04 05:35:49 PM  
Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected, but the fact is that no amount of political correct happy thoughts makes a person who still has a penis female enough to change in the women's locker room, regardless of their psychological gender.
 
2012-11-04 05:36:00 PM  

Mr. Potatoass: Have a penis? Use the Men's locker room.
Don't have a penis? Use the Women's locker room.
Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.


Yeah, fark gender variant and intersex people! If you have a visible physical disability of any sort, or are sort of androgynous, you should stay the fark out of the gym and the pool, too!
 
2012-11-04 05:36:36 PM  

TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Transgenders dont bother me in the least. Suspended adolescents however...


Maybe you haven't noticed, but the economy is for shiat. A lot of older people returning to college.
 
2012-11-04 05:36:49 PM  
No greener worth his or her salt should care. After all, the school mascot is a geoduck so phallic it would make Lexington Steele blush with envy.

/tesc grad
//2 degrees in liberal nonsense! Woo!
 
2012-11-04 05:36:59 PM  
Any other "think of the children" or "puritanical helicopter parents" article would be met with nothing but disdain here on fark, but I guess we have to make an exception since the person is transgendered.
 
2012-11-04 05:37:42 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected, but the fact is that no amount of political correct happy thoughts makes a person who still has a penis female enough to change in the women's locker room, regardless of their psychological gender.


Great. You're opinion is duly noted. It's ignorant, but duly noted.
 
2012-11-04 05:37:44 PM  

Baryogenesis: Any other "think of the children" or "puritanical helicopter parents" article would be met with nothing but disdain here on fark, but I guess we have to make an exception since the person is transgendered.


For real.
 
2012-11-04 05:38:29 PM  

mediablitz: A lot of older people returning to college.


Im sure that Gender Studies degree will carry her right to the moon.
 
2012-11-04 05:38:56 PM  

Nick Nostril: moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?

You'd have to get breast implants first. But of course then you'd never have to leave the house, so the point is moot.


what if my cheeto'd manboobs fit in a B cup?
 
2012-11-04 05:39:20 PM  

Baryogenesis: Any other "think of the children" or "puritanical helicopter parents" article would be met with nothing but disdain here on fark, but I guess we have to make an exception since the person is transgendered.


Well, they are different, therefore SCARY.

Fark is too busy being misogynistic to check the double standard?
 
2012-11-04 05:39:42 PM  
If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.
 
2012-11-04 05:40:06 PM  
Apparently the bigots are out in force today. Shouldn't you people be out oppressing someone?
 
2012-11-04 05:40:18 PM  

TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.


Not everyone starts college around 18 years of age and limits their education to one continuous period. Perhaps becoming more educated and possibly obtaining a new degree is "getting on with life" for this person.
 
2012-11-04 05:40:23 PM  

Mr. Potatoass: Have a penis? Use the Men's locker room.
Don't have a penis? Use the Women's locker room.
Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.


It would be even more simple to remove the apparently slippery gender identifications from the locker rooms themselves. Instead of Men's and Women's locker rooms, you would have a locker room for the Penised and another for the Non-Penised. Easy. Imagine the easy to read graphics on the doors.
 
2012-11-04 05:40:49 PM  

TomD9938: mediablitz: A lot of older people returning to college.

Im sure that Gender Studies degree will carry her right to the moon.


Hmmm. Even judgmental about what OTHER people find interesting as a pursuit.
 
2012-11-04 05:41:51 PM  

oren0: If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.


Here's the thing-- she wasn't sauntering around dick-first; she was changing and people walked by her and saw, while she was putting on clothes-- that she had a penis.
 
2012-11-04 05:42:08 PM  

epoch_destroi: Yeah, fark gender variant and intersex people! If you have a visible physical disability of any sort, or are sort of androgynous, you should stay the fark out of the gym and the pool, too!


Discretion is a thing. As crazy as this may sound, it's possible to go to the gym or pool and change in such a way that no one sees your genitalia. This "lady" was hanging out nude in the sauna. You have to draw the line somewhere.
 
2012-11-04 05:43:01 PM  

mediablitz: TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Transgenders dont bother me in the least. Suspended adolescents however...

Maybe you haven't noticed, but the economy is for shiat. A lot of older people returning to college.


Evergreen is probably the worst place to go if you want a new career path that's going to earn you a living.
 
2012-11-04 05:43:25 PM  

epoch_destroi: oren0: If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.

Here's the thing-- she wasn't sauntering around dick-first; she was changing and people walked by her and saw, while she was putting on clothes-- that she had a penis.


Know how I know you didn't read the article?
 
2012-11-04 05:44:14 PM  

epoch_destroi: Here's the thing-- she wasn't sauntering around dick-first; she was changing and people walked by her and saw, while she was putting on clothes-- that she had a penis.


It was obviously more than that, given that TFA says she was hanging out naked in the sauna. Use a towel or privacy curtain. At a minimum, change in a corner with your back turned. These are solveable problems.
 
2012-11-04 05:44:47 PM  

mediablitz: TomD9938: mediablitz: A lot of older people returning to college.

Im sure that Gender Studies degree will carry her right to the moon.

Hmmm. Even judgmental about what OTHER people find interesting as a pursuit.


Finding it interesting is one thing. I'm never going to tell anyone they shouldn't get any degree. The OP's premise was the economy was bad and a liberal arts college was the answer.
 
2012-11-04 05:44:52 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected, but the fact is that no amount of political correct happy thoughts makes a person who still has a penis female enough to change in the women's locker room, regardless of their psychological gender.


I'm going to say that the first part of your sentence is false...
 
2012-11-04 05:46:07 PM  

jimmythrust: No greener worth his or her salt should care. After all, the school mascot is a geoduck so phallic it would make Lexington Steele blush with envy.

/tesc grad
//2 degrees in liberal nonsense! Woo!


I doubt any greener DOES care, which is why it is parents of children using the locker room complaining. She should have some consideration for those people however, it's not as if her specific circumstances are commonly taking place across the nation. We expect smokers to be considerate of others with their cigarettes and that IS commonly occurring everywhere.

/also TESC grad
//and it's THE Evergreen... yada yada
 
2012-11-04 05:46:16 PM  
It has a penis it's a HE. Wanna chop it off Ok we will talk If you still have a penis one must assume you are using that penis. You are man.
 
2012-11-04 05:46:25 PM  

Bisu: TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Not everyone starts college around 18 years of age and limits their education to one continuous period. Perhaps becoming more educated and possibly obtaining a new degree is "getting on with life" for this person.


And hanging out in a sauna evidently.

The only older people I've known attending that late in life were bored wives.

If she doesnt need the money and is doing it for kicks, great. If it's a career move... what's she been doing the last twenty years?
 
2012-11-04 05:46:30 PM  
This woman sounds like a bit of a dick.
 
2012-11-04 05:46:40 PM  

Bisu: epoch_destroi: oren0: If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.

Here's the thing-- she wasn't sauntering around dick-first; she was changing and people walked by her and saw, while she was putting on clothes-- that she had a penis.
oren0: epoch_destroi: Here's the thing-- she wasn't sauntering around dick-first; she was changing and people walked by her and saw, while she was putting on clothes-- that she had a penis.

It was obviously more than that, given that TFA says she was hanging out naked in the sauna. Use a towel or privacy curtain. At a minimum, change in a corner with your back turned. These are solveable problems.


Know how I know you didn't read the article?


It's a nude sauna, just gonna point that out. The sauna rules recommend you sit on a towel, not wear one.
 
2012-11-04 05:46:42 PM  
Grand Poohbah
I'm surprised that Evergreen still has gendered locking rooms.
 
2012-11-04 05:47:15 PM  
Either get the lopitoffectomy or STFU and use the men's room. Nobody wants to see your pecker but at least in the men's room we're not going to be surprised to see Tiny Tim hanging around
 
2012-11-04 05:47:34 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible ...

no ... person who still has a penis [is] female enough to change in the women's locker room, regardless of their psychological gender.


When coming from the same person, one of these statements is a lie.

/at least I got to tag a lot of farmers as transphobic or as genuinely open-minded
 
2012-11-04 05:47:59 PM  
She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.
 
2012-11-04 05:48:29 PM  
My HS went through this when one of the teachers decided to pursue a sex change. Since it involved a lot of stages, there was certainly the 'wang in the women's restroom' debate, prior to the snipping.
 
2012-11-04 05:48:44 PM  

evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.


^^^THIS
 
2012-11-04 05:49:28 PM  
NSFW penis show.
 
2012-11-04 05:49:36 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


I completely agree with everything you said. Populations are becoming larger and more diverse all the time. People need to start respecting complex sexual identity.
 
2012-11-04 05:50:07 PM  
I banned a woman-identifying transgendered male (and deaf as well!) from the college pool for doing exactly this after i told him not to... school backed me up.
 
2012-11-04 05:50:07 PM  

mediablitz: TomD9938: mediablitz: A lot of older people returning to college.

Im sure that Gender Studies degree will carry her right to the moon.

Hmmm. Even judgmental about what OTHER people find interesting as a pursuit.


The original implication was that older people are returning to college in order to improve their chances of employment.
The comment was related to the fact that a degree in gender studies actually makes you far less employable than having no degree.
 
2012-11-04 05:50:54 PM  
To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?
 
2012-11-04 05:51:37 PM  

oren0: If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.


Ever been to a men's locker room? The old men have no shame, unfortunately
 
2012-11-04 05:51:47 PM  

Rationale: jimmythrust: No greener worth his or her salt should care. After all, the school mascot is a geoduck so phallic it would make Lexington Steele blush with envy.

/tesc grad
//2 degrees in liberal nonsense! Woo!

I doubt any greener DOES care, which is why it is parents of children using the locker room complaining. She should have some consideration for those people however, it's not as if her specific circumstances are commonly taking place across the nation. We expect smokers to be considerate of others with their cigarettes and that IS commonly occurring everywhere.

/also TESC grad
//and it's THE Evergreen... yada yada



True enough, but isn't Evergreen's motto still Omnia Extares--loosely translated as "let it all hang out"? This student should be commended for embodying the school's esprit des corps!
 
2012-11-04 05:52:17 PM  
If I self-identify as a black lesbian, can I get minority scholarships? Really, if it is how I think of myself that matters...
 
2012-11-04 05:54:15 PM  
We should be supporting this person. Think of it: if this opens up, all we'll need to do in the future to get our voyeuristic freak-on is to make the claim that we identify as a woman! Then it's all the nude ogling we want!
 
2012-11-04 05:54:25 PM  

evoke: Biology has nothing to do with gender.


media.moddb.com
 
2012-11-04 05:55:16 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


I'm not afraid afraid of penis, trannies or any of it but I sure wouldn't want to see hers flopping about. When it gets removed she can use the ladies facilities.
 
2012-11-04 05:56:33 PM  
Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.
 
2012-11-04 05:56:50 PM  

evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.


What? Biology has everything to do with gender.
 
2012-11-04 05:57:28 PM  
Fark Rye For Many Whores
media.moddb.com

You may be thinking of "sex".
 
2012-11-04 05:59:40 PM  

epoch_destroi: It's a nude sauna, just gonna point that out. The sauna rules recommend you sit on a towel, not wear one.


Common sense recommends that you wear a towel anyway if you have the opposite junk of everyone else in the sauna. This is doubly true if some of those people are young children.
 
2012-11-04 06:00:11 PM  
Why aren't guys ever in an uproar over a transgendered male using their locker room? HMMMM??
 
2012-11-04 06:00:13 PM  

evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.


This is why we can't have nice education.
 
2012-11-04 06:00:30 PM  

Skyred: evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.

What? Biology has everything to do with gender.


Welcome to Gender Studies 101.

Your first essay is "Why Common Sense and Scientific Fact are Tools of the Oppressive Hegemonic Kyriarchy". 5000 words; due on Friday.
 
2012-11-04 06:01:25 PM  

jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.


What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?
 
2012-11-04 06:02:29 PM  

wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?


Y chromosome locker room, obviously.
 
2012-11-04 06:03:24 PM  

oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?


in the perfect world scenario people would be able to be naked among each other, sex or age regardless. i think it goes astray when people start associating sexuality with nudity, or shame, or whatever else may cloud a clear thinking mind. people are raised different ways with different ideas and beliefs, so it gets uncomfortable pretty quickly.

that's why not everyone goes to the nudist colony / beaches.
 
2012-11-04 06:03:27 PM  

epoch_destroi: But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.


Now who's being naive?
 
2012-11-04 06:03:32 PM  

Skyred: evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.

What? Biology has everything to do with gender.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction
 
2012-11-04 06:04:11 PM  

Skyred: Why aren't guys ever in an uproar over a transgendered male using their locker room? HMMMM??


Because when I implement WhippingBoy's idea I want no weeners REAL OR OTHERWISE in my field of view.
 
2012-11-04 06:05:04 PM  

KrispyKritter: oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?

in the perfect world scenario people would be able to be naked among each other, sex or age regardless. i think it goes astray when people start associating sexuality with nudity, or shame, or whatever else may cloud a clear thinking mind. people are raised different ways with different ideas and beliefs, so it gets uncomfortable pretty quickly.

that's why not everyone goes to the nudist colony / beaches.


But people whose ideas and beliefs are different than mine are wrong. Why should I make any attempt whatsoever to respect them?
 
2012-11-04 06:05:41 PM  
This dude deserves the mandom medal of honor. I would totally enroll in a class if I could get a VIP pass to the local colleges' female locker room!

The dude is a ROCK STAR!
 
2012-11-04 06:05:58 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected


ThatGuyFromTheInternet: If I self-identify as a black lesbian, can I get minority scholarships? Really, if it is how I think of myself that matters...


Again, you can't actually believe both of these things. I'm going to go with the first one being the lie you tell yourself and others to seem like you actually understand and respect people different from yourself.
 
2012-11-04 06:06:29 PM  
This whole mess is trivially easy to solve. Just eliminate male and female "public" facilities. Take half of the existing space and divide it up into private individual/couple/family spaces (sink, toilet, shower, dressing area). Make the other half completely unisex and 18+ only. Put the lockers in a neutral "no nudity" area.

Problem solved. You and your precious snowflakes never have to be exposed to genetic anomalies, "lifestyle choices", mutants, exhibitionists, or general perverts. Facilities end up using the exact same amount of plumbing and electrical hardware, with just a few extra walls, the cost of which could be offset by installing coin-operated glory holes between the private spaces.
 
2012-11-04 06:07:02 PM  
I'm wanting to get in touch with my feminine side..and your daughter's.

/giggity
 
2012-11-04 06:07:28 PM  

FirstNationalBastard: C'mon, the human wang is a beautiful thang.

[photos1.blogger.com image 293x450]


ts4.mm.bing.netts3.mm.bing.net
 
2012-11-04 06:07:54 PM  

jimmythrust: Rationale: jimmythrust: No greener worth his or her salt should care. After all, the school mascot is a geoduck so phallic it would make Lexington Steele blush with envy.

/tesc grad
//2 degrees in liberal nonsense! Woo!

I doubt any greener DOES care, which is why it is parents of children using the locker room complaining. She should have some consideration for those people however, it's not as if her specific circumstances are commonly taking place across the nation. We expect smokers to be considerate of others with their cigarettes and that IS commonly occurring everywhere.

/also TESC grad
//and it's THE Evergreen... yada yada


True enough, but isn't Evergreen's motto still Omnia Extares--loosely translated as "let it all hang out"? This student should be commended for embodying the school's esprit des corps!


I would agree if you had managed to work in either of the words 'paradigm' or 'extant' into your post. Bonus for both!
 
2012-11-04 06:07:57 PM  
Also, for all of you out there screaming about surgery...who should pay for it?

Let's take your argument seriously, that no matter how much a woman someone is, we cannot recognize it until she has her accident of birth removed.

Will this surgery be available to all, regardless of income and insurance?

If not, how do you justify treating only those women with enough money to get the surgery as women, and not those who cannot afford it? Rights shouldn't be based on what you can and cannot afford.
 
2012-11-04 06:08:18 PM  
HelenLoveJoy.jpg

please!
 
2012-11-04 06:08:31 PM  

Buzzerguy: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: If I self-identify as a black lesbian, can I get minority scholarships? Really, if it is how I think of myself that matters...

Again, you can't actually believe both of these things. I'm going to go with the first one being the lie you tell yourself and others to seem like you actually understand and respect people different from yourself.


Yes, by disagreeing on one issue, I hat all dissimilar persons. You've got me there.
 
2012-11-04 06:08:41 PM  

wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?


Well, then she's a witch.
 
2012-11-04 06:09:07 PM  

Fark Rye For Many Whores: Skyred: Why aren't guys ever in an uproar over a transgendered male using their locker room? HMMMM??

Because when I implement WhippingBoy's idea I want no weeners REAL OR OTHERWISE in my field of view.


I'm beginning to appreciate the work this "woman" is doing for us men
 
2012-11-04 06:09:26 PM  

oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?


I assume women don't want to get oogled by guys - that seems fair.

Should we? We should probably all GTF over naked people, but so long as that's not happening it seems ok.

Children have no effect on that. The sooner they learn that people are different, the better. If a penis minding its own business scars your five year old, you've failed as a parent.
 
2012-11-04 06:10:00 PM  

TomD9938: Bisu: TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Not everyone starts college around 18 years of age and limits their education to one continuous period. Perhaps becoming more educated and possibly obtaining a new degree is "getting on with life" for this person.

And hanging out in a sauna evidently.

The only older people I've known attending that late in life were bored wives.

If she doesnt need the money and is doing it for kicks, great. If it's a career move... what's she been doing the last twenty years?


Saving up for college/working a job she was content with/raising a family/something else? Are you really that isolated from society that you didn't realize not everyone's life is the same as yours? Not everyone knows and sets forth on the definitive path for their life in their early twenties.
 
2012-11-04 06:10:03 PM  

Mashaka: Skyred: evoke: She is a woman, ok? Biology has nothing to do with gender. That's what these parents should tell their kids.

What? Biology has everything to do with gender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction


Don't you try to feed me your propaganda
 
2012-11-04 06:11:21 PM  

KrispyKritter: oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?

in the perfect world scenario people would be able to be naked among each other, sex or age regardless. i think it goes astray when people start associating sexuality with nudity, or shame, or whatever else may cloud a clear thinking mind. people are raised different ways with different ideas and beliefs, so it gets uncomfortable pretty quickly.

that's why not everyone goes to the nudist colony / beaches.


In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.

If you're saying people should use the locker room they "identify with", what you're really saying is that the sign on the door should be a non-enforceable suggestion ("I wasn't peeping, officer, I just identify as a woman").
 
2012-11-04 06:11:57 PM  

Buzzerguy: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Okay, I'm as pro-LGBT rights as possible and realize that transgendered people have a terrible burden in life trough no fault of their own and should have their rights respected

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: If I self-identify as a black lesbian, can I get minority scholarships? Really, if it is how I think of myself that matters...

Again, you can't actually believe both of these things. I'm going to go with the first one being the lie you tell yourself and others to seem like you actually understand and respect people different from yourself.


Agreed, but since Fark comments isn't the place where people solve cognitive dissonance problems, I suggest you report to the nearest gay bar, early in the evening while everyone's mostly sober, and strike up a conversation about this article and the issues surrounding it, slowly getting drunker and drunker. By the end of the night, everything'll clear up.
 
2012-11-04 06:12:21 PM  

soundguy: This whole mess is trivially easy to solve. Just eliminate male and female "public" facilities. Take half of the existing space and divide it up into private individual/couple/family spaces (sink, toilet, shower, dressing area). Make the other half completely unisex and 18+ only. Put the lockers in a neutral "no nudity" area.

Problem solved. You and your precious snowflakes never have to be exposed to genetic anomalies, "lifestyle choices", mutants, exhibitionists, or general perverts. Facilities end up using the exact same amount of plumbing and electrical hardware, with just a few extra walls, the cost of which could be offset by installing coin-operated glory holes between the private spaces.


It's only trivial in an academic world. In the real world, a great deal of resources (money, work, time) would need to be expended to convert all of the existing public change rooms to what you're suggesting. How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?
 
2012-11-04 06:12:26 PM  

rockforever: HelenLoveJoy.jpg

please!


hellzya.org
 
2012-11-04 06:12:38 PM  

Bisu: TomD9938: Bisu: TomD9938: FTA : 45-year-old college student

Get on with your life already.

Not everyone starts college around 18 years of age and limits their education to one continuous period. Perhaps becoming more educated and possibly obtaining a new degree is "getting on with life" for this person.

And hanging out in a sauna evidently.

The only older people I've known attending that late in life were bored wives.

If she doesnt need the money and is doing it for kicks, great. If it's a career move... what's she been doing the last twenty years?

Saving up for college/working a job she was content with/raising a family/something else? Are you really that isolated from society that you didn't realize not everyone's life is the same as yours? Not everyone knows and sets forth on the definitive path for their life in their early twenties.


Given the make-up of the older students on campus, chances are high that she's a veteran. Evergreen has a lot of scholarships and waivers that make it a magnet for vets who've finished their service to get a degree from.
 
2012-11-04 06:13:26 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Yes, by disagreeing on one issue, I hat all dissimilar persons. You've got me there.


I am unconcerned about your hat.

But you can't say you're as pro-Trans as possible and also say that trans people should be denied the facilities appropriate to their gender because somebody might see the wrong genitals. Or that such people should be forced behind a wall when other people are not. Or that someone is "trans" simply because he or she says so to get a look at members of the opposite sex, which is the most insulting and infuriating thing I've read here today.

A transwoman is a woman. She uses women's facilities. People who don't want to see her genitals should do the same thing as women in that locker room who don't want to see an old woman's sagging tits or Honey BooBoo Child's mother's giant rolls of fat or the stump of an amputee: DON'T LOOK.

/equal means equal
 
2012-11-04 06:13:35 PM  

epoch_destroi: Also, for all of you out there screaming about surgery...who should pay for it?

Let's take your argument seriously, that no matter how much a woman someone is, we cannot recognize it until she has her accident of birth removed.

Will this surgery be available to all, regardless of income and insurance?

If not, how do you justify treating only those women with enough money to get the surgery as women, and not those who cannot afford it? Rights shouldn't be based on what you can and cannot afford.


Of course! Gubmint surgery. In fact lets call it Obama surgery! IZ ALL FREE STUFF!!!

Obama phone
 
2012-11-04 06:14:06 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?


How did you feel about the person reported on here who was born as a man, dressed as a man, identified as a lesbian woman, had no intention of undergoing a sex change - and demanded the right to use women's toilets and changing rooms? Is that OK, or is there some minimum commitment to femininity beyond saying "I'm a woman" before you get to use women's facilities?

evoke: Biology has nothing to do with gender.


Nothing beyond determining it for 99.99% of the population (and that includes trans people, if theories about hormonal effects on antenatal development are true"
 
2012-11-04 06:14:31 PM  
oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.
 
2012-11-04 06:15:05 PM  

Mr. Potatoass: Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.


No, it's $6.99 a minute for a private webshow.

And they've put up privacy curtains in the locker room because this person doesn't have meat curtains.

What this person might look like:

images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-11-04 06:16:19 PM  

Bisu: Not everyone knows and sets forth on the definitive path for their life in their early twenties.


Fourty five is too late.

The game's nearly over.
 
2012-11-04 06:16:31 PM  

oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?


Almost all swimming pools built here (UK) in the last 20 years or so have unisex "changing villages" with cubicles, which avoids this sort of problem altogether. Well, apart from odd bulges in the swimsuit, I suppose.
 
2012-11-04 06:17:15 PM  

Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.


boy I farked the formatting here. Mod, please delete to save me embarrassment.
 
2012-11-04 06:17:20 PM  
Seriously, if you're packing sausage everyone knows you're a genetic male use the men's locker room. I don't care what genetic defect tells you to be a female your chromosomes cannot lie. Find a way to pay for your surgically enhanced axe-wound and then use the women's locker room. Christ there's a prisoner in Ma trying to get the state to pay for his sex change right now. I don't need my 11yr old daughter walking by a naked guy with tits, hog hanging out, do I?
 
2012-11-04 06:17:46 PM  

Buzzerguy: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Yes, by disagreeing on one issue, I hat all dissimilar persons. You've got me there.

I am unconcerned about your hat.

But you can't say you're as pro-Trans as possible and also say that trans people should be denied the facilities appropriate to their gender because somebody might see the wrong genitals. Or that such people should be forced behind a wall when other people are not. Or that someone is "trans" simply because he or she says so to get a look at members of the opposite sex, which is the most insulting and infuriating thing I've read here today.

A transwoman is a woman. She uses women's facilities. People who don't want to see her genitals should do the same thing as women in that locker room who don't want to see an old woman's sagging tits or Honey BooBoo Child's mother's giant rolls of fat or the stump of an amputee: DON'T LOOK.

/equal means equal


I think you missed the point. If you let one person with a penis use the women's locker room, then you have to let everyone with a penis use the women's locker room... it's only fair.
 
2012-11-04 06:19:23 PM  

Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.


Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?
 
2012-11-04 06:19:45 PM  
What kind of proof do I need to give when I say I identify myself as a (fill in the blank)? Cuz if none is required, this could come in handy for a lecher dude like me who would like to get a peek at the local college's ladies locker room.

/ giggity
 
2012-11-04 06:20:55 PM  
Isn't it about time we got over our puritan concepts. Nobody gets upset when children see male and female animals. Lets face it. We all have genitals, one or the other, or both. Everybody of every age has seen them, either on humans or on other animals. They are just part of our physical anatomy like hands, fingers, feet, etc. Humans associating them with sex every time we see them or refer to them is culture association. If they were not considered so "private" then the taboos would disappear. It is about time we taught our children that sex is just not only about or limited exclusively to our reproductive organs. Its more, our should be more than that. It should be about relationships, feelings, and higher level emotional responses and that sex is the sum total of all of this, not just entwining our organs. It is past time we should be embarrassed about our anatomy. If displaying it becomes the norm, they all the excitement of casually seeing it will disappear. Given that pregnancy and babies are direct results of sexual relationships, why do not people get sexually aroused when seeing these examples of it? It is because they represent the norm and nothing special as it relates to sexual relationships.

It is time we, as a culture grew up. Forget separate facilities entirely. There is nothing sexual about expelling excrement, getting clean or changing clothes. Clothing should be a matter of protection and climate along with what is event appropriate. Going nude to a dinner party or a conference would not be appropriate unless such a dress code was stated. There are many instances that clothing enhances sexual interest than detracts from it. Wear what is appropriate for the time, environment, or event. Going nude regularly every place you go is just as inappropriate as being completely covered up from head to toe with polar fleece in an Amazon rain forest with the temperature over 100 degrees and the humidity at 95 percent. All I am saying is that after thousands of years on this planet our cultures should just get over their hangups of seeing our anatomical parts.
 
2012-11-04 06:21:06 PM  

Buzzerguy: A transwoman is a woman.


Why have two different words?
 
2012-11-04 06:21:07 PM  

Nick Nostril: What kind of proof do I need to give when I say I identify myself as a (fill in the blank)? Cuz if none is required, this could come in handy for a lecher dude like me who would like to get a peek at the local college's ladies locker room.

/ giggity


Do I have to actually enroll or can we call it a Ride Along?
 
2012-11-04 06:21:48 PM  

oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?


Ohhh, you. You're just being a neanderthal.
 
2012-11-04 06:22:10 PM  

Buzzerguy: People who don't want to see her genitals should do the same thing as women in that locker room who don't want to see an old woman's sagging tits or Honey BooBoo Child's mother's giant rolls of fat or the stump of an amputee: DON'T LOOK.


Why should the majority go out of their way to accomodate the minority? If it's no big deal, why doesn't she just use the men's change room? Why is the .1% right and the 99.9% wrong?
 
2012-11-04 06:22:10 PM  

Buzzerguy: A transwoman is a woman. She uses women's facilities. People who don't want to see her genitals should do the same thing as women in that locker room who don't want to see an old woman's sagging tits or Honey BooBoo Child's mother's giant rolls of fat or the stump of an amputee: DON'T LOOK.


I'm sure this whole incident is blown out of proportion and using the the women's locker room is a benign attempt to simply change clothes or shower. But unfortunately saying you are something doesn't make it so, and separate locker rooms were created for a reason.
 
2012-11-04 06:23:03 PM  

jimw: Isn't it about time we got over our puritan concepts. Nobody gets upset when children see male and female animals. Lets face it. We all have genitals, one or the other, or both. Everybody of every age has seen them, either on humans or on other animals. They are just part of our physical anatomy like hands, fingers, feet, etc. Humans associating them with sex every time we see them or refer to them is culture association. If they were not considered so "private" then the taboos would disappear. It is about time we taught our children that sex is just not only about or limited exclusively to our reproductive organs. Its more, our should be more than that. It should be about relationships, feelings, and higher level emotional responses and that sex is the sum total of all of this, not just entwining our organs. It is past time we should be embarrassed about our anatomy. If displaying it becomes the norm, they all the excitement of casually seeing it will disappear. Given that pregnancy and babies are direct results of sexual relationships, why do not people get sexually aroused when seeing these examples of it? It is because they represent the norm and nothing special as it relates to sexual relationships.

It is time we, as a culture grew up. Forget separate facilities entirely. There is nothing sexual about expelling excrement, getting clean or changing clothes. Clothing should be a matter of protection and climate along with what is event appropriate. Going nude to a dinner party or a conference would not be appropriate unless such a dress code was stated. There are many instances that clothing enhances sexual interest than detracts from it. Wear what is appropriate for the time, environment, or event. Going nude regularly every place you go is just as inappropriate as being completely covered up from head to toe with polar fleece in an Amazon rain forest with the temperature over 100 degrees and the humidity at 95 percent. All I am saying is that after thousands ...



Perhaps you'd be happier living in France.
 
2012-11-04 06:23:26 PM  

WhippingBoy: I think you missed the point. If you let one person with a penis use the women's locker room, then you have to let everyone with a penis use the women's locker room... it's only fair.


Dude, it's Evergreen. You can enroll and create your own "Using Women's Facilities as a Man" coursework right now.
 
2012-11-04 06:23:35 PM  

meatsack_01: jimw: Isn't it about time we got over our puritan concepts. Nobody gets upset when children see male and female animals. Lets face it. We all have genitals, one or the other, or both. Everybody of every age has seen them, either on humans or on other animals. They are just part of our physical anatomy like hands, fingers, feet, etc. Humans associating them with sex every time we see them or refer to them is culture association. If they were not considered so "private" then the taboos would disappear. It is about time we taught our children that sex is just not only about or limited exclusively to our reproductive organs. Its more, our should be more than that. It should be about relationships, feelings, and higher level emotional responses and that sex is the sum total of all of this, not just entwining our organs. It is past time we should be embarrassed about our anatomy. If displaying it becomes the norm, they all the excitement of casually seeing it will disappear. Given that pregnancy and babies are direct results of sexual relationships, why do not people get sexually aroused when seeing these examples of it? It is because they represent the norm and nothing special as it relates to sexual relationships.

It is time we, as a culture grew up. Forget separate facilities entirely. There is nothing sexual about expelling excrement, getting clean or changing clothes. Clothing should be a matter of protection and climate along with what is event appropriate. Going nude to a dinner party or a conference would not be appropriate unless such a dress code was stated. There are many instances that clothing enhances sexual interest than detracts from it. Wear what is appropriate for the time, environment, or event. Going nude regularly every place you go is just as inappropriate as being completely covered up from head to toe with polar fleece in an Amazon rain forest with the temperature over 100 degrees and the humidity at 95 percent. All I am saying is that after tho ...


Or Japan.
 
2012-11-04 06:24:37 PM  

jimw: All I am saying is that after thousands of years on this planet our cultures should just get over their hangups of seeing our anatomical parts.


Much easier said than done I'm afraid
 
2012-11-04 06:27:38 PM  

oren0: If she really must use the women's locker room, she can try to be sensitive to the situation by changing under a towel or using the provided privacy curtain. And maybe she could wear shorts or something in the sauna. There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.


Bingo.
Walk around with your cock hanging out...not in the womens locker room.
Walk around with your pussy hanging out...not in the mens locker room.

'In progress' of being a woman? Great. Do that.
But don't wave your cock around in the womens locker room.
 
2012-11-04 06:28:38 PM  

YouPeopleAreCrazy: But don't wave your cock around in the womens locker room.


But then its like you're not really allowed to use the women's locker room at all
 
2012-11-04 06:28:51 PM  
While we're at it lets bring this attitude to the middle east.
 
2012-11-04 06:31:56 PM  

jimw: Isn't it about time we got over our puritan concepts. Nobody gets upset when children see male and female animals.


www.superpoop.com
 
2012-11-04 06:36:29 PM  
Call me weird, but I would feel uncomfortable if someone with male genitals showed up in a women's locker room. I couldn't be the only one who feels this way. While I can't imagine someone pretending to be a transsexual just to gawk in the women's locker room, I still feel strange about a cock in the hen house. Then again, I think it's weird that opposite-sex reporters are allowed in locker rooms after games.
 
2012-11-04 06:36:45 PM  

WhippingBoy: Buzzerguy: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Yes, by disagreeing on one issue, I hat all dissimilar persons. You've got me there.

I am unconcerned about your hat.

But you can't say you're as pro-Trans as possible and also say that trans people should be denied the facilities appropriate to their gender because somebody might see the wrong genitals. Or that such people should be forced behind a wall when other people are not. Or that someone is "trans" simply because he or she says so to get a look at members of the opposite sex, which is the most insulting and infuriating thing I've read here today.

A transwoman is a woman. She uses women's facilities. People who don't want to see her genitals should do the same thing as women in that locker room who don't want to see an old woman's sagging tits or Honey BooBoo Child's mother's giant rolls of fat or the stump of an amputee: DON'T LOOK.

/equal means equal

I think you missed the point. If you let one person with a penis use the women's locker room, then you have to let everyone with a penis use the women's locker room... it's only fair.


How about everyone who has a penis, but is transgendered, and is taking female hormones which have made them grow breasts, and have shrunk said penis down to trivial (and non functioning) proportions? Would these conditions satisfy you?

The late Gore Vidal once said that the Pilgrims didn't come to America for religious freedom, but rather the Europeans drove them out for being a bunch of religious prudes.
 
2012-11-04 06:37:23 PM  
Isn't it against the law for a 45 year old man to expose himself to teenage girls? Why isn't he being arrested and charged as a sex offender? If I went to my gym, entered the women's locker room and then stripped down and sat in their sauna with my wang hanging out, I'm fairly certain that is what would happen to me...

Officer: "Sir, you are under arrest."

Me: "No, it's cool, I think of myself as a woman."

Officer: "Oh, very well then Sir - that is, Ma'am. Please carry on."
 
2012-11-04 06:39:26 PM  
TESC is a joke and has always been a joke.

The students there don't care about anybody but themselves. The students move to Olympia and destroy the place, then leave thinking they changed it for the better.
 
2012-11-04 06:40:16 PM  

WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?


------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.
 
2012-11-04 06:40:24 PM  

Mr. Potatoass: Have a penis? Use the Men's locker room.
Don't have a penis? Use the Women's locker room.
Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.


Um...nice. >_>'
Here's a clue since you need one.... another person with a penis and tits.
application.denofgeek.com 
And in another comment you'd probably be intolerantly telling obese men to get to the gym, right? 

Grow up you intolerant fark.
 
2012-11-04 06:40:42 PM  
What about women with giant roast beef meat curtains flapping about?
Aint nobody got time for that.
 
2012-11-04 06:43:33 PM  

JustTheTip: Isn't it against the law for a 45 year old man to expose himself to teenage girls? Why isn't he being arrested and charged as a sex offender? If I went to my gym, entered the women's locker room and then stripped down and sat in their sauna with my wang hanging out, I'm fairly certain that is what would happen to me...

Officer: "Sir, you are under arrest."

Me: "No, it's cool, I think of myself as a woman."

Officer: "Oh, very well then Sir - that is, Ma'am. Please carry on."


And still arrests some drunk guy whizzing out of doors as a sex offender, because his penis is ordinary and he still wants it there.

And for those dissecting my Weeners, allow me to amend it to "I'm about as pro-LGBT rights as possible."
 
2012-11-04 06:43:55 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: If I self-identify as a black lesbian, can I get minority scholarships? Really, if it is how I think of myself that matters...


Completely agree...if biology has nothing to do with gender, why should biology have anything to do with RACE?
 
2012-11-04 06:44:16 PM  
Amazed (appalled?) at the anger emanating from both sides of this.
 
2012-11-04 06:45:28 PM  

Repo Man: How about everyone who has a penis, but is transgendered, and is taking female hormones which have made them grow breasts, and have shrunk said penis down to trivial (and non functioning) proportions? Would these conditions satisfy you?


Of course! Why didn't I think of that! How trivial it would be to ensure that only those people who met your conditions use a woman's change room!

The best thing is that I'm a fat, ugly, son of a biatch with a tiny penis... I'm sure my moobs could pass as breasts! By your conditions, I'd still be allowed in the woman's changing room to ogle to my heart's content!

/ no really, it's part of the process... I need to massage it like this until it falls off!
 
2012-11-04 06:47:30 PM  

soundguy: WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?

------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.


Why should the majority shut the fark up? They are, after all, the majority.

/democracy sucks!
 
2012-11-04 06:47:41 PM  

crabsno termites: Amazed (appalled?) at the anger emanating from both sides of this.


Why? Pick a topic. The resulting fark thread is all about hate hate hate angry angry hate.
 
2012-11-04 06:48:28 PM  

the_chief: Welcome to Romney's America.


Actually, it's welcome to an America where everybody is a protected class now. Everyone has their own snowflake feelings, and you must abide by my feelings or feel my hurt victim feelings. Personally, if I had a daughter in that locker room, that guy (girl, sorry) wouldn't have his junk left after I got done giving him a beatdown.

It doesn't matter that he identifies as female. He said he's attracted to females. Those facts coupled with the fact that he still has his junk, and I can tell you that Evergreen will have a huge lawsuit on their hands. Hope that Political Correctness works out for them when they have to pay off said lawsuits.
 
2012-11-04 06:50:02 PM  
The reason for male / female locker rooms has nothing to do with what gender someone perceives themselves as and everything to do with cock / no cock. Cock? Left. No cock? Right. That is the true reason for the separation to begin with and we have to be intellectually honest about it. This person has a cock, they go in the cock door. It is creating a controversy where none should rightly exist and hampering actual discussion about transgendered acceptance.

Rest rooms / locker rooms: Not about what gender you feel you are.
 
2012-11-04 06:50:58 PM  
I don't think you are allowed to just declare yourself the opposite sex one day and start using the other locker rooms or bathrooms. Generally you need a few years of therapy or counseling to get certified or whatever they do to get their IDs changed over.

As long as she is discrete about it, I don't have a problem with it. If she starts swinging it around the locker room like an 80 year old guy then that isn't very appropriate.
 
2012-11-04 06:51:18 PM  

WhippingBoy: soundguy: WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?

------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.

Why should the majority shut the fark up? They are, after all, the majority.

/democracy sucks!


Queue the Beatles... All we need is love, love. Love is all we need.
 
2012-11-04 06:51:39 PM  

DoctorCal: crabsno termites: Amazed (appalled?) at the anger emanating from both sides of this.

Why? Pick a topic. The resulting fark thread is all about hate hate hate angry angry hate.


OK, let me rephrase: Amazed (appalled?) at the self-righteousness emanating from both sides of this.

/Yeah, you can just cut and paste your previous comment.

//Wandering off, shaking head.
 
2012-11-04 06:52:48 PM  

bmunroe: Call me weird, but I would feel uncomfortable if someone with male genitals showed up in a women's locker room. I couldn't be the only one who feels this way. While I can't imagine someone pretending to be a transsexual just to gawk in the women's locker room, I still feel strange about a cock in the hen house. Then again, I think it's weird that opposite-sex reporters are allowed in locker rooms after games.


You find it weird because you've been taught that sex means gender. Fact is that any male looking person you encounter might in fact be a woman. There's no way you can tell by someone's appearance which gender they identify as. Therefore you should not call someone "him or her" before you know what gender identification that person has. 

The woman in the article has every right to be in the women's locker room because she is every bit as much of a woman as you are.
 
2012-11-04 06:53:23 PM  
Presumably, the University should also give her a box in which her fetus would gestate.
 
2012-11-04 06:54:39 PM  
Tranny-shamanny..... as long at she's hot.

baileyjayblog.com
 
2012-11-04 06:55:44 PM  

WhippingBoy: soundguy: WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?

------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.

Why should the majority shut the fark up? They are, after all, the majority.

/democracy sucks!


------

You know who else liked to repress minorities?
 
2012-11-04 06:56:00 PM  

evoke: bmunroe: Call me weird, but I would feel uncomfortable if someone with male genitals showed up in a women's locker room. I couldn't be the only one who feels this way. While I can't imagine someone pretending to be a transsexual just to gawk in the women's locker room, I still feel strange about a cock in the hen house. Then again, I think it's weird that opposite-sex reporters are allowed in locker rooms after games.

You find it weird because you've been taught that sex means gender. Fact is that any male looking person you encounter might in fact be a woman. There's no way you can tell by someone's appearance which gender they identify as. Therefore you should not call someone "him or her" before you know what gender identification that person has. 

The woman in the article has every right to be in the women's locker room because she is every bit as much of a woman as you are.


Gender doesn't automatically trump sex. (And yes, I do know the distinction.)
 
2012-11-04 06:56:28 PM  

2 Replies: Mr. Potatoass: Have a penis? Use the Men's locker room.
Don't have a penis? Use the Women's locker room.
Have a penis and tits? Stay out of locker rooms.

Um...nice. >_>'
Here's a clue since you need one.... another person with a penis and tits.
[application.denofgeek.com image 330x248] 
And in another comment you'd probably be intolerantly telling obese men to get to the gym, right? 

Grow up you intolerant fark.


Piss off.
I don't care what anyone's sexual/ gender orientation is. None of my business. Just don't care.
However, regarding my "penis and tits" statement; I'll stand by it.
If you're midway through sex reassignment surgery, keep it to yourself.
Few give a shiat. Fewer want to see it.
 
2012-11-04 06:56:47 PM  

WhippingBoy: Repo Man: How about everyone who has a penis, but is transgendered, and is taking female hormones which have made them grow breasts, and have shrunk said penis down to trivial (and non functioning) proportions? Would these conditions satisfy you?

Of course! Why didn't I think of that! How trivial it would be to ensure that only those people who met your conditions use a woman's change room!

The best thing is that I'm a fat, ugly, son of a biatch with a tiny penis... I'm sure my moobs could pass as breasts! By your conditions, I'd still be allowed in the woman's changing room to ogle to my heart's content!

/ no really, it's part of the process... I need to massage it like this until it falls off!


Sign up for the emasculating estrogen injections, and provide evidence that you're getting them, and you're gold baby! The trouble is, your sex drive would evaporate, and you'd probably find ogling to be of no interest at that point. Anyone who would be willing to go through all of that just to be let into the women's locker room would have to be insane.

Instead of continuing this shocking display of ignorance about what transgenderism is, you could take a look at some of the freely available web resources. Or, carry on being an ignorant fool.
 
2012-11-04 06:57:09 PM  
so just to be clear, if I put on some makeup and a dress I can go hang out in women's lockerrooms?

Good to know.

Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken
 
2012-11-04 06:58:39 PM  

soundguy: WhippingBoy: soundguy: WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?

------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.

Why should the majority shut the fark up? They are, after all, the majority.

/democracy sucks!

------

You know who else liked to repress minorities?


Exactly. Requesting that someone with a penis use a male change room is exactly the same as mass genocide. You're the smartest person on the internets!
 
2012-11-04 06:58:41 PM  

Fark Rye For Many Whores: [www.superpoop.com image 550x408]


/tricken
//maybe if the chick started identifying as "gender porcine"
///this could be "trickenosis"
////forgot to slash as I was leaving
 
2012-11-04 06:59:21 PM  

charmingkiddo: so just to be clear, if I put on some makeup and a dress I can go hang out in women's lockerrooms?

Good to know.

Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken


Tough lesson, eh?
 
2012-11-04 06:59:49 PM  
A 17 year old girl saw a penis.

It must be the apocalypse.
 
2012-11-04 07:00:09 PM  
What I find odd is the conflict here - biologically she is male, it would be reasonable to require her to use the mens locker room, however this might make her embarrassed and uncomfortable since she identifies as female. Therefore they allow her to use the womens locker room, which makes her comfortable but makes a bunch of little kids, and probably some adults, very uncomfortable. So why does her right to comfort trump that of a bunch of little kids? Would it really be so horrible to request she use the mens locker room, or a towel, until such time as she has gender reassignment surgery? What about a little girl who has been molested by a man and might reasonably be distraught at the sight of a penis? Are you going to look her in the eye and tell her she simply needs to grow up and deal with it, accept that not all women look like her?

What if I am simply a horny perv, biologically male, who dresses and acts like a man, but claims to identify as female, could I then legally use the women locker room? Hey who are you to tell me what a woman looks and dresses like right? If I say I'm a woman then that's the end of it, I don't need to dress or act a certain way.
 
2012-11-04 07:00:12 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.



S/he wasn't just "born with a wang." She HAS a wang.

And s/he can identify as a woman all s/he wants, but if I self-identify as Chinese it doesn't make me Chinese.

At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room priviledges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.
 
2012-11-04 07:03:42 PM  
Besides, going into the female locker room as a transgendered male only brings unwanted attention to you and makes everyone else uncomfortable. Sure, there are times when maybe you need to make the status quo uncomfortable, but you really should pick your battles. It's not all about the transgendered person's feelings and to be accepted in larger society sometimes means making accommodations you'd rather not have to make - for the good of the many and all that.

If society is being asked to make compromise for the comfort of someone who is transgendered, then the transgendered person ought to make some compromises for the comfort of society. I mean, unless you don't care about being accepted in in larger society, in which case, flaunt that johnson in the sauna for the shock value, but you're not helping the cause of your brothers / sisters by doing this. Actually, it's more that It's rude, the equivalent of farting loudly at a dinner table.

Wearing a towel in the women's sauna would not be an unbearable compromise.
 
2012-11-04 07:05:09 PM  
It seems that must folks who have a problem with this are assuming this and other transgendered people have the sexual urges that are "normal" for a person with those genitals. Perhaps this individual is attracted to men. Nowhere in the artical did it say she had an erection in the sauna or walked around leering at women and children with a stiffy. Not everyone with a penis is sexually attracted to boobs and vaginas.

You can check to make sure someone really is living as a woman. You can't just one day walk into a woman's locker room and claim you're feeling like a lady. People who say shiat like that sound like idiots.

At work, there's a m to f transgendered person using the ladies' bathroom. I'm neither creeped out nor offended by it. She dresses as a woman every day. I think she'd certainly not fit in in the men's bathroom.
 
2012-11-04 07:05:28 PM  

gadian: Besides, going into the female locker room as a transgendered male only brings unwanted attention to you and makes everyone else uncomfortable. Sure, there are times when maybe you need to make the status quo uncomfortable, but you really should pick your battles. It's not all about the transgendered person's feelings and to be accepted in larger society sometimes means making accommodations you'd rather not have to make - for the good of the many and all that.

If society is being asked to make compromise for the comfort of someone who is transgendered, then the transgendered person ought to make some compromises for the comfort of society. I mean, unless you don't care about being accepted in in larger society, in which case, flaunt that johnson in the sauna for the shock value, but you're not helping the cause of your brothers / sisters by doing this. Actually, it's more that It's rude, the equivalent of farting loudly at a dinner table.

Wearing a towel in the women's sauna would not be an unbearable compromise.


Why are you here spouting sensibility?
 
2012-11-04 07:06:33 PM  

ElBarto79: What I find odd is the conflict here - biologically she is male, it would be reasonable to require her to use the mens locker room, however this might make her embarrassed and uncomfortable since she identifies as female. Therefore they allow her to use the womens locker room, which makes her comfortable but makes a bunch of little kids, and probably some adults, very uncomfortable. So why does her right to comfort trump that of a bunch of little kids? Would it really be so horrible to request she use the mens locker room, or a towel, until such time as she has gender reassignment surgery? What about a little girl who has been molested by a man and might reasonably be distraught at the sight of a penis? Are you going to look her in the eye and tell her she simply needs to grow up and deal with it, accept that not all women look like her?

What if I am simply a horny perv, biologically male, who dresses and acts like a man, but claims to identify as female, could I then legally use the women locker room? Hey who are you to tell me what a woman looks and dresses like right? If I say I'm a woman then that's the end of it, I don't need to dress or act a certain way.


Because she's special and she's outraged; that makes her "right" and everyone else "wrong".
 
2012-11-04 07:06:59 PM  

Christian Bale: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


S/he wasn't just "born with a wang." She HAS a wang.

And s/he can identify as a woman all s/he wants, but if I self-identify as Chinese it doesn't make me Chinese.

At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room priviledges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.


How about tossing out people who act like pervs? You could have aggressive lesbians, and aggressive gay men in their "proper" dressing rooms, and they could be making people very uncomfortable with their behavior. No one is insisting that a transgendered person would have blanket immunity; if their behavior were inappropriate, they should lose the privilege.
 
2012-11-04 07:08:53 PM  
www.the-isb.com
 
2012-11-04 07:09:42 PM  

Repo Man: Christian Bale: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


S/he wasn't just "born with a wang." She HAS a wang.

And s/he can identify as a woman all s/he wants, but if I self-identify as Chinese it doesn't make me Chinese.

At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room priviledges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.

How about tossing out people who act like pervs? You could have aggressive lesbians, and aggressive gay men in their "proper" dressing rooms, and they could be making people very uncomfortable with their behavior. No one is insisting that a transgendered person would have blanket immunity; if their behavior were inappropriate, they should lose the privilege.


Whose inappropriate?
 
2012-11-04 07:10:51 PM  
The decision to allow a transgender 45-year-old college student who identifies as a woman but has male genitalia to use the women's locker room has raised a fracas among parents and faith-based organizations, who say children as young as 6 years old use the locker room.

Now I see. Somebody's imaginary friend does not approve. You want to keep God happy don't you? Otherwise, he'll make more tornadoes for the Bible Belt and more hurricanes for Florida.

"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." -Susan B. Anthony
 
2012-11-04 07:11:24 PM  

Christian Bale: At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room privileges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.


I can think of interesting test case here - what if a man, and I mean a mans man; 300 pounds, hairy, full beard, voice like Barry White, who wears work boots and grimy jeans, likes to talk about sports and beer tells the university that, regardless of what he looks like he self identifies as a female and begins using the womens locker room and lets it all hang out in full view of kids. At what point does someone say "enough!".
 
2012-11-04 07:12:15 PM  
most countries do not have locker rooms.

several countries in Europe don't separate men and women anymore.

Lots of people in the US think the gays will stare at them in the shower and want to separate people with even more granularity

Lots of people in the US are afraid of brown people and can't get over that.

so many snowflakes so many flakes.
 
2012-11-04 07:13:03 PM  

EmmaLou: You can check to make sure someone really is living as a woman.


And for all practical purposes, what do you propose? That anyone who wants to use a woman's locker room and claims to identify as a woman go through a rigorous background check? Do you really think that's gonna fly?
 
2012-11-04 07:13:36 PM  

epoch_destroi: But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.


For the record, I would have no objection to a woman jerking it in the men's locker room.

Not that that has anything to do with transgender equality.
 
2012-11-04 07:14:18 PM  

madgordy: most countries do not have locker rooms.

several countries in Europe don't separate men and women anymore.

Lots of people in the US think the gays will stare at them in the shower and want to separate people with even more granularity

Lots of people in the US are afraid of brown people and can't get over that.

so many snowflakes so many flakes.


So the solution is to move to Europe. I'm OK with that!
 
2012-11-04 07:15:48 PM  

evoke: bmunroe: Call me weird, but I would feel uncomfortable if someone with male genitals showed up in a women's locker room. I couldn't be the only one who feels this way. While I can't imagine someone pretending to be a transsexual just to gawk in the women's locker room, I still feel strange about a cock in the hen house. Then again, I think it's weird that opposite-sex reporters are allowed in locker rooms after games.

You find it weird because you've been taught that sex means gender. Fact is that any male looking person you encounter might in fact be a woman. There's no way you can tell by someone's appearance which gender they identify as. Therefore you should not call someone "him or her" before you know what gender identification that person has. 

The woman in the article has every right to be in the women's locker room because she is every bit as much of a woman as you are.


I can see the only choice on voting is either with the Smartest or Funniest, Stupidest voting option is missing, unlike the dudes penis
 
2012-11-04 07:18:12 PM  

epoch_destroi: But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.


They must have changed the rules. Cause I've seen guys jerking it in the sauna at TESC.
 
2012-11-04 07:18:48 PM  

oren0: especially with children around


Exactly. We all know that children who see a penis -- even their own -- in a non-sexual setting are doomed to become meth-addicted pedophile commie homosexuals. Usually within the hour.

And you don't even want to think about what happens to children that see a nipple.
 
2012-11-04 07:20:14 PM  
averagejoe42: Tranny-shamanny..... as long at she's hot.

[baileyjayblog.com image 683x1024]


Its a trap
 
2012-11-04 07:21:09 PM  
People like this really do nothing at all to help the transgendered movement. You can argue all you like if we should have separate locker rooms and bathrooms and all that, but that is a different argument. We do, and the divider is your physical gender. It doesn't matter how you identify, it matters what you are. Pure and simple. Stop trying to make an issue of it.
 
2012-11-04 07:21:11 PM  

ElBarto79: At what point does someone say "enough!".


At the point where we still build separate locker rooms. What a fraking waste of space and endorsement of gender discrimination. Get this 17th-century "separate but equal" crap out of our public institutions.

Plus what you're suggesting is a separate locker room not based on gender but based on ugly. Which sounds like a good idea, until you realize that you'll be in the ugly room...
 
2012-11-04 07:21:53 PM  

madgordy: most countries do not have locker rooms.

several countries in Europe don't separate men and women anymore.

Lots of people in the US think the gays will stare at them in the shower and want to separate people with even more granularity

Lots of people in the US are afraid of brown people and can't get over that.

so many snowflakes so many flakes.


Now that is simply not true. They definitely seperate the genders in Europe as well in school locker rooms. At least in Scandinavia, Germany, the Netherlands and the UK (which is where I've been). Southern Europe most likely does it as well since they're even more conservative, Eastern Europe also.
 
2012-11-04 07:23:08 PM  

Christian Bale: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


S/he wasn't just "born with a wang." She HAS a wang.

And s/he can identify as a woman all s/he wants, but if I self-identify as Chinese it doesn't make me Chinese.

At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room priviledges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.


Prom.
 
2012-11-04 07:24:13 PM  

Lafiel: Christian Bale: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


S/he wasn't just "born with a wang." She HAS a wang.

And s/he can identify as a woman all s/he wants, but if I self-identify as Chinese it doesn't make me Chinese.

At some point the "gender is a construct" people are going to have to realize that if you can self-determine a gender, then go to that gender's locker room, there are going to be perves who choose a gender for no other reason than to be perves. And there needs to be a pretty good way of determining who is a perve and who isn't, otherwise there are going to be a lot of perves in the women's locker room.

That's the "fear", not some alleged "fear" of trans people.

In this case, exposing your penis in the sauna? That's grounds for having your locker room priviledges revoked. Name me another scenario where anyone could expose their penis in public to high school girls and not be arrested.

Prom.


A saucy penis-puppet show!
 
2012-11-04 07:25:57 PM  

AbbeySomeone: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.

I'm not afraid afraid of penis, trannies or any of it but I sure wouldn't want to see hers flopping about. When it gets removed she can use the ladies facilities.


Yes, but then again you are the epitome of a spoiled and demanding female. Your damned profile is even directly pandering for free shiat.
 
2012-11-04 07:29:26 PM  

oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?


You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.
 
2012-11-04 07:30:03 PM  

Nrokreffefp: AbbeySomeone: epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.

I'm not afraid afraid of penis, trannies or any of it but I sure wouldn't want to see hers flopping about. When it gets removed she can use the ladies facilities.

Yes, but then again you are the epitome of a spoiled and demanding female. Your damned profile is even directly pandering for free shiat.


Be careful here... she has at least one alt and has been exposed on at least one occasion...
 
2012-11-04 07:30:13 PM  
1. Take one of the "Family Locker" rooms and make it a "Incomplete Op Tranny" room.

2. Problem solved.
 
2012-11-04 07:30:16 PM  

WhippingBoy: soundguy: WhippingBoy: soundguy: WhippingBoy: How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?

------

It has nothing to do with accommodating edge cases. It has everything to do with getting the vast majority of the population to shut the fark up about their "morality issues" based in their rigid, sexually-repressed upbringing. If the problem simply doesn't exist any more, no one has to listen to their constant biatching about how the edge cases are destroying the fabric of civilization.

Why should the majority shut the fark up? They are, after all, the majority.

/democracy sucks!

------

You know who else liked to repress minorities?

Exactly. Requesting that someone with a penis use a male change room is exactly the same as mass genocide. You're the smartest person on the internets!


------

And removing the problems created by penis-specific public facilities so there's nothing to complain about is exactly the same as forcing the majority into silence
 
2012-11-04 07:30:17 PM  
Another discrimination against transgendered people is that they are not allowed to strip search people of the same identified gender as them. And if they're being strip searched themselves they (usually) can't request that a person of the same identified gender as them performs the search.
 
2012-11-04 07:30:57 PM  

austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.


That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...
 
2012-11-04 07:31:34 PM  

wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?


Barbie?
 
2012-11-04 07:31:57 PM  

evoke: Another discrimination against transgendered people is that they are not allowed to strip search people of the same identified gender as them. And if they're being strip searched themselves they (usually) can't request that a person of the same identified gender as them performs the search.


I have no sympathy for fascist TSA trannies. They can feel my junk in line with all their freedom hating buddies.

The other scenario, that's a bummer.
 
2012-11-04 07:33:08 PM  

austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.


So parents who don't want their six-year-old daughters seeing penises can't let them go into a women's locker room or sauna?
 
2012-11-04 07:34:44 PM  

profplump: ElBarto79: At what point does someone say "enough!".

At the point where we still build separate locker rooms. What a fraking waste of space and endorsement of gender discrimination. Get this 17th-century "separate but equal" crap out of our public institutions.

Plus what you're suggesting is a separate locker room not based on gender but based on ugly. Which sounds like a good idea, until you realize that you'll be in the ugly room...


Not based on ugly, based on gender and behavior attributes. If someone walks, talks and acts like a man, but claims to be female, is it perfectly reasonable for "her" to walk around naked in front of a bunch of little girls?

Gender is a construct to a certain degree, and I agree a lot of it is simply mental, but it has a foundation in physiology.
 
2012-11-04 07:35:07 PM  

WhippingBoy: It's only trivial in an academic world. In the real world, a great deal of resources (money, work, time) would need to be expended to convert all of the existing public change rooms to what you're suggesting. How much societal effort should be expend to accomodate those who fall into an extreme edge case category?


You don't have to really convert any facilities for unisex use. Locker rooms have showers; bathrooms have toilets. Everyone has everything they need. There might not be urinals in women's locker rooms but that's not exactly something that's required. All you'd have to do is replace all of the "Men"/"Women" signs with "It doesn't matter" signs.

I mean, it's not like these people are physically disabled--and hell, we already do spend a lot of time and resources to accommodate the disabled, because we are legally obligated to. Because it's the right thing to do.
 
2012-11-04 07:35:12 PM  

sycraft: We do, and the divider is your physical gender. It doesn't matter how you identify, it matters what you are.


I think that's the point that's up for debate here. And it shows how silly the whole concept of segregated locker rooms is in the first place, because the divider we pick has no fundamental basis -- it's just an arbitrary social construct with binary bins that poorly reflect the diversity of life and society.

Try these on for size, with your "simple" rule:
Children -- if the divider is really your genitals, then we can't allow boys to go with their mothers or daughters with their fathers. But this isn't currently the case; young children are typically allowed in either room.
Physically non-typical genital owners (e.g. hermaphrodites, eunuchs, etc.) -- their genitals don't match either of the pictures on the doors, are they just not allowed to use locker rooms? Do we build a room for each of the variations -- we can't possibly group them together because "physical gender" is the divider than none of the different options share the exact same "physical gender" (whatever the hell that means).
Sex chromosome abnormalities: I've got a Y chromosome but no penis. What's my "physical gender"? Do I again get a dedicated room?
 
2012-11-04 07:38:29 PM  

austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.


The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable.

One penis does not a world make.

/'Cept last night, there was this chick on the next stool, and I was tellin' her about...
/She didn't believe it, either.

 
2012-11-04 07:38:41 PM  

ElBarto79: If someone walks, talks and acts like a man, but claims to be female, is it perfectly reasonable for "her" to walk around naked in front of a bunch of little girls?


Yes. Because the existence of a penis doesn't actually hurt little girls. If the guy is harassing little girls with his penis we should arrest him, just like we would if he was harassing old men with his penis.

Gender is a construct to a certain degree, and I agree a lot of it is simply mental, but it has a foundation in physiology.

Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.

/ And if you're going to argue "physiology" you're going to need a lot more than 2 bins to sort people.
 
2012-11-04 07:39:55 PM  

profplump: ElBarto79: If someone walks, talks and acts like a man, but claims to be female, is it perfectly reasonable for "her" to walk around naked in front of a bunch of little girls?

Yes. Because the existence of a penis doesn't actually hurt little girls. If the guy is harassing little girls with his penis we should arrest him, just like we would if he was harassing old men with his penis.

Gender is a construct to a certain degree, and I agree a lot of it is simply mental, but it has a foundation in physiology.

Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.

/ And if you're going to argue "physiology" you're going to need a lot more than 2 bins to sort people.


As a man, I fully endorse the concept of "gender neutral" change rooms. Boy, do I ever!
 
2012-11-04 07:40:28 PM  

crabsno termites: Amazed (appalled?) at the anger emanating from both sides of this.


Sometimes I think fark is half lgbt and half jerks
 
2012-11-04 07:40:41 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...


This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.
 
2012-11-04 07:41:44 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

So parents who don't want their six-year-old daughters seeing penises can't let them go into a women's locker room or sauna?


Why wouldn't they want them to see penises but it's ok for them to see vaginas? I'd love to hear a reasonable, rational explanation. I have yet to hear one that justifies the segregation of the sexes.
 
2012-11-04 07:43:18 PM  

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...

This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.


To not show her penis to those who don't want to see it, especially little girls?

profplump: Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.


You want to eliminate separate rooms where women can undress away from men?
 
2012-11-04 07:45:44 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...

This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.

To not show her penis to those who don't want to see it, especially little girls?profplump: Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.

You want to eliminate separate rooms where women can undress away from men?


I know that I want to eliminate separate rooms. Of course, I'm gay, so I've always had to share locker rooms with people I could potentially be attracted to. You learn how to deal with it. If gays and lesbians and bisexuals can, so can everyone else.

"I'm uncomfortable being around people of another sex" is not a reasonable argument for forced segregation.
 
2012-11-04 07:46:21 PM  

austerity101: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

So parents who don't want their six-year-old daughters seeing penises can't let them go into a women's locker room or sauna?

Why wouldn't they want them to see penises but it's ok for them to see vaginas? I'd love to hear a reasonable, rational explanation. I have yet to hear one that justifies the segregation of the sexes.


Because it's the same as they have, just like how little boys use the locker room where there are penises to be seen. As it stands, this is how our society regulates nudity.
 
2012-11-04 07:47:54 PM  
Oh for crying out loud. Fark you Judeo-Christianity... fark you. We really need to get over this sheer terror we have of bodies.

oren0:
There is no reason for her to walk around with her cock out for extended periods of time, especially with children around. Men shouldn't do that around children in the men's locker room either.

That said, I have to post a link to an oh-so-relevant Oatmeal comic.
 
2012-11-04 07:48:13 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: austerity101:

Why wouldn't they want them to see penises but it's ok for them to see vaginas? I'd love to hear a reasonable, rational explanation. I have yet to hear one that justifies the segregation of the sexes.

Because it's the same as they have, just like how little boys use the locker room where there are penises to be seen. As it stands, this is how our society regulates nudity.


And that's irrational and unreasonable.

Furthermore, the college is simply following state law. I don't think they really have a choice in the matter. So, that's how the state regulates (or, rather, doesn't regulate) gender.
 
2012-11-04 07:49:14 PM  

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...

This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.


Hey, a wise person once said, "The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better." This applies to this woman as well...
 
2012-11-04 07:51:15 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...

This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.

Hey, a wise person once said, "The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better." This applies to this woman as well...


The world doesn't have to change. Other than stop being dicks to someone, which is pretty much a given for how the world shouldn't be to begin with. This woman isn't asking the world to change, but rather, not be assholes toward her.

You might as well say that a black man asking people not to be racist assholes is asking the world to accommodate his race. I mean, how dare he ask to be able to eat in the same restaurants as everyone else? That's just going too far.
 
2012-11-04 07:51:31 PM  

averagejoe42: Tranny-shamanny..... as long at she's hot.

[baileyjayblog.com image 683x1024]


I'm . . . conflicted, sort of but, *sigh*
I can't brain today - I have a dumb
 
2012-11-04 07:51:37 PM  
img.addfunny.com

/randomly found this guy's pic collection earlier today
//this thread uses all of them
///can't explain it
 
2012-11-04 07:56:24 PM  

austerity101: The world doesn't have to change. Other than stop being dicks to someone, which is pretty much a given for how the world shouldn't be to begin with. This woman isn't asking the world to change, but rather, not be assholes toward her.

You might as well say that a black man asking people not to be racist assholes is asking the world to accommodate his race. I mean, how dare he ask to be able to eat in the same restaurants as everyone else? That's just going too far.


Nice straw man.

As it stands, people who have penises are not permitted in women's change rooms. The world definitely needs to change in order to accomodate this person. Your double standard is absolutely staggering. She doesn't want to use the men's change room because it makes her feel uncomfortable. By your own admission, the onus is on her.
 
2012-11-04 07:56:28 PM  

epoch_destroi:
Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.


I'm sorry, but from now on you will need to change in the men's locker room.

Don't look at me that way. I don't make the rules.
 
2012-11-04 07:56:53 PM  

austerity101: You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.


By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?
 
2012-11-04 07:58:55 PM  

orbister: austerity101: You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?


Wrong, because that's indecent exposure at the very least and is therefore a completely separate issue.

This woman was not assaulting anyone or behaving in a lewd or sexual manner. Non-issue.
 
2012-11-04 08:00:19 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: The world doesn't have to change. Other than stop being dicks to someone, which is pretty much a given for how the world shouldn't be to begin with. This woman isn't asking the world to change, but rather, not be assholes toward her.

You might as well say that a black man asking people not to be racist assholes is asking the world to accommodate his race. I mean, how dare he ask to be able to eat in the same restaurants as everyone else? That's just going too far.

Nice straw man.

As it stands, people who have penises are not permitted in women's change rooms.


That's not true. At least, not according to WA state law.

The world definitely needs to change in order to accomodate this person. Your double standard is absolutely staggering. She doesn't want to use the men's change room because it makes her feel uncomfortable. By your own admission, the onus is on her.

She doesn't want to use the men's change room because she is a woman, irrespective of her genitalia. You're conflating sex and gender, something state law very much does not.
 
2012-11-04 08:01:24 PM  

austerity101: orbister: austerity101: You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?

Wrong, because that's indecent exposure at the very least and is therefore a completely separate issue.

This woman was not assaulting anyone or behaving in a lewd or sexual manner. Non-issue.


I'll accept that as soon as men who are caught urinating in public are no longer required to register as a sex offender.
 
2012-11-04 08:01:32 PM  
Will Balbricker be judging?

1.bp.blogspot.com 

Seriously, am I the only one that got this?
 
2012-11-04 08:03:53 PM  

Snarfangel: epoch_destroi:
Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.

I'm sorry, but from now on you will need to change in the men's locker room.

Don't look at me that way. I don't make the rules.


I'm bi. Which room do I get to use?
 
2012-11-04 08:03:57 PM  
Wow, this one has me conflicted.
On one hand, I absolutely would not want my young daughter changing and showering with a penised individual.
On the other, I might very well be willing to call myself Sally in order to gain access to a college women's locker room.
I think I'll just toddle off to the safety of the politics tab and try not to think about it.
 
2012-11-04 08:04:05 PM  

profplump: ElBarto79: If someone walks, talks and acts like a man, but claims to be female, is it perfectly reasonable for "her" to walk around naked in front of a bunch of little girls?

Yes. Because the existence of a penis doesn't actually hurt little girls. If the guy is harassing little girls with his penis we should arrest him, just like we would if he was harassing old men with his penis.

Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.


I think gender segregation would at least partly be based on preventing sexual harassment, or are you saying it's perfectly reasonable to eliminate mens and womens changing rooms and just lump everyone together? There are a lot of men that would be ok with this I imagine, especially at the gym, and there are a lot of women who definitely would not be. In fact a lot of women aren't even comfortable exercising in front of men, which is why there are women only gyms. Once the harassment cases start piling up I think you'd start to realize why simply separating men and women is reasonable and fair.
 
2012-11-04 08:04:53 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: orbister: austerity101: You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?

Wrong, because that's indecent exposure at the very least and is therefore a completely separate issue.

This woman was not assaulting anyone or behaving in a lewd or sexual manner. Non-issue.

I'll accept that as soon as men who are caught urinating in public are no longer required to register as a sex offender.


That's irrelevant, and a *completely* separate issue, and you know it, especially since 1) it's stupid, anyway; 2) that's not even the case in some US states (including Arizona, which has pretty nasty laws already); and 3) this wasn't in public; it was in a locker room, a place where people are generally encouraged to urinate.
 
2012-11-04 08:05:45 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?

--and I just want to throw out there that somehow, just somehow, I don't think that seeing a woman who was born with a wang is going to permanently alter people using a friggin' locker room.

But hey, maybe I'm just not irrationally terrified of trans people or penises.


She's a "woman" who shows her wang to the other girls in the locker room. :)
 
2012-11-04 08:07:06 PM  

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: The world doesn't have to change. Other than stop being dicks to someone, which is pretty much a given for how the world shouldn't be to begin with. This woman isn't asking the world to change, but rather, not be assholes toward her.

You might as well say that a black man asking people not to be racist assholes is asking the world to accommodate his race. I mean, how dare he ask to be able to eat in the same restaurants as everyone else? That's just going too far.

Nice straw man.

As it stands, people who have penises are not permitted in women's change rooms.

That's not true. At least, not according to WA state law.

The world definitely needs to change in order to accomodate this person. Your double standard is absolutely staggering. She doesn't want to use the men's change room because it makes her feel uncomfortable. By your own admission, the onus is on her.

She doesn't want to use the men's change room because she is a woman, irrespective of her genitalia. You're conflating sex and gender, something state law very much does not.


You're going to be done in by your own self-righteousness. If you really want to affect lasting social change, you'll need to start presenting your case in a way that the majority identify with, as distasteful as that may be. Most people, wrongly or rightly, don't make a distinction between sex and gender. If you were truly concerned, you'd realize this that and work with it instead of labelling everyone who disagrees with you as "wrong".
 
2012-11-04 08:07:59 PM  

ElBarto79: profplump: ElBarto79: If someone walks, talks and acts like a man, but claims to be female, is it perfectly reasonable for "her" to walk around naked in front of a bunch of little girls?

Yes. Because the existence of a penis doesn't actually hurt little girls. If the guy is harassing little girls with his penis we should arrest him, just like we would if he was harassing old men with his penis.

Race is mostly mental but has its foundation in physiology. Somehow we've still managed to stop building separate facilities for blacks. I suspect we could do the same for women if we tried.

I think gender segregation would at least partly be based on preventing sexual harassment, or are you saying it's perfectly reasonable to eliminate mens and womens changing rooms and just lump everyone together? There are a lot of men that would be ok with this I imagine, especially at the gym, and there are a lot of women who definitely would not be. In fact a lot of women aren't even comfortable exercising in front of men, which is why there are women only gyms. Once the harassment cases start piling up I think you'd start to realize why simply separating men and women is reasonable and fair.


Wouldn't that also mean that we should have kept separate-but-equal accommodations for blacks, so that they weren't persecuted by racist whites? At some point, we have to integrate people so that they can learn how to behave like civilized adults around each other. That doesn't mean that people aren't going to segregate themselves in various ways, but we shouldn't be forcing it to happen as a matter of course and legislation.
 
2012-11-04 08:09:20 PM  
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/colleen-francis/

Link

Colleen Francis is a 45 year old man who retired from the US Army after 20 years as a supply sergeant. Married three times, he has three adult children and two daughters aged 7 and 5. His cross-sex hormones are provided by VA Medical, as well as a cocktail of psychiatric meds, lithium and antabuse prescribed for a troubling history that he details at length on a blog at the "Transgender Lesbian Space"of the puddygirl dating site for women. He says he is known as "Fae Raven" (not to be confused with the UK fetish model of the same name) in the "BDSM Community" and describes himself as:

"I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

gendertrender.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-04 08:09:32 PM  
Transgenderism is an issue that divides even the most "open-minded" and "progressive" radical feminists. If they can't agree on this, how can the rest of us ignorant, unwashed, simpletons come to a logical conclusion?
 
2012-11-04 08:11:59 PM  

topcon: http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/colleen-francis/

Link

Colleen Francis is a 45 year old man who retired from the US Army after 20 years as a supply sergeant. Married three times, he has three adult children and two daughters aged 7 and 5. His cross-sex hormones are provided by VA Medical, as well as a cocktail of psychiatric meds, lithium and antabuse prescribed for a troubling history that he details at length on a blog at the "Transgender Lesbian Space"of the puddygirl dating site for women. He says he is known as "Fae Raven" (not to be confused with the UK fetish model of the same name) in the "BDSM Community" and describes himself as:

"I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

[gendertrender.files.wordpress.com image 356x488]


Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, that doesn't seem like a biased source at all.
 
2012-11-04 08:12:34 PM  
According to a police report, the mother of a 17-year-old girl complained after her daughter saw the transgender individual walking naked in the locker room. A female swim coach confronted the man sprawled out in a sauna exposing himself. She ordered him to leave and called police.
 
2012-11-04 08:13:08 PM  
Real simple solution: Bathrooms are not gender assigned, but genitalia assigned. Penis sign on one door, no penis sign on the other door.

//A wise man once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one."
 
2012-11-04 08:13:39 PM  

epoch_destroi: topcon: http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/colleen-francis/

Link

Colleen Francis is a 45 year old man who retired from the US Army after 20 years as a supply sergeant. Married three times, he has three adult children and two daughters aged 7 and 5. His cross-sex hormones are provided by VA Medical, as well as a cocktail of psychiatric meds, lithium and antabuse prescribed for a troubling history that he details at length on a blog at the "Transgender Lesbian Space"of the puddygirl dating site for women. He says he is known as "Fae Raven" (not to be confused with the UK fetish model of the same name) in the "BDSM Community" and describes himself as:

"I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

[gendertrender.files.wordpress.com image 356x488]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, that doesn't seem like a biased source at all.


Huh?

It's not news about him...it's a blog about him that existed even before this news story came out. It's not making any judgement about anything or even mention any news story. It's a blog about transgendered people.
 
2012-11-04 08:15:19 PM  

austerity101: orbister:

By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?

Wrong, because that's indecent exposure at the very least and is therefore a completely separate issue.


It's only "indecent" if some onlookers take offence at it. Which is the issue here, is it not?
 
2012-11-04 08:15:55 PM  
Edit: It's been updated since the last time I clicked on it. This story was circulating days ago on another forum, and someone linked that. I'd swear this was some old profile of him. I may have dug up the wrong link.

Somewhere someone had an old interview with the guy from some transgendered site, apparently this wasn't it. Still, though.
 
2012-11-04 08:16:54 PM  

Oldiron_79: averagejoe42: Tranny-shamanny..... as long at she's hot.

[baileyjayblog.com image 683x1024]

Its a trap

fap
 
2012-11-04 08:18:12 PM  

mjbok: Real simple solution: Bathrooms are not gender assigned, but genitalia assigned. Penis sign on one door, no penis sign on the other door.

//A wise man once said, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...or the one."


Life=compromise (work for a lousy boss because need money, give up some freedom to live with another person because with=better than without. ad infinitum}.

So find a workable compromise for a difficult situation.

/No dog in this fight, just think both sides are burdened by a large number of contentious assholes.
 
2012-11-04 08:18:26 PM  

austerity101: ElBarto79:

I think gender segregation would at least partly be based on preventing sexual harassment, or are you saying it's perfectly reasonable to eliminate mens and womens changing rooms and just lump everyone together? There are a lot of men that would be ok with this I imagine, especially at the gym, and there are a lot of women who definitely would not be. In fact a lot of women aren't even comfortable exercising in front of men, which is why there are women only gyms. Once the harassment cases start piling up I think you'd start to realize why simply separating men and women is reasonable and fair.

Wouldn't that also mean that we should have kept separate-but-equal accommodations for blacks, so that they weren't persecuted by racist whites? At some point, we have to integrate people so that they can learn how to behave like civilized adults around each other. That doesn't mean that people aren't going to segregate themselves in various ways, but we shouldn't be forcing it to happen as a matter of course and legislation.


Integrating races is one thing, integrating sexes is another. Racial attitudes are largely mental, people grow up learning that one race is "inferior" or different. However gender attitudes have a basis in biology. You put a bunch of hormonal teen boys in a locker room with a bunch of naked girls and it would be insanity. I don't care how much you teach them about being civilized, there is biology at work plain and simple. Even if you were to integrate them from a young age, once the hormones start to kick in you would have harassment. Separating genders is an easy way to prevent this.
 
2012-11-04 08:19:00 PM  

austerity101: "I'm uncomfortable being around people of another sex" is not a reasonable argument for forced segregation.


Make that argument after forcing your way into a rape crisis center, then let us know how well it's received.

/Trigger warning!
 
2012-11-04 08:19:18 PM  
gendertrender.files.wordpress.com

Why shouldn't Colleen be allowed to walk around naked in the women's locker room? Again, it's not what the person looks like that matter. It's what gender the person identifies as.
 
2012-11-04 08:25:14 PM  
It's an interesting scenario.

Some women like dressing like men. So, what if there's a transgendered woman who likes to dress like a man?

So, if I'm a man, and I look like a man, and I like wearing men's clothes, BUT, I identify as a woman, can I go in the bathroom, and you do you think the other women would be freaked out by it? It's an honest question. For example, let's say a transgendered woman who looks like 6'3" actor / boxer Randall "Tex" Cobb walks into a women's locker room and starts undressing, but he's legally a woman. I can only assume he has a huge schlong, at that.

Now, for this scenario, you should imagine him without the shotguns, but the rest is cool.

The point being, where is the line drawn? Would this be acceptable? Or would the transgendered woman have to be a "femme" one?

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-04 08:27:14 PM  
Okay there are 2 possible situations here.

The "transgender" fella has to accept that he will view other people who have the same equipment as him, or people who most definitely have different equipment must accept this "ugly duckling" in their presence, though it's quite obvious that something is "different" about it.

So why must the rest of society "accept it?" Why can't it accept "it", and deal with the fact that he needs to be looking at people with the same equipment as him in the locker room, even if he doesn't "identify with them psychologically?"

fark that shiat. I don't identify with most of the male population in the US, but that doesn't mean I should have the right to use the women's dressing room instead. This is retarded.

The reality of the situation is that it is really farked up to expect other people to carry your baggage.
 
2012-11-04 08:32:52 PM  

orbister: austerity101: orbister:

By the same token, women have no right to get upset if a man walks into the women's changing room, pulls down his trousers, and starts masturbating. They have no right not to be offended, and if they are offended they can and should simply go elsewhere.

Right?

Wrong, because that's indecent exposure at the very least and is therefore a completely separate issue.

It's only "indecent" if some onlookers take offence at it. Which is the issue here, is it not?


No, generally speaking it's more specific than that, although you are correct that theoretically no crime of indecent exposure would be prosecuted if no one pressed charges. Indecent exposure is usually confined to deliberate exposure to someone else, with specific intentions, such as lewdness or intimidation. That doesn't seem to be the case here whatsoever.
 
2012-11-04 08:34:32 PM  

twistofsin: So why must the rest of society "accept it?" Why can't it accept "it", and deal with the fact that he needs to be looking at people with the same equipment as him in the locker room, even if he doesn't "identify with them psychologically?"


No one has to accept it. They merely have to tolerate it. Toleration is not the same as endorsement.

This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.
 
2012-11-04 08:37:43 PM  

ElBarto79: Integrating races is one thing, integrating sexes is another. Racial attitudes are largely mental, people grow up learning that one race is "inferior" or different. However gender attitudes have a basis in biology. You put a bunch of hormonal teen boys in a locker room with a bunch of naked girls and it would be insanity. I don't care how much you teach them about being civilized, there is biology at work plain and simple. Even if you were to integrate them from a young age, once the hormones start to kick in you would have harassment. Separating genders is an easy way to prevent this.


Because they never harass each other outside of locker rooms and bathrooms? Keeping bathroom/locker facilities separate in no way ends harassment. It just manifests elsewhere.

When my hormones kicked in, I liked boys. I didn't harass them. And if I had, it would have been unacceptable.

You're accepting the fact that people are dicks to one another and that we have to separate them because they're dicks to one another. That's unreasonable.

Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.
 
2012-11-04 08:38:19 PM  

austerity101: twistofsin: So why must the rest of society "accept it?" Why can't it accept "it", and deal with the fact that he needs to be looking at people with the same equipment as him in the locker room, even if he doesn't "identify with them psychologically?"

No one has to accept it. They merely have to tolerate it. Toleration is not the same as endorsement.

This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.


How does using the men's change room in any way, shape, or form prevent her from expressing her gender identity? It's a place to shower, shiat, and shave, not a forum for social justice...
 
2012-11-04 08:39:04 PM  

topcon: "I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.


Because we definitely don't let lesbians use women's locker rooms.
 
2012-11-04 08:40:04 PM  

austerity101: twistofsin: So why must the rest of society "accept it?" Why can't it accept "it", and deal with the fact that he needs to be looking at people with the same equipment as him in the locker room, even if he doesn't "identify with them psychologically?"

No one has to accept it. They merely have to tolerate it. Toleration is not the same as endorsement.

This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.


It is not a woman. Did you see the photo? It is a man with man parts that is attracted to woman. Two of the complaints where him wandering the locker room nude around teenagers and children. Story's like this damage the LGBT community sorry your daughter wife, niece etc.. don't want to see my wang, they are going to.
 
2012-11-04 08:40:27 PM  

austerity101: Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.


What makes you think that we aren't already doing that?
 
2012-11-04 08:43:18 PM  
Do you have to "officially" be labeled a woman before you're considered as such in this kind of case?

Serious question:

What's to stop me from simply going into the women's bathroom in a half-hearted attempt at drag, and, when someone calls the police, I simply tell them I identify as a woman? What's to stop non-transgendered perverts from doing this? What's to stop someone from, hell, just going in with full men's clothes on and saying you're really a woman who dresses up as a man? Do we just err on the side of caution and let them all do what they want?

Just like the guy said, the law is unclear in these cases.
 
2012-11-04 08:44:05 PM  
I don't care if you're straight, gay, bi, trans-gendered, or whatever... what sort of idiot thinks that they can expose their penis in a woman's change room and not expect there to be any repercussions?
 
2012-11-04 08:45:01 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: twistofsin: So why must the rest of society "accept it?" Why can't it accept "it", and deal with the fact that he needs to be looking at people with the same equipment as him in the locker room, even if he doesn't "identify with them psychologically?"

No one has to accept it. They merely have to tolerate it. Toleration is not the same as endorsement.

This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.

How does using the men's change room in any way, shape, or form prevent her from expressing her gender identity? It's a place to shower, shiat, and shave, not a forum for social justice...


Which is why we don't even need separate facilites to begin with.

For now, we separate them into men's and women's. According to state law, she has the right to use those facilities designated for her gender. As do we all.

I'd be pretty annoyed, at the least, if I walked into a women's room and all the women said, "You're not woman enough! You have to go use the men's room." It shouldn't matter whether she meets their requirements for being a woman; it only matters if she meets the state's.

Trans people suffer from all kinds of urinary and disgestive problems as a result of avoiding public restrooms. They get far more UTIs than the general public. And this is why.
 
2012-11-04 08:45:17 PM  

austerity101: ElBarto79: Integrating races is one thing, integrating sexes is another. Racial attitudes are largely mental, people grow up learning that one race is "inferior" or different. However gender attitudes have a basis in biology. You put a bunch of hormonal teen boys in a locker room with a bunch of naked girls and it would be insanity. I don't care how much you teach them about being civilized, there is biology at work plain and simple. Even if you were to integrate them from a young age, once the hormones start to kick in you would have harassment. Separating genders is an easy way to prevent this.

Because they never harass each other outside of locker rooms and bathrooms? Keeping bathroom/locker facilities separate in no way ends harassment. It just manifests elsewhere.

When my hormones kicked in, I liked boys. I didn't harass them. And if I had, it would have been unacceptable.

You're accepting the fact that people are dicks to one another and that we have to separate them because they're dicks to one another. That's unreasonable.

Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.


Really not being snarky, but hope that's a nice world you live in. JFK said something about people asking "why?", him asking "Why not?". Why not? Because people.

Young people see black and white (Idid at your age). Colors become muted as you learn more. Good luck.
 
2012-11-04 08:45:26 PM  

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: oren0: Mashaka: oren0:

In the real world, most people are uncomfortable being nude around strangers of the opposite gender. They're even more uncomfotable with their children being nude around nude strangers of the opposite gender. These feelings are not unreasonable.


This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

You solved your own problem there. People don't want their kids exposed, so they don't bring them to nude beaches. Similarly, if they don't want them exposed to in a locker room, the solution is to keep them from going to that locker room.

The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better.

That's not what this trans-gendered person thinks...

This woman isn't asking anything of anyone other than for people not to be jerks. That is generally a reasonable expectation for everyone on earth. What they are asking of her is far less reasonable.

Hey, a wise person once said, "The world doesn't have to accommodate you because things around you offend you or make you feel uncomfortable. The onus is on you to avoid those things in the world, not on the world to change to make you feel better." This applies to this woman as well...

The world doesn't have to change. Other than stop being dicks to someone, which is pretty much a given for how the world shouldn't be to begin with. This woman isn't asking the world to change, but rather, not be assholes toward her.

You might ...


That would mean the world would have to change, now wouldn't it?

Move to Sweden.
 
2012-11-04 08:47:20 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.

What makes you think that we aren't already doing that?


If we were, then we wouldn't even be having this problem. Whatever we're doing to curb harassment isn't working and we're trying to solve the symptoms rather than the problem, which is unfairly affecting the victims of said harassment.
 
2012-11-04 08:50:00 PM  

RedVentrue: That would mean the world would have to change, now wouldn't it?

Move to Sweden.


Are you really arguing that it's for people to stop being assholes is "asking the world to change" so unreasonably?

Demanding tolerance--especially when it's guaranteed by state legislature--is not asking for special accommodation. It's asking for the bare minimum of human dignity.
 
2012-11-04 08:50:47 PM  

evoke: [gendertrender.files.wordpress.com image 356x488]

Why shouldn't Colleen be allowed to walk around naked in the women's locker room? Again, it's not what the person looks like that matter. It's what gender the person identifies as.


Or claims to. Maybe "she" really, really likes little girls?
 
2012-11-04 08:51:09 PM  

austerity101: ElBarto79: Integrating races is one thing, integrating sexes is another. Racial attitudes are largely mental, people grow up learning that one race is "inferior" or different. However gender attitudes have a basis in biology. You put a bunch of hormonal teen boys in a locker room with a bunch of naked girls and it would be insanity. I don't care how much you teach them about being civilized, there is biology at work plain and simple. Even if you were to integrate them from a young age, once the hormones start to kick in you would have harassment. Separating genders is an easy way to prevent this.

Because they never harass each other outside of locker rooms and bathrooms? Keeping bathroom/locker facilities separate in no way ends harassment. It just manifests elsewhere.

When my hormones kicked in, I liked boys. I didn't harass them. And if I had, it would have been unacceptable.

You're accepting the fact that people are dicks to one another and that we have to separate them because they're dicks to one another. That's unreasonable.

Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.


Yes harassment will always occur, but putting boys and girls in a room together, naked, is only going to amplify things. Not only will there be more harassment, but I'd wager it's going to be much more severe and of a sexual nature. Now think about adult women and men showering together, women deal with enough pervs already, but asking them to share a shower with them I think most would find unreasonable. Separating sexes is an easy way to address this. Your approach is like saying instead of locking our doors we should simply teach people that stealing is wrong.

I'm pretty liberal but I'm rational enough to realize that there is the ideal world and there is the real world. The real world does not always have the perfect solutions the idealists imagine.
 
2012-11-04 08:51:23 PM  

mopar1956: It is not a woman. Did you see the photo? It is a man with man parts that is attracted to woman. Two of the complaints where him wandering the locker room nude around teenagers and children. Story's like this damage the LGBT community sorry your daughter wife, niece etc.. don't want to see my wang, they are going to.


You, personally, don't get to define who's a woman and who isn't, legally.
 
2012-11-04 08:52:21 PM  

austerity101: RedVentrue: That would mean the world would have to change, now wouldn't it?

Move to Sweden.

Are you really arguing that it's for people to stop being assholes is "asking the world to change" so unreasonably?

Demanding tolerance--especially when it's guaranteed by state legislature--is not asking for special accommodation. It's asking for the bare minimum of human dignity.


Tolerance is not the standard for human behavior, and with good reason. Tolerance gets abused.
 
2012-11-04 08:52:33 PM  

austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.

What makes you think that we aren't already doing that?

If we were, then we wouldn't even be having this problem. Whatever we're doing to curb harassment isn't working and we're trying to solve the symptoms rather than the problem, which is unfairly affecting the victims of said harassment.


While you've got a good heart, you're very naive. We need practical solutions to our problems, not ideal, academic solutions that sound good, but (unfortunately) will never actually work.
 
2012-11-04 08:57:29 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.

What makes you think that we aren't already doing that?

If we were, then we wouldn't even be having this problem. Whatever we're doing to curb harassment isn't working and we're trying to solve the symptoms rather than the problem, which is unfairly affecting the victims of said harassment.

While you've got a good heart, you're very naive. We need practical solutions to our problems, not ideal, academic solutions that sound good, but (unfortunately) will never actually work.


Much of that ingraining is evolutionary. Aggressive, predatory boys are a survival trait.
 
2012-11-04 08:59:53 PM  

austerity101: Trans people suffer from all kinds of urinary and disgestive problems as a result of avoiding public restrooms. They get far more UTIs than the general public. And this is why.



Do you have a link to back this up? Considering virtually all public restrooms have stalls I don't see why it would be a problem for a trans person to go to the bathroom in privacy. Also, digestive problems? We've all held it before, it may get uncomfortable but I think digestive problems is a bit of a stretch.
 
2012-11-04 09:01:01 PM  
"Sounds like my kind of locker room."
images2.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-11-04 09:01:32 PM  

ElBarto79: Yes harassment will always occur, but putting boys and girls in a room together, naked, is only going to amplify things. Not only will there be more harassment, but I'd wager it's going to be much more severe and of a sexual nature. Now think about adult women and men showering together, women deal with enough pervs already, but asking them to share a shower with them I think most would find unreasonable. Separating sexes is an easy way to address this. Your approach is like saying instead of locking our doors we should simply teach people that stealing is wrong.

I'm pretty liberal but I'm rational enough to realize that there is the ideal world and ther ...


http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/culture_test/tuttle_eckfo r d_post.jpg
 
2012-11-04 09:01:32 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: It is not a woman. Did you see the photo? It is a man with man parts that is attracted to woman. Two of the complaints where him wandering the locker room nude around teenagers and children. Story's like this damage the LGBT community sorry your daughter wife, niece etc.. don't want to see my wang, they are going to.

You, personally, don't get to define who's a woman and who isn't, legally.


Are you really this naive? I under stand the wacky technicality he is getting by on. That doesn't make it right. He describes himself as very sexual and kinky and attracted to woman. So your saying he just turns those feeling off when sitting there nude staring at girls, teenagers and woman. I just don't understand what type of idealistic world you are living in.

All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?
 
2012-11-04 09:04:49 PM  

ElBarto79: austerity101: Trans people suffer from all kinds of urinary and disgestive problems as a result of avoiding public restrooms. They get far more UTIs than the general public. And this is why.


Do you have a link to back this up? Considering virtually all public restrooms have stalls I don't see why it would be a problem for a trans person to go to the bathroom in privacy. Also, digestive problems? We've all held it before, it may get uncomfortable but I think digestive problems is a bit of a stretch.


A simple google of trans harassment regarding public restrooms will demonstrate this. Likewise with "trans" and "uti." I'm not making this up. Actually, I thought that this was pretty common knowledge, and I'm surprised that I'm being asked.
 
2012-11-04 09:05:30 PM  
img600.imageshack.us
If you have a penis, you're a man. If you have a penis and want to wear a dress, you're a sissy.
Good for you, but as much as you want to be female, and want to be treated as female, you're not female. You have no right to be surprised if you're under a whole lot of scrutiny if you're in the women's locker room with you're aforementioned penis. If you are any penised person, and masturbating in the women's room, it goes without saying the coppers will be called. You get no special treatment.

/If you're a woman rubbing one out in the women's locker room however, I want to watch.
//Or help.
 
2012-11-04 09:05:46 PM  

mopar1956: All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?


That's a false argument, since she's not a dude.

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?
 
2012-11-04 09:07:01 PM  

WhippingBoy: austerity101: WhippingBoy: austerity101: Maybe what we should be doing is teaching boys and girls how to behave around each other, instead of looking the other way and saying, "Eh, boys will be boys and they'll harass girls." This is ingrained in them through society, and we allow it to happen.

What makes you think that we aren't already doing that?

If we were, then we wouldn't even be having this problem. Whatever we're doing to curb harassment isn't working and we're trying to solve the symptoms rather than the problem, which is unfairly affecting the victims of said harassment.

While you've got a good heart, you're very naive. We need practical solutions to our problems, not ideal, academic solutions that sound good, but (unfortunately) will never actually work.


We have a practical solution.

It's state law. These people have no power, and the school has already mentioned this. WA law does not allow for the discrimination of people based on gender identity.

That's not an academic solution (ironic choice of words, considering this is a college). This is an actual, real-world solution. People just haven't accepted it. Tough shiat on them.
 
2012-11-04 09:07:47 PM  
Easy solution have a PENIS locker room and a VAGINA locker room so as to accommodate the two HUMAN genders.. If you have a PENIS you must use the PENIS locker room and if you have a VAGINA you must use the VAGINA locker room. If you are a man who no longer has a PENIS thus then you are now to use the VAGINA locker room (unless it was an accident and not a transformation on purpose ). If you are a man with a PENIS but will be PENISLESS soon (on purpose ) you must still use the PENIS locker room until you no longer have said PENIS

All in all just cover your sh*t in front on 6 year olds... Have some class. It's just common sense and human decency.

See what I did there? ^^^^^ no judging
 
2012-11-04 09:09:06 PM  

RedVentrue: Much of that ingraining is evolutionary. Aggressive, predatory boys are a survival trait.


It's extremely easy--and dangerous--to conflate nature with nurture. I think you'll discover that the concept of the predatory prehistoric male is no longer the norm in archaeology and anthropology.
 
2012-11-04 09:11:24 PM  
austerity101:

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?

/Sorry
//Was hanging too low not to pick.
 
2012-11-04 09:11:26 PM  

RedVentrue: Tolerance is not the standard for human behavior, and with good reason. Tolerance gets abused.


Clearly we should be allowed to persecute the hell out of everyone we want, then. It's human nature.
 
2012-11-04 09:12:41 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?

That's a false argument, since she's not a dude.

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?


Yes it is..I don't care what your transgender studies 101 tells you. If you have a penis and like to put into woman you are a man. Granted you may be a man who likes to wear dresses, but a man nonetheless.
 
2012-11-04 09:13:25 PM  

austerity101: ElBarto79: austerity101: Trans people suffer from all kinds of urinary and disgestive problems as a result of avoiding public restrooms. They get far more UTIs than the general public. And this is why.


Do you have a link to back this up? Considering virtually all public restrooms have stalls I don't see why it would be a problem for a trans person to go to the bathroom in privacy. Also, digestive problems? We've all held it before, it may get uncomfortable but I think digestive problems is a bit of a stretch.

A simple google of trans harassment regarding public restrooms will demonstrate this. Likewise with "trans" and "uti." I'm not making this up. Actually, I thought that this was pretty common knowledge, and I'm surprised that I'm being asked.


I did a google search, it looks like transgender people do suffer from uti's more frequently then the general public, but a lot of that has to do with "tucking". That is, tucking your penis and balls between your legs, putting tape over it frequently, and doing so for long periods of time on a regular basis.
 
2012-11-04 09:14:06 PM  
As a man all I have to say is I'm okay with 45 year old tranny using the ladies locker room.

\Seriously Totally okay.
 
2012-11-04 09:15:58 PM  

hbk72777: When you cut it off, then you can use the women's room


You're required to live as a woman for a period of time before the surgery.

epoch_destroi: moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?

Uhm....she wasn't jerking it? She was changing her clothes? And yeah, if you changed your name to Debbie and lived as a woman and identified as a woman, and took all the crap you have to take as a trans person, you would get to change in the locker room that fit your gender identity.

But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.

Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.

/student at tesc


I'm glad to see someone gets it!

oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?


Because we still have the legacy of idiotic religious morality. The sight of the genitals of the opposite sex does no harm!

oren0: This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?


I admit I'm not a father but I do have a grand-niece in the age range you specify. I would have no problem with her in a mixed locker room or on a nude beach. While I have never been on a nude beach (I have rarely been on any beach, they hold no appeal to me) I have been in a group that was very casual about nudity. You feel self-conscious about it for a little bit but that soon passes. (Note: We were not nudists. Nobody simply wandered around naked--nudity was always part of some objective, usually swimming or bathing, although sometimes simply changing clothes.)

JustTheTip: Isn't it against the law for a 45 year old man to expose himself to teenage girls? Why isn't he being arrested and charged as a sex offender? If I went to my gym, entered the women's locker room and then stripped down and sat in their sauna with my wang hanging out, I'm fairly certain that is what would happen to me...

Officer: "Sir, you are under arrest."

Me: "No, it's cool, I think of myself as a woman."

Officer: "Oh, very well then Sir - that is, Ma'am. Please carry on."


There's a lot more involved than just "I think of myself as a woman".
 
2012-11-04 09:18:31 PM  

mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?

That's a false argument, since she's not a dude.

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Yes it is..I don't care what your transgender studies 101 American Psychological Association and all other relevant medical associations tells you. If you have a penis and like to put into woman you are a man. Granted you may be a man who likes to wear dresses, but a man nonetheless.


FTFY.  You're starting to sound like one of those "homosexuality is a mental disorder, I don't care what you say" people.
 
2012-11-04 09:18:48 PM  

Loren: hbk72777: When you cut it off, then you can use the women's room

You're required to live as a woman for a period of time before the surgery.

epoch_destroi: moothemagiccow: So if I change my name to Debbie and wear dresses I can jerk it to naked women in their locker room?

Uhm....she wasn't jerking it? She was changing her clothes? And yeah, if you changed your name to Debbie and lived as a woman and identified as a woman, and took all the crap you have to take as a trans person, you would get to change in the locker room that fit your gender identity.

But nobody gets to jerk it in locker rooms-- not men, not women.

Also, for all of you out there terrified that she would be somehow ~aroused~ by the other people in the gym? Uhhh....are we segregating locker rooms based on sexual orientation rather than gender now? B/c I'm a lesbian and I'm allowed in same the locker room.

/student at tesc

I'm glad to see someone gets it!

oren0: To the people supporting the college here, I'd ask a few simple questions: Why do we have separate locker rooms for men and women? Should we? Does the fact that children use these rooms affect the answer in any way?

Because we still have the legacy of idiotic religious morality. The sight of the genitals of the opposite sex does no harm!

oren0: This is the key assumption that you need to defend, mate.

Tell you what: find 10 fathers of girls aged 5-10. Ask them how they'd feel about their daughters changing in front of naked men every day after swim practice. How many do you think would be OK with this? Fark may be a bastion of acceptance and liberal thought, but most people in the US don't feel this way. How many people take their kids to nude beaches?

I admit I'm not a father but I do have a grand-niece in the age range you specify. I would have no problem with her in a mixed locker room or on a nude beach. While I have never been on a nude beach (I have rarely been on any beach, they hold no appeal to me) I have been in a grou ...


Sitting spread eagle with your junk hanging out around people who are obviously uncomfortable with it doesn't sound very ladylike.
 
2012-11-04 09:22:14 PM  
Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.
 
2012-11-04 09:22:37 PM  
You know your school is Schizo-Liberal when even Liberals think it is too liberal. Evergreen is so liberal they consider Dan Savage straight.....
 
2012-11-04 09:23:03 PM  

ElBarto79: I did a google search, it looks like transgender people do suffer from uti's more frequently then the general public, but a lot of that has to do with "tucking". That is, tucking your penis and balls between your legs, putting tape over it frequently, and doing so for long periods of time on a regular basis.


This is literally the first time I've ever heard anyone say this. When I googled this, the first dozen or so links did not mention this whatsoever, which makes me think you're just pulling something out of your ass, especially since I've known a number of drag queens and I've never heard of any drag queens complaining about chronic UTIs from tucking.

Then again, most of the trans people I know are trans men, and they don't have to tuck. And they also suffer from UTIs more often than the general population. So it's clearly not completely due to tucking. If at all.
 
2012-11-04 09:24:34 PM  
So she is a woman with a six-inch-long clitoris and a hormonal disorder. Stop staring.
 
2012-11-04 09:25:16 PM  

mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.


That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.
 
2012-11-04 09:25:30 PM  
WHy not just one locker room for everyone.
 
2012-11-04 09:27:36 PM  

jetzzfan: wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?

Y chromosome locker room, obviously.


208.116.9.205
 
2012-11-04 09:29:14 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.


I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.
 
2012-11-04 09:30:15 PM  
Hopefully a compromise can be found that leaves both sides satisfied.
 
2012-11-04 09:31:35 PM  

Gunny Highway: Hopefully a compromise can be found that leaves both sides satisfied dissatisfied.


FTFY
 
2012-11-04 09:33:29 PM  

give me doughnuts: WHy not just one locker room for everyone.


When men and women can look at each other naked and not lose their farking minds and act indecently, then we can have one locker room for everyone. Every guy / girl in this thread who has made a comment like "I'm all for tits in the mens locker room" or "i wouldn't mind if she were masturbating in my locker room so long as I can watch and help" is the reason why we can't have nice things. You have to first desexualize nudity.
 
2012-11-04 09:34:50 PM  

Buzzerguy: A transwoman is a woman.


Then your distinction is unnecessary. And yet somehow you thought it would be.

She uses women's facilities.

Sitting down to pee doesn't make you a woman.
 
2012-11-04 09:35:26 PM  

epoch_destroi: Also, for all of you out there screaming about surgery...who should pay for it?


The mental case with a dick who thinks they're a woman. Clearly they want to fit in to that group, and not be a part of some separate other group. Until they can afford to disfigure themselves into thinking they have a body that looks like a woman's, they can try to adjust to the shame of using the other locker room or changing at home.
 
2012-11-04 09:39:47 PM  

jimw: There is nothing sexual about expelling excrement, getting clean or changing clothes.


I invite you to visit 1) a porn site 2) spring break or 3) a strip club. It's going to be a long time before there's nothing sexual about these things, if ever. People still rent Blue Lagoon for wanking material.
 
2012-11-04 09:45:49 PM  

mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.


I think you might be conflating sex with gender.
 
2012-11-04 09:46:54 PM  

gadian: give me doughnuts: WHy not just one locker room for everyone.

When men and women can look at each other naked and not lose their farking minds and act indecently, then we can have one locker room for everyone. Every guy / girl in this thread who has made a comment like "I'm all for tits in the mens locker room" or "i wouldn't mind if she were masturbating in my locker room so long as I can watch and help" is the reason why we can't have nice things. You have to first desexualize nudity.


Kind of this. Honestly, though, I think we need policy change to effect social change. If we wait for the social change first, nothing will ever get done.
 
2012-11-04 09:52:32 PM  

epoch_destroi: She identifies and has been living as a woman. She is a woman, okay?


His penis contradicts that statement.
 
2012-11-04 09:58:02 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.


Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.
 
2012-11-04 09:59:58 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: All these woman have to be exposed to his wang and allow him to look at them because even though hes a man he identifies as woman. The dude can't get dressed in the mens locker room?

That's a false argument, since she's not a dude.

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Yes it is..I don't care what your transgender studies 101 American Psychological Association and all other relevant medical associations tells you. If you have a penis and like to put into woman you are a man. Granted you may be a man who likes to wear dresses, but a man nonetheless.

FTFY.  You're starting to sound like one of those "homosexuality is a mental disorder, I don't care what you say" people.


The American Psychological Association is NOT the final arbiter of what goes on in the real world. If you have a penis, you are a male.
 
2012-11-04 10:02:20 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.


I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.
 
2012-11-04 10:04:02 PM  

RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.


One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.
 
2012-11-04 10:05:26 PM  

mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.


Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.
 
2012-11-04 10:06:51 PM  

austerity101: RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.

One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.


We know this. We are not confusing you flopping your penis around our loves ones because of your psychological problems.
 
2012-11-04 10:06:55 PM  
I have two penises and three vaginas, and something I just call "Loretta". What change room do I use?
 
2012-11-04 10:10:22 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.

Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Yes because most people know a man has a penis and women has a vagina. The locker room is not the place where a mother should have to try defining the difference between gender/sex to six year old while a dude is sitting nude staring at her change.
 
2012-11-04 10:17:46 PM  

austerity101: RedVentrue: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

I think you might be confusing psychology with anatomy. Not to say there is not room in society for a third gender, though.

One's sex and one's gender are not the same thing.


Sex does determine which bathroom, locker room you enter, not gender.
 
2012-11-04 10:25:34 PM  

WhippingBoy: I have two penises and three vaginas, and something I just call "Loretta". What change room do I use?


Apparently whatever one you want. We wouldn't want to offend a 'loretta" no matter how confusing and uncomfortable it might make the rest of the population. You know because the majority have never been right about anything.
 
2012-11-04 10:33:20 PM  

austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: austerity101: mopar1956: Sex refers to a person's biological status and is typically categorized as male, female, or intersex (i.e., atypical combinations of features that usually distinguish male from female). There are a number of indicators of biological sex, including sex chromosomes, gonads, internal reproductive organs, and external genitalia.

From the AMA Sorry he is a male not a dude. I will henceforth refer to him as a male and not a dude. My apologies.

That's one hell of a back-handed apology. Have fun opposing the American Medical Association. I mean, clearly they're wrong, because you have opinions. I'm sure you'll feel right at home in the conservative fundamentalist camp, since they're pretty much the only people willing to oppose major medical associations these issues.

I was just pointing out under their definitions he is a male. I understand fighting the good fight and all but, maybe the locker room isn't the best place. Hell if it was only a college locker room I would be more on your side. When people don't want there children exposed to your penis either put it away or go over to the penis locker room.

I think you might be conflating sex with gender.

Yep. I understanding arguing gender and it's relevance in social settings. I feel locker rooms should be kept down to sex and Imagine I am in the majority here.

Being in the majority is not justification alone for your position. People have used the same argument against gay marriage and racial integration. What is popular is not always right.

Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Actually they're designated with the 99% of the world in mind for whom those two things are the same. That being said, I'm pretty sure the ones with stand-up urinals in them are for those anatomically set up for that use.
 
2012-11-04 10:42:26 PM  

crabsno termites: austerity101:

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?

/Sorry
//Was hanging too low not to pick.


Falwell is dead. He died and went to hell. For eating so much Virginia ham sandwiches that he began to look pig faced---not kosher.
 
2012-11-04 10:58:37 PM  
My two cents. If my daughter correctly told me that a person had a cock out in the women's locker room, that person would be beaten to within an inch of their life. I don't care if you're in the middle of affording surgery or in the middle of affording a cheeseburger. Not my problem.
 
2012-11-04 11:05:08 PM  

austerity101: Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


Says who? If you asked the majority of the population (probably greater than 99%) if gender and sex meant the same thing, they would say yes. The easiest solution is to say that bathroom and locker room designations are split by sex, not gender. This would solve the problem, correct?

The law excluded, the thing that baffles me about situations like this are the "the transgendered person should not be made uncomfortable or put in an awkward position." The reason this boggles my mind is that rather than 1 person being made uncomfortable, now several likely are. In addition to this even with any accommodations that are made that one person is likely still uncomfortable.

//Even taking every consideration into play, sitting spread eagle with your cock out (whether you're a man or a woman) is inappropriate in a woman's sauna.
 
2012-11-04 11:15:55 PM  

Snarfangel: So she is a woman with a six-inch-long clitoris and a hormonal disorder. Stop staring.


THIS.
 
2012-11-04 11:26:33 PM  
I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.
 
2012-11-04 11:29:51 PM  
I know that the people that need to watch this won't (these threads always draw the Free Republic crowd on Fark), but maybe it will open somone's eyes. Jazz, who knew she was really a girl at age three.
 
2012-11-04 11:32:53 PM  

ElBarto79: I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.


Funny when I also brought this guy's own self description no on would reply. I was just being a gender/penis phoebe something or the other.
 
2012-11-04 11:35:01 PM  

mopar1956: ElBarto79: I did some googling around, most in the transgender community do not seem to support this person. Most transgender people are fairly self conscious about their bodies and would probably try to avoid exposing themselves in this manner if they could. There is also an issue of simple politeness, if there are teen girls around having your penis hanging out is at best, very rude and threatening.

By his own description (mostly) this guy is a kinky, horny, heterosexual male He has no intention of getting gender reassignment surgery. He fantasizes about being a teen girl. His interest in this transgender lifestyle seems to be based more on his sexual fantasies than on a true gender disorder. He gets off dressing as a woman and fantasizing about being a teen girl, and now he is strolling around naked in a locker room with a bunch of teen girls. At a certain point his right to self identify collides with a girls right to take a shower without a horny, naked man leering at her and a judgement call needs to be made.

Funny when I also brought this guy's own self description no on would reply. I was just being a gender/penis phoebe something or the other.


Shut up! How dare you suggest somebody the PC crowd likes isn't entirely a victim?
 
2012-11-04 11:37:55 PM  

Repo Man: I know that the people that need to watch this won't (these threads always draw the Free Republic crowd on Fark), but maybe it will open somone's eyes. Jazz, who knew she was really a girl at age three.


Which sounds difficult for jazz. If or when jazz is a 45 year old man with man parts who wants to hang around girls locker rooms with his wang out making teenage and younger girls uncomfortable I will have to say sorry jazz time to go to the boy's room.
 
2012-11-04 11:50:04 PM  
I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.
 
2012-11-05 12:02:18 AM  

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


His right to have his penis out trumps you or anyone's in that locker room. Never mind underage girls have already complained about his penis being out an looking at them while they change. Think progress.

snark aside I'm sorry for your plight and just think the wang's should change with the wang's.
 
2012-11-05 12:04:56 AM  

morgantx: I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


I'm not quote the rest of that because, frankly, it looked very difficult to compose and type, much less have to read all over again. But you made several valid points.

On a side note, as a guy I have an unsettlingly large number of female friends with your experiences. Speaking on behalf of other guys that try to be decent and not monsters, I appreciate that you still make the effort to trust. That sort of PTSD can be a real waking nightmare, but hopefully you have people in your life who stand with you.
 
2012-11-05 12:13:52 AM  

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


No no no, if you feel uncomfortable in that situation it's YOU who has a problem, not him. Likewise if say your 6 year old daughter were to end up in a shower alone with him you shouldn't feel queasy at all, after all he says he's a woman so it's fine. He's a woman who looks like a man, who has a penis, likes having sex with women and is kinky and horny but he's still a woman. Perfectly normal and healthy so don't sweat your daughter being in that shower with him.
 
2012-11-05 12:14:45 AM  
Chances are that if a trans-woman changes in a men's changing room she will probably be harassed or worse.
If a trans-woman changes in a women's changing room the women will fear being harassed or worse.
There isn't a a good solution other than making sexual harassment and assault a lot more rare than it is to the point where we could all change together without anxiety.
Really the two categories are potential rapists' changing room and potential victims' changing room. Having a penis in breast puts you firmly in both categories and there is no room for that.
 
2012-11-05 12:29:04 AM  
"My family was so poor that if I hadn't been born a boy, I wouldn't of had anything to play with."

~Rodney Dangerfield
 
2012-11-05 12:29:09 AM  

Kevin72: crabsno termites: austerity101:

What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?

/Sorry
//Was hanging too low not to pick.

Falwell is dead. He died and went to hell. For eating so much Virginia ham sandwiches that he began to look pig faced---not kosher.


Haven't stayed up with preachers since the '70's when Robert Tilton went screaming out the back gat in his SUV while the Feds were screaming in the front gate
in theirs. Really miss him - best comedy on TV at that time, especially for Sunday morning. My, how that man could simper!
 
2012-11-05 12:34:49 AM  

morgantx: I'm sympathetic to the guy/girl; really, I am. But I'm also a sexual abuse victim. The progressive side of me really, really WANTS to say, "She should be allowed to be naked wherever she wants!" or "We need to do away with segregated locker rooms altogether!" But there's that other niggling little voice inside me that would be terrified. Not because I think that THIS person is a pervert or because I'm afraid of people with penises. But because... How can I put this?

As a woman, I have been raped and sexually assaulted more than once. I don't like going into details (especially on Fark, because I know how you guys are!), but I've had everything from forcible and violent sex to being groped in public by strangers. I don't want to believe that all men are rapists - and I really DON'T believe that! - but my experience tells me that there are enough "bad" men in the world that I have to be cautious about.

My worry is not about the nudity, but about the privacy. I worry... What if I were changing after a workout and this person was hanging out in the dressing room and tried to grab me, to hurt me, to rape me? Whether he self-identifies as a male or a female, the fact is that he's probably a lot bigger and stronger than me. If there were no witnesses, what would happen? How could I feel safe?

I don't WANT to feel this way. I know how narrow-minded and unfair it is for me to judge all males based on the experiences I've had with some of them. I don't WANT to be afraid to be alone with a strange male just because I've been burned by a handful of them. I don't WANT to be insensitive to this person's feelings. But I can't change the fact that if that was happening at my gym, I would simply stop going. To be honest, I can't change the fact that in the pit of my stomach, I would be terrified if I had to be alone and naked in a place with a strange naked man.

I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.


99.9% of your post was in agreement with most rational human thoughts on this thread
I know you want to be progressive but this case can NOT be your calling to defend Colleens right to show PENIS to 6 year olds
 
2012-11-05 12:39:21 AM  

moothemagiccow: jetzzfan: wallywam1: jetzzfan: Just have locker rooms that are by genetics.

You have a Y chromosome, you change in one locker room.

You don't have a Y chromosome, you change in the other locker room.

What if someone is XXY, has developed breasts, and has no external genitalia?

Y chromosome locker room, obviously.


No.
 
2012-11-05 12:45:29 AM  
does it make sense that most of society be made uncomfortable so that a handful of people feel a little more comfortable? this isn't like putting in a ramp for a guy in a wheelchair. this isn't asking a business that has the privelege of selling goods to the public to spend a little of the profit to make it accesible to everyone. this actually puts a real phsycological burden on a lot of women. I thought we were all about pragmatism and doing what made the most sense for the collective.
 
2012-11-05 01:13:59 AM  

HotWingAgenda: morgantx: I don't know what to think about this. I want to be sensitive, but my brain and my gut just won't agree.

I'm not quote the rest of that because, frankly, it looked very difficult to compose and type, much less have to read all over again. But you made several valid points.

On a side note, as a guy I have an unsettlingly large number of female friends with your experiences. Speaking on behalf of other guys that try to be decent and not monsters, I appreciate that you still make the effort to trust. That sort of PTSD can be a real waking nightmare, but hopefully you have people in your life who stand with you.


Studies say 1 in 3 adult women in America has been raped or sexually assaulted. On the one hand, it's hard to believe. On the other hand, I don't really know that many women who haven't been raped, so it kind of sounds legitimate.

At this point, it's not really something that affects me that strongly. I never feel nervous like that in groups, just with individuals. In public, no problem. I'm a lot stronger than I used to be. And in private with someone I trust? Not a problem. In private but clothed? Maybe a little awkward (like, say, a public elevator), but no big deal. But in private but naked? I'm going to be uncomfortable, not with THEIR nudity, but with mine. And it's not about exposure, but about feeling vulnerable. I would be nervous to shower in a locker room behind a flimsy curtain with a male in the room, for example. Probably the same reason I can't stand GYNs... It's the feeling of vulnerability. And it doesn't matter how nice YOU (generic) are - it's about whether I feel comfortable being completely vulnerable in your presence.

I can't explain it. I don't know why it bothers me so much, but it does. Being fully nude in the presence of others is a problem for a LOT of women. Being topless is a problem for some women. I know women who won't even go fully nude in the presence of their own spouses!

relcec: does it make sense that most of society be made uncomfortable so that a handful of people feel a little more comfortable? this isn't like putting in a ramp for a guy in a wheelchair. this isn't asking a business that has the privelege of selling goods to the public to spend a little of the profit to make it accesible to everyone. this actually puts a real phsycological burden on a lot of women. I thought we were all about pragmatism and doing what made the most sense for the collective.


I think this is what bothers me. At what point do the rights of one person overrule the rights of all the other people? What if I have a weird phobia of people touching me but I have no car. Do I have the right to demand that my fellow passengers on a cramped city bus or subway avoid accidentally touching me? If you want to get technical, "unwanted physical contact" constitutes assault and battery, even if that contact is accidentally brushing against somebody's hand. But how far can I go to have my phobia accommodated? Can I demand that the transit authority remove passengers from the bus if they're crowding me? Can I demand that - since that's not realistic - the city provide me with a car and driver so that I'll never have to be bothered by my phobia? What if I could overcome my phobia by wearing gloves? Would I have the right then to insist that the subway car be cleared of passengers because forcing me to wear gloves "infringes upon my right"?

I'm not going to argue about whether Colleen is a girl or a guy, whether it's right or wrong; that's not the point. But IF we presume that she has a legitimate right to use the ladies' locker room, then the question becomes, how far will we go to accommodate her? And at what cost to the rest of the people who may have a need to use that restroom? One of the articles I saw said that the girls' swim teams have been changing in a small room less than half the size of the locker room so that they can avoid seeing Colleen's boy parts; is it fair to move several entire TEAMS of girls to accommodate this one person? Where do we draw the line?
 
2012-11-05 01:21:48 AM  

crabsno termites: What about a trans man who still has a vagina, but no longer has breasts and is sporting a lot of body and facial hair? Where does he go?

Ummmm - ask Jerry Falwell?


Im all for having seperate bathrooms,
Men,
Women,
Trannys and Jerry Falwell.
 
2012-11-05 02:02:39 AM  
Most locker rooms have stalls. Just change in one, noone complains. And yeah, you may have to wear a swimsuits if you are differently equipped. Sorry that life isn't fair.

Incidently, I saw women bringing kids into the women's change room at the gym. Plenty of naked women in there and some lady is parading her eight year old son through the place. I never stripped down past bra and panties, but even then I don't want some little kid seeing me in my skivvies.
 
2012-11-05 02:07:42 AM  

octopied: Most locker rooms have stalls. Just change in one, noone complains. And yeah, you may have to wear a swimsuits if you are differently equipped. Sorry that life isn't fair.

Incidently, I saw women bringing kids into the women's change room at the gym. Plenty of naked women in there and some lady is parading her eight year old son through the place. I never stripped down past bra and panties, but even then I don't want some little kid seeing me in my skivvies.


You sound old.

/So am I
//Perhaps that's why we have at least a little modesty.
///Lost most of mine in Army.
 
2012-11-05 04:36:55 AM  

austerity101: This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.


How would you solve the problem, other than by having either completely mixed group changing rooms or completely separate individual changing rooms?
 
2012-11-05 04:44:23 AM  

austerity101: It's state law. These people have no power, and the school has already mentioned this. WA law does not allow for the discrimination of people based on gender identity.


Are you saying that self-identified women with penises should be allowed to display them in women's changing rooms but that self-identified men with penises should not be allowed to display them in women's changing rooms? Because that's discrimination based on gender identity, you know.
 
2012-11-05 04:47:10 AM  

austerity101: Those signs on the door that say Men/Women? Those aren't sex designations; they're gender designations.


And therefore illegal.
 
2012-11-05 05:07:18 AM  

austerity101: topcon: "I am polyamorous, bisexual (I very much favor women though, and my therapist calls me a lesbian...makes me smile) and kinky."

A former rodeo rider, he is an avid hunter and competitive handgun shooter.

Because we definitely don't let lesbians use women's locker rooms.


Ah, but as long as a lesbian isn't making obvious remarks or keeps staring at other women no one will know and no one will feel uncomfortble. This is probably the main issue. People feel vulnerable when naked, add something to the environment which reduces the perceived safety of the environment and they will try to remove it.

In this case the something was a someone. People passing by will just see the penis, they don't know the entire history of the person. So depending on how feminine a person looks, well, lets just say that,people who are feeling vulnerable aren't really interested in someone's life story. Especially if their children are involved.

If the person in tfa had boobs (and shaves/no longer has facial hair) then a simple towel would probably suffice.
 
2012-11-05 07:04:32 AM  
I'm conflicted on this one...

The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.

Baryogenesis: Any other "think of the children" or "puritanical helicopter parents" article would be met with nothing but disdain here on fark, but I guess we have to make an exception since the person is transgendered.


bingo.

...unfortunately, this might be one of the rare instances where the trans-haters actually have a point -I can understand people not really feeling comfortable getting "locker-room" naked around her if she's pre-op and 45 at a college. The bathroom shouldn't be problem since everyone get's their own stall, but the locker room is much more close.
At the same time though, it's not really fair to her to tell her she has to use the male locker room either.... so I don't know; it's difficult. There must be an extra room somewhere in the building, for staff or something, where she can go until she has surgery.
 
2012-11-05 07:11:06 AM  
To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license changed to say you are a female. Passport too, if you've got one.

Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room. Okay, wanna jack off now? Go ahead. Oh, yeah, you haven't been able to "get it up" in a year and your eyes have started to turn towards guys slowly.

/Had a transgender friend in college
//Learned a lot about the whole thing, she had to go through a helluva lot.
 
2012-11-05 07:26:28 AM  

Silverstaff: Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room.


You're saying that someone who hasn't done all that should not be allowed to use the ladies' locker room, regardless of their gender identity?
 
2012-11-05 07:27:31 AM  

cassanovascotian: The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.


This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.
 
2012-11-05 07:36:21 AM  

Silverstaff: To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license ...


The point is, the law isn't really clear, is it? Do you have to "officially" be labeled a woman by a psychiatrist? Or is it enough just to claim you've been living as a woman for ten years or something?
 
2012-11-05 07:37:40 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.


dontgiveupworld.com

What I said was that this might be one of the rare cases in which it makes a modicum of sense to say that she shouldn't be using the locker room. So some other kind of solution needs to be found.

That being said, as a general rule, the hostility against trans people that gets expressed in the vast majority of fark threads goes way beyond any legitimate privacy concern, and most often comes from a place of hate and prejudice. 

/By the way, your post makes no farking sense. There are going to be 6-year-olds in the male locker room too, y'know
 
2012-11-05 07:54:08 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.


I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.
 
2012-11-05 07:56:03 AM  

orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.


Yes it is! You're an evil heteronormative patriarchical oppressor!
 
2012-11-05 08:12:29 AM  

Silverstaff: To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license changed to say you are a female. Passport too, if you've got one.

Do all that, and sure, you can use the ladies locker room. Okay, wanna jack off now? Go ahead. Oh, yeah, you haven't been able to "get it up" in a year and your eyes have started to turn towards guys slowly.

/Had a transgender friend in college
//Learned a lot about the whole thing, she had to go through a helluva lot.


Getting the gender on your drivers license changed requires filling out a single form and a note from a doctor.
 
2012-11-05 08:14:07 AM  

orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.


Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.
 
2012-11-05 08:16:42 AM  

cassanovascotian: orbister: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: This may come as a shock to members of the PC brigade, but just because somebody doesn't agree 100% with the right of a grown person of any gender being allowed to flaunt his or her penis in front of six year olds doesn't make them the villains from Boys Don't Cry. There is such a thing as disagreeing with some, or even one, member of a minority without being the hate-mongering Nazis you want to paint us all as just for not agreeing with you.

I made a complaint when a grown woman started bringing her ~8 year old son into the men's changing room of my local swimming pool. That's not because I hate women, or because I hate that woman.

Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.


A little different when it''s a six year old girl, and flagrant exhibitionism.
 
2012-11-05 08:19:10 AM  

cassanovascotian: Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.


How do you know it was a gay dude and not a straight woman? Remember that the presence or absence of a penis is not enough to make the distinction.

Ian
 
2012-11-05 08:23:59 AM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: A little different when it''s a six year old girl, and flagrant exhibitionism.


If it were flagrant exhibitionism, then yes, that would be different. We don't really know the situation though.

It amazes me how you seem to think that trans people who just want to live their lives, and do the same things everyone else wants to do should be immediately labelled "exhibitionists." You don't think it's possible that maybe they just wanna work out?
 
2012-11-05 08:33:58 AM  

cassanovascotian: The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.


I disagree on many points of this. First (though there is some anger) the vast majority of this this thread has been somewhat rational discussion of why people feel a certain way about the situation. Second, most people don't care about transgendered people. By don't care I mean don't think about (positively or negatively) with any frequency. There are some who active hate the group, but it is not the "vast majority". Third, one statement that always comes up in these threads is "you don't know what they're feeling. You've never walked a mile in their shoes. You don't know their life experiences", etc. This is the same for people who are against having weird wangs out in front of their daughters. Maybe they were beat up by a transgendered person. Maybe their mom choked on a dick. You don't know, but you attribute it to hate, without knowing what their reasons are.

//I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.
 
2012-11-05 08:39:26 AM  

mjbok: I disagree on many points of this. First (though there is some anger) the vast majority of this this thread has been somewhat rational discussion of why people feel a certain way about the situation. Second, most people don't care about transgendered people. By don't care I mean don't think about (positively or negatively) with any frequency. There are some who active hate the group, but it is not the "vast majority". Third, one statement that always comes up in these threads is "you don't know what they're feeling. You've never walked a mile in their shoes. You don't know their life experiences", etc. This is the same for people who are against having weird wangs out in front of their daughters. Maybe they were beat up by a transgendered person. Maybe their mom choked on a dick. You don't know, but you attribute it to hate, without knowing what their reasons are.

//I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.


ahem... let me repeat this one more time:

There are children in both locker rooms.

If she was changing in the male locker room, you'd be saying "I don't want this person changing in front of 6-year-old boys" -so let's drop the whole "oh won't someone think of the children" line, allright.

That being said, yes, it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really have an easy solution to this.

Do you? Where do you think this person should get changed?
or are you gonna side with most people that she shouldn't be allowed to go to gyms at all, and just basically shouldn't exist.
 
2012-11-05 08:45:24 AM  

cassanovascotian: mjbok: I disagree on many points of this. First (though there is some anger) the vast majority of this this thread has been somewhat rational discussion of why people feel a certain way about the situation. Second, most people don't care about transgendered people. By don't care I mean don't think about (positively or negatively) with any frequency. There are some who active hate the group, but it is not the "vast majority". Third, one statement that always comes up in these threads is "you don't know what they're feeling. You've never walked a mile in their shoes. You don't know their life experiences", etc. This is the same for people who are against having weird wangs out in front of their daughters. Maybe they were beat up by a transgendered person. Maybe their mom choked on a dick. You don't know, but you attribute it to hate, without knowing what their reasons are.

//I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.

ahem... let me repeat this one more time:

There are children in both locker rooms.

If she was changing in the male locker room, you'd be saying "I don't want this person changing in front of 6-year-old boys" -so let's drop the whole "oh won't someone think of the children" line, allright.

That being said, yes, it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really have an easy solution to this.

Do you? Where do you think this person should get changed?
or are you gonna side with most people that she shouldn't be allowed to go to gyms at all, and just basically shouldn't exist.


Wow, that's way the hell out of nowhere. I'm pretty sure most of us here on the non-PC side here, contrary to your paranoia, aren't calling for the eradication or oppression of anybody. We just think the existing, widespread standard of penises where the little boys change/vaginas where the little girls change should apply here even if the grown adult here doesn't want to have said penis attached to them.
 
2012-11-05 08:54:45 AM  

topcon: The point is, the law isn't really clear, is it? Do you have to "officially" be labeled a woman by a psychiatrist? Or is it enough just to claim you've been living as a woman for ten years or something?


No, the point is there are people who see a penis and freak out and then there are the ones who say you are what you are born with and that's immutable, despite the we

It is perfectly reasonable for the school (or gym or whatever) to require some kind of documentation of being legally female (like a birth certificate or driver's license) or at least medical documentation (a letter from an M.D.). Just saying it? Yeah, that could be a recipe for jokers like the guys in this thread. To get some paperwork backing up that claim is a long and difficult process though. 

Yeah, I had one friend in college who was a male-to-female transsexual, and I saw what she went through.

By the same token, I had another friend (well, acquaintance, was more of a friend-of-a-friend) who was nowhere near as serious about it all. He had his friends call him by a female version of his name, and changed his name on facebook to be that female version. He'd go out dressed up as a woman occasionally, but still went to work as a man. He'd insist he wasn't just a transvestite and he had actual gender identity issues, but he refused to see a therapist for treatment or actually go through normal channels to transition. He even met my MtF friend, and she offered him the name of her therapist and endocrinologist and psychiatrist, but he brushed it off.

The biggest thing he was shut down for was that he had a couple of friends who worked for a womens residential drug treatment facility. For obvious reasons, they wanted female staffers watching the female clients. He applied there for a job. His friends had told the director that he was transgender and it shouldn't be a problem.

Apparently he wasn't female enough. I don't know the details of the interview, but he was apparently told that while they are an open-minded place and wouldn't have problems with a transgendered female employee, he was nowhere near close enough to count. Probably his lack of legal substantiating documents, lack of any evidence he lived as a woman full-time, or was anything other than a guy with a few gender issues who needed a job. He tried to spin it to us about how ignorant and narrow minded the director was. Of course, the fact she was a Psychiatrist AND a Clinical Psychologist (as in an M.D. and a Ph.D. in Psychology) meant that she generally knew what she was talking about in this regard.

Didn't help either that later on they hired an actual transgender employee, but this was one had transitioned and was pre-op. She might have still had male hardware, but she had a much stronger claim on being female thanks to a big pile of clinical documentation.
 
2012-11-05 09:04:25 AM  

mjbok: I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.


Agreed. When people get nude in a non-sexual situation, they generally don't want to feel that people who might be sexually interested in them are eyeing them up. That's why we have male and female changing rooms, and though of course they include gay people that's a fairly small proportion of the population and also inherently non-obvious. It's simply human nature, and not a particularly bad side of human nature, that many straight women are going to we worried by someone who looks like a man in the changing room with them.

No easy solution.
 
2012-11-05 09:13:03 AM  

cassanovascotian: If she was changing in the male locker room, you'd be saying "I don't want this person changing in front of 6-year-old boys" -so let's drop the whole "oh won't someone think of the children" line, allright.


I agree that the children side of things is a red herring here. Up to six or seven, children generally get changed with whoever brought them, and nobody cares.

cassanovascotian: Do you? Where do you think this person should get changed? or are you gonna side with most people that she shouldn't be allowed to go to gyms at all, and just basically shouldn't exist.


Leaving the final hysteria aside, she should change wherever it causes minimal distress to other people, out of common courtesy. That could mean using a private cubicle in the women's side, or, if there is one, a separate private changing space. It's very common here for pools to have "Male", "Female" and "Family" changing areas, the last being where you go if you want to keep it all covered up.
 
2012-11-05 09:29:59 AM  

orbister: she should change wherever it causes minimal distress to other people, out of common courtesy. That could mean using a private cubicle in the women's side, or, if there is one, a separate private changing space. It's very common here for pools to have "Male", "Female" and "Family" changing areas, the last being where you go if you want to keep it all covered up.


That would be the ideal solution: a male locker room, a femal locker room, and a "family" locker room, with a little extra privacy for people.

At the moment, however, the facility in question doesn't have a third locker room, so the whole "wherever it causes minimum distress" idea doesn't work. People here are angry that she's using the female locker room, and if she uses the male locker room, people there are going to get angry -and perhaps even violent. And even with the "family room" solution, I guarantee that people are going to get pissed about that too, since the family room is where parents are taking their kids, and they don't want trans people there either.
It's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, and no matter where she goes, people are going to be "distressed" and hostile. -because in the end, this really isn't about the locker room.
 
2012-11-05 09:31:08 AM  
Ugh... these freaks again. I don't give a shiat what gender they "identify with" they don't deserve any special treatment.
 
2012-11-05 09:38:55 AM  

cassanovascotian: The vast majority of anger in this thread has nothing to do with concern for people in the changeroom. It's because you guys are basically hateful people who don't like transgendered's and want to clutch at any possible excuse you can get to shiat on them.


Social justice movements have the capacity to effect lasting, important changes in society. However, labelling everyone who disagrees with you as a hate-filled bigot is incredibly detrimental to whatever cause you're trying to promote. People are ignorant and love to stereotype (even "good" people). Perceptions and beliefs need to change, but they're not going to change over night. If you choose to attack these people instead of educate them, they're not going to be very open to what you have to say.

Like someone said, all you need it love... that applies to *both* sides of the coin...
 
2012-11-05 10:04:40 AM  

Silverstaff: To those who ask "why can't I just call myself a woman so I can use the ladies locker room and ogle them and do lewd things"?

Okay, you can do that if you go through all the steps.

1. See a therapist and get a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder, by convincing your therapist that you are mentally/emotionally a woman instead of a man and this incongruity is seriously messing up your life.

2. Begin living as a woman. Wear womens clothes, learn female body language, change your name to a female name, tell everybody at work you're a woman now (or start a new career from scratch as a woman). Do this even though narrow minded bigots will tell you you're a bad person (like many farkers here), but you still prefer the glares and stares to how you feel living as a man. Learning to speak in a higher register or getting your voice-box surgically altered to give you a higher-pitched voice is not required, but recommended.

3. Begin taking hormone therapy. Plenty of anti-androgens like spironolactone to basically shut off testosterone production, lots of estrogen and progesterone. You won't be "jacking it" because "it" will be limp as a noodle from now on, and begin to slowly shrink, and your balls will shrivel up to the size of small marbles because they've shut down completely. Your sex drive may (but not definitely) shift from liking women to liking men as the hormones work on your brain. You'll start to grow boobs and get curves, slowly. If you're still doing this for the gym, you're going to need some sports bras.

4. Once an M.D. writes a letter certifying that you are essentially female (after the hormones have essentially chemically castrated you and a therapist has talked to you for many months or a few years and certified that you think and act just like a woman instead of a man) go and get your vital documents amended/changed (different states do it different ways). Have your birth certificate changed to say you are a female. Have your driver's license ...


so you are saying people ask for your transgender papers when you are a transgender? and you are perfectly fine with tranny's being required to produce them on the spot whenever asked? your fine with papers please? I call bullshiat.

in your ideal world anyone who felt female at any our of the day could saunter into the ladies room and scream racist! if anyone asked wtf they and there dong was doing there.
 
2012-11-05 10:11:34 AM  

WhippingBoy: Perceptions and beliefs need to change, but they're not going to change over night. If you choose to attack these people instead of educate them, they're not going to be very open to what you have to say.

Like someone said, all you need it love... that applies to *both* sides of the coin...


When hate-filled people change their minds and recant, should we offer them love and forgiveness? -of course.

But unfortunately, perceptions don't change until they are confronted. Rabid segregationists of the south simply would not change their minds until they were confronted and shamed.
"Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable... Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals."
in other words, Society will never improve unless we're willing to fight for it.

So can't we all just get along? No, we can't, that's the unfortunate reality.

And let's not talk about "both sides of the coin" as if "both sides" of the "debate" (should we or should we not treat people who are different as human beings worthy of respect) contain equal moral legitimacy -'cause that's just not the case.
 
2012-11-05 10:18:29 AM  
I think it's funny that those who insist it's as easy as "Penis one side, vagina the other" would have Buck Angel in the women's dressing room. This person has a vagina, so no problem with your precious snowflake wives and daughters right?

i50.tinypic.com
 
2012-11-05 10:37:19 AM  
The solution is to shut down all change rooms everywhere so that no one ever gets offended.

You wanna swim in a pool? Go build your own farking one.
 
2012-11-05 11:19:42 AM  

cassanovascotian: That would be the ideal solution: a male locker room, a femal locker room, and a "family" locker room, with a little extra privacy for people.

At the moment, however, the facility in question doesn't have a third locker room, so the whole "wherever it causes minimum distress" idea doesn't work. People here are angry that she's using the female locker room ...


It seems to me more that they are angry that she is waving her penis around the female locker room. Would it kill her to use a cubicle?
 
2012-11-05 11:28:45 AM  

cassanovascotian: Some gay dude was checkin' me out in the shower of the locker room a while back.
I took it as a compliment, and didn't get all bent out of shape about it.



gotcha, so women should feel flattered to be required to shower with strange naked random men who are checking them out.
 
2012-11-05 11:36:40 AM  

relcec: so you are saying people ask for your transgender papers when you are a transgender? and you are perfectly fine with tranny's being required to produce them on the spot whenever asked? your fine with papers please? I call bullshiat.


No, I didn't say that one bit.

Frankly, a driver's license or passport saying "female" should be good enough

Now, as someone else said, all that takes is filling out a form and a letter from an M.D., however, an M.D. takes a lot of convincing to issue such a letter (or at least it did in what I saw). Those lengthy steps are what it would take (at least from what I've seen) to issue such papers.

I wasn't saying they had to produce a stack of papers on request, just the same legal documentation anybody else would have to prove, but the standard to change those papers is fairly high.
 
2012-11-05 12:06:43 PM  

cassanovascotian: mjbok: I disagree on many points of this. First (though there is some anger) the vast majority of this this thread has been somewhat rational discussion of why people feel a certain way about the situation. Second, most people don't care about transgendered people. By don't care I mean don't think about (positively or negatively) with any frequency. There are some who active hate the group, but it is not the "vast majority". Third, one statement that always comes up in these threads is "you don't know what they're feeling. You've never walked a mile in their shoes. You don't know their life experiences", etc. This is the same for people who are against having weird wangs out in front of their daughters. Maybe they were beat up by a transgendered person. Maybe their mom choked on a dick. You don't know, but you attribute it to hate, without knowing what their reasons are.

//I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.

ahem... let me repeat this one more time:

There are children in both locker rooms.

If she was changing in the male locker room, you'd be saying "I don't want this person changing in front of 6-year-old boys" -so let's drop the whole "oh won't someone think of the children" line, allright.

That being said, yes, it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really have an easy solution to this.

Do you? Where do you think this person should get changed?
or are you gonna side with most people that she shouldn't be allowed to go to gyms at all, and just basically shouldn't exist.


If you want to see the hate and anger in this thread, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Regarding children: yes I know there are kids under the age of six in the opposite gender (or sex if you prefer) locker room. I am talking about kids that are older and are "coming of age" having to deal with the wang of someone on display for all to see.

I don't have any daughters, only sons, but if I did that would make me uncomfortable. Does that make me a bigot? No, it makes me a parent.

By the way most people do show some modesty in a locker room when a young child is around.
 
2012-11-05 12:33:17 PM  

mjbok: cassanovascotian: mjbok: I disagree on many points of this. First (though there is some anger) the vast majority of this this thread has been somewhat rational discussion of why people feel a certain way about the situation. Second, most people don't care about transgendered people. By don't care I mean don't think about (positively or negatively) with any frequency. There are some who active hate the group, but it is not the "vast majority". Third, one statement that always comes up in these threads is "you don't know what they're feeling. You've never walked a mile in their shoes. You don't know their life experiences", etc. This is the same for people who are against having weird wangs out in front of their daughters. Maybe they were beat up by a transgendered person. Maybe their mom choked on a dick. You don't know, but you attribute it to hate, without knowing what their reasons are.

//I think the problem most people have is a person (who by their own admission is into women) hanging out (literally) in the women's locker room, including in front of children.

ahem... let me repeat this one more time:

There are children in both locker rooms.

If she was changing in the male locker room, you'd be saying "I don't want this person changing in front of 6-year-old boys" -so let's drop the whole "oh won't someone think of the children" line, allright.

That being said, yes, it's a legitimate concern, and I don't really have an easy solution to this.

Do you? Where do you think this person should get changed?
or are you gonna side with most people that she shouldn't be allowed to go to gyms at all, and just basically shouldn't exist.

If you want to see the hate and anger in this thread, perhaps you should look in the mirror.

Regarding children: yes I know there are kids under the age of six in the opposite gender (or sex if you prefer) locker room. I am talking about kids that are older and are "coming of age" having to deal with the wang of someone on display for ...


I was in for most of this thread and I didn't see one person say he shouldn't exist or shouldn't be allowed in the gym. The general consensus seems to be have him change in the mens room. Persecution complex much from the pc crowd.
 
2012-11-05 04:30:37 PM  
One thing I never truly understood with these cases is why someone's psychologically perceived gender should be given more respect than their biological sex. Who cares how you 'feel', you are what you are... learn to accept it. I feel pity for transexuals because they are completely unhappy with who they are an constantly chase to obtain a body image that is not their own. They go through years of confusion, therapy, expensive and painful surgery to try to fit this image in their mind of what they 'should be'.

I say if you are born with male characteristics, but feel like a woman... take more male hormones until you 'feel' like a man.

If you are born with female characteristics, but feel like a man.. take more female hormones until you feel like a woman.

Physicological "feelings" are just fleeting states of emotion. Your chromosonal-designated sex is more core to who you are then your psychological image of yourself. The mind and the beliefs we hold are much less reliable then the physical information encoded in our DNA.

Accept how you are. Embrace yourself as-is, without modification.

//And dont show your penis to children.
 
2012-11-05 05:07:25 PM  
My kid brother goes to Evergreen. It's really, really liberal. Like, even more liberal than you'd expect from someplace in Washington. One of his professors makes acid and sells it to the kids he lets live in his house. I'm not surprised that they let transgenders change based on where they identify rather than their physical sex.
 
2012-11-05 05:30:42 PM  
You know, the least she could have done is cover herself up. That's what I did when I was a kid and too embarrassed to change in the locker room- put a towel around my waste to keep people from seeing my dingaling.
 
2012-11-05 11:15:39 PM  

orbister: austerity101: This woman has a right to express her gender identity and orientation free of discrimination as guaranteed by the state. Everyone who tries to deny her this is in direct violation of all relevant laws and statutes.

How would you solve the problem, other than by having either completely mixed group changing rooms or completely separate individual changing rooms?


Read his profile.

"I believe in unisex bathrooms.

I believe in incestuous marriages.

I believe in the legalization of bestiality.

I believe that our age-of-consent laws lead to an uncomfortable gap between when people come of sexual age and when they are legally allowed to have sex."
 
2012-11-06 10:46:30 AM  
THAT should a real litmus test for gender identification.
 
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