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(Business Insider)   Penn Dept of Environmental Protection: "So we found high levels of benzene and arsenic in the bodies of residents near your fracking sites." Natural Gas companies: "We didn't ask you to look for that." PDEP: "Oh yeah, sounds good. Nevermind"   (businessinsider.com) divider line 123
    More: Scary, Radical Environmentalism, Western Pennsylvania, toxic metal, toxicology testing, petroleum industry, drinking water, Pennsylvania, NYSE Composite  
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3463 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Nov 2012 at 3:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
 
2012-11-03 10:33:35 PM
There will be small, short-lived riots no matter who wins.
 
2012-11-03 11:54:48 PM

BarkingUnicorn: There will be small, short-lived riots no matter who wins.


And we, as a country, will deserve it. Every ounce of it.
 
2012-11-03 11:57:10 PM
welp. looks like bottled water time.
 
2012-11-03 11:59:26 PM
I think the best course of action is to remove as many regulations from business as possible because the free market will ensure they do the right thing.
 
2012-11-04 12:08:23 AM
Enjoy your glorious free market citizens. I'd like to call one person out in particular who lives nearby this to show them what actually happens when we follow their worldview, but that will probably get me banned.
 
2012-11-04 12:19:08 AM
Man your pitchforks, men! We got ourselves an article that doesn't state any particular levels of contamination but surely the industrialists are to blame for this, uh, something, I guess.
 
2012-11-04 02:05:16 AM
If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.
 
2012-11-04 02:37:14 AM
EnviroDude:

It's funny that you think you have any credibility.
 
2012-11-04 03:41:25 AM

Ed Finnerty: EnviroDude:

It's funny that you think you have any credibility.


It's funny that you assume what I wrote is not correct. If you have shallow methane beds and set your well in them, guess what! You can light your water as it comes out the spigot. Granted, I do not work in the Marcellus Shale, so I make a few presumptions about the depths of cracking versus the depths of the screened intervals of the drinking water wells.

Now, if you dispute that arsenic is naturally occurring, or that a carbon filtration system would remove it and BTEX from drinking water, then you simply demonstrate to all that you would have done better not to reply to the post as it works wonderfully.

Or do you dispute that?
 
2012-11-04 03:58:42 AM

EnviroDude: spigot


In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.
 
2012-11-04 04:01:17 AM
And this is why, when someone complains about 'red tape' strangling business, I want to slap them.
 
2012-11-04 04:02:05 AM
What is it with that state and ignoring things you know you shouldn't?
 
2012-11-04 04:07:03 AM
It very well may be true, but the "article" references no facts or citations, nor does it provide any rebuttal or comment from the defense.

Hit piece.
 
2012-11-04 04:17:00 AM

jbuist: We got ourselves an article that doesn't state any particular levels of contamination but surely the industrialists are to blame for this, uh, something, I guess.


The testing appears to have been about markers more than levels. For some reason TFA didn't link to the original Times article, but here you go.

I'm inclined to support fracking, if only because it's opposed in NY the same dipshiats who think Indian Point should be closed because of OMG TSUNAMI MOTHRA.
 
2012-11-04 04:19:21 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.


Oh, put a cork in your soda.
 
2012-11-04 04:23:25 AM

SilentStrider: welp. looks like bottled water time.


This Fraque Springs stuff looks pretty good.
 
2012-11-04 04:26:37 AM

Gulper Eel: jbuist: We got ourselves an article that doesn't state any particular levels of contamination but surely the industrialists are to blame for this, uh, something, I guess.

The testing appears to have been about markers more than levels. For some reason TFA didn't link to the original Times article, but here you go.

I'm inclined to support fracking, if only because it's opposed in NY the same dipshiats who think Indian Point should be closed because of OMG TSUNAMI MOTHRA.


You really shouldn't taunt Tsunami Mothra.

Just sayin.
 
2012-11-04 04:27:07 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.


It's called a tap, Alistair
 
2012-11-04 04:34:28 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.


You may get water from a faucet and drink pop at the beach but we in Marcellus region drink soda at the shore and get arsenic from a spigot.
 
2012-11-04 04:44:38 AM
You can tell he was high of out of his mind when he wrote that article.

FTA "I would buy everyone in the world right now a frozen custard, just so they would realize how special the Jersey Shore is. And then they would donate whatever they could afford to the American Red Cross."

But he is right.
 
2012-11-04 04:47:19 AM

RubberBandMan: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

You may get water from a faucet and drink pop at the beach but we in Marcellus region drink soda at the shore and get arsenic from a spigot.


Does Marcellus look like a beach?
 
2012-11-04 04:49:14 AM
I live right in the heart of all this fracking. There are wells everywhere. There's even a well going in on our college campus. Wait till it flares and the pollution gets trapped in the valley...

/spigot
//not soda
///enjoying my carcinogenic water
////crappy article is crappy
 
2012-11-04 04:55:19 AM
How many times do we have to tell you?

Marcellus Shale doesn't like to be fracked by anybody except Mrs. Shale.
 
2012-11-04 05:05:42 AM

What is it about pressure people find confusing?

And how is it they allow people who specialize in the science of it THAT OBVIOUSLY KNOW BETTER lie to them about it?

Fluids and gasses found in (or placed) deeeep into the earth, can get pushed to the surface. (far out, right?)



Things that go up here, can fall down.

*****************HI IM TEH SURFACE OF THE EARF*******************


Things down here can get pushed up.



Why do you think they needed to invent this thing called a blowout preventer?

So you poke holes in the earth, then you blast out caverns of rock to loosen up shiat and free the precious fuel.
I'm sure there is no way that shiat will eventually settle, leaving paths for what is left down there to make it's way back to the surface.

And this doesn't even need to enter shiatty abandoned well caps and faulty casings into the discussion.
 
2012-11-04 05:07:57 AM
"Toxicology tests on the plaintiffs found the presence of toluene, benzene and arsenic in their bodies, according to the complaint."

...and how much did they find in the drinking water around the site?

How much was naturally occurring?

What level of "contamination" was found? Parts per million? Billion? Trillion? 

The first rule of biased science writing: toss out a list of chemicals "found" somewhere, but not the amounts, and never tell anyone that they've been found in the water there since well before humans moved onto the continent...
 
2012-11-04 05:24:24 AM

cirby: ...and how much did they find in the drinking water around the site?

How much was naturally occurring?



With the PA DEP and EPA, we may never know :P

It's an important distinction though you are right. If we do ever give a shiat about doing this responsibly we have to learn and separate the wharblgargle from the legitimate incidents that require investigating.

I usually don't like the "both sides" bullshiat, but in this case it's valid. Both sides muddy the issue so much it's hard to tell what is important data and what isn't.

When it isn't important people insist it is and it's the end of the world, when it is important it's marginalized, covered up, written off or the goal posts are moved. Or better yet they get courts to slap gag orders on anything damning (industrial secrets dont ya know).

And you'll find getting good baseline information is next to impossible. Again, stuff either wasn't tested for, wasn't tested properly, was tested well after possible contamination (hardly a baseline) or the records are lost.

Nothing approaching science, that I've seen, has surrounded this issue. There is too much money and too many risks involved. No ones motivation is legit study, it's either "NIMBY!" or "Get that cash!"

One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.
 
2012-11-04 05:30:47 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: RubberBandMan: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

You may get water from a faucet and drink pop at the beach but we in Marcellus region drink soda at the shore and get arsenic from a spigot.

Does Marcellus look like a beach?


Underrated post
 
2012-11-04 05:34:02 AM

MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.


The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.
 
2012-11-04 05:50:11 AM

Owangotang: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: RubberBandMan: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

You may get water from a faucet and drink pop at the beach but we in Marcellus region drink soda at the shore and get arsenic from a spigot.

Does Marcellus look like a beach?

Underrated post


very underrated.
 
2012-11-04 05:52:50 AM
Anyone see those "We wont do it if it's dangerous" type adds from the drilling companies? How farking stupid do they think we are?
If I can light my tap water on fire all bets are off.
 
2012-11-04 05:53:06 AM

starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.


Nothing partisan about expecting responsibility from all parties.

I think there is room for responsibility to be shared. I think it should be the land owners responsibility to have the tests done before/during/after ...also in my little ideal world, the government would insist and verify that it happened to a more than satisfactory level of quality and impartiality.

Sounds easy... but we sure screwed it up here.
 
2012-11-04 05:55:56 AM
I love how industrialists claim they're coming to the defense of the scientific method by asking for more details on the levels of these contaminants and how they compare to naturally occurring levels. Benzene and toluene would only be found in concentration together if it was artificially concentrated benzene (two steps in the process of producing concentrated benzene are toluene hydrodealkylation and toluene disproportionation). But that isn't even your main error here, knuckleheads!

The main error would be to assume that a scientist would say anything other than 'More study is needed' when faced with evidence of a public water source possibly being contaminated by nearby hydrofracking. But that's not what the Penn Dept of Environmental Protection did! Instead they brushed this evidence aside and let the Natural Gas industry continue along their potentially dangerous path.

Natural Gas has the potential to change american energy, and thus we are at a crossroads. Will we slow down this race to frack just long enough to ensure these industry practices that will soon become standard are safe and optimally effective? Or will we rush in guns blazing and just cross our fingers, hoping no innocent families suffer cancer or children born with birth defects due to our all-consuming thirst for profit.

UG. There's no reason to jump to the fringes on this one, people.
 
2012-11-04 05:56:58 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.


Actually in Pittsburgh they're called "spickets"
 
2012-11-04 06:08:20 AM

washburn777: Natural Gas has the potential to change american energy, and thus we are at a crossroads. Will we slow down this race to frack just long enough to ensure these industry practices that will soon become standard are safe and optimally effective? Or will we rush in guns blazing and just cross our fingers, hoping no innocent families suffer cancer or children born with birth defects due to our all-consuming thirst for profit.


For the industry it's a clear case of moral hazard.

To them, it's so much easier and makes infinitely more financial sense to ask for forgiveness later than it is to ask for permission.

If they risk poisoning a family or a community or ruining X acres of land for the future, they already made their money. They will whittle down the effects of any litigation (that will probably never make it to them anyways) until it's insignificant to the bottom line.

It's the beauty of corporate America. It's a whole different set of rules.

They can commit what would be for an individual capital offenses many times over and on a massive scale and AT THE VERY WORST take a nasty stock hit, deploy golden parachutes and start over somewhere else.
 
2012-11-04 06:09:24 AM

starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.


Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.
 
2012-11-04 06:09:33 AM

EnviroDude: Ed Finnerty: EnviroDude:

It's funny that you think you have any credibility.

It's funny that you assume what I wrote is not correct. If you have shallow methane beds and set your well in them, guess what! You can light your water as it comes out the spigot. Granted, I do not work in the Marcellus Shale, so I make a few presumptions about the depths of cracking versus the depths of the screened intervals of the drinking water wells.

Now, if you dispute that arsenic is naturally occurring, or that a carbon filtration system would remove it and BTEX from drinking water, then you simply demonstrate to all that you would have done better not to reply to the post as it works wonderfully.

Or do you dispute that?


Slow down. You seem to have missed the point that the fracking appears to be causing an increase in contaminants. Or, do you dispute that?

Who pays to put these filtration systems in? Those using the water or those extracting the hydrocarbons?

Saying there's a fix doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
 
2012-11-04 06:12:02 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: RubberBandMan: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

You may get water from a faucet and drink pop at the beach but we in Marcellus region drink soda at the shore and get arsenic from a spigot.

Does Marcellus look like a beach?


Holy fark. Please tell me that Boobies isn't one of your alts and this actually Gappened. Roflmao
 
2012-11-04 06:13:47 AM

MurphyMurphy: washburn777: Natural Gas has the potential to change american energy, and thus we are at a crossroads. Will we slow down this race to frack just long enough to ensure these industry practices that will soon become standard are safe and optimally effective? Or will we rush in guns blazing and just cross our fingers, hoping no innocent families suffer cancer or children born with birth defects due to our all-consuming thirst for profit.

For the industry it's a clear case of moral hazard.

To them, it's so much easier and makes infinitely more financial sense to ask for forgiveness later than it is to ask for permission.

If they risk poisoning a family or a community or ruining X acres of land for the future, they already made their money. They will whittle down the effects of any litigation (that will probably never make it to them anyways) until it's insignificant to the bottom line.

It's the beauty of corporate America. It's a whole different set of rules.

They can commit what would be for an individual capital offenses many times over and on a massive scale and AT THE VERY WORST take a nasty stock hit, deploy golden parachutes and start over somewhere else.


This.

Fracking can be done safely, but it won't be in the us.
 
2012-11-04 06:16:42 AM

MurphyMurphy: Nothing partisan about expecting responsibility from all parties.

I think there is room for responsibility to be shared. I think it should be the land owners responsibility to have the tests done before/during/after ...also in my little ideal world, the government would insist and verify that it happened to a more than satisfactory level of quality and impartiality.

Sounds easy... but we sure screwed it up here.


Yup.


liam76: Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.


Nope.
 
2012-11-04 06:21:07 AM

liam76: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.


You missed the point entirely.

If there was sound and impartial testing and science surrounding the practice we would have definitive answers to our questions about safety and impact.

I know it's possible for fluids and gasses in the earth to escape. But I can only guess as to whether that is occurring with fraking. In science we base our conclusions on solid and impartial data and observations. An assumption (hypothesis) is only the very first step.

We don't have this data. The focus here is obtaining it. Accurate testing... not whatever you managed to read into my comment.

If the method they are using can be done so that there is such an incredibly small chance of pollution, and then if we are able to quickly identify when that might happen, we have a pretty safe plan of attack and a kick ass energy source we badly need. If it isn't, we need to stop doing it immediately, or at least isolate the practice to areas where we know we aren't going to be royally farking someones water supply up.
 
2012-11-04 06:21:30 AM
The sucking oil isn't going anywhere. It will still be there in ten years once the figure how to do this properly. Let someone else suffer through the beta testing. We can afford to wait.
 
2012-11-04 06:26:35 AM
Kill baby kill!
 
2012-11-04 06:31:38 AM

Girl From The North Country: I think the best course of action is to remove as many regulations from business as possible because the free market will ensure they do the right thing.


Already been done. The invisible hand of the free market created a government complete with regulatory agencies in order to police itself. Invisibly, of course.
 
2012-11-04 06:37:38 AM
i295.photobucket.com

/Since when do wingnuts care about the environment?
 
2012-11-04 06:43:07 AM

liam76: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.


Here in WV, the cheapest test facility for that charges $230.

Not a lot, unless you don't have a lot to begin with.
 
2012-11-04 06:47:41 AM

MurphyMurphy: liam76: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.

You missed the point entirely.

If there was sound and impartial testing and science surrounding the practice we would have definitive answers to our questions about safety and impact.

I know it's possible for fluids and gasses in the earth to escape. But I can only guess as to whether that is occurring with fraking. In science we base our conclusions on solid and impartial data and observations. An assumption (hypothesis) is only the very first step.

We don't have this data. The focus here is obtaining it. Accurate testing... not whatever you managed to read into my comment.

If the method they are using can be done so that there is such an incredibly small chance of pollution, and then if we are able to quickly identify when that might happen, we have a pretty safe plan of attack and a kick ass energy source we badly need. If it isn't, we need to stop doing it immediately, or at least isolate the practice to areas where we know we aren't going to be royally farking someones water supply up.


Except the companies do not have to state what they are pumping into the ground as it is a proprietary formula(s).

The landowner is farked because, without that info, he/she can't bring a case to court and hope to be taken seriously.
 
2012-11-04 07:02:52 AM

a_room_with_a_moose: MurphyMurphy: liam76: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Haha,OK. So you are cool with people getting permission to pump toxic gasses into the ground under your house and you having the responsibility for making sure they don't make it into your house since it is private property.

You missed the point entirely.

If there was sound and impartial testing and science surrounding the practice we would have definitive answers to our questions about safety and impact.

I know it's possible for fluids and gasses in the earth to escape. But I can only guess as to whether that is occurring with fraking. In science we base our conclusions on solid and impartial data and observations. An assumption (hypothesis) is only the very first step.

We don't have this data. The focus here is obtaining it. Accurate testing... not whatever you managed to read into my comment.

If the method they are using can be done so that there is such an incredibly small chance of pollution, and then if we are able to quickly identify when that might happen, we have a pretty safe plan of attack and a kick ass energy source we badly need. If it isn't, we need to stop doing it immediately, or at least isolate the practice to areas where we know we aren't going to be royally farking someones water supply up.

Except the companies do not have to state what they are pumping into the ground as it is a proprietary formula(s).

The landowner is farked because, without that info, he/she can't bring a case to court and hope to be taken seriously.


Plus, as the people in the bag for oil companies have pointed out, you can't prove it is from the oil companies (even if you knew what was in the fracking fluids) unless you tested the wells before to prove it was new.

None of which is cheap or easy if you are poor.

Fracking shouldn't be allowed unless proactive steps are taken by the govt and or oil companies to test and prevent this crap.
 
2012-11-04 07:05:07 AM
Wait. Wait. Wait. Pumping poison into the ground can lead to poison being in the enviroment? The Hell you say!

Do any of the oil men who endorse fracking tolerate fracking anywhere near there homes?
 
2012-11-04 07:06:01 AM

chuggernaught: Wait. Wait. Wait. Pumping poison into the ground can lead to poison being in the enviroment? The Hell you say!

Do any of the oil men who endorse fracking tolerate fracking anywhere near their* homes?



FTFM

/it's early
 
2012-11-04 07:12:43 AM
Unpriced negative externalities say what?
 
2012-11-04 07:13:42 AM

chuggernaught: chuggernaught: Wait. Wait. Wait. Pumping poison into the ground can lead to poison being in the enviroment? The Hell you say!

Do any of the oil men who endorse fracking tolerate fracking anywhere near their* homes?

FTFM

/it's early


Meh, for all intensive purposes, its the same dam thing.
 
2012-11-04 07:16:29 AM
Regulation is soshalism!
 
2012-11-04 07:19:42 AM

cirby: "Toxicology tests on the plaintiffs found the presence of toluene, benzene and arsenic in their bodies, according to the complaint."

...and how much did they find in the drinking water around the site?

How much was naturally occurring?

What level of "contamination" was found? Parts per million? Billion? Trillion? 

The first rule of biased science writing: toss out a list of chemicals "found" somewhere, but not the amounts, and never tell anyone that they've been found in the water there since well before humans moved onto the continent...


So if I dig through fark history to the beginning of fracking I should find your posts arguing against all fracking until we get a solid baseline for the residents and water supply of any given, right?

/or will I see you on the 'let's try it and see?' bandwagon?
 
2012-11-04 07:37:57 AM

EnviroDude: If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.


You know why nobody asked your opinion?

Because at exactly no point in the past has anything you ever said suggested it's worth anything.
 
2012-11-04 07:39:17 AM

EnviroDude: Ed Finnerty: EnviroDude:

Now, if you dispute that arsenic is naturally occurring, or that a carbon filtration system would remove it and BTEX from drinking water, then you simply demonstrate to all that you would have done better not to reply to the post as it works wonderfully.

Or do you dispute that?


I'll dispute half of it. Carbon filtration will remove BTEX from drinking water, that much is correct. However, activated carbon, by itself, will not remove any significant amounts of arsenic from water. There have been some studies showing that iron-impregnated carbon will do so, but as far as I know, that is not an approved arsenic removal method and I doubt anyone is even selling any such filters. The activated carbon filters people buy at Home Depot will do next to nothing for people looking to remove arsenic from potable water.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-04 07:41:45 AM

EnviroDude: If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.


Except that they didn't know that they needed to do that since the contamination was covered up?

Besides, activated carbon often adds arsenic to water rather than removing it. Link 

But what they hell, people should be glad to sacrifice their health to help the job creators meet Wall Streets expectations, right?
 
2012-11-04 08:03:52 AM

starsrift: chuggernaught: chuggernaught: Wait. Wait. Wait. Pumping poison into the ground can lead to poison being in the enviroment? The Hell you say!

Do any of the oil men who endorse fracking tolerate fracking anywhere near their* homes?

FTFM

/it's early

Meh, for all intensive purposes, its the same dam thing.


i.chzbgr.com


/if you're going for the obvious pun, might as well go hole hog
 
2012-11-04 08:17:22 AM

More_Like_A_Stain: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x500]

/if you're going for the obvious pun, might as well go hole hog


Dam, mist that one.
 
2012-11-04 08:33:42 AM

starsrift: More_Like_A_Stain: [i.chzbgr.com image 500x500]

/if you're going for the obvious pun, might as well go hole hog

Dam, mist that one.


3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-04 08:34:24 AM

cirby: "Toxicology tests on the plaintiffs found the presence of toluene, benzene and arsenic in their bodies, according to the complaint."

...and how much did they find in the drinking water around the site?

How much was naturally occurring?

What level of "contamination" was found? Parts per million? Billion? Trillion? 

The first rule of biased science writing: toss out a list of chemicals "found" somewhere, but not the amounts, and never tell anyone that they've been found in the water there since well before humans moved onto the continent...


Right here, in the deposition by the DEP scientist.

It's a SCRIBD upload of the letter from the law office to Sec Krancer with ALL the juicy scientific details details and includes that scientists sworn under oath testimony

The real concern is the heavy metals that are in the water. Metals that are wholly associated and known to be associated with drilling activities.
Heavy Metals which the PA DEP has specifically chosen NOT to include in their public and private reports, in spite of the fact that the lab tested for them 

It is only biased to people who are too intellectually lazy and or stupidly gullible to do their own research

But hey, it's FARK, you're expected to live DOWN to our expectations...so, Have at it.
 
2012-11-04 08:58:52 AM

chuggernaught: Do any of the oil men who endorse fracking tolerate fracking anywhere near there homes?


No, but I do require people near my home to be able to distinguish "their" from "there".
 
2012-11-04 09:24:35 AM
Wait a second subby,

Are you telling me that the PA Commonwealth Government is bought and paid for by the oil and gas lobby?

Someone grab me my fainting chair.
 
2012-11-04 09:25:13 AM
So, there is a post that lists all the metals, and the exact amounts. I wonder how the conservitives are going to move the goalposts? A little hint: If you are going to repeal the healthcare act, it's probably not a good idea to threaten our health with greed.
 
2012-11-04 09:25:48 AM
If you have a well why wouldnt you be testing it every year for your own safety?

Why wait till you get sick to see if that horse farm uphill has been leaching coliform into your well.....or e coli from your own sand mound?

Supposedly even that faucet being lit on fire in gasland was a hoax.....the reason they started drilling in that area was because there was so much gas you could set your faucet on fire....
 
2012-11-04 09:26:43 AM

Girl From The North Country: I think the best course of action is to remove as many regulations from business as possible because the free market will ensure they do the right thing.


I wish there was a Sad but True tag, or even just a Sad tag.
 
2012-11-04 09:28:04 AM
I meant that as right wingers and free marketers will probably make this argument, not as we should actually trust businesses to do the right thing.

/need more coffee
 
2012-11-04 09:29:44 AM
Why can't they test the well water *before* they drill, so they have a baseline for comparison? Or did I miss that part in the story?
 
2012-11-04 09:32:05 AM

moothemagiccow: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

It's called a tap, Alistair


I'm sorry, we call them mysterious water tubes around here.
 
2012-11-04 09:35:43 AM

Mrtraveler01: Wait a second subby,

Are you telling me that the PA Commonwealth Government is bought and paid for by the oil and gas lobby?

Someone grab me my fainting chair.


You ever notice that all these complex conspiracies against the people of the us involve hundreds of people who are able to keep their lips sealed about an ongoing conspiracy and it only happens when the dumb republican party that cant tie thier own shoe laces are in power?

Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...

I wish i drew the look the other way republicans instead of the libby mcenviroweenie when they inspect my dams for seepage after a 3 day rainstorm

/its rainwater saturating the ground... Come back when its been sunshine for 3 days
 
2012-11-04 09:35:59 AM

doglover: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

Actually in Pittsburgh they're called "spickets"


"Spickets" sounds racist. Call them "wet-taps."
 
2012-11-04 09:42:02 AM

Giltric: Mrtraveler01: Wait a second subby,

Are you telling me that the PA Commonwealth Government is bought and paid for by the oil and gas lobby?

Someone grab me my fainting chair.

You ever notice that all these complex conspiracies against the people of the us involve hundreds of people who are able to keep their lips sealed about an ongoing conspiracy and it only happens when the dumb republican party that cant tie thier own shoe laces are in power?

Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...

I wish i drew the look the other way republicans instead of the libby mcenviroweenie when they inspect my dams for seepage after a 3 day rainstorm

/its rainwater saturating the ground... Come back when its been sunshine for 3 days


I was exaggerating.

But the fact is that PA does very little to regulate this and local governments as well because the oil and gas lobby balk and make a living hell any time a local/state government even suggests that fracking be regulated a little more.

But it's not like PA would do anything anyways, Corbett is a kiss-ass for the oil and gas lobby as it is.
 
2012-11-04 09:44:00 AM

doglover: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: EnviroDude: spigot

In America, which is where this site is, we call them faucets.

Actually in Pittsburgh they're called "spickets"


Yinz goin' dahntahn to watch the Stillers play?

(Yes I know they're in NY today)
 
2012-11-04 09:47:34 AM

Giltric: Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...


Or maybe nobody said it's a conspiracy and merely pointed out that it's painfully obvious and the voters of PA just don't give a shiat. More than $1.2m in donations from Oil & Gas interests to the governor alone during his election campaign in 2010, many from out of state. oil & gas was his fourth biggest donor category and second biggest industry donor.

There's no conspiracy. There's no secret. It's perfectly out in the open. The PA government takes a huge amount of money from oil & gas interests and oil & gas operators get huge friendly perks from the PA state government. The people of Pennsylvania could have known all of it if they wanted. Clearly they didn't care. Now they can wallow and die in their own ignorance.
 
2012-11-04 09:58:57 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Giltric: Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...

Or maybe nobody said it's a conspiracy and merely pointed out that it's painfully obvious and the voters of PA just don't give a shiat. More than $1.2m in donations from Oil & Gas interests to the governor alone during his election campaign in 2010, many from out of state. oil & gas was his fourth biggest donor category and second biggest industry donor.

There's no conspiracy. There's no secret. It's perfectly out in the open. The PA government takes a huge amount of money from oil & gas interests and oil & gas operators get huge friendly perks from the PA state government. The people of Pennsylvania could have known all of it if they wanted. Clearly they didn't care. Now they can wallow and die in their own ignorance.


So how does the govenor (one person) get everyone who didnt recieve all that money from the oil and gas industry to look the other way? Whats in it for them? Would you abandon your principles or fall in lockstep with Corbett for free?

Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?
 
2012-11-04 10:03:51 AM

Giltric: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Giltric: Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...

Or maybe nobody said it's a conspiracy and merely pointed out that it's painfully obvious and the voters of PA just don't give a shiat. More than $1.2m in donations from Oil & Gas interests to the governor alone during his election campaign in 2010, many from out of state. oil & gas was his fourth biggest donor category and second biggest industry donor.

There's no conspiracy. There's no secret. It's perfectly out in the open. The PA government takes a huge amount of money from oil & gas interests and oil & gas operators get huge friendly perks from the PA state government. The people of Pennsylvania could have known all of it if they wanted. Clearly they didn't care. Now they can wallow and die in their own ignorance.

So how does the govenor (one person) get everyone who didnt recieve all that money from the oil and gas industry to look the other way? Whats in it for them? Would you abandon your principles or fall in lockstep with Corbett for free?

Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?


Because any time the Commonwealth or any local government tries to regulate the practice in some way, the oil and gas lobby does it's best to thwart it in any way possible. Regardless of whether it's the Commonwealth or some local township government.

NPR had a great piece on this before.
 
2012-11-04 10:06:25 AM
Having been to PA recently, many Pennsylvanians could use a good dose of benzene and arsenic.
 
2012-11-04 10:11:01 AM

Giltric: libby mcenviroweenie


Ya, no bias from you.

I'll give you a hint about why big energy is allowed to get away with what they get away with. It is one part being able to take nationwide money and toss it in a laser focus at any level of the government working to regulate them, and its a second part people who say and believe stupid bullshiat like that phrase there.

So ya, there is no conspiracy. There is just a nation that is partially corrupt, plenty greedy, and has just enough idiots that seem to enjoy the wool being pulled over their eyes.

And this is coming from someone who isn't convinced fracking is all that bad (all energy sources have significant downsides, and those from fracking may well be better than those from coal - something natural gas could take over for in many ways).

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?


Oh look, a disingenuous deflection. What a surprise.
 
2012-11-04 10:19:41 AM

Smackledorfer: Giltric: libby mcenviroweenie

Ya, no bias from you.

I'll give you a hint about why big energy is allowed to get away with what they get away with. It is one part being able to take nationwide money and toss it in a laser focus at any level of the government working to regulate them, and its a second part people who say and believe stupid bullshiat like that phrase there.

So ya, there is no conspiracy. There is just a nation that is partially corrupt, plenty greedy, and has just enough idiots that seem to enjoy the wool being pulled over their eyes.

And this is coming from someone who isn't convinced fracking is all that bad (all energy sources have significant downsides, and those from fracking may well be better than those from coal - something natural gas could take over for in many ways).

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?

Oh look, a disingenuous deflection. What a surprise.


So it is different...... Thanks

Bsabsvd
 
2012-11-04 10:29:52 AM

Giltric: Smackledorfer: Giltric: libby mcenviroweenie

Ya, no bias from you.

I'll give you a hint about why big energy is allowed to get away with what they get away with. It is one part being able to take nationwide money and toss it in a laser focus at any level of the government working to regulate them, and its a second part people who say and believe stupid bullshiat like that phrase there.

So ya, there is no conspiracy. There is just a nation that is partially corrupt, plenty greedy, and has just enough idiots that seem to enjoy the wool being pulled over their eyes.

And this is coming from someone who isn't convinced fracking is all that bad (all energy sources have significant downsides, and those from fracking may well be better than those from coal - something natural gas could take over for in many ways).

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?

Oh look, a disingenuous deflection. What a surprise.

So it is different...... Thanks

Bsabsvd


Dude, you've earned the scorn you get in this thread.

The PA DEP tested this water and EXPLICITLY chose not to release the full results of that test, contrary to PA Law..

All you concern trolling and deflectionary responses do is show what a colossal douchebag you are.
 
2012-11-04 10:47:29 AM
But benzene is organic!

(I've always been irked by the misappropriation of the word "organic" with reference to food given that all petrochemicals are organic by definition).
 
2012-11-04 11:00:25 AM

washburn777: Natural Gas has the potential to change american energy, and thus we are at a crossroads. Will we slow down this race to frack just long enough to ensure these industry practices that will soon become standard are safe and optimally effective? Or will we rush in guns blazing and just cross our fingers, hoping no innocent families suffer cancer or children born with birth defects due to our all-consuming thirst for profit.


Not to mention Natural Gas prices are pretty damn low. In Alberta, we're shutting in, and storing it underground, waiting for prices to go up. Oh, and sending it to China, where the price is higher.
 
2012-11-04 11:07:17 AM

EnviroDude: If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.


It's unlikely that the contamination is connected to fracking per se. Drinking water and oil sands are generally entirely separate geological strata iirc.

Connected to poor containment procedure of the fracking materials at the surface, i.e. the same kinds of release that you can get if you fark up any chemical procedure? Somewhat more likely. Lack of mixing during the actual procedure doesn't mean that you can fix stupid in related parts of the procedure.

ruta: But benzene is organic!

(I've always been irked by the misappropriation of the word "organic" with reference to food given that all petrochemicals are organic by definition).


Benzene's organic in both senses, typically. It's not usually made synthetically, just purified out of stuff you can pick up off the (well, under the) ground in nature. Hell, it's more organic in the agricultural sense than organic crops, because you don't have the highly unnatural step of growing it in a concentrated field to keep pests away to make it, it's produced by pressure entirely without human interference.

Basically, we should start sticking the "certified FDA Organic" sticker on bottles of benzene and pressure tanks of methane.

//You _can_ make it synthetically, of course, though that's more expensive than just distilling it from crude.
 
2012-11-04 11:13:23 AM

Hebalo: washburn777: Natural Gas has the potential to change american energy, and thus we are at a crossroads. Will we slow down this race to frack just long enough to ensure these industry practices that will soon become standard are safe and optimally effective? Or will we rush in guns blazing and just cross our fingers, hoping no innocent families suffer cancer or children born with birth defects due to our all-consuming thirst for profit.

Not to mention Natural Gas prices are pretty damn low. In Alberta, we're shutting in, and storing it underground, waiting for prices to go up. Oh, and sending it to China, where the price is higher.


And there in, lies the rub.

Even when it's done right,unconventional natural gas development has significant local environmental impact.

Acres and acres of forest, wetlands and farmland are consumed by the wellpads, service roads, pipelines and various storage facilities the industry uses.
If you happen to own a home near this development, you are guaranteed a loss in property value and an increase in insurance costs.
The vast majority of earnings from local development, royalties, salaries and materials, are exported to absentee mineral rights owners, out of state drilling and fracking crews and even some foreign manufacturing of steel casings and machinery.

As well, there is ample evidence of water contamination from this development. You can't drill through an aquifer without putting that aquifer at risk.

And every single one of these companies developing unconventional shale gas wells is begging to be allowed to sell their product overseas.

This was sold to the people pf PA as the bridge fuel that would carry us past oil and gasoline and into renewables.

Now we know that was a lie. Gas storage facilities are full. Wells are flaring across the state, burning off methane and waste, and overseas sale is their next move.

Tell me again why we had to rush this in and develop it willy nilly under a national energy security claim, when all they plan to do is sell it on international markets?
 
2012-11-04 11:16:17 AM

X-boxershorts: Now we know that was a lie. Gas storage facilities are full. Wells are flaring across the state, burning off methane and waste, and overseas sale is their next move.

Tell me again why we had to rush this in and develop it willy nilly under a national energy security claim, when all they plan to do is sell it on international markets?


Because Socialism (and being "job-friendly")
 
2012-11-04 11:20:03 AM

liam76: Fracking can be done safely, but it won't be in the us.


Pretty much, this.
 
2012-11-04 11:20:36 AM

Mrtraveler01: X-boxershorts: Now we know that was a lie. Gas storage facilities are full. Wells are flaring across the state, burning off methane and waste, and overseas sale is their next move.

Tell me again why we had to rush this in and develop it willy nilly under a national energy security claim, when all they plan to do is sell it on international markets?

Because Socialism (and being "job-friendly")


Here in PA, the only jobs you can get are the menial ones, Well Tender, truck driver. The pay is nominal and the hours suck.
But if you have a business, say, a restaurant or a general store or a small motel/trailer park, you made some money off this.

The president's 2 jobs bills that congress refused to hear were more job friendly than this crap.
 
2012-11-04 11:22:34 AM
I wouldn't care if this were Texas or Alabama, but there are reasonably intelligent people living in Pennsylvania. This is really unfortunate. Repeated exposure to benzene causes pancytopenia and can result in leukemia. Arsenic is linked to cancer of the bladder, lungs, skin, kidney, nasal passages, liver, and prostate.
 
2012-11-04 11:23:09 AM

Giltric: Smackledorfer: Giltric: libby mcenviroweenie

Ya, no bias from you.

I'll give you a hint about why big energy is allowed to get away with what they get away with. It is one part being able to take nationwide money and toss it in a laser focus at any level of the government working to regulate them, and its a second part people who say and believe stupid bullshiat like that phrase there.

So ya, there is no conspiracy. There is just a nation that is partially corrupt, plenty greedy, and has just enough idiots that seem to enjoy the wool being pulled over their eyes.

And this is coming from someone who isn't convinced fracking is all that bad (all energy sources have significant downsides, and those from fracking may well be better than those from coal - something natural gas could take over for in many ways).

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?

Oh look, a disingenuous deflection. What a surprise.

So it is different...... Thanks

Bsabsvd


Thats all youve got then. sad.
 
2012-11-04 11:34:34 AM
I know I'm going to catch hell for this but I am an EH&S professional for a large Nat Gas operator in the Marcellus (they also operate across the company)

The PADEP requires all home/water wells be tested at the cost of the company with 2000 ft of the vertical well bore before any drill bit touches the earth.

Some companies test further out to be safe.

The aquifers and mercellus zones are separated by THOUSANDS o feet of rock.

PA was the birthplace of the oil industry in the United States and has had continuous, albeit small, oil and gas presence ever since. There are shallow gas zones (some as Low as 500 feet) all over the state. Shallow gas pockets will find the path of least resistance to the surface. Also, what do you think makes coal burn? Methane evolves off of coal seams and can leach into the ground/water with no human interaction.

The geological makeup of PA is unique. To get an idea of how complex the fracture structure is take a pane of glass, spider web it and repeat that several hundred million times on top of each other.

Speaking to landowners a majority of whom have no interest or leases you find out the history of the areas and routinely hear that they could see methane vents in springs and they're water wells well before the industry as a whole showed up.

Someone asked who would pay for the carbon filtration systems, that would be the leasing company. In PA if there is a registered complaint and the DEP finds methane where it shouldn't be the leasing gas company is legally required to do whatever the DEP states, at a cost to the company, and provide drinking water (bottled or filtration system) at their cost until the water returns to normal. At which point the homeowner gets to keep the system for piece of mind.

And for an article stating the DEP has no authority or is in the industry's back pocket, I'd like to disagree given how much they talk to us and can shut down jobs if their not completely satisfied with (which I am perfectly fine with, I've personally kicked off contractors for failing to heed my companies requirements for environmental protection).

As for the makeup of frac fluids: most major players in the Marcellus use fracfocus.org to disclose fluid compositions to the public. Additionally, fluid compositions are disclosed to regulating bodies.

Lastly, you want this low gas price environment and high regulation to continue. This pushes out the mom and pop shops (who are more apt to cut corners and can't afford to meet the basic requirements of environmental protection) and leaves the companies well versed in this environment to develop the needed infrastructure and best practices to do this safely and effectively.

/dons flame retardant suit
//here we go.
 
2012-11-04 11:41:15 AM

Urbn: I meant that as right wingers and free marketers will probably make this argument, not as we should actually trust businesses to do the right thing.

/need more coffee


I meant that too.
 
2012-11-04 11:43:10 AM
Glad to hear things are going so well with the fracking there! Down here in NC ol' Bev Perdue, our governor, recently went on a trip to find out more about fracking. She came back claiming it to be the best thing since sliced bread, and then our state government rushed through legislation allowing fracking here. They claimed it had to be done RIGHT MEOW! and that "We're running out of time!".

Nobody's exactly sure why it had to be done right now or how we're running out of time. My best guess is those in various positions in state government might not be there in a few years to receive those awesome kickbacks for pushing this through. The whole time Perdue was being wined and dined out of state, the News & Observer was running scary stories about all the bad things that could be related to fracking.

Confirmation bias be damned, everybody around here either doesn't want it at all, or those who would be okay with it at least want to wait and come up with some strong regulations and oversight. But no, we have to pass this right now (which it did), and we'll add in the regulations later when more information is available.

Yay! North Carolina state government. The finest representation money can buy.
 
2012-11-04 11:52:19 AM
OK, Dougie, the only thing I have to ask: Will you drink a glass of water from the tap of a well within the 2000ft mark of one of your operations? How about your kids? Wife? Other loved ones? I am guessing, if you can do this in a reliable or provable way, the questions would probably come down quite a bit.
 
2012-11-04 11:58:16 AM

Dougie AXP: I know I'm going to catch hell for this but I am an EH&S professional for a large Nat Gas operator in the Marcellus (they also operate across the company)

The PADEP requires all home/water wells be tested at the cost of the company with 2000 ft of the vertical well bore before any drill bit touches the earth.

Some companies test further out to be safe.

The aquifers and mercellus zones are separated by THOUSANDS o feet of rock.

PA was the birthplace of the oil industry in the United States and has had continuous, albeit small, oil and gas presence ever since. There are shallow gas zones (some as Low as 500 feet) all over the state. Shallow gas pockets will find the path of least resistance to the surface. Also, what do you think makes coal burn? Methane evolves off of coal seams and can leach into the ground/water with no human interaction.

The geological makeup of PA is unique. To get an idea of how complex the fracture structure is take a pane of glass, spider web it and repeat that several hundred million times on top of each other.

Speaking to landowners a majority of whom have no interest or leases you find out the history of the areas and routinely hear that they could see methane vents in springs and they're water wells well before the industry as a whole showed up.

Someone asked who would pay for the carbon filtration systems, that would be the leasing company. In PA if there is a registered complaint and the DEP finds methane where it shouldn't be the leasing gas company is legally required to do whatever the DEP states, at a cost to the company, and provide drinking water (bottled or filtration system) at their cost until the water returns to normal. At which point the homeowner gets to keep the system for piece of mind.

And for an article stating the DEP has no authority or is in the industry's back pocket, I'd like to disagree given how much they talk to us and can shut down jobs if their not completely satisfied with (which I am perfectly fine with, I've personally kicked off contractors for failing to heed my companies requirements for environmental protection).

As for the makeup of frac fluids: most major players in the Marcellus use fracfocus.org to disclose fluid compositions to the public. Additionally, fluid compositions are disclosed to regulating bodies.

Lastly, you want this low gas price environment and high regulation to continue. This pushes out the mom and pop shops (who are more apt to cut corners and can't afford to meet the basic requirements of environmental protection) and leaves the companies well versed in this environment to develop the needed infrastructure and best practices to do this safely and effectively.

/dons flame retardant suit
//here we go.



That hole in the planet will be there for the life of the planet. What's the long term maintenance plan?

Also, this...PA has between 180,000 and 350,000 orphaned and abandoned wells of all ages and all types.
Each orphaned and abandoned well a potential conduit between the frack zone and the surface.

How many more houses need to blow up when new development creates additional methane migration?
www.cardcreek.com
This one is in McKean County, just outside Bradford, PA.

You say PA is well regulated and on paper you are right. But PA has layed off over half their DEP field staff.
Regulations are worthless without staff to enforce them. Basically, you're expected to self regulate by filling out forms, reports and documentation and submitting them.
Every once in a while you get a visit and a check mark on the appearance of the well pad. But this is smoke and mirrors...

State Game lands 59, Fisk Hollow, PA. On a single well pad, truckers we are friendly with reported a major leak. Nothing in the news.
We went up to investigate and there was a huge wet spot on the well pad and a bunch of straw all over..and a T-shirt or a towel wrapped around the well at the surface.

Reported this to the DEP, they went up and investigated, 2 weeks later....Nothing wrong, they said.

Another truck driver reported another leak. Another DEP investigation at Fisk Hollow....nothing in the news.

We had to drive to Harrisburg and in person request the DEP investigation report for FISK Hollow...and here's the summary:
3 wells were drilled on one pad.
The drilling contractor used a drilling mud compound that included the biocide ANHIB2 but was missing additional Ph balancers that would reduce the acidity of the fluids in the well bore.
Hydrochloric acid formed during drilling and it ate through the casing. on all 3 wells. Resulting in the spill of thousands of gallons of drilling mud and well cuttings.

PA DEP had no intention of releasing this information.

AND TAHT..my good man, is the most serious argument against the state of PA and how they're managing this. Negative news, even if fact based and of relevance to PA Citizen's health, is intentionally buried under near impenetrable layers of bureaucratic rock.

Also this:
Methane migrating into water wells HAS been a major issue for PA for ever. Water well construction has been very lightly regulated throughout PA's history....
So, knowing this was an issue, and knowing the Marcellus rush was coming, why then would the state encourage a major rush without taking steps to help it's private water well owners fix a known issue?

I'm not flaming you. And as a member of the industry I'm not even blaming you.

But I got no problem telling you that PA is being negligently reckless in how the state is managing this.

PA's been drilled more times than a 5 dollar crack whore....and yeah, all kinds of nasty things are leaking out now.
 
2012-11-04 12:06:23 PM
Here's a photo of a DEP regulated waste hauler dumping his load in a creek in PA that feeds directly into the Allegheny River:

www.cardcreek.com


he's not pumping...he's dumping:

www.cardcreek.com

This too, was reported to the DEP....

(crickets)
 
2012-11-04 12:13:07 PM

MurphyMurphy: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Nothing partisan about expecting responsibility from all parties.

I think there is room for responsibility to be shared. I think it should be the land owners responsibility to have the tests done before/during/after ...also in my little ideal world, the government would insist and verify that it happened to a more than satisfactory level of quality and impartiality.

Sounds easy... but we sure screwed it up here.


Why should the property owner have any responsibility? Why should a private property owner have to take on the cost of testing because big oil wants to make millions by fraking near his land?

It should be a cost of the fraking business period. You want a permit to frak you need to do a proper environmental impact study that includes testing all wells in the area prior to fraking. Don't wanna do that tough shiat. You want to make millions fraking its your farking responsibility to ensure you do not harm nearby property owners that are getting nothing from the fraking operation.
 
2012-11-04 12:15:49 PM

Giltric: So how does the govenor (one person) get everyone who didnt recieve all that money from the oil and gas industry to look the other way?


WHO IS LOOKING THE OTHER WAY?

This isn't a freaking conspiracy no matter how many times you try to construct that strawman. The PA republicans, currently in control, are transparently pro-industry and they pass sweetheart deals for the oil and gas industries while taking huge donations from them. None of this is some giant shadowy secret. It's all out in the open and obvious. Apparently PA voters just don't seem to give a shiat about it.

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?


Where in TFA does any of that appear? Is that what we're talking about, or are we talking about fracking in PA?

Knock it off with the farking strawmen you dishonest prick.
 
2012-11-04 12:19:20 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Giltric: So how does the govenor (one person) get everyone who didnt recieve all that money from the oil and gas industry to look the other way?

WHO IS LOOKING THE OTHER WAY?

This isn't a freaking conspiracy no matter how many times you try to construct that strawman. The PA republicans, currently in control, are transparently pro-industry and they pass sweetheart deals for the oil and gas industries while taking huge donations from them. None of this is some giant shadowy secret. It's all out in the open and obvious. Apparently PA voters just don't seem to give a shiat about it.

Giltric: Has obama not reformed wall street due to all that wall street campaign funding.... Or is that different?

Where in TFA does any of that appear? Is that what we're talking about, or are we talking about fracking in PA?

Knock it off with the farking strawmen you dishonest prick.


A foreign owned company, Royal Dutch Shell, just got a 1.2 BILLION dollar tax break to build a gas cracking facility north of Pittsburgh.
 
2012-11-04 12:21:35 PM

SilentStrider: welp. looks like bottled water time.


How bad does it have to get before it's "up against the wall" time?

/Just curious
 
2012-11-04 01:07:07 PM

Took me a minute to find this again, but this is a paper about groundwater--conveniently, I found the one for Pennsylvania. The Geology of Pennsylvania's Groundwater

It doesn't address fracking, since it was written in 1999. So I expect it's pretty unbiased about how it talks about the geology and state of the groundwater in PA. Most of the fracking is done in areas categorized as having "sandstone, shale, or coal" sediments. Well, duh, since it's called shale fracking. The report is full of charts and graphs and stuff and pretty easy reading, if you'd like to wade through it and find out about groundwater, particularly in PA.

Poor water quality is not always the result of degradation from human
activities. Depending on what minerals are dissolved from the rocks and
sediments, natural groundwater quality may be unacceptable in some
areas. Probably the most common problem is hardness, which results
from high concentrations of calcium. High amounts of dissolved solids,
iron, and hydrogen sulfide (which has a rotten-egg odor) are examples
of other water-quality problems that occur naturally.

The quantity of dissolved solids in groundwater is lowest in northcentral
Pennsylvania. Because of the rugged landscape, little groundwater
penetrates to deep levels in that area, resulting in a short residence time.
The main rock types are sandstone and shale, which are made of rela-
tively insoluble minerals. Other areas of Pennsylvania have more rock that
is soluble and/or more of the groundwater penetrates to deeper levels,
increasing residence time.

Activities of humans can cause changes to the chemistry
of groundwater in a variety of ways. .... Nitrates and
bacteria from sewage, as well as household chemicals that are dumped
into septic systems, can contaminate groundwater. This is probably more
of a problem in Pennsylvania than elsewhere in the United States because
Mineralization of Water and Water.


I don't find any mentions of naturally-occurring benzene or arsenic in PA groundwater, but they do mention iron, nitrates, salt water, and acid mine drainage--which can have arsenic in it. We have arsenic in some of our groundwater around here, but it is usually related to old mining.

Does groundwater flow
through all rocks?


Groundwater flows through almost all
rocks and sediments below the water table.
Because some are less permeable than others,
water flows through different rocks and sediments
at different speeds.


I imagine it flows a little faster through "almost all rocks" after you put some explosive charges under the ground, blow up those rocks, and then put a bunch of chemicals into the ground that are specifically designed to make those rocks more permeable. And this is not even counting the "flowback fluid"--the water that is kept in waste ponds on the surface and treated to make it "safe" again. From another source:

Though this is modified during and after well stimulation by chemical interactions among the constituents of the fracture fluid itself and among the fracture fluid and the chemicals present in the target formation, flowback fluid will contain many of the same compounds found in the fracture fluid that was pumped down the well. These include acid, gels, cross-linkers, breakers, friction reducers, surfactants, corrosion inhibitors, boosters, biocides, clay stabilizers, and pH adjusters.

Formation Water (the fracking fluid) contains

Heavy Metals
(Like lead, arsenic, and chromium)
Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials
(Like radium, uranium, and strontium)
Volatile Organic Compounds
(Like benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene)
 
Oh well, I'll keep reading some more. It all sounds perfectly *choke, gag, retch* safe.
 
2012-11-04 01:27:19 PM

X-boxershorts: A foreign owned company, Royal Dutch Shell, just got a 1.2 BILLION dollar tax break to build a gas cracking facility north of Pittsburgh.


Yup. And, again, PA residents don't seem to mind.

I lived in PA in 2010. All of this was obvious back then. Nobody really cared. Apparently, voters in PA have little or no problem with a governor and legislators who take a ton of donations from special interests and then hand out sweetheart deals to the same groups giving them donations while demanding almost nothing in return for the benefit of the state's citizens for the privilege of exploiting the states natural resources.

None of it appears to be illegal, just a matter to be left up to voters. And they decided it was fine because they elected a rabidly anti-education, pro-business governor who is doing in his term exactly what he promised he'd do when he ran.

So, whatever. Representative government doesn't mean good government. Especially not if the people being represented are complete fools with no sense of self-interest. 

The people of Pennsylvania are getting exactly what they asked for what they deserve. The only really aggravating thing is that once the gas is gone or too costly to extract or, as is already starting to happen, gas just becomes too cheap to be very profitable, these same fools who supported this bullshiat agenda in the first place will cry and scream to the federal government for help as the jobs dry up and they're left back in poverty with nothing to show for the ecological damage and strain on the infrastructure. Damaged roads, no jobs and generations of kids with weird cancers and they'll blame everyone but themselves just like Texans did after their boom and bust cycle.
 
2012-11-04 01:31:41 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Yup. And, again, PA residents don't seem to mind.


Lots do...we get shouted down by the God and Guns brigade.
 
2012-11-04 01:38:29 PM

X-boxershorts: Lots do...we get shouted down by the God and Guns brigade.


Yea. The same desperately poor, completely uneducated people right up the center of the state who wouldn't be able to afford the increased cancer rates they're doomed to if it weren't for the debil's Obamacare that they're so vociferously opposed to...

The fact that the republicans have managed to make such a successful business of getting so many millions to so obviously vote against their own obvious best interests is incredible to me.

/ but it's not fair to call them stupid or anything, even though almost everything they do is stupid...
 
2012-11-04 01:57:26 PM

EnviroDude: If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.


How about "the easiest way to handle this is not to put BTEX (not naturally occurring) in the drinking water in the first place"?
Let's try that first, mmkay?
 
2012-11-04 02:01:38 PM

rewind2846: How about "the easiest way to handle this is not to put BTEX (not naturally occurring) in the drinking water in the first place"?
Let's try that first, mmkay?


You have to accept that nothing is going to be optimal all the time. Doing the fracking isn't necessarily a problem, what's a problem is that the people doing the oversight have a huge financial incentive to do it poorly or not at all.

There's no reason this can't be done safely, but it can't be done safely when the people in charge of monitoring it are getting millions from the people they're supposed to be watching.
 
2012-11-04 02:35:56 PM
So who is going to sell the "carbon filtration systems" and who is going to buy them? I bet the company that is doing the Fracking has a subsidiary that is only too happy to sell you however many "carbon filtration systems" that you may need. but unfortunately that model doesnt remove PCB's.( We dont know how THOSE got in there) But another one their associates has a system they would be willing to lease to you for a low, low monthly fee.

If we dont Rape and Pillage the Land exploit these natural resources someone else will!

Lets keep America Free!

Besides R&D is HARD and Expensive. We have nearly 100 years of "Fossil" fuels left. We'll all be dead before we have to worry about that!
 
2012-11-04 02:50:44 PM
comon' america, lets get frackin'!!


don't listen to those crazy environmentalist folks. any water that will light on fire when you hold a match to it is good water!

and good water is good for america!
 
2012-11-04 02:51:18 PM
Everyone, I apologize for the delay in responding. I'm traveling back from visiting my mom. Her house was hit by sandy. I should be back to my house and I will answer those questions directed at me to the best of my knowledge.

I should be back by 4 pm est.
 
2012-11-04 03:31:09 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: X-boxershorts: Lots do...we get shouted down by the God and Guns brigade.

Yea. The same desperately poor, completely uneducated people right up the center of the state who wouldn't be able to afford the increased cancer rates they're doomed to if it weren't for the debil's Obamacare that they're so vociferously opposed to...

The fact that the republicans have managed to make such a successful business of getting so many millions to so obviously vote against their own obvious best interests is incredible to me.

/ but it's not fair to call them stupid or anything, even though almost everything they do is stupid...


They call it Pennsyltucky for a reason
 
2012-11-04 03:51:43 PM

lj1330: OK, Dougie, the only thing I have to ask: Will you drink a glass of water from the tap of a well within the 2000ft mark of one of your operations? How about your kids? Wife? Other loved ones? I am guessing, if you can do this in a reliable or provable way, the questions would probably come down quite a bit.


ljon1330,

I do drink the water within 2000 ft of our operations. Quite routinely, in fact. I forgot to mention that in addition to pre-drill records we are also required to do post drill testing of those same points.

Part of my responsibility is to meet with landowners when they have concerns/complaints and we most often meet them in their homes and to date, I have never turned down a drink of water/coffee/tea when offered.

However, as I do not have a wife and kids, I cannot tell you I would let them drink the water because it's purely hypothetical. However, I do not stop my mom from drinking the water when she comes up to visit.

I honestly, don't know how I could reliably prove it to you over the internet. If I suddenly, stop posting some day, I guess that would be your answer?
 
2012-11-04 03:57:23 PM

X-boxershorts: They call it Pennsyltucky for a reason


Yea, and I moved out for a reason.

/ although apparently I was brain damaged by whatever was in the water because I moved south...
 
2012-11-04 04:13:59 PM
X-boxershorts

You bring up some great points, and I recognize that you are not flaming me but bringing issues to the attention of authorities as a concerned citizen looking to keep business honest.

Now, please allow me to state that I do not disagree with you about the current workforce of the DEP. They are severely underfunded and need more regulators well versed in the oil and gas industry. I believe that supposed to be helped by the impact fees and higher permit fees generated by 2012 Act 13. However, I cannot be sure. I am one of the few, as a native Pennsylvanian and O&G industry person actually advocating for excise taxes. Excise taxes could help fund the DEP and keep up their orphaned and abandoned well program.

Unfortunately those wells were abandoned by previous operators who were independent and small wildcatters. Who were less then fastidious in their record keeping. At present, when a previously unknown/abandoned/orphaned well is discovered by us, we're obligated to GPS it, report it to the DEP and help them plug it before we can continue with our operations. Now in the specific area I work, we have yet to come across any but I know that they have in the other parts of the state.

So I plead to you to continue to hold the DEP and the industry accountable. It's the only way to affect change. I do my part on my side.

I checked and the area of PA you call out specifically we do not operate in so I can't comment on that operators specific operating procedures but I can tell you that any contractor that did that in my field would be summarily dismissed and their contract fought to withold all payments. There is no reason for that kind of carelessness aside from penny pinching contractors (who shouldn't be doing this kind of work in the first place) or shody operators for hiring them in the first place.

I can tell you that the mid-majors and major operators do share contractor performance information and we routinely blackball contractors who act in wreckless manners. Those pictures you posted are not the operators themselves but contractors. Very few companies own their own trucking lines anymore. Additionally that contractor was/is probably being investigated by the Dept. of Justice/FBI and state agencies. Trust me, the operator will be held partially reliable for their contractors conduct. Someone will and should go to jail over that.

As for long term maintenance, our lease operators check on a daily basis the well pressure, and casing pressures. When anything happens out of the ordinary we shut in the well and consult with our engineering department to diagnose and prepare repair plans before they get worse. However, since we are large enough we can weather low price environments while still performing this kind of maintenance, some of the smaller mid size companies and mom and pop shops can't and that's when you get problems.

I can tell you that we have drilled a few dry holes here and what we do in that event is this: pump the well full of cement, GPS the vertical well bore location, reclaim the property (restoring it to its "as found" condition) and let our permits expire. Now since I'm not in charge of permits and contracts I can't tell you with 100% confidence but I believe that there is an obligation to the operator to take care of any issues that arise on the property unless the property is repurposed for something else (i.e. another business comes in and develops the land for another reason).

Again, thank you for a non-yelling counter point discussion. It's always appreciated.
 
2012-11-04 04:39:42 PM

Dougie AXP: we routinely blackball contractors who act in wreckless manners.


i943.photobucket.com

/You *want* to be a wreckless driver
 
2012-11-04 04:48:22 PM
Dude, don't you see our problem? By your own admission, you are surrounded by contrators who act with greed, and cut corners. I am not worried about you (if you could prove it within the limits of the internet), but you are surrounded by scumbags! How can we trust an industry that is powered by pure profit!
 
2012-11-04 05:02:58 PM

lj1330: Dude, don't you see our problem? By your own admission, you are surrounded by contrators who act with greed, and cut corners. I am not worried about you (if you could prove it within the limits of the internet), but you are surrounded by scumbags! How can we trust an industry that is powered by pure profit!


By holding them accountable we cut out the ones who act in those manners what you are left with are the ones who do it the right way and get repeat business so what they lose in profit per job they make up in repeat business and volume increase when that info is shared with other operators.

This is what to leads to the impression that getting into the business is "impossible". It's not impossible. You just have to pass the requirements and hold yourself as accountable as we do or higher if you want to continue to work for the industry/
 
2012-11-04 05:26:49 PM

Dougie AXP: Unfortunately those wells were abandoned by previous operators who were independent and small wildcatters. Who were less then fastidious in their record keeping.


This is not accurate.

DEP began their records keeping functions as a factor of the 1984 oil and gas act. One major flaw of that act was that...they never reconciled their records with the old local records and the old geological survey maps were most of these records existed.

And the former oil and gas act of 1984 had a 2000 dollar restoration bond attached to it, which only applied to new wells drilled after Jan 1 1985.
And that bond never ever came close to the cost of properly plugging an abandoned well.

They updated that with the 2011 ACT13, now the bond averages about 6000 per unconventional well.

3 wells in Dimock, PA that DEP felt were responsible for the fouling is the water in Dimcok, all of them vertical marcellus wells, cost 700,000 each to plug.

The economics of well recovery bonding says this...

Drill a well, run it til it slows, sell it off to a small operator, small operator eventually goes bankrupt, PA owns the well and all it's liabilities.

This scenario has played itself out thousands of times in PA.

That hole in the ground will be there for the life of the planet.

What's your maintenance plan?

Concrete shrinks with age, too...
 
2012-11-04 05:56:49 PM
Here's a video of a long abandoned well we found and hung a trail cam next to, showing the leaking methane (and other icky stuff) and deer and other wildlife and game drinking from the pool that always surrounds the abandoned well when air pressure drops below subsurface pressure allowing what's down there to come up here...

Link 

Who wants to eat PA venison now?
 
2012-11-04 06:02:48 PM

X-boxershorts: Dougie AXP: Unfortunately those wells were abandoned by previous operators who were independent and small wildcatters. Who were less then fastidious in their record keeping.

This is not accurate.

DEP began their records keeping functions as a factor of the 1984 oil and gas act. One major flaw of that act was that...they never reconciled their records with the old local records and the old geological survey maps were most of these records existed.

And the former oil and gas act of 1984 had a 2000 dollar restoration bond attached to it, which only applied to new wells drilled after Jan 1 1985.
And that bond never ever came close to the cost of properly plugging an abandoned well.

They updated that with the 2011 ACT13, now the bond averages about 6000 per unconventional well.

3 wells in Dimock, PA that DEP felt were responsible for the fouling is the water in Dimcok, all of them vertical marcellus wells, cost 700,000 each to plug.

The economics of well recovery bonding says this...

Drill a well, run it til it slows, sell it off to a small operator, small operator eventually goes bankrupt, PA owns the well and all it's liabilities.

This scenario has played itself out thousands of times in PA.

That hole in the ground will be there for the life of the planet.

What's your maintenance plan?

Concrete shrinks with age, too...


First off, thanks for the clarification. That failure to reconcile records isn't the fault of the industry. That's the fault of the DEP.

Secondly, when you refer to Dimock are you referring you referring to the stuff in Gasland? Because that was a chemical surface spill, not anything to do with the actual process for frac'ing.

As for the economics, I don't argue with what you wrote. That's how business works. What could and should happen is regulation/laws that link all operators to the liabilities of that well. Kind of like a superfund site.

Maintenance plan; I told you what we currently do to monitor well integrity. When it comes to complete well shut off/plugging, I've only seen one. As for long term, I've only been in the Nat Gas side for just over a year but in the overall business for 5 years.

I believe they also can set solid metal plugs (like we do when setting our zones for frac'ing) however, since I'm not a drilling engineer/geologist, I cannot tell you with 100% certainty what the actual plan is.

I understand your questions but I also must ask; what energy source is 100% risk free? None of them are. All come with problems.

Coal gets strip mining/acid rain erossion etc.

Nuclear? Nuclear waste.

Crude? There's only so much in the world.

Natural Gas drilling has their challenges too.

If you want change, be the change you want. Push your representative for change/new rules regulations. As we have seen in New York, it can be used to slow the pace until the operators meet whatever requirements/information providing that the state/local governments require.

The fact of the matter is that green energy, while promising, still needs more research dollars (which I personally support) and the industry is also researching. ExxonMobil is researching large scale production of biodiesel. Chevron and shell are working on mass ethanol (not from corn) production. Wind technology continues to improve efficiency as does solar panel research.

but until then, you need an energy policy like that of what President Obama advocates. An environmentally responsible "all of the above" attack.
 
2012-11-04 06:44:31 PM

Dougie AXP: Secondly, when you refer to Dimock are you referring you referring to the stuff in Gasland? Because that was a chemical surface spill, not anything to do with the actual process for frac'ing.


No, that is not Gasland, that is DEP records pointing to those 3 wells and the Carnegie Melon University study for the Commonwealth on the economics of the industry.

Dougie AXP: I understand your questions but I also must ask; what energy source is 100% risk free? None of them are. All come with problems.


Which is why I am not anti-fracking, but I am pissed as hell at both the state and the industry for blatantly lying about the risks AND the costs.


Dougie AXP: but until then, you need an energy policy like that of what President Obama advocates. An environmentally responsible "all of the above" attack.


Then, god damnit, this farking industry best god damn stop trying to export this shiat. Thus far, the industry actions say PROFIT is their only motive.

Again, not your fault, it's the state's responsibility. If only your industry hadn't compromised our state government....
 
2012-11-05 01:15:26 AM

sammyk: MurphyMurphy: starsrift: MurphyMurphy: ...One situation where an impartial state government would be nice. But the industry saw to it we wouldn't have that.

The first sentence of TFA notes this is a private well. While giving shale fracking permits, contaminated groundwater and such is the purview of the state, the cleanliness of the well's water and monitoring of it also bears private responsibility as well.

Without trying to sound Republican... government isn't the only answer here.

Nothing partisan about expecting responsibility from all parties.

I think there is room for responsibility to be shared. I think it should be the land owners responsibility to have the tests done before/during/after ...also in my little ideal world, the government would insist and verify that it happened to a more than satisfactory level of quality and impartiality.

Sounds easy... but we sure screwed it up here.

Why should the property owner have any responsibility? Why should a private property owner have to take on the cost of testing because big oil wants to make millions by fraking near his land?

It should be a cost of the fraking business period. You want a permit to frak you need to do a proper environmental impact study that includes testing all wells in the area prior to fraking. Don't wanna do that tough shiat. You want to make millions fraking its your farking responsibility to ensure you do not harm nearby property owners that are getting nothing from the fraking operation.


I'm sorry, I didn't explain well enough.

When I said property owner, I meant the person that owns the property that has leased it for drilling. The guy that makes money by letting people use his land.
 
2012-11-05 06:56:19 AM

MurphyMurphy: I'm sorry, I didn't explain well enough.

When I said property owner, I meant the person that owns the property that has leased it for drilling. The guy that makes money by letting people use his land.



Mr Kiskadden's land is useless now that the water is fouled. He can't even sell it because no bank in their right mind will underwrite a mortgage for it.
And his entire family has gotten very ill.

The state has water testing and reporting standards that, before the Marcellus gas rush, they followed stridently.
Standards that required the state too test AND REPORT for things like Chromium, Nickel, Silver and Arsenic.

Without changing law, the state changed the way they report. That is illegal.

And it took a FOIA act and a sworn deposition under subpoena to pull the truth from the State.

The drilling industry's fault lies before the gas rush when they promised such pie in the sky nonsense, like...nothing could ever go wrong, there's a mile of impermeable rock, we've been doing this (vertical wells only) for decades.

The real fault here is with the state, who, by their negligent and illegal shift in reporting standards, is actively working to give cover to the industry
by burying real data that renders the pie in the sky nonsense noted above to be exactly that, standard corporate American lies.
 
2012-11-05 06:58:02 AM

Giltric: Mrtraveler01: Wait a second subby,

Are you telling me that the PA Commonwealth Government is bought and paid for by the oil and gas lobby?

Someone grab me my fainting chair.

You ever notice that all these complex conspiracies against the people of the us involve hundreds of people who are able to keep their lips sealed about an ongoing conspiracy and it only happens when the dumb republican party that cant tie thier own shoe laces are in power?

Either they are smarter than you think or there is no conspiracy...

I wish i drew the look the other way republicans instead of the libby mcenviroweenie when they inspect my dams for seepage after a 3 day rainstorm

/its rainwater saturating the ground... Come back when its been sunshine for 3 days


I hope to god you aren't in charge of anything as important as a dam.
 
2012-11-05 09:34:11 AM

EnviroDude: If the frack wells are shallow and near the water producing sands, then they might interconnect. But my experience shows most residential water wells are shallow (
Anyway, the easiest way to remove Arsenic (naturally occurring), and BTEX is to install carbon filtration systems at each of the drinking water well heads.


So your plan is to

a) Pump poison in to the ground water than

b) require people to filter out the poison at their house?



seems legit
 
2012-11-05 10:18:15 AM
All this jabber jawing if well and good, but If these "free market the glorious corporation can do no wrong types" really want to put their money where their mouths are then they would show how harmless this sort of thing is by getting together and buy a nice summer home right up on these fracking sites to PROVE that they're safe. Surely if they're not just lying partisan scumbags willing to make money by poisoning their fellow Americans then they would be all over buy up some of this now cheap land and allow their loved ones to spend some time swimming in the local streams and ponds while drinking the local water. right? come on. Prove it's all safe and the environmentalist are just being alarmist.

What? no takers?

Hypnozombie
/then go DIAF douche bag
 
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