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(Guardian)   Thanks to Gary Johnson and the potheads, Colorado could get all nadered-up next Tuesday   ( guardian.co.uk) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Colorado, potheads  
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3773 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Nov 2012 at 10:59 AM (5 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-03 02:25:48 PM  

knobmaker: IntertubeUser: I voted for Gary Johnson.

I live in a state where Obama has a greater-than 10% lead over Rmoney. My big issues this election are opposing another war (Iran, Syria, etc.), civil rights (marriage equality and women's rights), and ending the "war" on drugs. I was extremely impressed with Jill Stein during an interview that I heard with her on my local NPR affiliate, but I was much less impressed with her and especially unimpressed with her running mate during an interview with Bill Moyers. I am receptive to arguments in favor of publicly-funded campaigns and nationalized healthcare. I especially like the Green Party's stance on not taking corporate donations. However, I am disappointed that the Green Party refuses to make intellectual, economist-driven arguments about economics; they use emotion and hyperbole, rather than reason.

I don't support Libertarian, laissez-faire. BP and the financial collapse of 2008 knocked that craziness out of me. But I do support getting government out of the morality business, endless wars and world policing, and laws which stifle all but the very largest corporations adept at using the government to limit competition. And, we desperately need a new party to end the GOP/Dem monopoly over our political system.

I voted for ZERO GOPers because I cannot morally justify supporting representatives of a party that gives refuge and voice to Theocrats, bigots, and anti-intellectaulists. And if I lived in most of the other states, I would've voted for Obama. But I decided to throw away my vote for President in the hopes of, one day, there being an alternative for Americans. I'm hoping that the Libertarian Party can become a (truly) fiscally-conservative and secular party of reason...for reasonable people. It isn't now, but it may be closer than the other parties.

This is about the only sensible post I've seen so far on the subject of Johnson's candidacy.

I'm particularly irritated by the morons who feel that Somalia ...


From the libertarian party platform:

2.8 Education

Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.


This sums up my disagreement with the libertarian party. They talk about personal responsibility and personal rights as paramount above all others. They brush aside the fact that outcomes in peoples' lives often times have nothing to do with their actions. Poor children should absolutely be provided an education of the same quality as the baseline in America. This should not be even open for debate.

Yes the Somalia argument is retarded. But so is the uncompromising attempt at applying a theoretical ideal to real world situations, which accurately describes the aims of the libertarian party.
 
2012-11-03 02:36:56 PM  

knobmaker: I'm particularly irritated by the morons who feel that Somalia is a libertarian paradise. The major plank in the libertarian political platform is the absolute proscription against force and fraud.


Smeggy Smurf: Play fair, make money, don't hurt other people or we hang you. No exceptions.


rthanu: Yes the Somalia argument is retarded. But so is the uncompromising attempt at applying a theoretical ideal to real world situations, which accurately describes the aims of the libertarian party.


The Somalia argument is REALITY. It is what happens when you don't have a government, you get the one you didn't want most of all. It is the simplest, most concise refutation of every "rational actor, no force, freedumb!" argument put forth. You don't like it because it the truth hurts.
 
2012-11-03 02:40:48 PM  

TheBigJerk: knobmaker: I'm particularly irritated by the morons who feel that Somalia is a libertarian paradise. The major plank in the libertarian political platform is the absolute proscription against force and fraud.

Smeggy Smurf: Play fair, make money, don't hurt other people or we hang you. No exceptions.

rthanu: Yes the Somalia argument is retarded. But so is the uncompromising attempt at applying a theoretical ideal to real world situations, which accurately describes the aims of the libertarian party.

The Somalia argument is REALITY. It is what happens when you don't have a government, you get the one you didn't want most of all. It is the simplest, most concise refutation of every "rational actor, no force, freedumb!" argument put forth. You don't like it because it the truth hurts.


There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America, and you would know this if you weren't as intellectually dishonest as the rightiest of the right. I'm not a big L or a little l or an Independent in any way, but the Somalia argument is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.
 
2012-11-03 02:49:40 PM  
Libertarians take more votes from Republicans than Democrats. If anything Johnson is helping Obama.
 
2012-11-03 02:52:27 PM  
There are plenty of socialist potheads, and we they are voting Obama.
 
2012-11-03 02:59:13 PM  

rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America, and you would know this if you weren't as intellectually dishonest as the rightiest of the right. I'm not a big L or a little l or an Independent in any way, but the Somalia argument is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D


Because you say so?
 
2012-11-03 03:02:53 PM  

rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America, and you would know this if you weren't as intellectually dishonest as the rightiest of the right. I'm not a big L or a little l or an Independent in any way, but the Somalia argument is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.


Funny how you can't list those 5 million other factors or go into more detail than saying, "It's retarded!" over and over. Almost as if those differences don't have any relevance.

Kind of UNlike how democrats can point out all the ways they're different from Republicans, and very much like how libertarians somehow manage to spend a lot of time attacking democrats but very little attacking republicans and when allowed into official debates are most likely just going to play spoiler for one side or the other (lol j/k it will be supporting the GOP every damn time).

But then you're trying to pretend Obama is worse for weed than Dubya, so really accusations of intellectual dishonesty are just more Republican projection. Oh wait you don't belong to whatever party I think you do. Whatever that party or non-party might happen to be.
 
2012-11-03 03:03:35 PM  

Tommy Moo: Libertarians take more votes from Republicans than Democrats. If anything Johnson is helping Obama.


Well in Colorado they're more concerned about college students in Boulder and Denver voting for Johnson when they would normally be voting for Obama. The major reason for this is the University of Colorado is probably the biggest stoner school in the country and weed legalization is on the ballot.

Personally I think it's probably overblown. Take the votes Ron Paul got in Colorado, add 1,00 and shift them to Johnson and you have his votes for Tuesday.

But again, if college students vote for Johnson and give the election to Romney they deserve the unlubed dicking that's coming to them.
 
2012-11-03 03:13:11 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America, and you would know this if you weren't as intellectually dishonest as the rightiest of the right. I'm not a big L or a little l or an Independent in any way, but the Somalia argument is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D

Because you say so?


Because look at their platform that I linked to and tell me how that would make America into Somalia. I'm not the one making the positive claim that Libertarianism = Somalia. At worst(and most likely) it would turn us into Gilded Age 2.0. Somalia would bust a farking nut if it was Gilded age 2.0
 
2012-11-03 03:16:30 PM  

Tommy Moo: Libertarians take more votes from Republicans than Democrats. If anything Johnson is helping Obama.


Eh, maybe. Thing is right-wingers don't tend to "protest vote" much, they'll badmouth people and rant in favor of a TPC but they'll still vote GOP when they're in the booth because part of the Republican idiom is "pragmatism over idealism." It may be as dubious as their claim to religion and morality (or the claim that those two are the same thing) but it's an established and accepted meme and it means that people who VALUE pragmatism are going to be, and vote, Republican. And in case it wasn't clear, voting D or R instead of third party is kind of the definition of pragmatism over idealism.

But maybe all those pothead idealists buying into the Gary Johnson scam (seriously, parties aside Gary Johnson is nothing but a profiteering Nigerian Prince) would have voted Republican, and maybe a Mitt Romney Presidency WOULDN'T result in military action against Iran, and maybe I'll win the lottery next time I decide to waste some money playing it.

Not bloody likely though.
 
2012-11-03 03:19:14 PM  

knobmaker: IntertubeUser: I voted for Gary Johnson.

I live in a state where Obama has a greater-than 10% lead over Rmoney. My big issues this election are opposing another war (Iran, Syria, etc.), civil rights (marriage equality and women's rights), and ending the "war" on drugs. I was extremely impressed with Jill Stein during an interview that I heard with her on my local NPR affiliate, but I was much less impressed with her and especially unimpressed with her running mate during an interview with Bill Moyers. I am receptive to arguments in favor of publicly-funded campaigns and nationalized healthcare. I especially like the Green Party's stance on not taking corporate donations. However, I am disappointed that the Green Party refuses to make intellectual, economist-driven arguments about economics; they use emotion and hyperbole, rather than reason.

I don't support Libertarian, laissez-faire. BP and the financial collapse of 2008 knocked that craziness out of me. But I do support getting government out of the morality business, endless wars and world policing, and laws which stifle all but the very largest corporations adept at using the government to limit competition. And, we desperately need a new party to end the GOP/Dem monopoly over our political system.

I voted for ZERO GOPers because I cannot morally justify supporting representatives of a party that gives refuge and voice to Theocrats, bigots, and anti-intellectaulists. And if I lived in most of the other states, I would've voted for Obama. But I decided to throw away my vote for President in the hopes of, one day, there being an alternative for Americans. I'm hoping that the Libertarian Party can become a (truly) fiscally-conservative and secular party of reason...for reasonable people. It isn't now, but it may be closer than the other parties.

This is about the only sensible post I've seen so far on the subject of Johnson's candidacy.

I'm particularly irritated by the morons who feel that Somalia ...



A lot of people in this thread (and in general) confuse "Libertarian" with "Anarchist".
 
2012-11-03 03:21:38 PM  
Glicky: In this Libertarian Universe, you would contract with a company to provide road services, As part of that contract you would absolve them from liability and any disputes would be taken of in arbitration.

See, this is the thing I've gotten from libertarian friends. I'd state that there is most certainly a place for proper governance and effective regulation; the response I got was that this is why we have the courts, so that those wronged could file suit against the responsible companies.

They didn't tak into account that, though this could work, those already farked will remain farked; moreover, the companies against whom the people are fighting have infinitely more resources at their disposal and will simply grind the complainants into dust, wipe their hands clean, and continue doing what they want to do.
 
2012-11-03 03:22:10 PM  

BMulligan: Oh, and another thing. It makes no sense whatsoever to vote for someone who literally has no chance of actually winning the election - that's just throwing your vote away. Think about that before you pull that lever for Romney!


Actually, it makes no sense whatsoever to go out and vote if your vote literally has no chance of deciding the election. "Ooh, Obama's margin of victory was 118,032 instead of 118,031!" What a waste of time.

/But hey, my time is my own to waste, and Oregon lets me vote by mail. 
//Besides, it's not like either main party is actually trying to fix the problem of spoilers, namely the stupid plurality voting system.
 
2012-11-03 03:23:06 PM  

TheBigJerk: rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America, and you would know this if you weren't as intellectually dishonest as the rightiest of the right. I'm not a big L or a little l or an Independent in any way, but the Somalia argument is R-E-T-A-R-D-E-D.

Funny how you can't list those 5 million other factors or go into more detail than saying, "It's retarded!" over and over. Almost as if those differences don't have any relevance.

Kind of UNlike how democrats can point out all the ways they're different from Republicans, and very much like how libertarians somehow manage to spend a lot of time attacking democrats but very little attacking republicans and when allowed into official debates are most likely just going to play spoiler for one side or the other (lol j/k it will be supporting the GOP every damn time).

But then you're trying to pretend Obama is worse for weed than Dubya, so really accusations of intellectual dishonesty are just more Republican projection. Oh wait you don't belong to whatever party I think you do. Whatever that party or non-party might happen to be.


Yeah 5 million is hyperbolic. but lets enumerate a few
1. Somalia's strife is largely the result of their poverty, not their form of governance.
2. Somalia's poverty is the result of having few resources compared to non-african countries. It's not as bad as Ethiopia or Chad, but they are pretty effing poor.
3. Somalia has not made the technological advancements the West and East have made in recent centuries due to # 2.

Compared to us, they are poor and technologically backward, just like much the rest of Africa. This is not the result of them democratically electing people who put the ideals of personal responsibility over all else. It's farking retarded to argue that.

I'm a democrat and align 60ish percent with their policies. But since I dare say that Obama is not God's gift to potheads i'm a closet republican. Obama's administration has done nothing to advance the cause of legalization, while doing just as much if not more to shiat on dispensaries.
 
2012-11-03 03:28:50 PM  

CokeBear: Seriously though, has this crazy shiat ever worked? Anywhere?


Yea, the United States from 1787 to about 1933, it had its ups and downs but the Depression and New Deal ended it.
 
2012-11-03 03:28:55 PM  

TheOther: Tough shiat. If you want somebody's vote, represent their interests; not just be LesserEvil tm


I take offense at your post. I will always be the better choice on the ballot.
 
2012-11-03 03:29:38 PM  
"Young people who are disappointed with the president are listening to what I have to say."

Yeah Gary, I know. And they won't shut up about how, if elected, you will magically fix all of our problems within the first six months of you being in office. Something tells me these are the same naive kids that expected Obama to fix everything in the first year and were pissed when he failed to meet their crazy expectations.
 
2012-11-03 03:30:25 PM  

GhostFish: I'd be more open to Libertarianism if it's supporters weren't such asshats.
Vocal libertarians are about as appealing as vocal vegetarians.
Same sanctimonious bullshiat. Same attempt at winning you over with browbeating.

You get more flies with honey, people.


Maybe I shouldn't be butting in here, but you can catch the most with dead squirrels.
 
2012-11-03 03:32:10 PM  

Fart_Machine: HeartBurnKid: Obama has stepped up marijuana enforcement, if anything; medical dispensaries have been closed down at a greater rate than under Bush.

Personally I have no problem with making marijuana legal and putting the same restrictions on it that we have on tobacco. Having said that, here in California medical dispensaries have been their own worst enemies. Voters enacted Prop. 215 based on compassion for medical users. Medical dispensaries popped up like crazy and without proper regulation instead of cancer and glaucoma patients you had a bunch of eighteen year old kids with prescriptions for "back pain" which fed into the arguments of the opponents and got the Fed and local authorities cracking down on them.

Look, just make the shait legal already but until then police your own industry.


THIS. People wanna biatch about Obama cracking down on dispensaries, but if they aren't even following their own laws, then, as much as I disagree, I understand why he would bust up the ones that aren't on the up-and-up. Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?
 
2012-11-03 03:32:31 PM  

thekingcobra: A lot of people in this thread (and in general)libertarians confuse "Libertarian" with "Anarchist".


fixed.
 
2012-11-03 03:34:51 PM  

Dancin_In_Anson: DammitIForgotMyLogin: The essence of the libertarian argument: I don't give a crap if it might endanger other people, you can't stop me doing what I want.

You know how I know that you know jack farking shiat about Libertarianism?


Sorry, I have had to listen to too many libertarians rant about how DUI laws are a violation of their fundamental human rights (which apparently include driving).
 
2012-11-03 03:36:49 PM  

Blue_Blazer: Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?


Because there are too farking many of them?
 
2012-11-03 03:38:17 PM  

Notabunny: fta Some Democrats, haunted by Ralph Nader's torpedoing of Al Gore in 2000,

That's arguable. Two or three times more Florida Democrats voted for Bush than for Nader. Also, Gore lost his home state. That said, I think the public would be well served by having at least two third-party candidates in the presidential debates. I think having at least a Green and a Libertarian would turn what is now essentially a mutual press conference into an actual debate, with interesting and exciting ideas being discussed and argued. Seems simple enough. You'd only need a few extra microphones.


I'm actually coming around to the idea that we shouldn't do the debate format. Instead you have each candidate come out one at a time and answer questions. Meanwhile, the other candidate(s) are sequestered in the green room. Then it's not about who gets in a zinger in response, but who can answer the moderator's questions. And the two parties might not mind including the L and G candidates, too, since they wouldn't be eating into their screen time.
 
2012-11-03 03:41:33 PM  

stoli n coke: Dancin_In_Anson: DammitIForgotMyLogin: The essence of the libertarian argument: I don't give a crap if it might endanger other people, you can't stop me doing what I want.

You know how I know that you know jack farking shiat about Libertarianism?

What's to know? A candidate runs in the primary as a Republican, loses said primary, claims he's now a Libertarian, mentions something about wanting to legalize weed, the Paultards eat it up, and suddenly he's bypassed his way onto the general ballot.

It's like how a lot of 2-time Bush voters I know suddenly started referring to themselves as Libertarians back in 2006.


That's a bit unfair to Gary Johnson. I know him, and I just can't believe he's this kind of opportunist. I think he's a true Republican, in the purest sense, and that his party has abandoned him.

He's always been a supporter of decriminalization/legalization of most drugs, including pot. He even said so when he ran and won the governorship of New Mexico. I think his beliefs to tend to run a bit more libertarian than republican, at least today's republican party. He's a good guy and if he were the Republican candidate, I'd probably be voting for him. He did an AMAZING job in New Mexico - cut the government, attracted private sector jobs, cut taxes, left a surplus, and all while working with a democratic legislature. I think he set a record on governor vetoes, and the democrats learned a hard lesson on government spending - which is still being felt in New Mexico. He changed politics there, and I think in a good way.

And for the record, I'm one of the liberalist liberals who ever libbed. He's the only Republican I've ever pushed a button for, and I don't regret those votes at all.
 
2012-11-03 03:44:35 PM  

Kevin72: joonyer: Oooh, Nader as a perjorative. You're SO edgy, subs!

Yes Nader is a pejorative. While 12 years later he is probably not the most hated man in America, it will not be forgotten that Nader gave the keys to the white house to the man who was vacationing in Crawford until the DAY BEFORE 9/11, lost the war on terror to clusterfark up Iraq, and put flushed our economy down the toilet after putting it in the toilet.


LMAO. Yes, all a guy's fault just for running for office. Brilliant.

Yes, it's a truly horrible thing to run for office, and for people to vote their conscience. Who would ever want people to do such a thing?

Keep rootin' for "your team". No matter how rigged the game is.
 
2012-11-03 03:46:46 PM  

daveUSMC: All my GOP friends are so mad at me for "giving Obama the election" and all my lib friends (and wife) are mad at me for giving it to Rmoney.


That makes no sense. Your lib friends and your wife should be thanking you for giving Obama the election. As do I; good show, and I encourage you to persuade other Republicans to vote for Johnson as well.
 
2012-11-03 03:47:01 PM  

thornhill: I love some of the arguments I'm hearing from Colorado about why folks are against legalizing pot.

My favorite is that Coloradians (is that what you call them?) don't want people coming to their state to buy weed and smoke. Or in other words, "please don't come to our state and spend your tourist dollars here."


Well, people in Amsterdam have complained quite vocally about that.

One of the better arguments is that it's in a constitutional amendment, and very specific about license fees and such, so it'd be hard to tinker with. Now, it's in an amendment because that's the only way the legislature is mandated to act on it.
 
2012-11-03 03:48:01 PM  

pciszek: Blue_Blazer: Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?

Because there are too farking many of them?


I don't think it's that simple. I might be wrong.
Unless they are out there every day busting up places and just can't keep up.
I'll try to study it out.

Oh and, because I am on their side:
They got the guns but, we got the numbers,
Gonna win yeah we're taking over.
 
2012-11-03 03:49:51 PM  

rthanu: Yeah 5 million is hyperbolic. but lets enumerate a few
1. Somalia's strife is largely the result of their poverty, not their form of governance.
2. Somalia's poverty is the result of having few resources compared to non-african countries. It's not as bad as Ethiopia or Chad, but they are pretty effing poor.
3. Somalia has not made the technological advancements the West and East have made in recent centuries due to # 2.

Compared to us, they are poor and technologically backward, just like much the rest of Africa. This is not the result of them democratically electing people who put the ideals of personal responsibility over all else. It's farking retarded to argue that.

I'm a democrat and align 60ish percent with their policies. But since I dare say that Obama is not God's gift to potheads i'm a closet republican. Obama's administration has done nothing to advance the cause of legalization, while doing just as much if not more to shiat on dispensaries.


Somalia's poverty is largely because the nation's wealth was extracted by the already-rich, who then took it and ran instead of a rising tide lifting all boats. 2 and 3 are the result of that. Somalia is the result of a weak central government collapsing, which is the goal of the LP. They waffle on whether or not they're willing to ADMIT that, but they have in the past and will again.

Obama's been better for weed than the GOP, I know it ain't much and I agree we could do with more, but let's not lie about who's been tepidly enforcing laws and who's been pushing for tougher laws and tighter enforcement.
 
2012-11-03 03:50:53 PM  

dr_blasto: I heard some Sheriff on KUNC talking it up from a law enforcement perspective.


Is he going to be allowed to keep his job? Police departments have become dependent on the asset forfeitures that illegal marijuana provides.
 
2012-11-03 03:54:21 PM  

Ishkur: Libertarianism: the erroneous philosophical assertion that getting rid of all traffic lights and laws will make people better drivers.


Coupled with the belief that any system more complicated than elementary school playground rules is dangerously incomprehensible, and must be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.
 
2012-11-03 03:56:06 PM  

rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America


The biggest ones are education and widespread literacy. If we eliminate public education entirely, as the libertarian party platform requires, within a generation we will go a long way towards something like Somalia.
 
2012-11-03 03:57:17 PM  

pciszek: rthanu: There are about 5 million other factors that seperates Somalia from a theoretical Libertarian America

The biggest ones are education and widespread literacy. If we eliminate public education entirely, as the libertarian party platform requires, within a generation we will go a long way towards something like Somalia.


Agreed. Anybody who wants to get rid of free public education is an enemy of the people.
 
2012-11-03 03:58:49 PM  

Blue_Blazer: pciszek: Blue_Blazer: Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?

Because there are too farking many of them?

I don't think it's that simple. I might be wrong.
Unless they are out there every day busting up places and just can't keep up.
I'll try to study it out.

Oh and, because I am on their side:
They got the guns but, we got the numbers,
Gonna win yeah we're taking over.


From the L.A. Times
Link
In the early days of President Obama's tenure, Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. announced that prosecutors would not target medical marijuana users and caregivers as long as they followed state laws. But as the risk of prosecution diminished, storefront dispensaries and enormous growing operations proliferated in California, often in defiance of zoning laws and local bans.

Last year, California's four U.S. attorneys announced that they were taking aim at large-scale growers.
 
2012-11-03 04:00:37 PM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: I'm actually coming around to the idea that we shouldn't do the debate format. Instead you have each candidate come out one at a time and answer questions. Meanwhile, the other candidate(s) are sequestered in the green room. Then it's not about who gets in a zinger in response, but who can answer the moderator's questions. And the two parties might not mind including the L and G candidates, too, since they wouldn't be eating into their screen time.


I recall them doing that in 2008, the Republicans cheating, the moderator being in the tank for McCain, and the "liberal media" whining about the moderator being "in the tank for Obama."
 
2012-11-03 04:02:02 PM  
Being knows as a Libertarian here on Fark, I am willing to give my main concern with the philosophy of my party. As someone earlier in the thread stated, It does not scale very well if only implemented at the federal level. Society nowadays waaaaay too complex. For it to work, all three levels have to implement it. With the federal level only role to enforce basic human rights, defense, and "true" interstate commerce (infrastructure and best practice standards and regulations).
 
2012-11-03 04:02:26 PM  

pciszek: The biggest ones are education and widespread literacy. If we eliminate public education entirely, as the libertarian party platform requires, within a generation we will go a long way towards something like Somalia.


That's exactly the point of that "Atlas Shrugged" movie. Randians understand that if they get their way, then the next generation won't be able to read Ayn Rand; hence to have a consistent philosophy, they must put it all in action movie form.
 
2012-11-03 04:02:27 PM  

Blue_Blazer: Fart_Machine: HeartBurnKid: Obama has stepped up marijuana enforcement, if anything; medical dispensaries have been closed down at a greater rate than under Bush.

Personally I have no problem with making marijuana legal and putting the same restrictions on it that we have on tobacco. Having said that, here in California medical dispensaries have been their own worst enemies. Voters enacted Prop. 215 based on compassion for medical users. Medical dispensaries popped up like crazy and without proper regulation instead of cancer and glaucoma patients you had a bunch of eighteen year old kids with prescriptions for "back pain" which fed into the arguments of the opponents and got the Fed and local authorities cracking down on them.

Look, just make the shait legal already but until then police your own industry.

THIS. People wanna biatch about Obama cracking down on dispensaries, but if they aren't even following their own laws, then, as much as I disagree, I understand why he would bust up the ones that aren't on the up-and-up. Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?


Not to mention that far more dispensaries here have closed due to city ordinances banning them than any federal enforcement. I got particularly annoyed at my city, which has been in a decades-long and failing struggle to revitalize their struggling retail district, banning dispensaries from every available retail area. I guess they were too chicken to just ban them like all the neighboring towns in the county. I'd look at that and see a great opportunity to draw dollars from outside the community, but I guess pot is scary and you should be scared of it.
 
2012-11-03 04:05:07 PM  

GAT_00: LectertheChef: Anybody who's not an under 25 white middle-class (Or higher) male and still a Libertarian is just an idiot.

No, just a self-centered jackass.


I'm 28, and every four years I get a free reminder why I'm a libertarian.

/Have fun arguing about the douche and the turd sandwich
 
2012-11-03 04:07:18 PM  

TheBigJerk: rthanu: Yeah 5 million is hyperbolic. but lets enumerate a few
1. Somalia's strife is largely the result of their poverty, not their form of governance.
2. Somalia's poverty is the result of having few resources compared to non-african countries. It's not as bad as Ethiopia or Chad, but they are pretty effing poor.
3. Somalia has not made the technological advancements the West and East have made in recent centuries due to # 2.

Compared to us, they are poor and technologically backward, just like much the rest of Africa. This is not the result of them democratically electing people who put the ideals of personal responsibility over all else. It's farking retarded to argue that.

I'm a democrat and align 60ish percent with their policies. But since I dare say that Obama is not God's gift to potheads i'm a closet republican. Obama's administration has done nothing to advance the cause of legalization, while doing just as much if not more to shiat on dispensaries.

Somalia's poverty is largely because the nation's wealth was extracted by the already-rich, who then took it and ran instead of a rising tide lifting all boats. 2 and 3 are the result of that. Somalia is the result of a weak central government collapsing, which is the goal of the LP. They waffle on whether or not they're willing to ADMIT that, but they have in the past and will again.

Obama's been better for weed than the GOP, I know it ain't much and I agree we could do with more, but let's not lie about who's been tepidly enforcing laws and who's been pushing for tougher laws and tighter enforcement.


That same song about the flight of wealth could be sang about the rest of Africa as well, but some of those states still have a strongish functional central government. Should we then argue paces like Uganda and Zimbabwe are the analog to the current American government? No, because that is absurd. So is the Libertarianism leads to Somalia argument. As an aside, can we even say that life under Mugabe is significantly better than life in Somalia? Not really.

Obama talked in 2008 somewhat pro pot. But actions speak louder than words. His actions have deviated from American policy on marijuana 0% from what I've seen. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to see it and withdraw my argument.

Do I think Libertarianism is the answer for America? Hell no.
Do I hate bad arguments? Yes.
 
2012-11-03 04:09:44 PM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Blue_Blazer: Fart_Machine: HeartBurnKid: Obama has stepped up marijuana enforcement, if anything; medical dispensaries have been closed down at a greater rate than under Bush.

Personally I have no problem with making marijuana legal and putting the same restrictions on it that we have on tobacco. Having said that, here in California medical dispensaries have been their own worst enemies. Voters enacted Prop. 215 based on compassion for medical users. Medical dispensaries popped up like crazy and without proper regulation instead of cancer and glaucoma patients you had a bunch of eighteen year old kids with prescriptions for "back pain" which fed into the arguments of the opponents and got the Fed and local authorities cracking down on them.

Look, just make the shait legal already but until then police your own industry.

THIS. People wanna biatch about Obama cracking down on dispensaries, but if they aren't even following their own laws, then, as much as I disagree, I understand why he would bust up the ones that aren't on the up-and-up. Why do you think they haven't ALL been busted anyway?

Not to mention that far more dispensaries here have closed due to city ordinances banning them than any federal enforcement. I got particularly annoyed at my city, which has been in a decades-long and failing struggle to revitalize their struggling retail district, banning dispensaries from every available retail area. I guess they were too chicken to just ban them like all the neighboring towns in the county. I'd look at that and see a great opportunity to draw dollars from outside the community, but I guess pot is scary and you should be scared of it.


Oh sweet, real actual boots-on-the-ground evidence. Thanks for adding this to the conversation.
 
2012-11-03 04:12:15 PM  

rthanu: TheBigJerk: rthanu: Yeah 5 million is hyperbolic. but lets enumerate a few
1. Somalia's strife is largely the result of their poverty, not their form of governance.
2. Somalia's poverty is the result of having few resources compared to non-african countries. It's not as bad as Ethiopia or Chad, but they are pretty effing poor.
3. Somalia has not made the technological advancements the West and East have made in recent centuries due to # 2.

Compared to us, they are poor and technologically backward, just like much the rest of Africa. This is not the result of them democratically electing people who put the ideals of personal responsibility over all else. It's farking retarded to argue that.

I'm a democrat and align 60ish percent with their policies. But since I dare say that Obama is not God's gift to potheads i'm a closet republican. Obama's administration has done nothing to advance the cause of legalization, while doing just as much if not more to shiat on dispensaries.

Somalia's poverty is largely because the nation's wealth was extracted by the already-rich, who then took it and ran instead of a rising tide lifting all boats. 2 and 3 are the result of that. Somalia is the result of a weak central government collapsing, which is the goal of the LP. They waffle on whether or not they're willing to ADMIT that, but they have in the past and will again.

Obama's been better for weed than the GOP, I know it ain't much and I agree we could do with more, but let's not lie about who's been tepidly enforcing laws and who's been pushing for tougher laws and tighter enforcement.

That same song about the flight of wealth could be sang about the rest of Africa as well, but some of those states still have a strongish functional central government. Should we then argue paces like Uganda and Zimbabwe are the analog to the current American government? No, because that is absurd. So is the Libertarianism leads to Somalia argument. As an aside, can we even say that life ...


What about what I posted above from the L.A. Times? I know it's just some reporting claiming to repeat what Holder said, but if it's true, then what? Will you concede that the ones being busted are the ones breaking local laws and not just the ones that Mr. Sinister Obama decided to bust because he's a mean lying poopyhead?
 
2012-11-03 04:15:16 PM  
Blue_Blazer:Mr. Sinister Obama

Will someone with good photoshop skills please shop that image for me? I would save it forever.
 
2012-11-03 04:17:41 PM  
I'm trying to get drunk then drive and go vote for Romney in my wife beater. Fark you if you want to vote for someone who has the same interests as you.
 
2012-11-03 04:18:52 PM  

Blue_Blazer: What about what I posted above from the L.A. Times? I know it's just some reporting claiming to repeat what Holder said, but if it's true, then what? Will you concede that the ones being busted are the ones breaking local laws and not just the ones that Mr. Sinister Obama decided to bust because he's a mean lying poopyhead?


Yes. I was posting what I posted while yours was posted. I concede that Obama is not as anti pot as his predecessors.

How about you tone down the Mr. Sinister Obama blah blah blah... Tell me where I came within a mile of saying anything about that. I'm voting for him, I like him, I agree with him more often than not.

I have to be honest. I feel more more aligned with the left than the right, but I don't agree with the left 100% of the time. Those rare times that I do disagree with the left and I vocalize it, I get shiat on by the rest of you like I'm just as bad as tenpoundsocheese. It's disheartening. Knock it off.
 
2012-11-03 04:20:09 PM  

TheOther: Tough shiat. If you want somebody's vote, represent their interests; not just be LesserEvil tm


But I like LesserEvil™. It's delicious.

lesserevil.comView Full Size
 
2012-11-03 04:22:50 PM  

Fart_Machine: HeartBurnKid: Obama has stepped up marijuana enforcement, if anything; medical dispensaries have been closed down at a greater rate than under Bush.

Personally I have no problem with making marijuana legal and putting the same restrictions on it that we have on tobacco. Having said that, here in California medical dispensaries have been their own worst enemies. Voters enacted Prop. 215 based on compassion for medical users. Medical dispensaries popped up like crazy and without proper regulation instead of cancer and glaucoma patients you had a bunch of eighteen year old kids with prescriptions for "back pain" which fed into the arguments of the opponents and got the Fed and local authorities cracking down on them.

Look, just make the shait legal already but until then police your own industry.


My mom uses medical marijuana to help her with the pain caused by her arthritis and her lupus. There's a ton of other stuff it's good for, too. If you think that cancer and glaucoma patients are the only ones that need it, you're the problem, not the dispensaries.
 
2012-11-03 04:24:44 PM  

rthanu: Blue_Blazer: What about what I posted above from the L.A. Times? I know it's just some reporting claiming to repeat what Holder said, but if it's true, then what? Will you concede that the ones being busted are the ones breaking local laws and not just the ones that Mr. Sinister Obama decided to bust because he's a mean lying poopyhead?

Yes. I was posting what I posted while yours was posted. I concede that Obama is not as anti pot as his predecessors.

How about you tone down the Mr. Sinister Obama blah blah blah... Tell me where I came within a mile of saying anything about that. I'm voting for him, I like him, I agree with him more often than not.

I have to be honest. I feel more more aligned with the left than the right, but I don't agree with the left 100% of the time. Those rare times that I do disagree with the left and I vocalize it, I get shiat on by the rest of you like I'm just as bad as tenpoundsocheese. It's disheartening. Knock it off.


I appreciate your willingness to do exactly what you said and withdraw your argument, and I was just using "Mr. Sinister Obama" as pure hyperbole. But Mr. Sinister is one of my favorite Marvel villains and I would sincerely like to have a picture of Obama as him. Not kidding a bit.
 
2012-11-03 04:25:49 PM  
I voted for Gary Johnson already (absentee ballot). Of course, I live in Maryland so there's no chance that will help Romney's chances. If I lived in a swing state, I'd have voted for Obama - no question.

I've been a Republican for all my adult life, but I just can't stand the party any more. I wanted to send them a message by shifting Republican votes to another party. I don't want my dissatisfaction with the Republican party to help Romney though, but luckily I don't have to worry about that. Obama's not a BAD president, I give him a C+/B-, but I'm sick of the corrupt, oligarchical two-party system we have now. Not a fan of the Libertarians per se, but I do think them becoming stronger and bringing a little more competition in to the mix would be a good thing in the long run. Keep the other two parties a little more honest.

But our current dichotomy of different flavors of robber baron scumbags is no good for our country.
 
2012-11-03 04:26:15 PM  

Blue_Blazer: rthanu: Blue_Blazer: What about what I posted above from the L.A. Times? I know it's just some reporting claiming to repeat what Holder said, but if it's true, then what? Will you concede that the ones being busted are the ones breaking local laws and not just the ones that Mr. Sinister Obama decided to bust because he's a mean lying poopyhead?

Yes. I was posting what I posted while yours was posted. I concede that Obama is not as anti pot as his predecessors.

How about you tone down the Mr. Sinister Obama blah blah blah... Tell me where I came within a mile of saying anything about that. I'm voting for him, I like him, I agree with him more often than not.

I have to be honest. I feel more more aligned with the left than the right, but I don't agree with the left 100% of the time. Those rare times that I do disagree with the left and I vocalize it, I get shiat on by the rest of you like I'm just as bad as tenpoundsocheese. It's disheartening. Knock it off.

I appreciate your willingness to do exactly what you said and withdraw your argument, and I was just using "Mr. Sinister Obama" as pure hyperbole. But Mr. Sinister is one of my favorite Marvel villains and I would sincerely like to have a picture of Obama as him. Not kidding a bit.


And I was perhaps tough on you, but I've seen this same argument in this thread about ten times (not saying it was you every time) and so yeah I did want to see an actual response, which you willingly gave and I graciously accept.
 
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