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(CNN)   Hágoónee'   (edition.cnn.com) divider line 72
    More: Sad, Navajo, World War II, Navajo Nation, Iwo Jima  
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12110 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Nov 2012 at 11:04 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



72 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-11-02 10:17:17 AM  
Ack.
 
2012-11-02 10:26:32 AM  
In before someone claims the Navajo code was unbreakable, because honestly, had the Japanese been competent at SIGINT, they would have been able to break it. One mitigating factor was that it was used for low-level tactical information, and the war was a series of island hopping campaigns, so that makes it harder to intercept and analyze. It wasn't used for important strategic messages.

Now that that's out of the way,
[Snaps to attention, salutes]
Godspeed Marine, and thank you for your service.
 
2012-11-02 11:09:39 AM  
The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.
 
2012-11-02 11:11:47 AM  
Gesundheit!
 
2012-11-02 11:17:07 AM  
Thank you soldier, rest in peace.
 
2012-11-02 11:18:46 AM  
Farewell, Grandfather.
 
2012-11-02 11:19:25 AM  
FTFA: It was the only code the Japanese never managed to crack.

I doubt this.
 
2012-11-02 11:23:24 AM  

dittybopper: In before someone claims the Navajo code was unbreakable, because honestly, had the Japanese been competent at SIGINT, they would have been able to break it.


They should have enlisted the help of their Axis allies, the Grammar Nazis.
 
2012-11-02 11:28:30 AM  

Ambitwistor: dittybopper: In before someone claims the Navajo code was unbreakable, because honestly, had the Japanese been competent at SIGINT, they would have been able to break it.

They should have enlisted the help of their Axis allies, the Grammar Nazis.


/golf clap
 
2012-11-02 11:30:42 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-11-02 11:30:45 AM  
This deserves a Hero tag.
 
2012-11-02 11:31:56 AM  
In before Christian Slater's head rolls by.
 
2012-11-02 11:32:45 AM  
Thanks for helping my father stay safe in WWII in the Pacific.

Yes not grandfather.
 
2012-11-02 11:33:12 AM  
i.imgur.com

RIP CODE TALKER
 
2012-11-02 11:33:20 AM  
Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**
 
2012-11-02 11:35:56 AM  
i105.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-02 11:37:06 AM  

Slaxl: The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.


Yeah, except for the whole frikkin' Navajo Nation.
*rollseyes.jpeg.*
 
2012-11-02 11:40:11 AM  
I followed the Jean Shrimpton link and I would only like to say that Sarica Jessa Parker should decline offers to attend horseraces.
 
2012-11-02 11:42:14 AM  
borderlessnewsandviews.com
 
2012-11-02 11:42:24 AM  

dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**


Anyone interested in the history of the Navajos needs to read this book:

i43.tower.com


I had no idea they were such badasses, and were as fearsome as the Apaches or Comanches.
 
2012-11-02 11:46:52 AM  

Maud Dib: Slaxl: The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.

Yeah, except for the whole frikkin' Navajo Nation.
*rollseyes.jpeg.*


Sadly enough, there are more Diné that can't speak the language than can nowadays. Though the immersion schools on the reservation are trying to save our language, and along with it a large part of our culture.

/Diné
//can't speak or read the language
 
2012-11-02 11:47:01 AM  
3 years ago we stopped at a burger king driving through the navajo rez. In side the burger king was the museum to the codetalkers.

I thought that was odd.
 
2012-11-02 11:54:03 AM  
Ahehee'

Rest in peace code talker
 
2012-11-02 11:57:06 AM  
img217.imageshack.us

Code Talker Smith was born on June 15, 1922 in Mariano Lake, New Mexico. He attended school at Crownpoint, Fort Wingate and eventually earned his diesel mechanic credentials in Chicago, Illinois.

Code Talker Smith enlisted with the US Marines in 1943 and was trained as Navajo Code Talker. He achieved the rank of Corporal while serving in World War II in the Pacific Theater. He fought in battles at Siapan, Tinian, Ryukyu Islands and served in places such as Okinawa, Hawaii and Japan.

He served as a Code Talker with his brother, Albert Smith.

After serving his country, he began work at Fort Wingate Army Depot as destroyer of old ammunition. He then began work as a mechanic at Fort Wingate Trading Post, working for Paul Merrill. His career eventually led him to Fort Defiance where he was a shop foreman. He eventually finished his career in Shiprock working for Navajo Engineering Construction Authority as a heavy equipment mechanic.
 
2012-11-02 11:57:29 AM  
thumbs.anyclip.com

Jahé, everybody, jahé 

/I can say hello in a lot of languages
//
 
2012-11-02 11:59:40 AM  

dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.


Yeah lest we forget our own native american genocide. (In our defense, it was mostly disease that wiped them out, not wars or systematic murder.)

Checking out charitynavigator now for some native american donation options.
 
2012-11-02 12:00:15 PM  
For some reason looking at the headline made me think of Jawas.
 
2012-11-02 12:00:39 PM  
Original American
 
2012-11-02 12:02:46 PM  
[sheds tears, can't speak]
 
2012-11-02 12:07:38 PM  

dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**


What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?
 
2012-11-02 12:09:12 PM  

dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**


And the last to biatch and moan about how we were wronged and deserve reparations.

All I can really say about black folks in this country is STFU... at least the federal government didn't march you into concentration camps after the genocide didn't work.

To hell with 40 acres and a mule... there's 100,000+ people on the rez that don't have running water or even ready access to clean water... in 2012.

/rant
 
2012-11-02 12:18:17 PM  
I wish the stereotype Indians were known for was the huge % who serve in the military. Many, many Indian veterans. 

/salute
 
2012-11-02 12:19:48 PM  
I think we should have offered the larger tribes the opportunity to become States of the Union, back before Andrew Jackson started his systematic campaigns of genocide.
 
2012-11-02 12:20:09 PM  

topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?


The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.
 
2012-11-02 12:20:23 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: FTFA: It was the only code the Japanese never managed to crack.

I doubt this.


You should doubt it, because it isn't true. The Japanese were singularly *BAD* at signals intelligence. Even the friggin' *ITALIANS* were better at it. The Japanese only managed to crack some low-level codes and ciphers:

In sharp distinction to American cryptanalysts, who were reading the vast majority of Japanese messages, including those in the crypto systems of top most security, the code-breakers of the Tokumu Han failed almost completely in extracting usable information from American messages. They did not even attempt to solve medium- and high-echelon messages, couched in crypto systems far beyond their ability. They concentrated instead on three simpler crypto systems of the lowest level of command. Even with these, they achieved only limited success.
-The Codebreakers by David Kahn. More specific information at the link.
 
2012-11-02 12:23:35 PM  

dothemath: topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?

The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.


And by expression, you mean some over-reaching hyperbole that puts them ahead of other races.
 
2012-11-02 12:28:13 PM  

Ambitwistor: dittybopper: In before someone claims the Navajo code was unbreakable, because honestly, had the Japanese been competent at SIGINT, they would have been able to break it.

They should have enlisted the help of their Axis allies, the Grammar Nazis.


That's teh funnay, but on a serious note, we didn't use codetalkers in Europe in WWII to any great degree, because serious effort by the Germans would have likely cracked it. The Germans were much more competent at signals intelligence and codebreaking than the Japanese.
 
2012-11-02 12:28:48 PM  
Hágoónee'
images.sodahead.com
 
2012-11-02 12:30:08 PM  

topcon: dothemath: topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?

The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.

And by expression, you mean some over-reaching hyperbole that puts them ahead of other races.


Enlisting at a rate of 12-14% per population, yes.

The most overrepresented group is Native/ Hawaiian/ Other Pacific Islander, with a ratio of 7.49 in 2005, or an overrepresentation of 649 percent.
 
2012-11-02 12:31:19 PM  
Fugawi...
 
2012-11-02 12:31:39 PM  

topcon: dothemath: topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?

The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.

And by expression, you mean some over-reaching hyperbole that puts them ahead of other races.


Over-reaching? Every male member of my family born this century had served in the military, US Army to be exact. My great-grandfather didn't, but he was a medicine man, and from a different era (his parents took the Long Walk to Bosque Redondo). I didn't serve due to my medical history PDQ'ing me at MEPS.

It has nothing at all to do with racial superiority, and everything to do with the large percentage of Diné who have served, and still do to this day. Think about it... these men and women volunteer to serve in the same Army that was used as a tool of their own extermination in the 1800's. We're sort of a "live and let live" people.
 
2012-11-02 12:34:10 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: topcon: dothemath: topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?

The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.

And by expression, you mean some over-reaching hyperbole that puts them ahead of other races.

Over-reaching? Every male member of my family born this century had served in the military, US Army to be exact. My great-grandfather didn't, but he was a medicine man, and from a different era (his parents took the Long Walk to Bosque Redondo). I didn't serve due to my medical history PDQ'ing me at MEPS.

It has nothing at all to do with racial superiority, and everything to do with the large percentage of Diné who have served, and still do to this day. Think about it... these men and women volunteer to serve in the same Army that was used as a tool of their own extermination in the 1800's. We're sort of a "live and let live" people.


Derp-- "every male member of my family born LAST century", that is... damn I feel old now.
 
2012-11-02 12:34:48 PM  
it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?
 
2012-11-02 12:39:09 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: topcon: dothemath: topcon: dothemath: Man, it always amazes me how the people that have been farked over the hardest by the US government are the first in line to sign up.

**SALUTE**

What were they the first in line to sign up for, since you put it out there?

The military.
And no I dont meant that a Native American was literally the first person to ever join the Army.
It's just an expression, dummy.

And by expression, you mean some over-reaching hyperbole that puts them ahead of other races.

Over-reaching? Every male member of my family born this century had served in the military, US Army to be exact. My great-grandfather didn't, but he was a medicine man, and from a different era (his parents took the Long Walk to Bosque Redondo). I didn't serve due to my medical history PDQ'ing me at MEPS.

It has nothing at all to do with racial superiority, and everything to do with the large percentage of Diné who have served, and still do to this day. Think about it... these men and women volunteer to serve in the same Army that was used as a tool of their own extermination in the 1800's. We're sort of a "live and let live" people.


Yeah, and that's good that a small group of people have a tradition, but the overwhelming majority of the military is white, followed by blacks. It's great that so many serve, but the original comment struck me as saying "Our people sign up for all the nasty jobs while other people just sit back and watch us die."

And for that link posted a couple of posts up, American Indian was a separate category from Hawaiians, at the top.
 
2012-11-02 12:44:59 PM  
And for that link posted a couple of posts up, American Indian was a separate category from Hawaiians, at the top.

So it was, you are correct. The Hawaiian/Pacific Islanders are even higher. That doesn't surprise me either.
 
2012-11-02 12:49:43 PM  
topcon:

Yeah, and that's good that a small group of people have a tradition, but the overwhelming majority of the military is white, followed by blacks. It's great that so many serve, but the original comment struck me as saying "Our people sign up for all the nasty jobs while other people just sit back and watch us die."

And for that link posted a couple of posts up, American Indian was a separate category from Hawaiians, at the top.


And the overwhelming majority of Americans are white, followed by blacks. There's only about 200 or so million more white people in this country than Native Americans of every tribe combined.

The original comment wasn't mine, so I won't speculate on it's intended meaning-- though I will say this:

It says a great deal about the cultural attitude of our people vs. say, African Americans. I live in the south, I've grown up around black families that have sustained themselves for generations on social welfare programs and still feel the need to piss and moan about what they're "owed". My people have, for generations now, volunteered to serve in the same military that was once used as a tool for our attempted genocide.

/just sayin'
 
2012-11-02 12:50:44 PM  

nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?


Yes, they were generally sent by radio. In fact, that's why they were used, because they were faster than other more conventional means of encryption, where a message would be written, encrypted either manually or using a machine, and then either sent by Morse or spelled out by voice, and the process reversed at the other end. With code talkers, they have the code pretty much memorized*, so it was essentially just a translation from English to slangy Navajo on the fly, over the radio, with the receiver just writing down the English version.

It's a system that was faster, but it certainly wasn't very secure cryptographically. Had the Japanese been a bit smarter, they could have exploited it. As it was, they *HAD* a Navajo speaker as a POW, and they had him listen, but when he reported that it was gibberish (he hadn't been trained as a code talker), they just roughed him up for a while and then dropped it. What they *SHOULD* have done is taken a more gentle approach, and just told him to write down what he heard, as he heard it, and then let the cryptanalysts work on it.


*It doesn't take great mental powers to remember that "tortoise" = "tank", "iron fish" = "submarine", etc.
 
2012-11-02 12:52:48 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: topcon:

Yeah, and that's good that a small group of people have a tradition, but the overwhelming majority of the military is white, followed by blacks. It's great that so many serve, but the original comment struck me as saying "Our people sign up for all the nasty jobs while other people just sit back and watch us die."

And for that link posted a couple of posts up, American Indian was a separate category from Hawaiians, at the top.

And the overwhelming majority of Americans are white, followed by blacks. There's only about 200 or so million more white people in this country than Native Americans of every tribe combined.

The original comment wasn't mine, so I won't speculate on it's intended meaning-- though I will say this:

It says a great deal about the cultural attitude of our people vs. say, African Americans. I live in the south, I've grown up around black families that have sustained themselves for generations on social welfare programs and still feel the need to piss and moan about what they're "owed". My people have, for generations now, volunteered to serve in the same military that was once used as a tool for our attempted genocide.

/just sayin'


By all means, that's a good tradition and mindset to have.
 
2012-11-02 12:58:08 PM  
While the Navajo nation is famous for being Code Talkers, the Choctaw nation did a similar service in WWI against the Germans. The Germans were tapping into the American telephone lines and swiftly broke every code the Americans tried until someone got the bright idea to use some Choctaw native Americans serving as doughboys in the infantry. It was this success that led to the Navajo program in the next war, even though Phillip Johnson had to start from square one to convince Major General Clayton Vogel to use the Navajos. Also in WWII the Americans had a small unit of Comanche signal corps that they used in the Hurtgen forest and Battle of the Bulge campaigns against the Germans.

Many thanks to them all, and RIP George Smith.
 
2012-11-02 01:14:57 PM  

dittybopper: nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?

Yes, they were generally sent by radio. In fact, that's why they were used, because they were faster than other more conventional means of encryption, where a message would be written, encrypted either manually or using a machine, and then either sent by Morse or spelled out by voice, and the process reversed at the other end. With code talkers, they have the code pretty much memorized*, so it was essentially just a translation from English to slangy Navajo on the fly, over the radio, with the receiver just writing down the English version.

It's a system that was faster, but it certainly wasn't very secure cryptographically. Had the Japanese been a bit smarter, they could have exploited it. As it was, they *HAD* a Navajo speaker as a POW, and they had him listen, but when he reported that it was gibberish (he hadn't been trained as a code talker), they just roughed him up for a while and then dropped it. What they *SHOULD* have done is taken a more gentle approach, and just told him to write down what he heard, as he heard it, and then let the cryptanalysts work on it.


*It doesn't take great mental powers to remember that "tortoise" = "tank", "iron fish" = "submarine", etc.


That's rather interesting and today I learned something thanks to this thread. I guess what I don't get is HOW "Hágoónee'" came to be if there wasn't written form. I'd be more than happy to learn some more. Obviously they spoke to each other but is the word in headline just spelled out phonetically?
 
2012-11-02 01:25:06 PM  

nbrfwhoooo: dittybopper: nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?

Yes, they were generally sent by radio. In fact, that's why they were used, because they were faster than other more conventional means of encryption, where a message would be written, encrypted either manually or using a machine, and then either sent by Morse or spelled out by voice, and the process reversed at the other end. With code talkers, they have the code pretty much memorized*, so it was essentially just a translation from English to slangy Navajo on the fly, over the radio, with the receiver just writing down the English version.

It's a system that was faster, but it certainly wasn't very secure cryptographically. Had the Japanese been a bit smarter, they could have exploited it. As it was, they *HAD* a Navajo speaker as a POW, and they had him listen, but when he reported that it was gibberish (he hadn't been trained as a code talker), they just roughed him up for a while and then dropped it. What they *SHOULD* have done is taken a more gentle approach, and just told him to write down what he heard, as he heard it, and then let the cryptanalysts work on it.


*It doesn't take great mental powers to remember that "tortoise" = "tank", "iron fish" = "submarine", etc.

That's rather interesting and today I learned something thanks to this thread. I guess what I don't get is HOW "Hágoónee'" came to be if there wasn't written form. I'd be more than happy to learn some more. Obviously they spoke to each other but is the word in headline just spelled out phonetically?


A lot of it is spelled out phonetically. My original family name as it appears on the Navajo tribal census (1928, I do believe) is written (by a Navajo) as "Teh-bah-heh-nez-bega", the english translation being "Son of Tall Man of the Water Edge Clan".

CSB: My great-grandfather (Son of Tall Man) named his children after General Sherman (one and the same), who was an executor of the 1868 treaty of Bosque Redondo, consequently considered a great man by the tribe-- and the reason a number of Navajo descendants like myself share the surname Sherman, though we have no direct blood relation to William Tecumseh Sherman.
 
2012-11-02 01:47:01 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: nbrfwhoooo: dittybopper: nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?

Yes, they were generally sent by radio. In fact, that's why they were used, because they were faster than other more conventional means of encryption, where a message would be written, encrypted either manually or using a machine, and then either sent by Morse or spelled out by voice, and the process reversed at the other end. With code talkers, they have the code pretty much memorized*, so it was essentially just a translation from English to slangy Navajo on the fly, over the radio, with the receiver just writing down the English version.

It's a system that was faster, but it certainly wasn't very secure cryptographically. Had the Japanese been a bit smarter, they could have exploited it. As it was, they *HAD* a Navajo speaker as a POW, and they had him listen, but when he reported that it was gibberish (he hadn't been trained as a code talker), they just roughed him up for a while and then dropped it. What they *SHOULD* have done is taken a more gentle approach, and just told him to write down what he heard, as he heard it, and then let the cryptanalysts work on it.


*It doesn't take great mental powers to remember that "tortoise" = "tank", "iron fish" = "submarine", etc.

That's rather interesting and today I learned something thanks to this thread. I guess what I don't get is HOW "Hágoónee'" came to be if there wasn't written form. I'd be more than happy to learn some more. Obviously they spoke to each other but is the word in headline just spelled out phonetically?

A lot of it is spelled out phonetically. My original family name as it appears on the Navajo tribal census (1928, I do believe) is written (by a Navajo) as "Teh-bah-heh-nez-bega", the english translation be ...


I learned something on Fark today. Thanks!
 
433 [TotalFark]
2012-11-02 01:51:21 PM  
I wouldn't know how to properly salute this man were his procession to pass.
It is good that good men live along with us.
 
2012-11-02 01:53:18 PM  

FatherChaos: This deserves a Hero tag.


Snaps to attention, salutes

Godspeed Marine, and thank you for your service.

These were real Heroes for a change, in the national diminution of the term.

Swiftly go to the lodge fires of your Grandfathers, Marine.
 
2012-11-02 01:56:32 PM  

northguineahills: I learned something on Fark today.


I always learn something on Fark.
 
2012-11-02 02:03:28 PM  

dittybopper: -The Codebreakers by David Kahn. More specific information at the link.


This is a fascinating read. Thanks, it looks like I'll be here all day.

BTW, your tip on my black-powder pistol worked. Parts are soaking in Break-Free even as we speak. So thank you for that also! :)
 
2012-11-02 02:06:39 PM  

Maud Dib:

Anyone interested in the history of the Navajos needs to read this book:

[i43.tower.com image 200x308]

"Blood and Thunder"? So.... they're orcs?

/Zugzug
 
2012-11-02 02:14:54 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: Maud Dib: Slaxl: The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.

Yeah, except for the whole frikkin' Navajo Nation.
*rollseyes.jpeg.*

Sadly enough, there are more Diné that can't speak the language than can nowadays. Though the immersion schools on the reservation are trying to save our language, and along with it a large part of our culture.


I'm a little dubious on the whole difficulty scale thing. I know it's at least partly true, but I think it gets exaggerated sometimes. 

This is subjective and anecdotal, but having learned a "Category IV language" and a "Category I language," I didn't notice that big of a difference. I suppose I should try Japanese, since that's supposedly the hardest language in the world for a native English speaker.
 
2012-11-02 02:19:34 PM  

nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?


I know almost nothing, but my Google-fu tells me that the article is wrong and there was a written form during WWII.

Perhaps someone who knows more will clarify.
 
2012-11-02 02:30:39 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: -The Codebreakers by David Kahn. More specific information at the link.

This is a fascinating read. Thanks, it looks like I'll be here all day.

BTW, your tip on my black-powder pistol worked. Parts are soaking in Break-Free even as we speak. So thank you for that also! :)


Great!

I don't like Break-Free for cleaning up black powder guns, btw. Generally I clean with either moose milk*, or plain dish soap and water, then use 3 in 1 oil or something like that afterwards for protection. Don't forget to grease the cylinder pin, and a dot of grease on the nipple threads will help you get the nipples out easier next time.

I suggest that you read that entire book. Back when I was an impressionable tween, I read that book, and that is what led me to become a 'ditty bopper' (Morse interceptor) in the Army, and a student of the history of SIGINT. I have a *VERY* well worn copy of it, that gets read very often.


*1 part water soluble oil, 10 parts water. Looks like milk. Just don't drink it.
 
2012-11-02 02:37:43 PM  

ciberido: Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: Maud Dib: Slaxl: The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.

Yeah, except for the whole frikkin' Navajo Nation.
*rollseyes.jpeg.*

Sadly enough, there are more Diné that can't speak the language than can nowadays. Though the immersion schools on the reservation are trying to save our language, and along with it a large part of our culture.

I'm a little dubious on the whole difficulty scale thing. I know it's at least partly true, but I think it gets exaggerated sometimes. 

This is subjective and anecdotal, but having learned a "Category IV language" and a "Category I language," I didn't notice that big of a difference. I suppose I should try Japanese, since that's supposedly the hardest language in the world for a native English speaker.


It isn't as much about the level of difficulty (though it is a very difficult language to learn-- Link, for instance, the written form of the number 100 is "tʼááłáhádí neeznádiin"), as it is about American cultural influence. In 1990, only about 5% of the Diné schoolchildren spoke and/or wrote the language. The percentage has increased a great deal today, though the majority of us still can not speak or read it.
 
2012-11-02 02:58:15 PM  

dittybopper: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: -The Codebreakers by David Kahn. More specific information at the link.

This is a fascinating read. Thanks, it looks like I'll be here all day.

BTW, your tip on my black-powder pistol worked. Parts are soaking in Break-Free even as we speak. So thank you for that also! :)

Great!

I don't like Break-Free for cleaning up black powder guns, btw. Generally I clean with either moose milk*, or plain dish soap and water, then use 3 in 1 oil or something like that afterwards for protection. Don't forget to grease the cylinder pin, and a dot of grease on the nipple threads will help you get the nipples out easier next time.

I suggest that you read that entire book. Back when I was an impressionable tween, I read that book, and that is what led me to become a 'ditty bopper' (Morse interceptor) in the Army, and a student of the history of SIGINT. I have a *VERY* well worn copy of it, that gets read very often.


*1 part water soluble oil, 10 parts water. Looks like milk. Just don't drink it.


I used to clean my Mosin Nagants (same deal, corrosive primer) with dish detergent in the bathtub every time I shot them. Taking off the stocks, obviously. Let them soak briefly, dry with a towel, then I'd spray them with Rem Oil.

Lately I've been lazy and just swab and spray them. I've found I was being a little too particular before, I've never found any rust being lazier with them. I think I was fussing too much over guns I've paid $100 for.
 
2012-11-02 02:59:19 PM  

ciberido: nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?

I know almost nothing, but my Google-fu tells me that the article is wrong and there was a written form during WWII.

Perhaps someone who knows more will clarify.


It's not like every native language has a lexicon and it makes it to the library of congress... and then sometimes there's more than one lexicon and they don't jive. Srsly. And good luck finding a traditional speaker to help you navigate it.  Most native languages are dying because they were intended to be passed along through necessity - orally - by your parents and siblings and cousins and aunts who will laugh at you for saying things wrong, and uncles who will tie you up in a sack in a tree for giving your elders lip.
 
2012-11-02 03:10:44 PM  

dittybopper: Generally I clean with either moose milk


I'm trying that now. I owe you a case of your favorite adult beverage.

I've always enjoyed cleaning weapons. My dad used to bring home captured Chi-com weapons and he and my brother and I would break them down and clean them up, render them inoperable and he'd use them as static displays for his Marine Corps recruiting stations. He once brought home a machine gun that no one could figure out how to break down. My 11-year-old brother figured it out.

When I was stationed in Hawaii, our entire aviation unit would go to the range en masse, and instead of having each person clean their weapon, whether it be an M-16, M-60, or .38 revolver (air crews) they would assign a detail of 10 people or so to clean all the weapons. I always volunteered for it, as we made a party of it, and I'd get the next day off. I got damn good at it.

My hometown museum had a Japanese Type 92 Heavy machine gun that the local sheriffs had confiscated from some World War II veteran's front yard. No one knew what it was, so I volunteered to research it and got permission to clean and restore it. Supposedly, the sheriff's department had rendered it inoperative. I broke it down, cleaned it up, and the only thing that rendered it inop was a lack of bullets. Damned thing almost rendered ME inop, when I took the buttplate off and a coiled spring and steel rod flew out and stuck in the wall behind me. This is what the gun looked like:

www.imfdb.org

It was strip-fed, and could feed from either side, like a .50 cal.



Once again, thanks for the reading material and the advice. I hope to return the favor someday.
 
2012-11-02 03:26:02 PM  
If the sheriff's office took it (legally, they would have had to have used ATF form 10, supposing this was after the 1968 amnesty,) they wouldn't have had to have made it inoperable.
 
2012-11-02 03:39:51 PM  

topcon: If the sheriff's office took it (legally, they would have had to have used ATF form 10, supposing this was after the 1968 amnesty,) they wouldn't have had to have made it inoperable.


I have no idea when they confiscated it, I just know that the museum was under the impression that it was rendered inop. My assumption is that the sheriff's department figured that no one was going to try it, so why bother. The ammunition is 7.7mm, which is readily available, so the only thing lacking was the strips that fed it into the gun. Anyway, I did not reinstall the recoil spring, but gave it to the museum director, rendering it inop, as it had an open-bolt firing mechanism unlike the closed-bolt action of the .50 cal Browning.
 
2012-11-02 03:45:45 PM  
Well, neat story, anyway.

Would have been pretty nice for the guy's family if it had been properly registered, I imagine it'd be worth quite a bit as most such WW2 MGs are.
 
2012-11-02 04:05:59 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: dittybopper: Generally I clean with either moose milk

I'm trying that now. I owe you a case of your favorite adult beverage.


Actually, you owe it to my father. What I know is a pale shadow of his knowledge. Every question you've asked is one that either he's showed me.

I sended you an email with more info.
 
2012-11-02 09:27:00 PM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: I suppose I should try Japanese, since that's supposedly the hardest language in the world for a native English speaker.


Nah. Spoken Japanese is structurally simple and regular. Pronunciation is actually phonetic for the most part with regional accents bending the "standard rules".

Like any language, common verbs contain most of the exceptions to rules. The written language is hard in a sense until you realize that in western languages we stop looking at letters as we read we look at the whole word as a unit so we're kind of doing the same thing as ideographical (e.g. Japanese and Chinese) languages have a larger character set. I took Japanese in 6th grade on weekends and used to know all my kana (the two x 72-ish phonetic characters sets) and can still sound out words which use them, but I know only a handful of the 2000+ kanji characters.

English is a bastardized (although flexible) language with grossly irregular spellings and exceptions make it truly hard to master. I never make fun of someone's heavy accent or stumbling with it if it's not their native language because I feel sorry for them. Being tossed into the deep end of the pool into another language myself as an adult is a humbling experience.
 
2012-11-03 11:31:42 AM  

Lets talk frankly about internal cleanliness: Maud Dib: Slaxl: The beauty of the headline is there's almost no one left to check the grammar.

Yeah, except for the whole frikkin' Navajo Nation.
*rollseyes.jpeg.*

Sadly enough, there are more Diné that can't speak the language than can nowadays. Though the immersion schools on the reservation are trying to save our language, and along with it a large part of our culture.

/Diné
//can't speak or read the language



Interesting how things come full circle. During the native persecution years, immersion schools were used to squash out native languages, now immersion is being used to save them.

And it wasn't just in North America. "Rabbit Proof Fence" is a spectacular movie that showcases the Australian efforts to breed Aboriginals out of existence in the early 1900s, and three brave girls' fight against it.

Amazaing how
 
2012-11-03 07:47:04 PM  

nbrfwhoooo: it was almost impossible for a non-Navajo to learn and had no written form.

I am going to have to plead ignorance on several counts here. Did they send their messages by radio only? Also, if there is no written form, how did subby write the headline?


Navajo didn't have a standardized orthography (writing system) until about 1970. It was possible to write it down, but it wasn't standardized/uniform until years later. I hope that helps!
 
2012-11-03 10:54:27 PM  
Hadoken
 
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