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(Reason Magazine)   Obama supporters are interviewed about Mitt Romney's policies on surveillance, detention, and kill lists...then they find out Obama has endorsed those policies too. Their reaction? Just watch   (reason.com) divider line 250
    More: Dumbass, Mitt Romney, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, make excuses, Burning Man, Dear Leader, child custody  
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3079 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Nov 2012 at 2:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-02 01:09:48 PM  

Lionel Mandrake: You're statement was very clear. And very bullshiat.


You keep telling yourself that there's a big difference between the 2 parties.
 
2012-11-02 01:17:24 PM  

vinniethepoo: So, JohnnyC and Magruda, tell me just how a 3rd party president would be able to work with, and get cooperation from to get things done, a majority Republican or Democratic congress? I've yet to see any 3rd party running any viable congressional candidates in the various states. Even with a pretty much mixed R&D you'd see bipartisanship up the ying-yang as both sides united to play whack-a-mole on the upstart.


I guess you didn't notice that I said this:

JohnnyC: No... it continues because 3rd parties are so weak they can barely get elected to low level local governmental positions and haven't proved that they can be trusted with a high level elected position at all...


Along with a bit more in that particular post. Yeah, I did say I encourage any Republican leaning voters to vote for Gary Johnson. I'm 99.5% sure that Obama is going to win. I would like to improve that to 99.9% in the next few days. Encouraging a few Republicans leaning voters go Gary Johnson's way is alright by me. However, voting for a 3rd party candidate for President right now is symbolic.
 
2012-11-02 01:32:53 PM  

slayer199: Lionel Mandrake: You're statement was very clear. And very bullshiat.

You keep telling yourself that there's a big difference between the 2 parties.


No kidding. The denial in this thread reeks like putrid old moldy butter.

militantlibertarian.org
 
2012-11-02 01:45:51 PM  

Deftoons: Yes, because Libertarians are just like Republicans.*

*=sarcasm.


They're tooootally different, which is why all Libertarian candidates for president have been ex-Republicans, and the most prominent Libertarian in American is Republican Ron Paul.

They're as different as "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby."
 
2012-11-02 02:02:27 PM  

Deftoons: HeartBurnKid: Deftoons: The Third Man: So, vote Republican obviously.

How about voting for Gary Johnson? If these issues are a priority, of course.

So, vote Other Republican.

Yes, because Libertarians are just like Republicans.*

*=sarcasm.


They nominated a Republican, didn't they?
 
2012-11-02 02:04:38 PM  

slayer199: HeartBurnKid: Hey, I'm not saying he's a bad guy. I remember quite liking him in the GOP primary debates, because he didn't behave like the typical GOP know-it-all know-nothing and actually acknowledged that some government spending may have benefits (if only implicitly, in his talk of using cost-benefit analysis to determine where to target spending cuts). But if you're going to trumpet how all Republicans are evil and all Democrats are just as evil, it'd help if you didn't rely on Republican leftovers as your standard-bearers.

The point I was making is that Johnson has been much more Libertarian and Republican. Unlike Bob Barr and unlike RON PAUL, Johnson has more libertarian cred than either.


Yeah, he does. But he's still a Republican, so if you're going to tell me about how the Republicans are rotten to the core, it'd help if you weren't throwing your weight behind one.
 
2012-11-02 02:05:16 PM  
Still campaigning on the 'I'm the same as Obama, just one (minor) difference, you guess what it is!' platform, I see...
 
2012-11-02 02:25:05 PM  

HeartBurnKid: Yeah, he does. But he's still a Republican, so if you're going to tell me about how the Republicans are rotten to the core, it'd help if you weren't throwing your weight behind one.


I'd tend to agree with you if he hadn't followed libertarian philosophies while in office (much more so than Republican philosophies). He did so despite the fact that it pissed off members of GOP. Huge difference between voting records withi a guy that is a libertarian that was a member of the GOP and a guy like Bob Barr who was a Republican that ran as a Libertarian in 2008.

/hated Bob Barr
//wrote-in in Gary Nolan
 
2012-11-02 03:02:07 PM  

Krymson Tyde: So some voters are uneducated? The hell you say!


Or, you know, human beings.

Obama sucks ass on national security. He's very right-wing and willing to do a lot of highly immoral shiat. But you know what he's not doing? Destroying the entire economy of the planet. Or instituting legal precedent for creating laws based on the Bible. Or starting a war with Iran. Or any of the many, many things Romney would be pressured into doing.

We'll put up with Obama not being perfect, because option B is starting to turn into a fascist party. And no, fascism is not a slang term for 'Nazi', it is an actual word with actual meanings, and yes, it is exactly as bad as people say it is.
 
2012-11-02 03:23:50 PM  

a_room_with_a_moose: Triumph: Mrbogey: or don't vote as a lot of dems have apparently decided to do.

If you vote, you have no right to complain.

If you DON'T vote, you have no right to complain.


Know how I can tell you didn't click the link?
 
2012-11-02 03:32:42 PM  
I do not like Romney. I liked Obama when I thought he was a force to reverse the erosion of our bill of rights and an advocate for a reduction of the police state. He has done neither. Pragmatists want to claim that because I am not going to vote out of principle that I am throwing away the opportunity to keep Romney away from making things worse.

The flip side is, Im not voting for either side, as I fully reject the police state, the preemptive unilateral prevention doctrine (drone strikes) and the continuation of a failed economic policy that allows the federal reserve to uphold its "dual mandate" charade.

I have heard some good arguments in this thread, but they all tack towards pragmatism, which smacks of moral relativism, and therefore I will keep my principles intact by not participating. Even voting for Gary Johnson would still be advocating the entire system, which has gone sideways and makes very little sense coming from a standpoint that personal autonomy is and has been compromised.

tl;dr i agree with our dearly departed George Carlin.
 
2012-11-02 03:46:06 PM  

momentous: the preemptive unilateral prevention doctrine (drone strikes)


SOMEONE jerked it to infowars in the last fifteen minutes
 
2012-11-02 04:16:05 PM  

Magruda: . I am not making the case


You're not making any case. You're trolling.
 
2012-11-02 04:20:10 PM  

Magruda: vinniethepoo: But since this isn't happening any time soon, it still seems like you're wasting your vote.

And again i refer back to the Alice Walker quote.


Which is vague bullshiat, like everything else you're saying. You're not even voting third party, you're just conspiracy theory roommate. fark off.
 
2012-11-02 04:31:43 PM  

Hydra: I_Hate_Iowa: And Romney supporters wear shirts like this. Stupid people occupy all positions on the political spectrum. However, I will still never support Romney.

[ayannanahmias.files.wordpress.com image 371x350]

Because buttons like these are so much better?

[rlv.zcache.com image 400x400]

/wait, I forgot, this is Fark-both sides are bad, so vote Democrat


How dare Obama steal Herman Cain's campaign slogans!

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-02 04:34:20 PM  
Obama made some token efforts and even managed to shift some of those things from the Dubya days, every move was met with ten thousand screaming conservatives whimpering and blubbering about "unreasonable" and "Crazy" Obama just not UNDERSTANDING how dangerous these dangerous, dangerous super-terrorists were.

And these whimpering blubbering assholes grabbed more seats in 2010 as the teabaggers voted for cowards over men in every election they could.

End of story.
 
2012-11-02 04:44:45 PM  

TheBigJerk: Obama made some token efforts and even managed to shift some of those things from the Dubya days, every move was met with ten thousand screaming conservatives whimpering and blubbering about "unreasonable" and "Crazy" Obama just not UNDERSTANDING how dangerous these dangerous, dangerous super-terrorists were.

And these whimpering blubbering assholes grabbed more seats in 2010 as the teabaggers voted for cowards over men in every election they could.

End of story.


I'm going to call total bullshiat.

He had enough of a majority in the House and Senate to get the HCRA passed, but not enough to change the other things he promised? That also doesn't excuse him for going back on his promise using federal resources to go after medical marijuana clinics. Or anything in TFA for that matter.

Keep telling yourself that he's different.
 
2012-11-02 04:46:11 PM  

EyeballKid: They're tooootally different, which is why all Libertarian candidates for president have been ex-Republicans, and the most prominent Libertarian in American is Republican Ron Paul.

They're as different as "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby."


Ron Paul is NOT a libertarian. He is a Republican that leans libertarian.
 
2012-11-02 04:50:35 PM  

slayer199: EyeballKid: They're tooootally different, which is why all Libertarian candidates for president have been ex-Republicans, and the most prominent Libertarian in American is Republican Ron Paul.

They're as different as "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby."

Ron Paul is NOT a libertarian. He is a Republican that leans libertarian.


So he's no TRUE Scotsman libertarian?
 
2012-11-02 05:07:24 PM  

kingoomieiii: It's fine to disagree with ObamaRomney on that shiat, but if you think any of it will get better under RomneyObama, you're not paying attention.


So vote Bull Moose
 
2012-11-02 05:17:44 PM  

Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: Triumph: Mrbogey: or don't vote as a lot of dems have apparently decided to do.

If you vote, you have no right to complain.

If you DON'T vote, you have no right to complain.

Know how I can tell you didn't click the link?


Do you want to know how to tell I don't give a fark?

People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results, link or no link.
 
2012-11-02 05:31:43 PM  

moothemagiccow: You're not even voting third party, you're just conspiracy theory roommate.


How do you know that? I just said i wasn't advocating for one. I am however voting. And what farking conspiracy are you talking about? All you are doing is throwing insults.
 
2012-11-02 05:51:16 PM  
Reason farking blows
 
2012-11-02 06:27:52 PM  

a_room_with_a_moose: People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results,


No, people who participate in a farce, should not biatch about the farce.
 
2012-11-02 06:37:30 PM  

Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results,

No, people who participate in a farce, should not biatch about the farce.


So don't vote and shut up. Apathy never fixed a thing,

This tired old adage that the two main candidates are exactly the same has no basis in fact.
 
2012-11-02 06:40:10 PM  

Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results,

No, people who participate in a farce, should not biatch about the farce.


Hate to tell you this, pal, but, simply by virtue of you living here, you're participating.
 
2012-11-02 07:19:13 PM  

Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results,

No, people who participate in a farce, should not biatch about the farce.


What if the farce is the people who biatch about the farce?
 
2012-11-02 07:26:19 PM  

jigger: andrewagill: the site the dude mentions, wearechange.org, is a Gary Johnson blog. Looks kinda official.

Um, no. Unless you mean they support Gary Johnson. But it looks like they also support Jill Stein.

They started out as a 9/11 Truther, Anti-"NWO" activist organization, but it appears that they've moved from that into more mainstream, albeit, third party politics. Or at least they are opposed to the corporate establishment and favor more independent candidates.


I still stand by the fact that it *LOOKS* kinda official, though clearly based on what you are saying, it is not.
 
2012-11-02 07:35:55 PM  

a_room_with_a_moose: This tired old adage that the two main candidates are exactly the same has no basis in fact.


Crooks with slightly different ideologies. Not quite a Hobson's choice, but close enough. More like Coke and Pepsi.
 
2012-11-02 08:03:02 PM  

Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: This tired old adage that the two main candidates are exactly the same has no basis in fact.

Crooks with slightly different ideologies. Not quite a Hobson's choice, but close enough. More like Coke and Pepsi.


BSABSVR.
 
2012-11-02 08:20:39 PM  

a_room_with_a_moose: Triumph: a_room_with_a_moose: People that don't participate in the political process should not biatch about the results,

No, people who participate in a farce, should not biatch about the farce.

So don't vote and shut up. Apathy never fixed a thing,

This tired old adage that the two main candidates are exactly the same has no basis in fact.


Take a look at Romney and Obama's larger corporate sponsors (read: Goldman Sachs and other banking firms) and try typing that again without looking like the most gullible voter on the planet.
 
2012-11-02 08:23:08 PM  

EyeballKid: Deftoons: Yes, because Libertarians are just like Republicans.*

*=sarcasm.

They're tooootally different, which is why all Libertarian candidates for president have been ex-Republicans, and the most prominent Libertarian in American is Republican Ron Paul.

They're as different as "Under Pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby."


Yeah because most card-holding Republicans toooootally want to legalize drugs, gay marriage, abortion and end the war on terror, end torture, and abolish the Patriot Act.

Mmmhmmmm.
 
2012-11-02 08:29:01 PM  

Deftoons: Yeah because most card-holding Republicans toooootally want to legalize drugs, gay marriage, abortion and end the war on terror, end torture, and abolish the Patriot Act.


So you're for Gary Johnson? How do you feel about Rocky Anderson?
 
2012-11-02 08:36:44 PM  

Deftoons: Take a look at Romney and Obama's larger corporate sponsors (read: Goldman Sachs and other banking firms) and try typing that again without looking like the most gullible voter on the planet.


They are nothing alike, Romney and Obama. Only an ignoramusdeep thinking rugged individualist would think that because their biggest sponsors are also the groups with the most money, they are by default interchangeable people.
 
2012-11-02 08:42:16 PM  

thamike: Deftoons: Take a look at Romney and Obama's larger corporate sponsors (read: Goldman Sachs and other banking firms) and try typing that again without looking like the most gullible voter on the planet.

They are nothing alike, Romney and Obama. Only an ignoramusdeep thinking rugged individualist would think that because their biggest sponsors are also the groups with the most money, they are by default interchangeable people.


So which one is against the drug war? Which one is against rendition? Which one is against drone strikes? Which one is against to big to fail? which one is against the patriot act? Or do they hold the same position on these very important issues?
 
2012-11-02 11:26:53 PM  

Magruda: Deftoons: Yeah because most card-holding Republicans toooootally want to legalize drugs, gay marriage, abortion and end the war on terror, end torture, and abolish the Patriot Act.

So you're for Gary Johnson? How do you feel about Rocky Anderson?


JILL STEIN!!!
 
2012-11-03 12:37:24 AM  

GAT_00: slayer199: The Third Man: So, vote Republican obviously.

No, vote for neither party. The point is there's little real difference between the 2 other than rhetoric.

I like how you say they are the same and prove it by saying they're different. It's real convincing. Also that trying to save SS is clearly the same as privatizing it, they're definitely the same. The endless stream of Republicans saying both sides are the same continues. Mostly because no Democrat is dumb enough to say something like that.


You can't read, so vote Democrat?
 
2012-11-03 08:46:41 AM  

Magruda: So which one is against the drug war? Which one is against rendition? Which one is against drone strikes? Which one is against to big to fail? which one is against the patriot act? Or do they hold the same position on these very important issues?


They might be important for you to be against, but not for everybody. And no, they don't hold the same position on these "very important" issues. The problem with your question is that we have absolutely no idea what position Romney holds now or will hold later on any of them.

If I were to guess, though, I'd say Romney wants to ramp up the drug war, is too busy planning how to pick a war with Russia to worry about flying robots, thinks nothing is too big to fail yet is entirely in the pocket of Big Shady Business, and knows about as much about the PATRIOT Act as you do and cares much less.
 
2012-11-03 09:58:12 AM  

thamike: Magruda: So which one is against the drug war? Which one is against rendition? Which one is against drone strikes? Which one is against to big to fail? which one is against the patriot act? Or do they hold the same position on these very important issues?

They might be important for you to be against, but not for everybody. And no, they don't hold the same position on these "very important" issues. The problem with your question is that we have absolutely no idea what position Romney holds now or will hold later on any of them.

If I were to guess, though, I'd say Romney wants to ramp up the drug war, is too busy planning how to pick a war with Russia to worry about flying robots, thinks nothing is too big to fail yet is entirely in the pocket of Big Shady Business, and knows about as much about the PATRIOT Act as you do and cares much less.


You didn't watch the last debate did you? S'ok, you can't be expected to follow grownup talk.
 
2012-11-03 10:45:10 AM  

burning_bridge: GoSlash27


You don't know? Really?
If you can't figure it out, then you're precisely the kind of person the video is making a point about.

Here it is: Partisanship skews people's priorities.
It's the reason that the left didn't rise up in protest when Obama expanded the war in Afghanistan, extended the NDAA, expanded Gitmo, and ramped up the policy of drone strikes and extrajudicial killing of American citizens.
Lefties supposedly hate that stuff, but kept their mouths shut because "it's Obama".

And both sides are guilty of it. It's why nobody on the right called out Dubya for ballooning the Federal deficit, or bailing out Wall Street, or engaging in his campaign of "nation building".
It's why none of them point out that Romney's budget is just as imbalanced as Obama's, or that he's planning on another wave of stimulus, or even that he isn't competitive in this race and never has been.

Partisanship can be useful, but when carried to extremes it causes us to turn a blind eye to policies we disapprove of, causes us to fight over differences that aren't actually there, and makes our candidates uniformly shiatty.

*That's* what the point of the exercise was.
 
2012-11-03 11:30:00 AM  

Magruda: You didn't watch the last debate did you? S'ok, you can't be expected to follow grownup talk.


"Grownup talk?"
 
2012-11-03 12:34:50 PM  

thamike: "Grownup talk?"


It's what happens after you are put down for your nap.
 
2012-11-03 12:51:07 PM  

Magruda: thamike: "Grownup talk?"

It's what happens after you are put down for your nap.


I thought "grownup" was a word children used for "adult." Anyway, I'm not sure how what I said put you on the defense like that.
 
2012-11-03 12:59:34 PM  

GoSlash27: You don't know? Really?
If you can't figure it out, then you're precisely the kind of person the video is making a point about.

Here it is: Partisanship skews people's priorities.
It's the reason that the left didn't rise up in protest when Obama expanded the war in Afghanistan, extended the NDAA, expanded Gitmo, and ramped up the policy of drone strikes and extrajudicial killing of American citizens.
Lefties supposedly hate that stuff, but kept their mouths shut because "it's Obama".

And both sides are guilty of it. It's why nobody on the right called out Dubya for ballooning the Federal deficit, or bailing out Wall Street, or engaging in his campaign of "nation building".
It's why none of them point out that Romney's budget is just as imbalanced as Obama's, or that he's planning on another wave of stimulus, or even that he isn't competitive in this race and never has been.

Partisanship can be useful, but when carried to extremes it causes us to turn a blind eye to policies we disapprove of, causes us to fight over differences that aren't actually there, and makes our candidates uniformly shiatty.

*That's* what the point of the exercise was.


Well said.
 
2012-11-03 01:06:32 PM  

thamike: I thought "grownup" was a word children used for "adult."


I was atempting to communicate in terms you would undersand.

thamike: Anyway, I'm not sure how what I said put you on the defense like that.


First off I'm on offense, second

thamike: and knows about as much about the PATRIOT Act as you do and cares much less.


You feigned knowledge on a subject you clearly demostrated that you don't know anything about. The most easy to point out is this:

thamike: is too busy planning how to pick a war with Russia to worry about flying robots,


Romney has a clear stance on drone strikes and if you had watched the debate with any semblance of understanding you'd know that.

That you feel habias corpus, civil liberties, and international law take a backseat to red meat wedge issues again justifies my disdain towards your attempt at intellectual engagement.
 
2012-11-03 01:17:37 PM  

Magruda: First off I'm on offense, second


Being offended isn't the same as being on the offense. You're pissed for some reason.

Magruda: That you feel habias corpus, civil liberties, and international law take a backseat to red meat wedge issues again justifies my disdain towards your attempt at intellectual engagement.


None of those take a backseat to "red meat wedge issues." And histrionics isn't the way to engage me intellectually. Romney has flipped his positions or otherwise made his stance on things purposefully nebulous. At this point, his stance on drone strikes is ephemeral at best, and really doesn't take a front seat in my reason for not wanting him to be in any position of political power ever again. Personally, I'm fine with precision strikes against security threats. Habeas corpus, civil liberties and international law don't factor into those. Yes, the practice is not perfect, and yes I am disappointed when a wedding party gets blown to pieces just because one of Al Qaeda's couriers was in attendance. I don't, however, use the violence to demonize Obama, who is doing his best not to f*ck things up further than they already are. And If you're trying to pull the Al-Awlaki citizen canard, save it, as I have even less interest in the bloviating wall of text you probably save for such occasions.
 
2012-11-03 01:34:05 PM  

thamike: Romney has flipped his positions or otherwise made his stance on things purposefully nebulous. At this point, his stance on drone strikes is ephemeral at best,


He has never wavered on the issue of drone strikes and nothing indicates that he would. He has had about as much change in this topic as he has with his stance on Israel.

thamike: Personally, I'm fine with precision strikes against security threats. Habeas corpus, civil liberties and international law don't factor into those.


The UN rapporteur says they are in breach of the UN charter of which the US is a signator making it US law. CCR, ACLU and Human Rights Watch have all filed suit.

thamike: I don't, however, use the violence to demonize Obama, who is doing his best not to f*ck things up further than they already are. And If you're trying to pull the Al-Awlaki citizen canard, save it, as I have even less interest in the bloviating wall of text you probably save for such occasions.


So basically this is religion for you and none of it will bother you until a Repub is in office at which point you'll pick up your picket signs again... got it.
 
2012-11-03 01:45:17 PM  
You must realize that this is boring, right? You are appealing to someone who just isn't as animated about what you are animated about. I'm no extremist, and I have never picketed anything. I simply think Obama is a good president and I am voting for him again. If this drives you up the wall, it's unfortunate, but I really can't take responsibility for that. "Both sides are equally bad," in my opinion is a lazy cop-out, but I'm really not upset at those who think like that, even if they're voting a third party that has neither interest in, nor a plan for, abandoning drone strikes. Drone strikes and special forces raids are the better alternative to full scale invasion and it seriously damages Al-Qaeda's morale. If you have another workable plan, go for it. Write the president, write your congressman. I'll vote my way, you'll vote yours.
 
2012-11-03 01:48:50 PM  

thamike: If this drives you up the wall, it's unfortunate, but I really can't take responsibility for that.


It does not drive me up the wall, i relegate it to the same catagory i place creationists and flat earthers.
 
2012-11-03 01:51:41 PM  

Magruda: thamike: If this drives you up the wall, it's unfortunate, but I really can't take responsibility for that.

It does not drive me up the wall, i relegate it to the same catagory i place creationists and flat earthers.


Fair enough.
 
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