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(Some Guy)   Ohio Secretary of State, does an end run around Ohio election law and has "experimental" software patches installed on vote counting tabulators in up to 39 Ohio counties. I'm sure it's nothing though   (freepress.org ) divider line
    More: Scary, Ohio Secretary of State, Ohio Counties, end runs, Ohio, software patch, election law, Jon Husted, election system  
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4501 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Nov 2012 at 3:12 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-01 11:36:38 AM  
I'm sure it's a simple algorithm...add 2 for every vote for Romney.
 
2012-11-01 11:43:54 AM  
Well, this would help to explain Romney's confidence despite ALL EVIDENCE.
 
2012-11-01 12:08:02 PM  
Honestly, everyone who votes, because, at some point, the votes is electronically stored somewhere, should get a "voter receipt" with a unique # on it, that doesn't identify you per se, it is just a number that identifies your ballot.

You should be able to go online after the fact then and pull up your ballot online, and see that the results match up.

If we don't have that across the board, we are basically just 'trusting' the system.

/I know, it's been that way for 200 years, just "trusting" it, but, we have better technology now folks.
//also, obviously, someone can add up however they want from the raw data, but, hopefully we have trustworthy monitors of how it is calculated.
 
2012-11-01 12:10:09 PM  

dletter: Honestly, everyone who votes, because, at some point, the votes is electronically stored somewhere, should get a "voter receipt" with a unique # on it, that doesn't identify you per se, it is just a number that identifies your ballot.

You should be able to go online after the fact then and pull up your ballot online, and see that the results match up.

If we don't have that across the board, we are basically just 'trusting' the system.

/I know, it's been that way for 200 years, just "trusting" it, but, we have better technology now folks.
//also, obviously, someone can add up however they want from the raw data, but, hopefully we have trustworthy monitors of how it is calculated.


Agreed
 
2012-11-01 12:12:48 PM  
Slot machines are more trustworthy.
 
2012-11-01 12:12:50 PM  

cpw49684: I'm sure it's a simple algorithm...add 2 for every vote for Romney.


And who says Republicans hate Math....
 
2012-11-01 12:15:26 PM  
I can't wait to hear the pundits wringing their hands again this election, wondering why the exit polls could be so flawed.

Helpful hint: the exit polls are correct.
 
2012-11-01 12:20:04 PM  
What IS it with Ohio electing Secretaries of State that are nothing more than corrupt, partisan douchenozzles?
 
2012-11-01 12:22:05 PM  
 
2012-11-01 12:24:54 PM  
Send in the UN monitors.

Its curious how desperate Republicans are getting to try to steal this election.

Lets hope they can't.

On the other hand, it happened in 1960 for Kennedy, so anything's possible right.
 
2012-11-01 12:29:40 PM  
why are private, for-profit companies allowed to manufacture voting machines? they should be manufactured, maintained, and stored securely by a nonpartisan government agency like the bureau of engraving and printing.

voting is the most sacred thing we do as americans. why the fark is it not secure and consistent throughout all 50 states?

harumph!
 
2012-11-01 12:36:58 PM  
The solution is quite simple: Pass a federal law mandating that all source code on any electronic voting machine or tabulator be made public prior to any election in which it is used.
 
2012-11-01 12:38:31 PM  
i249.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-01 12:42:05 PM  
I'm not a fan of a lot of these kinds of voting machines, but this website looks a bit suspicious to me.

doyner: The solution is quite simple: Pass a federal law mandating that all source code on any electronic voting machine or tabulator be made public prior to any election in which it is used.


I would agree, but I dunno how the hell we'd know the released and actual code were the same anyway.
 
2012-11-01 12:42:07 PM  

give me doughnuts: Slot machines are more trustworthy.


Word 

i75.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-01 12:42:49 PM  
Arg, you beat me to your own image doughnuts! :)
 
2012-11-01 12:48:26 PM  

Relatively Obscure: I'm not a fan of a lot of these kinds of voting machines, but this website looks a bit suspicious to me.

doyner: The solution is quite simple: Pass a federal law mandating that all source code on any electronic voting machine or tabulator be made public prior to any election in which it is used.

I would agree, but I dunno how the hell we'd know the released and actual code were the same anyway.


See: Slot machine.jpg posted twice above...
 
2012-11-01 12:49:09 PM  
As much as I know SoS Husted would do anything to throw this election to Romney, is there a source for this more reputable than FreePress.org? I hesitate to base my panic on a group that has a Department of Hemp.
 
2012-11-01 12:49:11 PM  
50 laboratories of voting innovation.
 
2012-11-01 12:52:03 PM  

doyner: Relatively Obscure: I'm not a fan of a lot of these kinds of voting machines, but this website looks a bit suspicious to me.

doyner: The solution is quite simple: Pass a federal law mandating that all source code on any electronic voting machine or tabulator be made public prior to any election in which it is used.

I would agree, but I dunno how the hell we'd know the released and actual code were the same anyway.

See: Slot machine.jpg posted twice above...


Hey, if it'd work, great. I'm all for it.
 
2012-11-01 01:05:24 PM  
Yeah, that doesn't smell fishy at all.
 
2012-11-01 01:06:05 PM  
That Secretary of State is a slimeball. There are some worse county ones, as per TRMS, but still that state guy is borderline evil.

If a Democrat acted like that, I would vote against them in a heartbeat.
 
2012-11-01 01:07:24 PM  

doyner: The solution is quite simple: Pass a federal law mandating that all source code on any electronic voting machine or tabulator be made public prior to any election in which it is used.


But then competitors could steal the code!!!

Well, except that stolen code is easy to detect if everybody has to release their source code.

And it's a farking voting machine. It doesn't take cutting edge algorithms to make a multiple-choice dialog box.
 
2012-11-01 01:09:58 PM  

dletter: Honestly, everyone who votes, because, at some point, the votes is electronically stored somewhere, should get a "voter receipt" with a unique # on it, that doesn't identify you per se, it is just a number that identifies your ballot.

You should be able to go online after the fact then and pull up your ballot online, and see that the results match up.

If we don't have that across the board, we are basically just 'trusting' the system.

/I know, it's been that way for 200 years, just "trusting" it, but, we have better technology now folks.
//also, obviously, someone can add up however they want from the raw data, but, hopefully we have trustworthy monitors of how it is calculated.


I've suggested this before but I've modified it. They should get a receipt with a code but not one which you can check on-line. Because that could encourage vote buying. The code verifying the nature of your vote should be a simple sequential codes displayed on a screen which you can write down on whatever and keep.

A person wanting to buy your vote. Could only buy a piece a paper with a number on it that you could have quickly invented and checked on-line to make sure it was a GOP/Liberal vote. It would have no value to a "vote" buyer.

The receipt with the authenticating code would not be something anyone other than a election authority could verify if there was a challenge to the election results.

Vote results would be released on a website or downloadable as a table with all the "displayed" codes. Satisfying most voters and preventing any possibility of vote buying. In case of perceived funny business, the actual receipt/authenticating code with the voters written record of the displayed code could be validated by authorities if necessary.
 
2012-11-01 01:16:38 PM  
Seriously though tabulation is as complicated as an if-then statement.

if (vote = Romney) Romney = Romney +1;

etc etc. The proprietary software is only about GUI, the tabulation algorithm is probably 0.001% of the entire length of the code. Installing an experimental tabulation software just absolutely horrifyingly reeks suspicious intent.

My primary concern is that electronic voting machines don't even have a ballot to feed in. So there's no way of performing a recount. In the increasingly likely outcome of vote tampering suspicions, how are they going to verify who actually voted for who?

I only hope that, if the tabulation has been tampered with, that they misplace a decimal showing 99% of votes going to Romney. Motherfarker would be run out of town along with that SoS.
 
2012-11-01 01:21:25 PM  

Elandriel: if (vote = Romney) Romney = Romney +1;


If(vote = Obama) Romney = Romney + 2
 
2012-11-01 01:40:53 PM  

Elandriel: Seriously though tabulation is as complicated as an if-then statement.

if (vote = Romney) Romney = Romney +1;

etc etc. The proprietary software is only about GUI, the tabulation algorithm is probably 0.001% of the entire length of the code. Installing an experimental tabulation software just absolutely horrifyingly reeks suspicious intent.

My primary concern is that electronic voting machines don't even have a ballot to feed in. So there's no way of performing a recount. In the increasingly likely outcome of vote tampering suspicions, how are they going to verify who actually voted for who?

I only hope that, if the tabulation has been tampered with, that they misplace a decimal showing 99% of votes going to Romney. Motherfarker would be run out of town along with that SoS.


The worst part about it is that you could probably very easily have your software delete the malicious lines of code right after the final tabulation occurs.

This whole thing smells bad.
 
2012-11-01 01:41:48 PM  

dletter: You should be able to go online after the fact then and pull up your ballot online, and see that the results match up.


That's a great start, but not enough.
Every individual checks their vote. It is correct.
But the assholes behind the scenes dont have to actually be adding the ballots up correctly.
Sigh.

So we need this online check, to check that your ballot was recorded correctly.
And we need a damn paper trail, so that we can physically count the damn pieces of paper.

/sigh
 
2012-11-01 01:43:35 PM  

Elandriel: My primary concern is that electronic voting machines don't even have a ballot to feed in. So there's no way of performing a recount. In the increasingly likely outcome of vote tampering suspicions, how are they going to verify who actually voted for who?


There is NO method for a recount. NONE.
You can not have a democracy without fair and open elections.
So glad that I live in a state with paper ballots.
 
2012-11-01 01:44:02 PM  
Yeah, there's a reason I don't expect honest votes from any Republican-controlled state.
 
2012-11-01 01:48:10 PM  
The machines in Franklin County are touchscreens with a paper trail that writes every time you touch the screen. Granted you can hack them with a magnet and something with an infrared port, either faking votes in the machine itself or be configured to attack the home network when the night is over, but there is a paper trail barring either of those options.
 
2012-11-01 01:49:20 PM  

bdub77: Elandriel: Seriously though tabulation is as complicated as an if-then statement.

if (vote = Romney) Romney = Romney +1;

etc etc. The proprietary software is only about GUI, the tabulation algorithm is probably 0.001% of the entire length of the code. Installing an experimental tabulation software just absolutely horrifyingly reeks suspicious intent.

My primary concern is that electronic voting machines don't even have a ballot to feed in. So there's no way of performing a recount. In the increasingly likely outcome of vote tampering suspicions, how are they going to verify who actually voted for who?

I only hope that, if the tabulation has been tampered with, that they misplace a decimal showing 99% of votes going to Romney. Motherfarker would be run out of town along with that SoS.

The worst part about it is that you could probably very easily have your software delete the malicious lines of code right after the final tabulation occurs.

This whole thing smells bad.


Ehhh, if it is compiled code, and the original uncompiled code is not on those systems (which it would have no reason to be), nothing could really "remove" lines of code at that point... either the build perfectly matches the original build that matches the code, or it doesn't. Kind of like the examples above with slot machines comparing chips.... if the chips don't exactly match, something is "up", and they investigate.
 
2012-11-01 01:54:42 PM  

dletter: bdub77: Elandriel: Seriously though tabulation is as complicated as an if-then statement.

if (vote = Romney) Romney = Romney +1;

etc etc. The proprietary software is only about GUI, the tabulation algorithm is probably 0.001% of the entire length of the code. Installing an experimental tabulation software just absolutely horrifyingly reeks suspicious intent.

My primary concern is that electronic voting machines don't even have a ballot to feed in. So there's no way of performing a recount. In the increasingly likely outcome of vote tampering suspicions, how are they going to verify who actually voted for who?

I only hope that, if the tabulation has been tampered with, that they misplace a decimal showing 99% of votes going to Romney. Motherfarker would be run out of town along with that SoS.

The worst part about it is that you could probably very easily have your software delete the malicious lines of code right after the final tabulation occurs.

This whole thing smells bad.

Ehhh, if it is compiled code, and the original uncompiled code is not on those systems (which it would have no reason to be), nothing could really "remove" lines of code at that point... either the build perfectly matches the original build that matches the code, or it doesn't. Kind of like the examples above with slot machines comparing chips.... if the chips don't exactly match, something is "up", and they investigate.


Probably is compiled. Then again, since the code that was used to compile the software isn't there for all to see, we have no idea what it actually doing unless the pre-compiled code is reviewed. (And I don't believe it is independently audited.)
 
2012-11-01 01:55:31 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: but there is a paper trail barring either of those options.


SORT OF ....
The problem with a computer generated paper trail, is that the computer software can lie.
Trivially.

Untrained chimps could write this code.
And have the fraud only happen during voting hours on election day, and then erase itself.
So all the testing in the world before and after the election would be PERFECT.
So no one would have a reason to doubt the tabulated results.

Unless the results are statistically significantly different than the exit polls.
Strange. The ONLY time that exit polls and voter tally significantly differ, is when there is fraud.
 
2012-11-01 01:57:15 PM  
What I don't get is why nobody has sued the state over this in the last eight years.
 
2012-11-01 02:00:40 PM  

bdub77: Probably is compiled. Then again, since the code that was used to compile the software isn't there for all to see, we have no idea what it actually doing unless the pre-compiled code is reviewed. (And I don't believe it is independently audited.)


certainly is compiled. and seeing the pre-compiled code does not ensure that what gets loaded is what you saw. Tada, my magic compiler takes the code you saw, inserts a bunch of additional code and TADA - magic code.

Paper Ballots.
Mailed to every registered voters home 4 weeks before election day.
Ballots must be postmarked by midnight on election day.
All ballots get mailed to one central site per state.
Run by a truly independent audit firm. Kind of like the lottery people, but more trustworthy.
Make it a capital crime to tamper with the ballots or the tabulation.

/sigh - yes, you pedant, homeless people will have a separate process. yes, I know, these things will never change.
/we will probably need a massive vote fraud for scotus to fix this. the local legislatures will never fix this crap.
 
2012-11-01 02:01:44 PM  

GAT_00: What I don't get is why nobody has sued the state over this in the last eight years.


1) they need standing.
2) pretty sure there have been some attempts and some cases. I have some memory of reading about them.
3) you would think that the liberal media would be all over this
4) where the fark is the ACLU on this???
 
2012-11-01 02:02:40 PM  

GAT_00: What I don't get is why nobody has sued the state over this in the last eight years.


quick dirty search
 
2012-11-01 02:05:43 PM  

namatad: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: but there is a paper trail barring either of those options.

SORT OF ....
The problem with a computer generated paper trail, is that the computer software can lie.
Trivially.

Untrained chimps could write this code.
And have the fraud only happen during voting hours on election day, and then erase itself.
So all the testing in the world before and after the election would be PERFECT.
So no one would have a reason to doubt the tabulated results.

Unless the results are statistically significantly different than the exit polls.
Strange. The ONLY time that exit polls and voter tally significantly differ, is when there is fraud.


It would be blatantly obvious that fraud had taken place though. There are going to be thousands of people using that machine throughout the day, watching the little receipt printer jot out their votes. If it doesn't print out correctly, they get the poll worker involved and the machine is investigated. If it does print out their correct vote, but internally records a different one, the paper won't match up to the machine when they tabulate, and the machine will be investigated. The receipt is behind some plastic, so you'd have to crack it open in order to mess with it, which also would be noticeable. Fudge the internal numbers at the end of the day? Doesn't match the paper trail. Have a single vote count as two for a candidate? Won't match the paper trail.

You would need a way to both make sure that regular people using the machine doesn't draw suspicion, yet still get your desired result. I can't think of a way that you could plausibly commit fraud on these machines unless you had access to swap out the receipt spool at the end of the day for your own fraudulent one.
 
2012-11-01 02:11:15 PM  
pssst.... if obama's lead holds up in virginia, he can win even if the GOP steals ohio.
 
2012-11-01 02:13:33 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: There are going to be thousands of people using that machine throughout the day, watching the little receipt printer jot out their votes. If it doesn't print out correctly, they get the poll worker involved and the machine is investigated.


but you are completely missing the point
the print out LOOKS PERFECT
the print out is WHAT you typed in

but what is recorded internally and tabulated is different 6% of the time.
just enough to shift the numbers in Rmoney's

what percentage of the people bother to look in the first place?
bah
 
2012-11-01 02:13:58 PM  

bdub77: (And I don't believe it is independently audited.)


Agreed, that is a totally different issue... was just pointing out that it would be highly unlikely for compiled code to go from XYZ to XYQ and back to XYZ without someone re-uploading files... which then you'd have dates on them. I guess at some point, someone could be trying to totally change things at a root level of the system, but, at that point you'd be hiring close to machine language code level guys, although with what is at stake, would put nothing past them.
 
2012-11-01 02:14:04 PM  
Tougher voter ID laws would solve this problem.
 
2012-11-01 02:15:14 PM  

FlashHarry: pssst.... if obama's lead holds up in virginia, he can win even if the GOP steals ohio.


yah, was looking at that. and that is the saving grace.
ohio can be stolen and the only impact is a reduced number of final electoral votes, instead of a switch in who wins.

I can not wait until Rmoney wins the popular vote and President Obama wins the electoral vote.
The Palin-Americans will go insane. Well, more insane.
 
2012-11-01 02:16:03 PM  

BooBoo23: Tougher voter ID laws would solve this problem.


lol
sigh
you just made my day
literally laughed out loud
 
2012-11-01 02:24:55 PM  

namatad: I can not wait until Rmoney wins the popular vote and President Obama wins the electoral vote.
The Palin-Americans will go insane. Well, more insane.


there's probably a crate of Sore/Loserman t-shirts in zimbabwe we can have shipped back for them....
 
2012-11-01 02:43:45 PM  

namatad: but you are completely missing the point
the print out LOOKS PERFECT
the print out is WHAT you typed in

but what is recorded internally and tabulated is different 6% of the time.
just enough to shift the numbers in Rmoney's

what percentage of the people bother to look in the first place?
bah


But then audits would show that the internal numbers and the paper trail aren't the same, which raises a flag. I believe Ohio only audits in the case of a necessary recount, whatever that threshold is, and then hand counts the print-outs, provisional, and absentee ballots. Ohio is ranked among the top five states this cycle in best election practices, so I wouldn't be too worried.
 
2012-11-01 02:46:50 PM  

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Ohio is ranked among the top five states this cycle in best election practices, so I wouldn't be too worried.


LOL
since when? by whom?
citation??
since they fixed the problems in 2004 or since they have done everything that they could to suppress voter turnout and early voting??

yah, nothing personal, but every news story relating to voting in Ohio is rife with concern.
unless you are a republican, and then Ohio is the cats meow.
 
2012-11-01 03:01:36 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: I can't wait to hear the pundits wringing their hands again this election, wondering why the exit polls could be so flawed.

Helpful hint: the exit polls are correct.


If I am stopped by an exit poller who asks me who I voted for on Tuesday, I am planning to lie and say it was the other guy. I like throwing the media off.
 
2012-11-01 03:02:28 PM  

namatad: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: Ohio is ranked among the top five states this cycle in best election practices, so I wouldn't be too worried.

LOL
since when? by whom?
citation??
since they fixed the problems in 2004 or since they have done everything that they could to suppress voter turnout and early voting??

yah, nothing personal, but every news story relating to voting in Ohio is rife with concern.
unless you are a republican, and then Ohio is the cats meow.


The vote suppression is a different animal entirely, and a judge kept early voting open. I'm referring just to the machines and tabulation methods. Ohio is ranked highly in this regard by the Verified Voting Foundation, Common Cause, and Counting Votes 2012. It's entirely possible that things to go hell and we repeat all of the problems of earlier years, but I don't think it's that likely.
 
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