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(CNN)   Rebels accuse Syrian government of using "vacuum bombs", Megamaid unavailable for comment   (cnn.com) divider line 86
    More: Scary, opposition groups, Syrians, Sergey Lavrov, Megamaid, LCC, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, russian foreign minister, international diplomacy  
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7601 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Nov 2012 at 2:13 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-01 03:50:45 PM  

vpb: That sucks.


Unlike Megamaid and this thread, which have gone from suck to blow.
 
2012-11-01 03:55:20 PM  

madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil


Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.
 
2012-11-01 03:56:12 PM  

spelletrader: MythDragon: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

I don't see how one is worse than the other. Either way you end up dead. Kinda like how you're not supposed to target a combatant with a 120mm tank shell. Why not? It's not doing to make him any deader than the coax .50.

You'd have to ask the writers of the Geneva Convention.

But I have seen videos of FAE bombs tested against animals (required viewing at the time that I went through EOD school), and I can guarantee that it's not the way that you want to go out.


I haven't seen the actualy effects of a thermobaric, but I did get to watch the first live drop of the MOAB when I worked at Eglin. It was pretty cool.
There are very few ways I'd like to go out. Only one involves fire:
suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com
 
2012-11-01 03:59:15 PM  

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil

Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.


Dantooine!
 
2012-11-01 04:00:31 PM  

spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


But they are MUCH more effective against ordinary buildings. And we would use them if we ever get into an Urban warfare situation again, say WWII like. Why be forced to take building after building, just level several blocks and move on.
 
2012-11-01 04:01:46 PM  

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


Conventional explosives don't leave you partially charred with your jungs turned inside out, and hanging out of your mouth. At this point, you are only mostly dead.

From the wiki:

In confinement, a series of reflective shock waves are generated, which maintain the fireball and can extend its duration to between 10 and 50 msec as exothermic recombination reactions occur. Further damage can result as the gases cool and pressure drops sharply, leading to a partial vacuum, powerful enough to cause physical damage to people and structures[citation needed]. This effect has given rise to the misnomer "vacuum bomb". Piston-type afterburning is also believed to occur in such structures, as flame-fronts accelerate through it.
 
2012-11-01 04:05:10 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: FMU-113


FMU-113 is an air burst fuze used in general purpose bombs.

Thermobarics, in our current applications, are used as either clearing hazardous areas or in the mountain tunnel structures.

Even if you wanted to use a thermobaric weapon on a town or village you wouldn't want an air burst, you'd want a stand-off ground burst. That way the fuel would disperse over the widest possible area before ignition, more bang for your buck that way.

/3E8x1
 
2012-11-01 04:13:49 PM  

MythDragon:
I haven't seen the actualy effects of a thermobaric, but I did get to watch the first live drop of the MOAB when I worked at Eglin. It was pretty cool.


I was Eglin in late '94 early '95 for Phase 1 of EOD school (it was split between two locations at the time) and then again from late '95 to early '97 as my first duty assignment. Great place to be stationed, especially for an EOD tech, you can learn more on an active test range then anywhere else.
 
2012-11-01 04:20:33 PM  

Mazzic518: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil

Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.

Dantooine!


Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration...
 
2012-11-01 04:25:31 PM  

Bontesla: I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.


Well, that kind of rhetoric isn't going to fly around here. Make up an opinion from biased sources and half-remembered facts and biased sources like everybody else!
 
2012-11-01 04:26:08 PM  
(I like biased sources)
 
2012-11-01 05:25:28 PM  
who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.
 
2012-11-01 05:28:04 PM  

give me doughnuts: Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?

Conventional explosives don't leave you partially charred with your jungs turned inside out, and hanging out of your mouth. At this point, you are only mostly dead.



So dropping a 500 lb Mk82 conventional bomb that can do the same thing is any different? With the added bonus of shrapnel causing more harm? Not as powerful as a fuel air bomb but the results are the same. Its not paintball, it's war.

 
2012-11-01 05:36:17 PM  

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


In the simplest terms, "regular" bombs rely on the shrapnel that used to be the bomb casing to produce casuaties. The ratio of weight of explosive to a weight of the rest of the bomb is somewhat small, because you don't really need a huge amount of pricey explosives to blow up a cheap iron casing; also heavy weight helps with penetration (so that's how Ron Jeremy does it!) of bunkers or vehicles. A 500lb Mk 82 bomb is 500lb and about 200lb of that is explosive.

Thermobaric weapons rely entirely on concussive blast and fire to produce casualties. Those also use surrounding oxygen to produce large amounts of fire for the size of the bomb. Easy way to put it: if a run-of-the-mill frag grenade blows up in real life, it's just that. A small boom and lots of fragmentation. Now take a frag grenade that blows up in an '80's action movie. Lots of fire and horrendous destructive power. Thermobaric weapons are essentially Hollywood bombs.

Video of car blown up by 150kg thermobaric bomb. Watch how the fire is getting sucked back into the point of detonation. That's where "vaccuum bomb" comes in.
 
2012-11-01 06:01:16 PM  
There's really no reason for this one other than the fact I found it by doing a google image search for "vaccuum bomb".

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-01 06:19:17 PM  

optimus_grime: who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.


Hey, since you seem to be so happy to do that:

www.kiwiveterans.co.nz

Meanwhile, the rest of the United States will continue being war weary after 12 years of brushfire conflict in countries that neither wanted us there, or in the case of Iraq, had nothing to do with 9/11 in the first place.
 
2012-11-01 06:32:21 PM  

vpb: That sucks.


I'm pretty sure it's gone from "suck" to "blow" by now.
 
2012-11-01 06:35:13 PM  

Man On Pink Corner: Bontesla: I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.

Well, that kind of rhetoric isn't going to fly around here. Make up an opinion from biased sources and half-remembered facts and biased sources like everybody else!


Or post huge boobies.

www.mybigtitsbabes.com

or big cocks

moldychum.typepad.com
 
2012-11-01 06:44:01 PM  

BronyMedic: optimus_grime: who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.

Hey, since you seem to be so happy to do that:

[www.kiwiveterans.co.nz image 470x700]

Meanwhile, the rest of the United States will continue being war weary after 12 years of brushfire conflict in countries that neither wanted us there, or in the case of Iraq, had nothing to do with 9/11 in the first place.


He was arguing for a change in policy, how is him enlisting in any way related to that? Or are you just being facetious?
 
2012-11-01 08:10:43 PM  

thunderbird8804: BolloxReader: onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.

Turkey. Many of the rebels are Kurds. Turkey will do anything and everything to prevent an independent Kurdish state from being formed, or a Kurdish government of an existing state. This is actually very convenient for Turkey, if the Syrian government manages to crush the Kurdish leaders.

Without Turkey's active involvement, the US really can do nothing.

I thought Erdogan was at the UN just a couple months ago calling for refugee camps and a no-fly zone to be set up.


That's a far cry from arming rebels, though. Following the topple of Saddam Hussein, they made a LOT of noise insisting that Iraq remain one country, threatening to invade if the Kurds managed to finagle their way to autonomy. I've had many Turkish acquaintences here in the US and their bigotry toward Arabs was only topped by their bigotry toward the Kurds. So I was struck by the warnings issued by Ankara over Iraq.

Turkey has to be concerned about refugee camps and preventing more influxes of Syrians fleeing war. It can quickly become a public health nightmare if impromptu camps are set up, diseases don't respect national boundaries even if people do (and refugees generally only respect them in the sense that a track and fielder respects hurdles).

I'd love to be proven wrong. If any Turkish Farker out there wishes to contest this, please speak up. But every one I've met and partied with in the US has two big biases, Arabs and Kurds. Which considering how often they would get confused with Arabs by Americans was a source of endless entertainment for me in my younger days. Now it just makes me sad that there is another set of Middle Eastern bigotry standing in the way of peace.
 
2012-11-01 08:16:22 PM  
cdn.ifanboy.com 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin
 
2012-11-01 08:25:31 PM  

WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin


This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?
 
2012-11-01 08:29:42 PM  

PonceAlyosha: WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin

This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?


Then this thread has just gone from suck to blow
 
2012-11-01 08:45:07 PM  

BolloxReader: That's a far cry from arming rebels, though. Following the topple of Saddam Hussein, they made a LOT of noise insisting that Iraq remain one country, threatening to invade if the Kurds managed to finagle their way to autonomy. I've had many Turkish acquaintences here in the US and their bigotry toward Arabs was only topped by their bigotry toward the Kurds. So I was struck by the warnings issued by Ankara over Iraq.

Turkey has to be concerned about refugee camps and preventing more influxes of Syrians fleeing war. It can quickly become a public health nightmare if impromptu camps are set up, diseases don't respect national boundaries even if people do (and refugees generally only respect them in the sense that a track and fielder respects hurdles).

I'd love to be proven wrong. If any Turkish Farker out there wishes to contest this, please speak up. But every one I've met and partied with in the US has two big biases, Arabs and Kurds. Which considering how often they would get confused with Arabs by Americans was a source of endless entertainment for me in my younger days. Now it just makes me sad that there is another set of Middle Eastern bigotry standing in the way of peace.


You're absolutely right about relations between the Turks and Kurds being quite poisonous, and Erdogan's proposal it is a far cry from arming the rebels, but the call for a no-fly zone isn't nothing. The same measure aided the Libyan rebellion immensely, and I can't help but think that it would have similar results in Syria.

/The Turks seem to have a pretty bitter hatred of the Armenians as well (Erdogan especially), so I guess they're just kinda assholes
//Which now that I think about it isn't terribly surprising
 
2012-11-01 09:24:41 PM  
Always nice to meet another vet of the battle of Yonkers
 
2012-11-01 09:30:11 PM  

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


Maybe because they are using them against their own people, and indiscriminately targeting 'civilians' because they are applying them as much for terror effect?

The Syrian government is several times worse than Qhadaffhi's Libyan government, so why aren't we helping the moderates affect regime change, as we did for the Islamists in Libya and Egypt?
 
2012-11-01 09:47:34 PM  

spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.


Yeah. I prefer my civilians being ripped apart by regular bombs.....or something.
 
2012-11-01 10:04:50 PM  
Meh, they're likely talking about small tbarics like a SMAW-NE.

Short of a Mark 19 on a pintle mount, there's few things as fun as a license to SMAW.

/make that building go away, please
//window seat
 
2012-11-01 10:38:00 PM  

MBooda: vpb: That sucks.

Unlike Megamaid and this thread, which have gone from suck to blow.


dcurpg.animeattic.net

Did somebody say Mecha Maid?
 
2012-11-01 11:24:17 PM  

ciberido: Did somebody say Mecha Maid?


Close...
farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2012-11-02 04:29:26 PM  

spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


That's because they lose their efficacy in open spaces, not because our commanders are a bunch of benevolent do-gooders.
 
2012-11-02 04:37:50 PM  

authorizeduser: spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.

That's because they lose their efficacy in open spaces, not because our commanders are a bunch of benevolent do-gooders.


FAE's work quite well in open spaces and are particularly effective against soft fleshy targets. Our commanders may not be benevolent do-gooders, but they do follow Geneva Convention on ordnance matters.

/not that that has always been the case
 
2012-11-02 04:43:33 PM  
Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?
 
2012-11-02 05:08:15 PM  

authorizeduser: Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?


Why bother when we can paint everything with the broadest of brush strokes?
 
2012-11-02 06:13:45 PM  

PonceAlyosha: WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin

This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?


...wasn't the one from the Tick "American Maid"?
 
2012-11-02 10:45:11 PM  

authorizeduser: Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?


you must not pay attention here... we split hairs over FAR more inconsequential shiat all the time.
 
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