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(CNN)   Rebels accuse Syrian government of using "vacuum bombs", Megamaid unavailable for comment   (cnn.com) divider line 86
    More: Scary, opposition groups, Syrians, Sergey Lavrov, Megamaid, LCC, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, russian foreign minister, international diplomacy  
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7596 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Nov 2012 at 2:13 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-01 11:02:06 AM
Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-01 11:18:19 AM
That sucks.
 
2012-11-01 12:15:20 PM
I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.
 
2012-11-01 01:09:25 PM
And on top of that, they're surrounded by assholes.
 
2012-11-01 01:51:53 PM

spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.


The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.
 
2012-11-01 02:06:45 PM

Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.


We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.
 
2012-11-01 02:18:51 PM
Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.
 
2012-11-01 02:22:03 PM
www.grammy.com

Outraged.
 
2012-11-01 02:24:48 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


Bad timing? We've been involved in one war or another for over ten years now, people are tired of the casualties and cost.
 
2012-11-01 02:25:30 PM
Removing the HEPA filter on one of those is against the Geneva Convention.
 
2012-11-01 02:25:56 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


historically, that's NEVER worked out in our favor. we armed the taliban, and look where that wound up going. we
'assisted' the baath party in overthrowing the legitimate government in iraq, which ultimately led to sadaam hussein rising to power, we funded and armed south american rebel groups, and look where THAT is going...

honestly, rather than arm the rebels, i'm surprised there hasn't been a 'whoopsy' weapons release over the government buildings by the warplanes of one nation or another.
 
2012-11-01 02:26:11 PM
We better prepare for action against Syria. Fasten all seatbelts, seal all entrances and exits, close all shops in the mall, cancel the three-ring circus, secure all animals in the zoo!
 
2012-11-01 02:26:40 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


We have armed rebels in the past. Often with unexpected results. The enemy of my enemy is not necessaraly my friend.
 
2012-11-01 02:28:05 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


Actually, that's what the "consulate" in Benghazi was doing - they were collecting weapons from the old Libyan army and sending them to the Syrian rebels. This is one of the reasons that the Republicans are all WHAGARBL because the Syrian rebels are infested with Al-Qaeda.
 
2012-11-01 02:29:39 PM

Bontesla: I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.


Mitt Romney? I had no idea you were a farker....
 
2012-11-01 02:31:01 PM
Evidence of the crime has all been cleaned up.
 
2012-11-01 02:31:03 PM
If Syria ever does fall, it will be interesting when Saddam's WMD stockpiles are finally discovered hiding there. I wouldn't be surprised if the thermobaric bombs were originally Iraqi.
 
2012-11-01 02:31:19 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


Yeah, we would arm a group of rebels so they could kick out a despotic government who liked the Russians and install a despotic government who liked us (or at least didn't like the Russians either). Let's say we arm the rebels... then what happens once Assad is gone and those 37 factions start turning on each other? We end up with either a much bigger version of Lebanon which has been in chaos for 40 years because no one faction has been able to dominate for very long, or Iran where one faction was able to overcome the others but implemented a regime that's worse than the one they removed. I'm not a Syria expert, but I don't see anything to indicate that whomever replaces the Assad regime would be any better in the long run.
 
2012-11-01 02:31:33 PM
Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?
 
2012-11-01 02:32:06 PM

TuteTibiImperes: onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.

Bad timing? We've been involved in one war or another for over ten years now, people are tired of the casualties and cost.


That and Russia has thrown in with the Syrian government. It sucks that the rebels are in a horrible position, and it sucks that civilians are dying, but the US is not going to confront Russia over a civil war between a government that hates us and Islamic militias that also hate us.

If the Saudis and Qataris want to arm the rebels, and they are, we will certainly encourage that. But you probably won't be finding any MADE IN USA stamps on anything over there anytime soon.
 
2012-11-01 02:34:18 PM
They are doing it wrong.

You should only carpet bomb with vacuum bombs in rugged terrain.
 
2012-11-01 02:39:01 PM
Clearly, we should arm the Syrian rebels because they've been crying out in explicit terms that they want U.S. involvment on their soil and to enter into a mutual defense pact with full recognition of our goals in the Middle East and around the globe.
 
2012-11-01 02:40:05 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


you can take cover from cluster munitions and WP pretty easily.

thermobaric device will kill you no matter what kind of cover you take, you got your choice of thermal dose leading to a VERY painful but swift death, shockwave death which can be spectacularly messy in a super-dave/capt. keneivil sort of way, or the pressure effects killing you righteously quick but leaving an otherwise externally non-cindered/pulverized corpse.

oh and they look like tiny nukes when they go off. it's a little disconcerting.
 
2012-11-01 02:40:39 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


See the comment above about where the US of A uses them.
 
2012-11-01 02:41:26 PM

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.

Yeah, we would arm a group of rebels so they could kick out a despotic government who liked the Russians and install a despotic government who liked us (or at least didn't like the Russians either). Let's say we arm the rebels... then what happens once Assad is gone and those 37 factions start turning on each other? We end up with either a much bigger version of Lebanon which has been in chaos for 40 years because no one faction has been able to dominate for very long, or Iran where one faction was able to overcome the others but implemented a regime that's worse than the one they removed. I'm not a Syria expert, but I don't see anything to indicate that whomever replaces the Assad regime would be any better in the long run.


Maybe replace him with a Druish princess
 
2012-11-01 02:42:57 PM
Brutal, from what I've read the bomb explodes and spreads a fuel mist over a large area, a secondary explosion lights it on fire and after the resulting expolosion, all the air is consumed in that area, creating a vaccum, and then the air is sucked out of your body, pulling your lungs out of your mouth.
 
2012-11-01 02:44:01 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


from the wiki:

"The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique-and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.... If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents."
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-11-01 02:44:25 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


Well, we did that in Afghanistan and look how well that worked out.
 
2012-11-01 02:45:09 PM

spelletrader: We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


That's because they're much more effective in that role. For towns and villages we use conventional explosives or simply park a plane with an autocannon above and fly circles.
 
2012-11-01 02:45:25 PM

buttery_shame_cave: Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?

you can take cover from cluster munitions and WP pretty easily.

thermobaric device will kill you no matter what kind of cover you take, you got your choice of thermal dose leading to a VERY painful but swift death, shockwave death which can be spectacularly messy in a super-dave/capt. keneivil sort of way, or the pressure effects killing you righteously quick but leaving an otherwise externally non-cindered/pulverized corpse.

oh and they look like tiny nukes when they go off. it's a little disconcerting.


You can take cover from the initial blast of cluster and WP munitions, but then you have bomblets all over the farking place ready to blow up curious children or inattentive adults. WP starts fires like a motherfarker and is functionally impossible to extinguish in a war zone environment.

Arguing that being able to take cover from a device makes it ethical whilst ignoring the long-term consequences is poor rationalization. I'm reading this as a desperate attempt to bash the war-drums by throwing around scary names. Thermobaric! Ooooh!
 
2012-11-01 02:49:09 PM

SmellsLikePoo: "The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique-and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs....


I doubt anyone survives long enough to expire from rarefaction. Your lungs can hold up to vacuum for longer than a bomb lasts.
 
2012-11-01 02:50:31 PM

spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


Depends on how you set the fuse.
 
2012-11-01 02:52:11 PM

you_idiot: Brutal, from what I've read the bomb explodes and spreads a fuel mist over a large area, a secondary explosion lights it on fire and after the resulting expolosion, all the air is consumed in that area, creating a vaccum, and then the air is sucked out of your body, pulling your lungs out of your mouth.


Just like napalm.
 
2012-11-01 02:54:34 PM

you_idiot: Brutal, from what I've read the bomb explodes and spreads a fuel mist over a large area, a secondary explosion lights it on fire and after the resulting expolosion, all the air is consumed in that area, creating a vaccum, and then the air is sucked out of your body, pulling your lungs out of your mouth.


The vacuum isn't nearly that energetic, but the rest is right. I guess it could suffocate someone, but that's assuming they survive the giant fark off explosion.
 
2012-11-01 02:56:15 PM

Bored Horde: buttery_shame_cave: Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?

you can take cover from cluster munitions and WP pretty easily.

thermobaric device will kill you no matter what kind of cover you take, you got your choice of thermal dose leading to a VERY painful but swift death, shockwave death which can be spectacularly messy in a super-dave/capt. keneivil sort of way, or the pressure effects killing you righteously quick but leaving an otherwise externally non-cindered/pulverized corpse.

oh and they look like tiny nukes when they go off. it's a little disconcerting.

You can take cover from the initial blast of cluster and WP munitions, but then you have bomblets all over the farking place ready to blow up curious children or inattentive adults. WP starts fires like a motherfarker and is functionally impossible to extinguish in a war zone environment.

Arguing that being able to take cover from a device makes it ethical whilst ignoring the long-term consequences is poor rationalization. I'm reading this as a desperate attempt to bash the war-drums by throwing around scary names. Thermobaric! Ooooh!


i was actively and specifically addressing the initial 'combat mode' action/use/avoidance of those munitions. more of a 'this is what a thermobaric weapon does' sort of comment.

sure, WP starts a fire, but the minute the fuel's gone the fire's out. it's far worse when it hits a person.

and cluster bombs don't leave 'bomblets all over the place' as you describe. mine-scattering munitions do, but those are more typically dispersed by artillery shells, or if they have to be done by aircraft, they sort of squirt them out of a special machine strapped underneath it. a cluster bomb is a really shiatty way to deliver that kind of ordinance, it's way too concentrated to be significantly useful(you just drive around it).

the sub-munitions are a biatch tho, as they can be set to go off after several bounces, rather than on impact. the shrapnel goes a LOT farther that way.

as has been noted, the mechanisms of death in the case of thermobaric munitions is spectacularly farking nasty. even if the bomb fails to go off, you just got blasted with what is, effectively, a chemical weapon and you're screwed anyways.

in some ways, it's a better munition, as it far more often kills outright and mostly instantly. cluster bombs and WP are really designed around the concept of ending the enemy's ability to fight by forcing him to take care of all his wounded, rather than ending it by simply cindering/smothering them.
 
2012-11-01 02:56:32 PM

Bored Horde: WP starts fires like a motherfarker and is functionally impossible to extinguish in a war zone environment.


Yup. I used to know a retired Marine who served in Vietnam. He was on a patrol boat carrying WP impregnated explosives; the boat caught a round, the explosives detonated and he was covered in WP fragments. Hell of a good guy, but he looked like a melted candle. He told me that he had initially tried to stay under water, because it wouldn't burn. But he gave up because he couldn't breathe. He burned instead. And he described the burning as the medics were trying to pick out the WP fragments in his body. Awful, awful stuff.
 
2012-11-01 02:59:04 PM

onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.


Turkey. Many of the rebels are Kurds. Turkey will do anything and everything to prevent an independent Kurdish state from being formed, or a Kurdish government of an existing state. This is actually very convenient for Turkey, if the Syrian government manages to crush the Kurdish leaders.

Without Turkey's active involvement, the US really can do nothing.
 
2012-11-01 03:03:48 PM

LesserEvil: If Syria ever does fall, it will be interesting when Saddam's WMD stockpiles are finally discovered hiding there. I wouldn't be surprised if the thermobaric bombs were originally Iraqi.


I read about these over 2 months ago in a defense dept trade mag the Isrealies were saying the bombs were made in Russia
 
2012-11-01 03:04:33 PM
Also from the wiki, the pressure wave/vacuum does all that damage but doesn't damage brain tissue, so you're aware while you suffocate/die from internal trauma.

The more I read about it the more I realize war is bad. We should try to avoid it.
 
2012-11-01 03:04:41 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?




The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique-and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.... If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents.

According to a separate U.S. Central Intelligence Agency study, "the effect of an FAE explosion within confined spaces is immense. Those near the ignition point are obliterated. Those at the fringe are likely to suffer many internal, and thus invisible injuries, including burst eardrums and crushed inner ear organs, severe concussions, ruptured lungs and internal organs, and possibly blindness."Another Defense Intelligence Agency document speculates that because the "shock and pressure waves cause minimal damage to brain tissue...it is possible that victims of FAEs are not rendered unconscious by the blast, but instead suffer for several seconds or minutes while they suffocate."
 
2012-11-01 03:08:50 PM

StoPPeRmobile: spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.

Depends on how you set the fuse.


We are talking target selection, fuzing is irrelevant.

The use of flame weapons, such as white phosphorous, thermobaric, and other incendiary, against military targets is not a violation of current international law.

But if you wanna talk shop - were you referring to HTSF or FMU-139?

Litig8r: spelletrader: We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.

That's because they're much more effective in that role. For towns and villages we use conventional explosives or simply park a plane with an autocannon above and fly circles.


Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".
 
2012-11-01 03:15:27 PM

BolloxReader: onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.

Turkey. Many of the rebels are Kurds. Turkey will do anything and everything to prevent an independent Kurdish state from being formed, or a Kurdish government of an existing state. This is actually very convenient for Turkey, if the Syrian government manages to crush the Kurdish leaders.

Without Turkey's active involvement, the US really can do nothing.


I thought Erdogan was at the UN just a couple months ago calling for refugee camps and a no-fly zone to be set up.
 
2012-11-01 03:19:06 PM

spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".


Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil
 
2012-11-01 03:28:10 PM

spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.


I don't see how one is worse than the other. Either way you end up dead. Kinda like how you're not supposed to target a combatant with a 120mm tank shell. Why not? It's not doing to make him any deader than the coax .50.
 
2012-11-01 03:29:32 PM

madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil


I am not talking about daisy cutters, these aren't nearly as well known but FAE Type I devices are much smaller and were used for clearing LZs. They were used in Vietnam first and then again in the desert with a slightly updated version. Some background here.
 
2012-11-01 03:31:00 PM
<b><a href="http://www.fark.com/comments/7411955/80405992#c80405992" target="_blank">SmellsLikePoo</a>:</b> <i>Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?

from the wiki:

"The [blast] kill mechanism against living targets is unique-and unpleasant.... What kills is the pressure wave, and more importantly, the subsequent rarefaction [vacuum], which ruptures the lungs.... If the fuel deflagrates but does not detonate, victims will be severely burned and will probably also inhale the burning fuel. Since the most common FAE fuels, ethylene oxide and propylene oxide, are highly toxic, undetonated FAE should prove as lethal to personnel caught within the cloud as most chemical agents."</i>

This is nothing more horrendous than being caught near the edge of a conventional explosive blast. They all kill the same way: by shockwave. One simply uses oxygen in the explosive compounds the other uses oxygen in the air. Because oxygen does not have to be included in the the bomb you can get more power (shockwave) for a similar weight provided it can be deployed in such a way that the fuel vaporizes well. Both produce immense heat that will burn things not destroyed by the shockwave. You're going to suffer horribly if not killed by the initial shockwave but no more so with thermobaric than conventional.

In short, thermobaric bombs are really nothing special from a humanitarian point of view. Having some semi-exotic explosive just makes for great shock journalism.

Cluster munitions are horrific because the bomblets dud freqently and leave an explosive behind for civilians to find long after the intended combatants have left the area. Napalm is horrific due to the particularly painful nature of burn injuries compared to others. Same thing with white phosphorous. 

But all academics aside it just really sucks that any of this shat is being used anywhere.
 
2012-11-01 03:32:04 PM

thrasherrr: They are doing it wrong.

You should only carpet bomb with vacuum bombs in rugged terrain.


They have to go door-to-door with the vacuum bombs, and the rugged terrain is wall-to-wall with rebels.
 
2012-11-01 03:32:57 PM

MythDragon: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

I don't see how one is worse than the other. Either way you end up dead. Kinda like how you're not supposed to target a combatant with a 120mm tank shell. Why not? It's not doing to make him any deader than the coax .50.


You'd have to ask the writers of the Geneva Convention.

But I have seen videos of FAE bombs tested against animals (required viewing at the time that I went through EOD school), and I can guarantee that it's not the way that you want to go out.
 
2012-11-01 03:41:50 PM

thrasherrr: They are doing it wrong.

You should only carpet bomb with vacuum bombs in rugged terrain.


www.dvdactive.com
I see what your schwartz has done.
 
2012-11-01 03:46:35 PM

spelletrader: StoPPeRmobile: spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.

Depends on how you set the fuse.

We are talking target selection, fuzing is irrelevant.


I was addressing the bolded statement.

Crosstrained to build but I remember FMU-113.

/462x0
 
2012-11-01 03:50:45 PM

vpb: That sucks.


Unlike Megamaid and this thread, which have gone from suck to blow.
 
2012-11-01 03:55:20 PM

madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil


Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.
 
2012-11-01 03:56:12 PM

spelletrader: MythDragon: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

I don't see how one is worse than the other. Either way you end up dead. Kinda like how you're not supposed to target a combatant with a 120mm tank shell. Why not? It's not doing to make him any deader than the coax .50.

You'd have to ask the writers of the Geneva Convention.

But I have seen videos of FAE bombs tested against animals (required viewing at the time that I went through EOD school), and I can guarantee that it's not the way that you want to go out.


I haven't seen the actualy effects of a thermobaric, but I did get to watch the first live drop of the MOAB when I worked at Eglin. It was pretty cool.
There are very few ways I'd like to go out. Only one involves fire:
suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com
 
2012-11-01 03:59:15 PM

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil

Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.


Dantooine!
 
2012-11-01 04:00:31 PM

spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


But they are MUCH more effective against ordinary buildings. And we would use them if we ever get into an Urban warfare situation again, say WWII like. Why be forced to take building after building, just level several blocks and move on.
 
2012-11-01 04:01:46 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


Conventional explosives don't leave you partially charred with your jungs turned inside out, and hanging out of your mouth. At this point, you are only mostly dead.

From the wiki:

In confinement, a series of reflective shock waves are generated, which maintain the fireball and can extend its duration to between 10 and 50 msec as exothermic recombination reactions occur. Further damage can result as the gases cool and pressure drops sharply, leading to a partial vacuum, powerful enough to cause physical damage to people and structures[citation needed]. This effect has given rise to the misnomer "vacuum bomb". Piston-type afterburning is also believed to occur in such structures, as flame-fronts accelerate through it.
 
2012-11-01 04:05:10 PM

StoPPeRmobile: FMU-113


FMU-113 is an air burst fuze used in general purpose bombs.

Thermobarics, in our current applications, are used as either clearing hazardous areas or in the mountain tunnel structures.

Even if you wanted to use a thermobaric weapon on a town or village you wouldn't want an air burst, you'd want a stand-off ground burst. That way the fuel would disperse over the widest possible area before ignition, more bang for your buck that way.

/3E8x1
 
2012-11-01 04:13:49 PM

MythDragon:
I haven't seen the actualy effects of a thermobaric, but I did get to watch the first live drop of the MOAB when I worked at Eglin. It was pretty cool.


I was Eglin in late '94 early '95 for Phase 1 of EOD school (it was split between two locations at the time) and then again from late '95 to early '97 as my first duty assignment. Great place to be stationed, especially for an EOD tech, you can learn more on an active test range then anywhere else.
 
2012-11-01 04:20:33 PM

Mazzic518: Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: madgonad: spelletrader: Oh we had some FAE bombs in Vietnam that were used to clear foliage that would also excel in an anti-personnel role, but that would cause "unnecessary suffering of individuals".

Daisy cutters aren't thermobaric. They are just really large conventional explosive deployed by transport plane and guided/retarded by a parachute.

However, the American scientist that invented them about 20 years ago was born in Vietnam.

/they are a terrible weapon with legitimate military uses (like mines)
//but using them on a civilian target is just farking evil

Perhaps you would prefer another target? A military target? THEN NAME THE SYSTEM.

Dantooine!


Dantooine is too remote to make an effective demonstration...
 
2012-11-01 04:25:31 PM

Bontesla: I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.


Well, that kind of rhetoric isn't going to fly around here. Make up an opinion from biased sources and half-remembered facts and biased sources like everybody else!
 
2012-11-01 04:26:08 PM
(I like biased sources)
 
2012-11-01 05:25:28 PM
who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.
 
2012-11-01 05:28:04 PM

give me doughnuts: Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?

Conventional explosives don't leave you partially charred with your jungs turned inside out, and hanging out of your mouth. At this point, you are only mostly dead.



So dropping a 500 lb Mk82 conventional bomb that can do the same thing is any different? With the added bonus of shrapnel causing more harm? Not as powerful as a fuel air bomb but the results are the same. Its not paintball, it's war.

 
2012-11-01 05:36:17 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


In the simplest terms, "regular" bombs rely on the shrapnel that used to be the bomb casing to produce casuaties. The ratio of weight of explosive to a weight of the rest of the bomb is somewhat small, because you don't really need a huge amount of pricey explosives to blow up a cheap iron casing; also heavy weight helps with penetration (so that's how Ron Jeremy does it!) of bunkers or vehicles. A 500lb Mk 82 bomb is 500lb and about 200lb of that is explosive.

Thermobaric weapons rely entirely on concussive blast and fire to produce casualties. Those also use surrounding oxygen to produce large amounts of fire for the size of the bomb. Easy way to put it: if a run-of-the-mill frag grenade blows up in real life, it's just that. A small boom and lots of fragmentation. Now take a frag grenade that blows up in an '80's action movie. Lots of fire and horrendous destructive power. Thermobaric weapons are essentially Hollywood bombs.

Video of car blown up by 150kg thermobaric bomb. Watch how the fire is getting sucked back into the point of detonation. That's where "vaccuum bomb" comes in.
 
2012-11-01 06:01:16 PM
There's really no reason for this one other than the fact I found it by doing a google image search for "vaccuum bomb".

img.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-01 06:19:17 PM

optimus_grime: who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.


Hey, since you seem to be so happy to do that:

www.kiwiveterans.co.nz

Meanwhile, the rest of the United States will continue being war weary after 12 years of brushfire conflict in countries that neither wanted us there, or in the case of Iraq, had nothing to do with 9/11 in the first place.
 
2012-11-01 06:32:21 PM

vpb: That sucks.


I'm pretty sure it's gone from "suck" to "blow" by now.
 
2012-11-01 06:35:13 PM

Man On Pink Corner: Bontesla: I really don't know what a good solution is for Syria. The current strategy isn't working. I just really have no solution.

Well, that kind of rhetoric isn't going to fly around here. Make up an opinion from biased sources and half-remembered facts and biased sources like everybody else!


Or post huge boobies.

www.mybigtitsbabes.com

or big cocks

moldychum.typepad.com
 
2012-11-01 06:44:01 PM

BronyMedic: optimus_grime: who cares about arming the rebels?

what we should do is disarm the tyrants by wrecking his navy and airforce.

Hey, since you seem to be so happy to do that:

[www.kiwiveterans.co.nz image 470x700]

Meanwhile, the rest of the United States will continue being war weary after 12 years of brushfire conflict in countries that neither wanted us there, or in the case of Iraq, had nothing to do with 9/11 in the first place.


He was arguing for a change in policy, how is him enlisting in any way related to that? Or are you just being facetious?
 
2012-11-01 08:10:43 PM

thunderbird8804: BolloxReader: onyxruby: Why isn't anybody arming the rebels? They are clearly fighting a very bad government that has sponsored terrorism for years. Presidents of past, both democrat and republican, would have had these rebels armed long ago, some for Libya. Instead we get a long drawn out fight with a lot more bloodshed and a tyrant still in charge that should have been overthrown long ago.

Turkey. Many of the rebels are Kurds. Turkey will do anything and everything to prevent an independent Kurdish state from being formed, or a Kurdish government of an existing state. This is actually very convenient for Turkey, if the Syrian government manages to crush the Kurdish leaders.

Without Turkey's active involvement, the US really can do nothing.

I thought Erdogan was at the UN just a couple months ago calling for refugee camps and a no-fly zone to be set up.


That's a far cry from arming rebels, though. Following the topple of Saddam Hussein, they made a LOT of noise insisting that Iraq remain one country, threatening to invade if the Kurds managed to finagle their way to autonomy. I've had many Turkish acquaintences here in the US and their bigotry toward Arabs was only topped by their bigotry toward the Kurds. So I was struck by the warnings issued by Ankara over Iraq.

Turkey has to be concerned about refugee camps and preventing more influxes of Syrians fleeing war. It can quickly become a public health nightmare if impromptu camps are set up, diseases don't respect national boundaries even if people do (and refugees generally only respect them in the sense that a track and fielder respects hurdles).

I'd love to be proven wrong. If any Turkish Farker out there wishes to contest this, please speak up. But every one I've met and partied with in the US has two big biases, Arabs and Kurds. Which considering how often they would get confused with Arabs by Americans was a source of endless entertainment for me in my younger days. Now it just makes me sad that there is another set of Middle Eastern bigotry standing in the way of peace.
 
2012-11-01 08:16:22 PM
cdn.ifanboy.com 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin
 
2012-11-01 08:25:31 PM

WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin


This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?
 
2012-11-01 08:29:42 PM

PonceAlyosha: WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin

This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?


Then this thread has just gone from suck to blow
 
2012-11-01 08:45:07 PM

BolloxReader: That's a far cry from arming rebels, though. Following the topple of Saddam Hussein, they made a LOT of noise insisting that Iraq remain one country, threatening to invade if the Kurds managed to finagle their way to autonomy. I've had many Turkish acquaintences here in the US and their bigotry toward Arabs was only topped by their bigotry toward the Kurds. So I was struck by the warnings issued by Ankara over Iraq.

Turkey has to be concerned about refugee camps and preventing more influxes of Syrians fleeing war. It can quickly become a public health nightmare if impromptu camps are set up, diseases don't respect national boundaries even if people do (and refugees generally only respect them in the sense that a track and fielder respects hurdles).

I'd love to be proven wrong. If any Turkish Farker out there wishes to contest this, please speak up. But every one I've met and partied with in the US has two big biases, Arabs and Kurds. Which considering how often they would get confused with Arabs by Americans was a source of endless entertainment for me in my younger days. Now it just makes me sad that there is another set of Middle Eastern bigotry standing in the way of peace.


You're absolutely right about relations between the Turks and Kurds being quite poisonous, and Erdogan's proposal it is a far cry from arming the rebels, but the call for a no-fly zone isn't nothing. The same measure aided the Libyan rebellion immensely, and I can't help but think that it would have similar results in Syria.

/The Turks seem to have a pretty bitter hatred of the Armenians as well (Erdogan especially), so I guess they're just kinda assholes
//Which now that I think about it isn't terribly surprising
 
2012-11-01 09:24:41 PM
Always nice to meet another vet of the battle of Yonkers
 
2012-11-01 09:30:11 PM

Bored Horde: Can anyone explain to me how thermobaric devices are any more barbaric then conventional explosive devices? I mean given that the US of A and Israel have both thrown around wooly peter and cluster bombs like so much confetti, what are the Syrians doing that is uniquely evil?


Maybe because they are using them against their own people, and indiscriminately targeting 'civilians' because they are applying them as much for terror effect?

The Syrian government is several times worse than Qhadaffhi's Libyan government, so why aren't we helping the moderates affect regime change, as we did for the Islamists in Libya and Egypt?
 
2012-11-01 09:47:34 PM

spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.


Yeah. I prefer my civilians being ripped apart by regular bombs.....or something.
 
2012-11-01 10:04:50 PM
Meh, they're likely talking about small tbarics like a SMAW-NE.

Short of a Mark 19 on a pintle mount, there's few things as fun as a license to SMAW.

/make that building go away, please
//window seat
 
2012-11-01 10:38:00 PM

MBooda: vpb: That sucks.

Unlike Megamaid and this thread, which have gone from suck to blow.


dcurpg.animeattic.net

Did somebody say Mecha Maid?
 
2012-11-01 11:24:17 PM

ciberido: Did somebody say Mecha Maid?


Close...
farm7.staticflickr.com
 
2012-11-02 04:29:26 PM

spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.


That's because they lose their efficacy in open spaces, not because our commanders are a bunch of benevolent do-gooders.
 
2012-11-02 04:37:50 PM

authorizeduser: spelletrader: Jubeebee: spelletrader: Using cluster bombs on people is bad enough, but FAE bombs are down right disturbing.

The US uses them in Afghanistan, don't we? We don't have a lot of moral high ground here.

We use thermobaric weapons against hardened bunkers and structures buried deep in mountains, not in the middle of towns and villages.

That's because they lose their efficacy in open spaces, not because our commanders are a bunch of benevolent do-gooders.


FAE's work quite well in open spaces and are particularly effective against soft fleshy targets. Our commanders may not be benevolent do-gooders, but they do follow Geneva Convention on ordnance matters.

/not that that has always been the case
 
2012-11-02 04:43:33 PM
Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?
 
2012-11-02 05:08:15 PM

authorizeduser: Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?


Why bother when we can paint everything with the broadest of brush strokes?
 
2012-11-02 06:13:45 PM

PonceAlyosha: WeenerGord: [cdn.ifanboy.com image 325x244] 

Can't believe I'm the first, you guys are slippin

This was a reference to the Spaces Balls Megamaid, not the one from the Tick, if I'm right?


...wasn't the one from the Tick "American Maid"?
 
2012-11-02 10:45:11 PM

authorizeduser: Are we really going to split hairs over barbaric vs. "civilized" ways to kill and maim?


you must not pay attention here... we split hairs over FAR more inconsequential shiat all the time.
 
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