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(ESPN)   Eagles wide receiver DeSean Jackson says Michael Vick is still an elite quarterback. In other news, Webster has changed the definition of "elite" to "mediocre"   (espn.go.com) divider line 118
    More: Amusing, Michael Vick, DeSean Jackson, wide receiver, Antonio Pierce, Philadelphia Eagles, Nick Foles, Total QBR, elite quarterbacks  
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444 clicks; posted to Sports » on 31 Oct 2012 at 9:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-31 12:21:12 PM

This Looks Fun: Also, wow my list is probably the most unintentionally racist thing I've done in a while.


SLFF found! Do I win something?
 
2012-10-31 12:21:19 PM

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: That category I was thinking more along the lines of guys that are just as likely to throw 4 TDs as they are 4 INTs.

Oh, Eli does the 4 TD at a 2:1 ratio of 4 INT games.

Oddly, all three 4 INT games were against the NFC North (MIN 2x, GB once). And his 4 TD games break down like this: 2 DAL, 2 PHI, NE, STL.


That's a fair point, but compare his playoff record to the other guys in that category. He's clearly a bigger playoff threat than he is a heavy turnover threat.
 
2012-10-31 12:21:50 PM

farbekrieg: IAmRight: I don't see why people think that Foles wouldn't be able to perform - pretty much all of the rookie QBs have been pretty decent to good. Even Weeden, despite his awful rating, has been pretty good for the Browns since Week 1.

so your arguement is all the other rookies are doing ok so foles should too?


The one thing Andy Reid has seemed to do really well (I'm too lazy to look up stats or anything) is groom young and/or inexperienced QBs to be perform pretty well at least on the short term.

Koy Detmer actually looked "serviceable", sometimes, when he played, and Kevin Kolb looked alright. I remember Mike Kafka of all people coming in a game last year and playing DAMN well in relief of Vick on short notice. There's probably other examples I'm forgetting too.
 
2012-10-31 12:23:44 PM

This Looks Fun: That's a fair point, but compare his playoff record to the other guys in that category. He's clearly a bigger playoff threat than he is a heavy turnover threat.


Only on the road.

Heck, before last year he was 0-2, 0 TD, 5 INT at home in the playoffs.
 
2012-10-31 12:24:10 PM

thecpt: This Looks Fun: Also, wow my list is probably the most unintentionally racist thing I've done in a while.

SLFF found! Do I win something?


No, but I might try to rethink my stance on RG3 just to put him in a more positive group and avoid further tarninshing race-relations here.

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: move him up when it makes sense to.

Well, I mean, then you have to re-rank your groups. Game Outcome Deciders is better than liabilities.


True.
 
2012-10-31 12:25:10 PM

This Looks Fun: Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Ryan
Schaub


Err, what? Really? I know Ryan's looking good right now and Schaub's Texans are a good team. But holy balls a season ago they were both guys who "can't win in the playoffs" and Matt Ryan was "Matty Hype".
 
2012-10-31 12:26:39 PM

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: That's a fair point, but compare his playoff record to the other guys in that category. He's clearly a bigger playoff threat than he is a heavy turnover threat.

Only on the road.

Heck, before last year he was 0-2, 0 TD, 5 INT at home in the playoffs.


I didn't realize that. Luckily for him, they underperform so much during the season, he's so rarely at home in the playoffs that it's not much of a problem. But I guess my list is just as imperfect as roc's in a different way. Oh well.
 
2012-10-31 12:27:22 PM

Treygreen13: This Looks Fun: Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Ryan
Schaub

Err, what? Really? I know Ryan's looking good right now and Schaub's Texans are a good team. But holy balls a season ago they were both guys who "can't win in the playoffs" and Matt Ryan was "Matty Hype".


Which is exactly why they are not in the playoff threat category. I thought that was pretty obvious. The win games, not championships.
 
2012-10-31 12:32:30 PM

This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: That category I was thinking more along the lines of guys that are just as likely to throw 4 TDs as they are 4 INTs.

Oh, Eli does the 4 TD at a 2:1 ratio of 4 INT games.

Oddly, all three 4 INT games were against the NFC North (MIN 2x, GB once). And his 4 TD games break down like this: 2 DAL, 2 PHI, NE, STL.

That's a fair point, but compare his playoff record to the other guys in that category. He's clearly a bigger playoff threat than he is a heavy turnover threat.


Eli has done a fine job of limiting his turnovers (other than his first ever playoff game, for which he's earned a pass). But, his playoff record is also "Win every game in which the opposing team scores 20 or fewer, lose every game in which the opposing team scores 21 or more."
 
2012-10-31 12:41:55 PM

This Looks Fun: roc6783: This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

That's a good way to look at it too. How would you slot them using your system?

Off the top of my head with no data in front of me:

Elite (You don't want to play these guys in the playoffs.)
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
P. Manning
E. Manning

Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Ryan
Schaub
Roethlisberger

Strong Managers/System QBs (If they played in Kansas City they would lose every game.)
Smith
Stafford
Flacco
Dalton
Hasselbeck
Palmer


Wildcard Players (Exciting to watch, but unpredictable.)
Vick
Newton
Wilson
RG3
Freeman
.


Two things: Hasselbeck is probably a good system QB now, but not too long ago, he would have fit into the "elite" category or damned close to it. His ability to read the defense and audible a correct play finished off a lot of teams.

With Wilson, I don't think he's unpredictable now. I think for the first few games, they made him a "game manager" QB in order to learn on the job. Now that they've opened the playbook, he's actually been incredibly consistent. His receivers haven't (they've left three or four TDs on the field over the past two games). He also throws a spectacular deep pass.
 
2012-10-31 12:42:20 PM

Treygreen13: This Looks Fun: Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Ryan
Schaub

Err, what? Really? I know Ryan's looking good right now and Schaub's Texans are a good team. But holy balls a season ago they were both guys who "can't win in the playoffs" and Matt Ryan was "Matty Hype".


Ryan is a fine QB, and the falcons have run into the eventual SB winner the last 2 years in the playoffs (it does not excuse his under performing in both games, 19 and 2 points respectively), and his apperant regression last year is disturbing, so I can see a 'we dont want to hear anything from you until you win a playoff game' mentality, but where exactly would you place him in that qb ranking system?

Shaub is very much a system QB, but I dont think it should be held against him, he is putting up good numbers and Texans look like the team to beat in the AFC.
 
2012-10-31 12:45:24 PM

Unemployedingreenland: Definitely elite - I mean how many quarterbacks are there in this world - 10,000, maybe 100,000, maybe even a million or 10 million or more if you count the pee wees. How many of them can complete even one pass in the NFL? Maybe a few hundred (maybe a few thousand)? Now how many of them can play games at the NFL level? How many of them can play multiple seasons? Just a few hundred max, closer to a few dozen. I'd say belonging to that club makes anyone elite in every sense of the word.

Of course, that makes Sanchez elite too, but there you go.


Exactly.
Population of Earth - 6.5 billion
NFL Starting QBs - 32

If that ain't "elite" then what is?
 
2012-10-31 12:51:16 PM
So we are saying 16% of the starting NFL QB's are Elite? That seems like a pretty generous definition of elite. I would say it should be no more than 5%. Which would mean that only 2 QB's in the league at any given time could possibly be elite. I would pick Brady and Rodgers today as the elite NFL QB's. 

Peyton and Brees are no longer playing like elite QB's. Eli is borderline elite, but I'd take Brady and Rodgers as my QB over Eli.
 
2012-10-31 12:54:24 PM

Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: So we are saying 16% of the starting NFL QB's are Elite? That seems like a pretty generous definition of elite. I would say it should be no more than 5%. Which would mean that only 2 QB's in the league at any given time could possibly be elite. I would pick Brady and Rodgers today as the elite NFL QB's. 

Peyton and Brees are no longer playing like elite QB's. Eli is borderline elite, but I'd take Brady and Rodgers as my QB over Eli.


i was so close to responding to this one... a damn fine troll SLFF

6/10
 
2012-10-31 12:55:55 PM

Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: So we are saying 16% of the starting NFL QB's are Elite? That seems like a pretty generous definition of elite. I would say it should be no more than 5%. Which would mean that only 2 QB's in the league at any given time could possibly be elite. I would pick Brady and Rodgers today as the elite NFL QB's. 

Peyton and Brees are no longer playing like elite QB's. Eli is borderline elite, but I'd take Brady and Rodgers as my QB over Eli.


Well no wonder Spike Lee likes you so much. You get down to the meat. I guess this is the issue. With the inclusion of Peyton and Brees, where does the line get drawn. I'm fine with this.
 
2012-10-31 01:12:45 PM

Sin_City_Superhero: Unemployedingreenland: Definitely elite - I mean how many quarterbacks are there in this world - 10,000, maybe 100,000, maybe even a million or 10 million or more if you count the pee wees. How many of them can complete even one pass in the NFL? Maybe a few hundred (maybe a few thousand)? Now how many of them can play games at the NFL level? How many of them can play multiple seasons? Just a few hundred max, closer to a few dozen. I'd say belonging to that club makes anyone elite in every sense of the word.

Of course, that makes Sanchez elite too, but there you go.

Exactly.
Population of Earth - 6.5 billion
NFL Starting QBs - 32

If that ain't "elite" then what is?


Population of Earth that think Mark Sanchez sucks: 6.5 billion - 1.
 
2012-10-31 01:13:51 PM
Elite? I'd say that correct--he's the first and only quarterback to ever rush for over 1,000 yards. But that was back in 2006, 6 seasons ago. He's not elite anymore, he's lost a step. It used to be that when he forgot the play and ran the wrong way that he could make a move and get away with it; now he just looks dumb. It used to be that opposing defenses had to use a "shadow" player to protect against him running that opened up a receiver--and it was said that once he learned how to read defenses nobody could stop him. Well, he never learned how to read defenses. And now 280 pound white guys are running him down from behind.
 
2012-10-31 01:18:18 PM

farbekrieg: but where exactly would you place him in that qb ranking system?

Shaub is very much a system QB, but I dont think it should be held against him, he is putting up good numbers and Texans look like the team to beat in the AFC.


Matt Ryan is 50-19 as a starter, so I think he probably belongs in the "winners" category. Just surprised to see everyone so fond of him this year. It's a big change.

Matt Schaub is 38-35 as a starter. I'd put him in the System QB spot.
 
2012-10-31 01:23:15 PM
well, i guess i could listen to some kid dressed like this tell me what an elite QB is.

ll-media.tmz.com

/i guess
 
2012-10-31 01:26:55 PM

This Looks Fun: roc6783: This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***


No real arguments on any of them, but i would put Freeman in the underperforming category, but that could be a reaction to the hype that surrounded him rather than actual performance.

On a side note, why you so racist?
 
2012-10-31 01:27:21 PM

Treygreen13: Matt Schaub is 38-35 as a starter. I'd put him in the System QB spot.


which i think would have been fair the last 2 years, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt this year based on his (team) success.

But I can definitely see a strong arguement for system QB. But I would prefer shaub to say alex smith by a wide margin.

Treygreen13: Matt Ryan is 50-19 as a starter, so I think he probably belongs in the "winners" category. Just surprised to see everyone so fond of him this year. It's a big change.


moving your qb rating up 10 pts helps (91.0 in 2010 92.2 in 2011 and 103.0 this year so far), which i know isnt the be all end all for qbs but it displays hes throwing for an extra 20 yards per game this year, tds up, ints at same rate, completion % up etc.
 
2012-10-31 01:33:38 PM

roc6783: On a side note, why you so racist?


I dunno man. I didn't even know it until just now, so I've got to process some things. I would seriously have fudged my groups a little if I saw that all of the black QBs were in the same group. I know it looks bad, but I was just moving them to where I thought they belonged. I feel a little bad.
 
2012-10-31 01:35:10 PM

This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

But I guess my list is just as imperfect as roc's in a different way. Oh well.


The thing is, no one argues about the top or the bottom, but the D-Bags in the middle always get the dander up.



TheOther: Sin_City_Superhero: Unemployedingreenland: ***snip**

Population of Earth that think Mark Sanchez sucks: 6.5 billion - 1.


I am not sure what's funnier, that you didn't include his mom or that I was going to correct you and add her in, but I am pretty sure you had it right.
 
2012-10-31 01:35:43 PM

Boxcutta: In a related matter, my fantasy squad, "Quiche Cromartie," has dropped DeSean Jackson to pick up a bye week fill in defense.


Yikes. I haven't given up on DS-Jax yet, but I will have a tough choice when Alshon Jeffrey comes off the DL.

/I can haz Steve Jackson trade to a contender?
//which would also give Daryl Richardson (who I also have) full-time starting RB carries
 
2012-10-31 01:35:56 PM
i kept desean jackson in a deep keeper league. he hasnt started once yet and even in the one week he had good numbers i dont regret not starting him. he is like a trade plague now too. no one wants him cuz vick is sucking like a Dyson fantasy-wise if you have his receivers. if you have him, then he's not too bad but the rest of his team isn't worth drafting.
 
2012-10-31 01:38:19 PM

farbekrieg: Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: So we are saying 16% of the starting NFL QB's are Elite? That seems like a pretty generous definition of elite. I would say it should be no more than 5%. Which would mean that only 2 QB's in the league at any given time could possibly be elite. I would pick Brady and Rodgers today as the elite NFL QB's. 

Peyton and Brees are no longer playing like elite QB's. Eli is borderline elite, but I'd take Brady and Rodgers as my QB over Eli.

i was so close to responding to this one... a damn fine troll SLFF

6/10


Pretty f*cked up of you to use 3/5 as your score on that.

/I'm impressed if it were intentional
 
2012-10-31 01:41:54 PM

This Looks Fun: roc6783: ***snip***

I know it looks bad, but I was just moving them to where I thought they belonged. I feel a little bad.


I bet you even have friends that are black NFL QBs.

///If Culpepper, McNabb, or McNair were still alive/in the league, I bet they would be in different categories, but ya, you dun goofed. You could probably move Freeman to Underperforming, Vick to Liabilities, Wilson to Game Managers, and any of your Game Deciders into Wildcards, but we all still know what you did.
 
2012-10-31 02:01:36 PM

Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Well duh. What teammate is going to publically say that his QB sucks?


Terrell Owens?
 
2012-10-31 02:04:20 PM

srhp29: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Well duh. What teammate is going to publically say that his QB sucks?


Terrell Owens?


Santonio Holmes?
 
2012-10-31 02:06:50 PM

Komplex: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.

There are zero reasons to not have Rodgers in the elite category.

You mean other than losing at home in a divisional playoff game?


Yeah, because Brady has never lost at home in a divisional playoff game. Oh wait, 2010-11 playoffs.
errr Eli Manning has never lost at home in a divisional playoff game. Oh wait, 2008-09 playoffs.
errr Peyton Manning has never lost at home in a divisional playoff game. Oh wait, 2005-06 playoffs.
 
2012-10-31 02:10:30 PM
Here is a list of words of Eagles Players and Managment don't know the meaning of. Please feel free to add.

Elite
Dynasty
Salary Cap
Super Bowl Champion
Gold Standard
Defensive Coordinator
Strength and Conditioning Assitant Coach
Do a better job
Put players in a better position
Time management
Game plan
Cover Corner
Saftey
QB Pressure
 
2012-10-31 02:12:47 PM

flynn80: Here is a list of words of Eagles Players and Managment don't know the meaning of. Please feel free to add.


dream team
 
2012-10-31 02:13:50 PM

flynn80: Here is a list of words of Eagles Players and Managment don't know the meaning of. Please feel free to add.

Elite
Dynasty
Salary Cap
Super Bowl Champion
Gold Standard
Defensive Coordinator
Strength and Conditioning Assitant Coach
Do a better job
Put players in a better position
Time management
Game plan
Cover Corner
Saftey
QB Pressure


Dream Team
 
2012-10-31 02:15:17 PM
Damnit. Should have re-freshed. How about this one:

Establish running game
 
2012-10-31 02:17:29 PM
Dalton is misplaced in all these lists.

Soulless QBs:
Dalton

/fixed
//God damn it bengals! wtf.. no really wtf is going on? How can you be so good against Washington and then just farking suck so hard the last three week?! losing to the browns? Miami? fark the steelers. I had to sit next the biggest a-hole of a steelers fan while you guys pissed the game away. Peyton is coming to the jungle this weekend and hes the farking chain saw. At least I know that Jay and Zim are going to be here next year cause who the fark is going to want to hire these tards that can't get their team together. Marvin is the garbage man of NFL coaches. He knows it and no one wants his job so no need to worry about not having a job! Go back to taking chances with the players making plays on the field and leave the big boy work to people with talent.
///I feel better
 
2012-10-31 02:26:13 PM

flynn80: Here is a list of words of Eagles Players and Managment don't know the meaning of. Please feel free to add.

Elite
Dynasty
Salary Cap
Super Bowl Champion
Gold Standard
Defensive Coordinator
Strength and Conditioning Assitant Coach
Do a better job
Put players in a better position
Time management
Game plan
Cover Corner
Saftey
QB Pressure


Overtime
 
2012-10-31 02:28:06 PM

Your Zionist Leader: Overtime


The worst thing about that overtime game is that McNabb not knowing the overtime rules caused the game to end in a tie. They made the playoffs because of it.
 
2012-10-31 02:28:37 PM

Tango_down: Dalton is misplaced in all these lists.

Soulless QBs:
Dalton

/fixed
//God damn it bengals! wtf.. (whinewhinewhine)
///I feel better


www.troll.me

/Steelers fan
 
2012-10-31 02:35:40 PM

thecpt: srhp29: Precious Roy's Horse Dividers: Well duh. What teammate is going to publically say that his QB sucks?


Terrell Owens?

Santonio Holmes?


The entire Kansas City Chiefs?
 
2012-10-31 02:40:15 PM

Odd Bird: Tango_down: Dalton is misplaced in all these lists.

Soulless QBs:
Dalton

/fixed
//God damn it bengals! wtf.. (whinewhinewhine)
///I feel better

[www.troll.me image 204x342]

/Steelers fan


I'm clearly mad bro. Next time I'll put that first... for all the steelers fans... just so there is no question.
 
2012-10-31 02:50:56 PM

Twigz221: We already did that to the word epic. Why not do it to elite too?

Eagles still have a shot at the wild card if they can turn things around and have a really strong finish. They wont be catching the Giants for the division though. If they can't Reid better start polishing his resume.


Their remaining schedule is relatively weak--only one of their remaining games is against a team that is currently over .500. But unless the O-line suddenly learns how to block, we'll all be looking toward next season before Thanksgiving rolls around.

I think that Reid is done after this year regardless.
 
2012-10-31 03:01:28 PM
I dare you to put any of the "Elite" QB's behind the Eagles O line and see if they are still "Elite" at the end of the season. Seriously the Eagles have the worst O-line in the league and yet its all of Vick's fault... Please, there are many teams that would be begging to have Vick on thier team right now. Give the man some protection and i bet we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Not to mention it is time for Reid to go, between the clock managment and very questionable play calls i think Reid's day's of coaching are very numbered. I think if they bench or trade Vick it would be a huge mistake for the Eagles.
 
2012-10-31 03:07:01 PM

IAmRight: farbekrieg: Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: So we are saying 16% of the starting NFL QB's are Elite? That seems like a pretty generous definition of elite. I would say it should be no more than 5%. Which would mean that only 2 QB's in the league at any given time could possibly be elite. I would pick Brady and Rodgers today as the elite NFL QB's. 

Peyton and Brees are no longer playing like elite QB's. Eli is borderline elite, but I'd take Brady and Rodgers as my QB over Eli.

i was so close to responding to this one... a damn fine troll SLFF

6/10

Pretty f*cked up of you to use 3/5 as your score on that.

/I'm impressed if it were intentional


it seemed way more classy than your 3/5ths of an opinion has been noted
 
2012-10-31 03:11:50 PM

SuperJonnyC: I dare you to put any of the "Elite" QB's behind the Eagles O line and see if they are still "Elite" at the end of the season. Seriously the Eagles have the worst O-line in the league and yet its all of Vick's fault... Please, there are many teams that would be begging to have Vick on thier team right now. Give the man some protection and i bet we wouldnt even be having this conversation


This is bull. The online is not great, but it's workable. Vick often has time for a drop and to make a quick read.

Vick often holds to ball too long or takes his eyes off the receivers in order to move in the pocket.

It's a combination of:

He's too small
He's no longer very fast
He's too slow to read the D and release the ball
The coach is calling routes that develop too slowly


Sure at times the line gives up quick pressure, but more often he has the same time top-level QBs get and he's not making a decision

Vick had 5 good games 2 years ago, and people keep waiting for it to happen again. He had a good line at the end of 2010, and good line all of last year and was play just as poorly/average
 
2012-10-31 03:12:13 PM

SuperJonnyC: I dare you to put any of the "Elite" QB's behind the Eagles O line and see if they are still "Elite" at the end of the season. Seriously the Eagles have the worst O-line in the league and yet its all of Vick's fault... Please, there are many teams that would be begging to have Vick on thier team right now. Give the man some protection and i bet we wouldnt even be having this conversation. Not to mention it is time for Reid to go, between the clock managment and very questionable play calls i think Reid's day's of coaching are very numbered. I think if they bench or trade Vick it would be a huge mistake for the Eagles.


Times Sacked 2012:
1. A. Rodgers - 28
.
.
.
6. M. Vick - 20


O-Line Rankings from Football Outsiders through Week 7

Pass Protection:
PHI - 20
GB - 30
 
2012-10-31 03:14:53 PM

IAmRight: I don't see why people think that Foles wouldn't be able to perform - pretty much all of the rookie QBs have been pretty decent to good. Even Weeden, despite his awful rating, has been pretty good for the Browns since Week 1.


Just because the other rookies are playing well doesn't mean Foles will. I think they should start him though. There has been those grumblings that the Eagles could cut Vick to save, I think something like $12m in cap space. If they are remotely considering that, they probably should know what they have in Foles first. Vick isn't getting any younger and needs to rely more on his arm than his legs. I don't see him being good enough to get them deep into the playoffs, let alone the SB.

Get the kid some playing time and see how he does.
 
2012-10-31 03:16:03 PM

roc6783: O-Line Rankings from Football Outsiders through Week 7


Arizona's adjusted sack rate: 11.6%

Holy Shiat.
 
2012-10-31 03:20:13 PM
Link

Vick is statistically one of the worst QBs in getting rid of the ball, ranked 28th in long sacks - 3+ seconds.
 
2012-10-31 03:28:14 PM
Elite players get benched for poor performance all the time.
 
2012-10-31 03:28:54 PM

MugzyBrown: Link

Vick is statistically one of the worst QBs in getting rid of the ball, ranked 28th in long sacks - 3+ seconds.


I'm not an Eagles fan, nor do I hate them, but I did watch one of their games a few weeks ago (Lions?). Vick held onto the ball for waaaaay too long, even on plays where there wasn't much pressure. He'd read, read, read, read, and then, when someone got too close, run like hell or throw it out of bounds. It reminded me of the first half of the Seattle/GB game, where Rodgers got pummeled because he kept looking waaaaay downfield.
 
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