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(ESPN)   Eagles wide receiver DeSean Jackson says Michael Vick is still an elite quarterback. In other news, Webster has changed the definition of "elite" to "mediocre"   (espn.go.com) divider line 118
    More: Amusing, Michael Vick, DeSean Jackson, wide receiver, Antonio Pierce, Philadelphia Eagles, Nick Foles, Total QBR, elite quarterbacks  
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454 clicks; posted to Sports » on 31 Oct 2012 at 9:55 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-31 10:00:55 AM  
I won't believe that until I hear it from Joe Flacco. That dude knows elitism
 
2012-10-31 10:05:53 AM  
what is he going to say, vick at least gives the team an option to win games, you put foles out there and you are telling the vets the season is over.

philly has what, the 3rd easiest schedule from here on out?
 
2012-10-31 10:17:21 AM  
In shocking news, DeSean Jackson doesnt know what the word 'elite' means.
 
2012-10-31 10:17:34 AM  
We already did that to the word epic. Why not do it to elite too?

Eagles still have a shot at the wild card if they can turn things around and have a really strong finish. They wont be catching the Giants for the division though. If they can't Reid better start polishing his resume.
 
2012-10-31 10:28:27 AM  
Michael Vick is an elite quarterback in the same way that Roseanne Barr is an elite singer.


/Iggles fan
//No, Foles isn't the answer
///Unless they decide to cede the remaining games in the cause of Foles' development
 
2012-10-31 10:28:59 AM  
Well duh. What teammate is going to publically say that his QB sucks?

/Vick is sucking
//O Line is worse
 
2012-10-31 10:32:07 AM  

farbekrieg: what is he going to say, vick at least gives the team an option to win games, you put foles out there and you are telling the vets the season is over.

philly has what, the 3rd easiest schedule from here on out?


Vick has 22 interceptions and 19 fumbles (ok, he recovered some of them) in his last 20 games. How is that giving the team the chance to win games? He's terrible. The Eagles have a decent defense, though they might have farked that up by firing the coordinator mid season. They have a good running back who gets more touches than most of the Philly faithful think. But they do not have a quarterback who gives them a chance to win games against good teams. They'll rally to 8-8 and Reid will get fired. Whatever.
 
2012-10-31 10:40:15 AM  
elite in the NFL is such a joke

either you get results or you don't, that's all that matters
 
2012-10-31 10:41:05 AM  
He probably meant l33t. Cuz everybody knows Mike gets down on IRC.
 
2012-10-31 10:41:22 AM  
Definitely elite - I mean how many quarterbacks are there in this world - 10,000, maybe 100,000, maybe even a million or 10 million or more if you count the pee wees. How many of them can complete even one pass in the NFL? Maybe a few hundred (maybe a few thousand)? Now how many of them can play games at the NFL level? How many of them can play multiple seasons? Just a few hundred max, closer to a few dozen. I'd say belonging to that club makes anyone elite in every sense of the word.

Of course, that makes Sanchez elite too, but there you go.
 
2012-10-31 10:58:02 AM  
Definition of Elite:

1) Shows up on time
2) Tries to do what he's told
3) Hasn't strangled any dogs lately.

Yep, the man is elite.


/// Quota hire elite.
 
2012-10-31 11:00:47 AM  

farbekrieg: what is he going to say, vick at least gives the team an option to win games, you put foles out there and you are telling the vets the season is over.


farbekrieg: what is he going to say, vick at least gives the team an option to win games, you put foles out there and you are telling the vets the season is over.

philly has what, the 3rd easiest schedule from here on out?


They're Iggles vets so... f*ck 'em.

Still, you play the Redstinks twice and the Cowgirls twice...actually, if you had a decent QB, you should have 8 more wins, easily.

(Meanwhile, all my favorite sports teams suck. Even if Jones fires Garrett, he'll just f*ck up the replacement and trade 2nd and 3rd round draft picks to move up 3 slots to get a fragile WR with mother issues and ADD.)
 
2012-10-31 11:01:30 AM  
I don't see why people think that Foles wouldn't be able to perform - pretty much all of the rookie QBs have been pretty decent to good. Even Weeden, despite his awful rating, has been pretty good for the Browns since Week 1.
 
2012-10-31 11:15:53 AM  
NFL QBs by Tier - Within each tier, there is no particular order as they are all replacement level for each other. The list is restricted to QBs that have qualified for ESPN's QBR. Also, these categories can easily change from season to season, ie if Matt Ryan wins a SB, he jumps to top level.

Elites:
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
P. Manning

Top Level:
E. Manning
Roethlisberger

Have the numbers, have the talent, but haven't won a SB:
Ryan
Smith
Cutler
Schaub
Stafford
Rivers
Flacco
Romo

Are who we thought they were, and it ain't good:
Vick
Fitzpatrick
Bradford
Sanchez
Palmer
Freeman
Cassel
Hasselbeck

Getting close to put up or shut up time:
Locker
Newton
Dalton
Ponder
Yo Gabba Gabbert
Kolb/Skelton

Rookies don't count:
Weeden
Wilson
Luck
RG3
Tannehill
 
2012-10-31 11:16:55 AM  

Twigz221: We already did that to the word epic. Why not do it to elite too?


Quoting elite comment in epic thread.

/Seriously, though I agree. My wife works with a bunch of college students and "epic" is creeping into our household. Beowulf weeps.
 
2012-10-31 11:23:53 AM  

roc6783: NFL QBs by Tier - Within each tier, there is no particular order as they are all replacement level for each other. The list is restricted to QBs that have qualified for ESPN's QBR. Also, these categories can easily change from season to season, ie if Matt Ryan wins a SB, he jumps to top level.

Elites:
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
P. Manning

Top Level:
E. Manning
Roethlisberger

Have the numbers, have the talent, but haven't won a SB:
Ryan
Smith
Cutler
Schaub
Stafford
Rivers
Flacco
Romo

Are who we thought they were, and it ain't good:
Vick
Fitzpatrick
Bradford
Sanchez
Palmer
Freeman
Cassel
Hasselbeck

Getting close to put up or shut up time:
Locker
Newton
Dalton
Ponder
Yo Gabba Gabbert
Kolb/Skelton

Rookies don't count:
Weeden
Wilson
Luck
RG3
Tannehill


I'd move Eli up to Elite. Dalton is pretty good. Maybe a different category is needed like "has the talent and is still developing but fan base is satisfied as of now." Weeden, Luck, and RG3 continue to impress me.
 
2012-10-31 11:26:29 AM  

roc6783: NFL QBs by Tier - Within each tier, there is no particular order as they are all replacement level for each other. The list is restricted to QBs that have qualified for ESPN's QBR. ...if Matt Ryan wins a SB, he jumps to top level.

Elites:
Brady
E. Manning
Roethlisberger

P. Manning

Top Level:
Brees
Rodgers


Have the numbers, have the talent, but haven't won a SB:
Ryan
Smith
Cutler
Schaub
Stafford
Rivers
Flacco
Romo


So... you can't be elite/top without a SB win, and you can't be any lower if you have one? It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.
 
2012-10-31 11:30:34 AM  
Romo is the Patrick Ewing of the NFL. Good, even great numbers year after year, decent enough team to get to the playoffs and maybe even a post-season win here or there with impressive QB performances from time to time. But when the game (no, the season) is on the line, it ain't gonna happen.
 
2012-10-31 11:31:21 AM  

This Looks Fun: It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.


There are zero reasons to not have Rodgers in the elite category.
 
2012-10-31 11:31:30 AM  
Hotel California just ain't the same since they fired Don Felder... Oh, those Eagles... Well then, carry on.
 
2012-10-31 11:35:40 AM  

This Looks Fun: So... you can't be elite/top without a SB win, and you can't be any lower if you have one? It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.


Well, there's elite level performance and then there is inconsistent and depending your defense/refs to win. (Rapelsburger). And don't forget that Dilfer existed. Rodgers and Brees have won MVP. I think that could do it alone, if it weren't performing on such high level and winning games with their arm.
 
2012-10-31 11:40:39 AM  
Cam Newton is no where near "shut up time" whoever posted that.

But we're proud you can rattle off a list of QBs.
 
2012-10-31 11:42:55 AM  

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.

There are zero reasons to not have Rodgers in the elite category.


You mean other than losing at home in a divisional playoff game?
 
2012-10-31 11:44:08 AM  

IAmRight: I don't see why people think that Foles wouldn't be able to perform - pretty much all of the rookie QBs have been pretty decent to good. Even Weeden, despite his awful rating, has been pretty good for the Browns since Week 1.


so your arguement is all the other rookies are doing ok so foles should too?

/i would have gone with all the other backup qbs reid has brough in have over performed a few starts before being traded to other teams where they become anchors.
 
2012-10-31 11:45:47 AM  

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.

There are zero reasons to not have Rodgers in the elite category.


I was referring specifically to roc6783's list. And pointing out I think it's a flaw to rank them that way. Really, I think a list like his would be better suited to group QBs as:

Elite (You don't want to play these guys in the playoffs.)
Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Managers/System QBs (If they played in Kansas City they would lose every game.)
Wildcard Players (Exciting to watch, but unpredictable.)
Liabilities (More likely to be the reason a team loses than wins.)
Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.)

I think it's a more realistic interpretation and takes the runner/ thrower /clutch /turnover-prone more into account.
 
2012-10-31 11:47:05 AM  

Komplex: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: It sounds like the only thing determining position is just number of SB wins. In which case, I think you should make the above changes.

There are zero reasons to not have Rodgers in the elite category.

You mean other than losing at home in a divisional playoff game?


One game is a very small sample size that completely removes the performance of the other team and half of his team. Even as a Vikings fan I say this is a weak argument.
 
2012-10-31 11:49:45 AM  

Komplex: You mean other than losing at home in a divisional playoff game?


Well then you can pretty much get rid of all QBs.

farbekrieg: so your arguement is all the other rookies are doing ok so foles should too?


Well, there are these reasons for thinking that putting Foles in isn't a bad idea:
Foles looked better in preseason
Vick has been sh*t-awful
The other rookies have been pretty serviceable

The reasons for thinking that putting Foles in will be tanking the season are:
He's a rookie (all the other rookies having been serviceable at worst negates this)
Preseason doesn't matter (true, but at least he looked good in his only action - that's not a strike against him)
Vick is the starter for a reason (because he's marketable and makes money, which has nothing to do with winning/losing)
 
2012-10-31 11:50:01 AM  
In a related matter, my fantasy squad, "Quiche Cromartie," has dropped DeSean Jackson to pick up a bye week fill in defense.
 
2012-10-31 11:51:37 AM  

farbekrieg: so your arguement is all the other rookies are doing ok so foles should too?


My argument is Vick will be cut next year and the Eagles won't be a Superbowl team this year, so there's no point in starting Vick.

Maybe Foles will be good, maybe he'll be OK, maybe he'll suck. Let's find out.

If he's good, then maybe they're in good shape for the next few years... if he sucks, well at least you found out this year without wasting next year on him. If he's OK.. well that's the tricky part.
 
2012-10-31 11:51:43 AM  

This Looks Fun: roc6783: ***snip***


There is a divide in the perception of QBs with Super Bowl wins and those without, but you can still be an Elite or Top Level QB without a SB win, you just have to have ridiculous numbers. Without a SB, Rodgers is the only one I could see an argument for dropping from Elite to Top Level, the others have proven year in and year out through their careers that they are the best in the league. The next tier down should be titled "Have the numbers, have the talent, but haven't won a SB nor put up Marino-like numbers consistently".

Also, winning more SBs will not make Eli or Roethlisberger into Elite QBs. They are too inconsistent from game to game, year to year, to be easily exchanged with one of the Elite level QBs.
 
2012-10-31 11:54:03 AM  

MugzyBrown: My argument is Vick will be cut next year and the Eagles won't be a Superbowl team this yearfor a while, so there's no point in starting Vick.


Andy needs to go, but I don't think any change in coaching will fix the team in one season.
 
2012-10-31 11:54:16 AM  

MugzyBrown: If he's OK.. well that's the tricky part.


If he's okay, then he's still an upgrade from Vick and has potential to get better.
 
2012-10-31 11:54:53 AM  

This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***


That's a good way to look at it too. How would you slot them using your system?
 
2012-10-31 11:56:02 AM  

roc6783: This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

That's a good way to look at it too. How would you slot them using your system?


Damnit. I was worried someone would ask. Gimmie a few mins.
 
2012-10-31 11:56:50 AM  

This Looks Fun: Elite (You don't want to play these guys in the playoffs.)
Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Managers/System QBs (If they played in Kansas City they would lose every game.)
Wildcard Players (Exciting to watch, but unpredictable.)
Liabilities (More likely to be the reason a team loses than wins.)
Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.)


Also, this is tough - I'd love to face Eli in NY in the playoffs, but he manages to suck enough during the regular season that he usually doesn't have to play there. So he's Elite by that standard, but he's not elite for long stretches.
 
2012-10-31 11:59:17 AM  

IAmRight: MugzyBrown: If he's OK.. well that's the tricky part.

If he's okay, then he's still an upgrade from Vick and has potential to get better.


No that's the worst situation.. you get a guy like Sanchez who looked pretty good as a rookie and pretty good as a 2nd year player and you're expecting him to grow and then you end up sunk with a high paid low to mid-level QB.
 
2012-10-31 12:01:34 PM  

MugzyBrown: IAmRight: MugzyBrown: If he's OK.. well that's the tricky part.

If he's okay, then he's still an upgrade from Vick and has potential to get better.

No that's the worst situation.. you get a guy like Sanchez who looked pretty good as a rookie and pretty good as a 2nd year player and you're expecting him to grow and then you end up sunk with a high paid low to mid-level QB.


to be fair i dont think the jets have a great deal of talent on that team offensively. shonn is a quality rb but after that it drops off significantly.
 
2012-10-31 12:01:51 PM  

IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***


I disagree as I would firmly put Eli in the Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.) category. Same with Romo. They both seem to have every game come down to the wire 8 of 10 times, no matter how well or poorly they play in the first 55 minutes.
 
2012-10-31 12:02:15 PM  

MugzyBrown: No that's the worst situation.. you get a guy like Sanchez who looked pretty good as a rookie and pretty good as a 2nd year player and you're expecting him to grow and then you end up sunk with a high paid low to mid-level QB.


Oh. You don't have to pay him a ton if he's mediocre. The rest of the Eagles aren't taking 'em to the conference championship in each of his first two years, so he won't have that boost, either, unless he's actually good.
 
2012-10-31 12:04:39 PM  

roc6783: I disagree as I would firmly put Eli in the Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.) category.


That's why I don't like his categories.

Eli is in four of those categories without really stretching anything (Elite (I disagree, but I understand the argument and it's pretty good), Winners, Wildcard Players, and Game Outcome Deciders.)
 
2012-10-31 12:07:15 PM  

roc6783: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

I disagree as I would firmly put Eli in the Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.) category. Same with Romo. They both seem to have every game come down to the wire 8 of 10 times, no matter how well or poorly they play in the first 55 minutes.


That category I was thinking more along the lines of guys that are just as likely to throw 4 TDs as they are 4 INTs.
 
2012-10-31 12:09:22 PM  

IAmRight: roc6783: I disagree as I would firmly put Eli in the Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.) category.

That's why I don't like his categories.


Yeah, I'm not married to them. I pulled them out of my ass. I just don't like saying a player is on a scale of 1-10 with no qualifications. I'm trying to qualify the ordinality. It's tough to do off the cuff.
 
2012-10-31 12:11:46 PM  

This Looks Fun: roc6783: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

That category I was thinking more along the lines of guys that are just as likely to throw 4 TDs as they are 4 INTs.


Uhhh...ya, and don't both Eli and Romo fit that? Eli gets the nod in my ranking to Top Level due to SB wins and his numbers have somewhat improved over previous years.
 
2012-10-31 12:12:58 PM  

roc6783: This Looks Fun: IAmRight: This Looks Fun: ***snip***

That's a good way to look at it too. How would you slot them using your system?


Off the top of my head with no data in front of me:

Elite (You don't want to play these guys in the playoffs.)
Brady
Brees
Rodgers
P. Manning
E. Manning

Winners (These guys can be trusted with the ball when the game is on the line.)
Ryan
Schaub
Roethlisberger

Strong Managers/System QBs (If they played in Kansas City they would lose every game.)
Smith
Stafford
Flacco
Dalton
Hasselbeck
Palmer

Underperforming (They have the skills to get better, just need support. This is a transitional category.)
Weeden
Bradford
Fitzpatrick
Locker
Luck

Wildcard Players (Exciting to watch, but unpredictable.)
Vick
Newton
Wilson
RG3
Freeman

Liabilities (More likely to be the reason a team loses than wins.)
Cassel
Sanchez
Ponder
Kolb/Skelton
Tannehill
Yabba Gabba Doo

Game Outcome Deciders (Win or lose, it's in his hands.)
Rivers
Romo
Cutler

Also, I agree with IAmRight; there are several you could put in more than one group, but it really defaults to the highest setting. Like saying a guy who's 6'6" is "at least 6 feet." It's true, but he's also "at least 6'4", so move him up when it makes sense to.
 
2012-10-31 12:14:18 PM  
Also, wow my list is probably the most unintentionally racist thing I've done in a while.
 
2012-10-31 12:15:15 PM  
your failure to add a tebow category 'for those that best exemplify the qualities of his lord and tebowness of intangibles' disturbs me
 
2012-10-31 12:17:10 PM  

This Looks Fun: That category I was thinking more along the lines of guys that are just as likely to throw 4 TDs as they are 4 INTs.


Oh, Eli does the 4 TD at a 2:1 ratio of 4 INT games.

Oddly, all three 4 INT games were against the NFC North (MIN 2x, GB once). And his 4 TD games break down like this: 2 DAL, 2 PHI, NE, STL.
 
2012-10-31 12:17:42 PM  

This Looks Fun: Underperforming (They have the skills to get better, just need support. This is a transitional category.)
Weeden
Bradford
Fitzpatrick
Locker
Luck


its hard for me to accept that luck is underperforming, but then im not sure where else he would fit in this system (too many overlapping categories)
 
2012-10-31 12:19:06 PM  

This Looks Fun: Also, I agree with IAmRight; there are several you could put in more than one group, but it really defaults to the highest setting. Like saying a guy who's 6'6" is "at least 6 feet." It's true, but he's also "at least 6'4", so move him up when it makes sense to.


Well, I mean, then you have to re-rank your groups. Game Outcome Deciders is better than liabilities.
 
2012-10-31 12:20:17 PM  

farbekrieg: its hard for me to accept that luck is underperforming, but then im not sure where else he would fit in this system (too many overlapping categories)


Which is why I like roc's "Rookies don't get rated," and basically putting anyone with more than a year but less than three in the "about time to make a decision on 'em" category.
 
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