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(New York Magazine)   "The Age of Hipster Sexism" Yeah, well, Subbette was making sandwiches in the kitchen before it was cool   (nymag.com) divider line 301
    More: Amusing, Subbette, Hipster Sexism, Lena Dunham, workplace discrimination, sexisms, Archie Bunker, objectification, Dov Charney  
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3751 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Oct 2012 at 2:19 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-30 11:54:17 PM  
Not really sure what the point of the article is. People were oppressed by previous generations and people will be oppressed in following generations.

Welcome to life.
 
2012-10-30 11:56:37 PM  

Flogster: Not really sure what the point of the article is. People were oppressed by previous generations and people will be oppressed in following generations.

Welcome to life.

 
Pretty much. Ironic sexism bears a striking resemblance to actual sexism. Ric Romero reports.
 
 
2012-10-31 12:05:10 AM  
Kind of ironic that subbette's still making sandwiches now that everyone's doing it.
 
2012-10-31 12:13:03 AM  
Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.
 
2012-10-31 12:15:23 AM  

GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.


Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?
 
2012-10-31 12:17:53 AM  
Could I just get a goddamn sammich?

/ham and cheese on rye. with mustard, please
 
2012-10-31 12:18:13 AM  
The point of the article is this:

"One day, perhaps, the worst kind of Classic Sexists (men) will be replaced by the best kind of Hipster Sexists (women)."
 
2012-10-31 12:18:14 AM  

GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.


Well, that's a pretty ignorant statement right there.
 
2012-10-31 12:20:09 AM  

Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.

Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?


That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.
 
2012-10-31 12:21:43 AM  
So what she is saying is classic sexism is bad because it is, but so is hipster sexism because while it accepts the equal roles of men and women it still chooses to make light of female stereotypes. But those stereotypes are ok when they combat classic sexism, which is of course, bad.

Basically, the feminist movement has reached the point of equality and are now fighting to erase stereotypes through ironic t-shirts and shows about hipster women fighting hipster sexism, which is bad, but sometimes good.
 
2012-10-31 12:23:01 AM  

WTF Indeed: which is bad, but sometimes good.


And good farking luck figuring out which is which.
 
2012-10-31 12:23:33 AM  

GAT_00: Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.

Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?

That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.


Again. You have literally no idea what you're talking about. You're like a Republican on a comment board spouting out about how the liberals want America to fall; your opinions have that little basis in reality.
 
2012-10-31 12:23:39 AM  

GAT_00: Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.

Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?

That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.


Yea, like I said, you have an opinion of modern feminism that's based on passing impressions from here and there and no real study of the subject. It's ok. Lots of people do.

It's still a completely factually incorrect assessment, and also, a really narrow way of categorizing an incredibly complex area of thought.

This is my thing. This is what I spend the bulk of my time on. I will flat out tell you now that you would be hard pressed to find two feminists that can agree on an exact definition of what feminism is, and you'd also be hard pressed to find two feminists that take the exact same approach to feminist study.
 
 
2012-10-31 12:28:05 AM  

GAT_00: Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.

Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?

That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.


No, that's the modern feminism as told by the conservative world/PCU script.

What this article is would best be described as a woman who sees gender stereotypes being used for profit. However she lacks the moral confusion that comes with realizing that while roles have equalized and evolved, ironic t-shirt subjects have not.
 
2012-10-31 12:31:50 AM  

Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Genevieve Marie: GAT_00: Modern feminism has utterly gone off the rails. It makes no sense whatsoever. It barely even acknowledges that the sexes are equal.

Know how I know you don't spend a ton of time studying modern feminism?

That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.

Yea, like I said, you have an opinion of modern feminism that's based on passing impressions from here and there and no real study of the subject. It's ok. Lots of people do.

It's still a completely factually incorrect assessment, and also, a really narrow way of categorizing an incredibly complex area of thought.

This is my thing. This is what I spend the bulk of my time on. I will flat out tell you now that you would be hard pressed to find two feminists that can agree on an exact definition of what feminism is, and you'd also be hard pressed to find two feminists that take the exact same approach to feminist study.


So, feminism is kinda like "spirituality."
 
2012-10-31 12:31:58 AM  

WTF Indeed: that while roles have equalized


I actually kind of hate the narrative that equality has been achieved? Sure, things are BETTER. Major, major strides have been made. But do you really thing that if equality in gender roles had been achieved, that reproductive choice would still be a major political issue?

That's a really, really fundamental right, the right to make your own medical choices. And it's still a hot button issue in this country.

Also I mean, have a few months of listening to men with power talk about their thoughts on rape not convinced you that maybe, MAYBE, we might still have quite a bit of work to do?
 
2012-10-31 12:33:23 AM  

Rincewind53: Again. You have literally no idea what you're talking about. You're like a Republican on a comment board spouting out about how the liberals want America to fall; your opinions have that little basis in reality.


My opinions are based on personal experience. It's a given that men and women are equals. It's a given that men and women should be treated equally. These are just basic facts and the success of the origins of feminism.

When it breaks down is that, as Genevieve says, you cannot find two feminists that agree on anything. It is utterly impossible to predict what an article will be about from the starting information of 'feminist-based discussion of topic x.' There's no consistency at all. It's wandering randomly because it's lost sight of the real goals. In need of new writings it is reaching and it does so in ways that make no sense to me.

The problem is that feminism really isn't necessary on anyone under 30. It's an almost universal opinion that men and women are equal and most of the rest are like old racists, set in their ways and only able to say the right words without meaning it. It's why Fair Pay is still a fight - not from the youth but from the older generation that can't be taught. And this is the problem. It's still trying to teach an audience that's listening that already accept the basic precepts.

If you can't get a base definition of what a field of thought is, you cannot have logical cohesion. It just sprawls randomly and contradicts itself everywhere, which discredits itself. That's why I can't stand modern feminism. What good is a theory if it just fights itself without getting anywhere? Interdisciplinary conflicts are how theories evolve, but I don't have a clue where feminism should go and apparently neither does anyone else.
 
2012-10-31 12:36:49 AM  

Genevieve Marie: WTF Indeed: that while roles have equalized

I actually kind of hate the narrative that equality has been achieved? Sure, things are BETTER. Major, major strides have been made. But do you really thing that if equality in gender roles had been achieved, that reproductive choice would still be a major political issue?

That's a really, really fundamental right, the right to make your own medical choices. And it's still a hot button issue in this country.

Also I mean, have a few months of listening to men with power talk about their thoughts on rape not convinced you that maybe, MAYBE, we might still have quite a bit of work to do?


The equality that has been achieved is the base gender relationship. That men and women view each other has equals. Yes, I understand that's not everywhere, but it will continue to be the rule not the exception.

Organizational equality takes far more time. However organizational equality can only take place once the base relationship has been equalized.
 
2012-10-31 12:38:12 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: So, feminism is kinda like "spirituality."


There's a spiritual element to certain aspects of feminist study- Gender roles in religious ideas and how those evolved and how they influenced culture and the suppression of the divine feminine in most mainstream religions. There are some feminists who study and write about just that aspect of it, and there's enough material there to keep talking about it for as long as we keep talking about religion in general.

Then there's feminism in politics, feminism in literature, feminism in... just about every other aspect of culture. When you start discussing what it is to be a man, or a woman, and what the limits of that definition is- I mean, you're looking at basic, foundational philosophy.

People get stuck on the practical elements of feminism- the political goals. That's only one very narrow facet of feminist study.

 
 
2012-10-31 12:42:02 AM  

GAT_00: That entire article blames men for making an ad that features a woman who undoubtedly approved what she said. Modern feminism is blaming men for holding the door open for them because they can hold it open themselves and then getting mad at the idea that women pay for a date. It's utterly nonsensical and inconsistent and comes down to basically men are bad and women are good.


Alternate hypothesis: Lena Dunham sucks, but it's partly because she still hasn't finished throwing off some prejudices traditional patriarchy has helped brainwash her with.

Mind you, I might be prejudiced by my really negative impression of her HBO show; or I may be overcompensating from that, and neglecting the possibility that the problem is she's a nitwit.

Genevieve Marie: This is what I spend the bulk of my time on.


Not sure whether or not you're one of the people I've pointed to Altemeyer's work on high RWA and SDO, but looks like it might be relevant if that's where your interests lie.

High-RWA seems associated to people who think women belong barefoot pregnant in the kitchen making sammiches, and high-SDO to people who think women aren't good for much else. They're independent though overlapping. What the article calls "Classic Sexism" would appear to somewhat resemble the high-RWA type, while the "Hipster Sexism" the high-SDO. 

YMMV.
 
2012-10-31 12:42:56 AM  

GAT_00: When it breaks down is that, as Genevieve says, you cannot find two feminists that agree on anything. It is utterly impossible to predict what an article will be about from the starting information of 'feminist-based discussion of topic x.' There's no consistency at all.


You're going to be hard pressed to find two people who identify as just about anything- Jungians, Catholics, Progressives, etc- who can completely agree on what that means.  Just about any identifier related to a complex set of ideas is shorthand.

That in no way means the ideas are uneccessary or invalid.

And yes, there's interdisciplinary conflict- but feminists actually do typically have quite a bit of common ground. You'd know that if you spent any real time reading, researching, and working to understand feminism.

Which I mean... you don't have to do! Study what you like and what interests you. But if you don't have any particular expertise or experience in an area of study, acting like you can define it and spell out its limitations is pretty intellectually dishonest.

 
 
2012-10-31 12:43:12 AM  
Let's be honest here, gauging success in gender equality by looking how the current republican party acts is the same has judging the success of race relations on how the klan acts.
 
2012-10-31 12:45:11 AM  

abb3w: Alternate hypothesis: Lena Dunham sucks, but it's partly because she still hasn't finished throwing off some prejudices traditional patriarchy has helped brainwash her with.


I find a lot of Lena Dunham's work problematic too. Girls doesn't do it for me- and it's gotten a pretty lukewarm reaction from a lot of feminists.

And no, I haven't read up on that, but I'll check it out. It definitely sounds like something I'd enjoy reading.
 
2012-10-31 12:45:47 AM  

WTF Indeed: Let's be honest here, gauging success in gender equality by looking how the current republican party acts is the same has judging the success of race relations on how the klan acts.


... except the Klan is pretty effectively marginalized in the U.S. and the Republican party definitely isn't.

 
 
2012-10-31 12:47:06 AM  
White people problems.
 
2012-10-31 12:48:27 AM  

WTF Indeed: Basically, the feminist movement has reached the point of equality and are now fighting to erase stereotypes through ironic t-shirts and shows about hipster women fighting hipster sexism, which is bad, but sometimes good.


I'm not sure that's right, doesn't the fact ironic humour exists within a subject matter show things are not equal? Is it possible to own a slave ironically?
 
2012-10-31 12:49:08 AM  

Genevieve Marie: WTF Indeed: Let's be honest here, gauging success in gender equality by looking how the current republican party acts is the same has judging the success of race relations on how the klan acts.

... except the Klan is pretty effectively marginalized in the U.S. and the Republican party definitely isn't.

 


The Klan was created 140 years ago and taken to task 50 years ago. The current GOP party was created in 2000, give it time.
 
2012-10-31 12:49:59 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Which I mean... you don't have to do! Study what you like and what interests you. But if you don't have any particular expertise or experience in an area of study, acting like you can define it and spell out its limitations is pretty intellectually dishonest.


I'm spending enough time reframing criminology into geography, and the urban geographer I'd ask about this kind of stuff is more than a little pissed at me at the moment over something I think is completely ridiculous. She obviously doesn't think so, but that's a whole different can of worms.

I guess I just don't see much point in furthering feminism. Yes, men and women are equal. I just can't see where to go from there. It may have something to do with my positivist perspective in that I don't really consider gender a factor to be considered. Once you accept men and women are equal I don't see the point in discussing the differences anymore, it seems to negate the whole thing. When you're looking at social disorganization, gender equality isn't the problem.
 
2012-10-31 12:52:07 AM  

GAT_00: The problem is that feminism really isn't necessary on anyone under 30. It's an almost universal opinion that men and women are equal and most of the rest are like old racists, set in their ways and only able to say the right words without meaning it. It's why Fair Pay is still a fight - not from the youth but from the older generation that can't be taught. And this is the problem. It's still trying to teach an audience that's listening that already accept the basic precepts.


So basically, you think all systematic sexism was cured in just a couple of generations and everything is hunky-dory now?

You're either pretty naive and sheltered, or you have a pretty low standard for gender equality.
 
2012-10-31 12:54:13 AM  

WTF Indeed: Genevieve Marie: WTF Indeed: Let's be honest here, gauging success in gender equality by looking how the current republican party acts is the same has judging the success of race relations on how the klan acts.

... except the Klan is pretty effectively marginalized in the U.S. and the Republican party definitely isn't.

 

The Klan was created 140 years ago and taken to task 50 years ago. The current GOP party was created in 2000, give it time.



Which I actually kind of agree with. I think some of these ideas about women's bodily autonomy are starting to slowly die off- but it's going to take a lot of time.

However, I originally brought it up to point out the folly of acting like feminism has achieved all of its political goals and that equality has been achieved. It hasn't. Still going to take a lot of time. Truthfully- if I had to point to the one thing I find the most hopeful for the future of modern feminism, it's the tremendous progress made on LGBTQ rights. That's probably the greatest evidence of growing acceptance of less limiting gender roles.
 
I still think we've got a lot of work to do.
 
2012-10-31 12:54:37 AM  

WTF Indeed: The current GOP party was created in 2000


Then why are they constantly invoking Ronald Reagan as their best member?
 
2012-10-31 12:55:33 AM  

mahuika: WTF Indeed: The current GOP party was created in 2000

Then why are they constantly invoking Ronald Reagan as their best member?


They are being ironic?
 
2012-10-31 12:55:42 AM  

mahuika: So basically, you think all systematic sexism was cured in just a couple of generations and everything is hunky-dory now?


I think you can't really solve it until everyone who is alive grew up knowing that men and women are equal. The fight now is to keep the newer generations on the same path. The biggest problems by far are generational like just about everything else in this country. We have to wait for the old people to die so our kids might have a decent world.
 
2012-10-31 12:57:43 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I still think we've got a lot of work to do.


The recent stuff is something of a last gasp. They're realizing they're going out of power, so they're swinging for the fences and using religion as the tool to try to force it back it. They're standing in the judgment of history that's being written against them and they're lashing out.
 
2012-10-31 12:58:30 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Which I actually kind of agree with. I think some of these ideas about women's bodily autonomy are starting to slowly die off- but it's going to take a lot of time.

However, I originally brought it up to point out the folly of acting like feminism has achieved all of its political goals and that equality has been achieved. It hasn't. Still going to take a lot of time. Truthfully- if I had to point to the one thing I find the most hopeful for the future of modern feminism, it's the tremendous progress made on LGBTQ rights. That's probably the greatest evidence of growing acceptance of less limiting gender roles.
 
I still think we've got a lot of work to do.


Which raises my critique of feminism, when / how will we know when it has succeeded? Or is that a male focused view that the issue must have resolution?
 
2012-10-31 01:00:37 AM  

GAT_00: I think you can't really solve it until everyone who is alive grew up knowing that men and women are equal.



Except that in a lot of ways, we're really still not. You can recognize that men and women have equal worth, but that's not the same thing as social equality. That's at best, a first step.

There's a documentary you should watch. It's about the rape of a young dancer who was an extra on the set of an MGM movie in the thirties, and the subsequent cover up by the studio. The thing about it is- it's tempting to treat the entire thing as an unfortunate moment of history, but if you put it in the context of a lot of famous rape cases today- you'll see that actually, there are a lot of things that haven't shifted all that much.

It's called Girl 27. It's on Netflix instant. Check it out.
 
 
2012-10-31 01:04:27 AM  

GAT_00: mahuika: So basically, you think all systematic sexism was cured in just a couple of generations and everything is hunky-dory now?

I think you can't really solve it until everyone who is alive grew up knowing that men and women are equal. The fight now is to keep the newer generations on the same path. The biggest problems by far are generational like just about everything else in this country. We have to wait for the old people to die so our kids might have a decent world.


It's funny how you say these things, yet in other threads you kick and scream whenever a Republican mentions that there is no racism anymore because everyone is legally equal.

Structural sexism is the same thing as structural racism, and pretending it doesn't exist is the same as pretending that racism doesn't exist. Saying "Well, everyone knows men and women are equal, so problem solved" is naive at best and willfully ignorant at worst.
 
2012-10-31 01:04:47 AM  

Flogster: Which raises my critique of feminism, when / how will we know when it has succeeded? Or is that a male focused view that the issue must have resolution?


I don't know that it's a male focused view, I think it's just the view of anyone who isn't familiar with any area of feminist thought that isn't political feminism.

I don't think it will ever fully be resolved, any more than we'll ever resolve the question of why we exist and what it means to be human.

Feminism's not so much a list of goals as it is one more lense with which to critically examine the world around you.
 
2012-10-31 01:05:28 AM  

Rincewind53: GAT_00: mahuika: So basically, you think all systematic sexism was cured in just a couple of generations and everything is hunky-dory now?

I think you can't really solve it until everyone who is alive grew up knowing that men and women are equal. The fight now is to keep the newer generations on the same path. The biggest problems by far are generational like just about everything else in this country. We have to wait for the old people to die so our kids might have a decent world.

It's funny how you say these things, yet in other threads you kick and scream whenever a Republican mentions that there is no racism anymore because everyone is legally equal.

Structural sexism is the same thing as structural racism, and pretending it doesn't exist is the same as pretending that racism doesn't exist. Saying "Well, everyone knows men and women are equal, so problem solved" is naive at best and willfully ignorant at worst.


There's that too. And that's even without getting into the more complex areas of feminist thought.
 
 
2012-10-31 01:10:25 AM  
Hey, as long as I can still call my close female friends "broads" in jest everyone once and a while, I'll be happy with gender equality.
 
2012-10-31 01:10:50 AM  

Genevieve Marie:

There's that too. And that's even without getting into the more complex areas of feminist thought.


Baby steps, you know. I didn't even mention kyriarchical structures of oppression!
 
2012-10-31 01:11:42 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I will flat out tell you now that you would be hard pressed to find two feminists that can agree on an exact definition of what feminism is, and you'd also be hard pressed to find two feminists that take the exact same approach to feminist study.


This is part of the reason I no longer call myself a "feminist." I've had to resort to the much more long-winded "many of my beliefs are held in common with the beliefs and goals of many feminists."
 
2012-10-31 01:12:20 AM  

Genevieve Marie: I don't know that it's a male focused view, I think it's just the view of anyone who isn't familiar with any area of feminist thought that isn't political feminism.

I don't think it will ever fully be resolved, any more than we'll ever resolve the question of why we exist and what it means to be human.

Feminism's not so much a list of goals as it is one more lense with which to critically examine the world around you.


Look at the conversation in this thread. Male voices are trying to resolve the issue, and declare things equal. Feminist voices see this as an organic experience shaped thru time and understanding. There's no disagreement here, simply a differing view on process.

If its a process that's up for debate then it questions the need for a feminist movement. Feminism can be represented thru any number of differing groups or ideologies.
 
2012-10-31 01:12:30 AM  

Rincewind53: Genevieve Marie:

There's that too. And that's even without getting into the more complex areas of feminist thought.

Baby steps, you know. I didn't even mention kyriarchical structures of oppression!


Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.
 
2012-10-31 01:14:17 AM  

Genevieve Marie: Rincewind53: Genevieve Marie:

There's that too. And that's even without getting into the more complex areas of feminist thought.

Baby steps, you know. I didn't even mention kyriarchical structures of oppression!

Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.


I cannot express how much I love that word and how much it has enriched my ability to have discussions about the world.
 
2012-10-31 01:15:44 AM  

Flogster: There's no disagreement here, simply a differing view on process.


Well, there is some disagreement. The voices that claim things are resolved- the natural follow up is "SO STOP TALKING ABOUT THEM". 
 
2012-10-31 01:15:57 AM  

Rincewind53: GAT_00: mahuika: So basically, you think all systematic sexism was cured in just a couple of generations and everything is hunky-dory now?

I think you can't really solve it until everyone who is alive grew up knowing that men and women are equal. The fight now is to keep the newer generations on the same path. The biggest problems by far are generational like just about everything else in this country. We have to wait for the old people to die so our kids might have a decent world.

It's funny how you say these things, yet in other threads you kick and scream whenever a Republican mentions that there is no racism anymore because everyone is legally equal.

Structural sexism is the same thing as structural racism, and pretending it doesn't exist is the same as pretending that racism doesn't exist. Saying "Well, everyone knows men and women are equal, so problem solved" is naive at best and willfully ignorant at worst.


This is the other part of my problem. I feel mistargeted often by all of this, that I'm the one to blame when I'm nothing of the sort. Yes, I'm blaming the racists, but I think I'm getting blamed and not the sexists and that pisses me off a great deal. That I'm the problem for not accepting all of these contradictions in modern thought but it seems like feminism has given up on the real sexists.

I may not be helping myself. As I've said, I am very much not a fan of modern feminism. It's really a personal annoyance. I figured out a long time ago I work better with women. I have no idea why, probably comes from a divorced family and two sisters. I'll inevitably have friction with male bosses and co-workers that is almost never there with women. Beta male personality maybe, but I'm better at taking direction from women. So maybe that's why this crap rubs me the wrong way. Hell, I'm hesitant to post all of this because I'm I have no idea if saying I work better with women than men is sexist; none of it makes sense to me. I accepted long ago that modern feminism and me will simply not work together.

Genevieve Marie: You can recognize that men and women have equal worth, but that's not the same thing as social equality.


I don't even understand this. One follows the other.
 
2012-10-31 01:17:28 AM  

RodneyToady: This is part of the reason I no longer call myself a "feminist." I've had to resort to the much more long-winded "many of my beliefs are held in common with the beliefs and goals of many feminists."


That's not a bad way to state that. For me... I still find it very important to identify myself as a feminist.

I honestly can see equally valid reasons for either approach.
 
2012-10-31 01:18:26 AM  

Rincewind53: Genevieve Marie: Rincewind53: Genevieve Marie:

There's that too. And that's even without getting into the more complex areas of feminist thought.

Baby steps, you know. I didn't even mention kyriarchical structures of oppression!

Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship.

I cannot express how much I love that word and how much it has enriched my ability to have discussions about the world.


Same :) Also, it occasionally makes for really, really funny moments. Last week, a blogger I read declared Nicholas Sparks HIgh Emperor of the Kyriarchy and I laughed forever.
 
2012-10-31 01:24:28 AM  

Flogster: Male voices are trying to resolve the issue, and declare things equal. Feminist voices see this as an organic experience shaped thru time and understanding. There's no disagreement here, simply a differing view on process.


Even this seems absurd to me. It's like a societal version of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus." It seems like a Orwellian duality to hold the idea simultaneously that the genders are equal while also saying that they are dynamically different. You can't have both be true.
 
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