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(Ars Technica)   Windows 8 to the world: I'm pretty on the inside   (arstechnica.com) divider line 212
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8001 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Oct 2012 at 9:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-30 10:46:06 AM  
Yep, another thread filled with 90% of people who haven't used the OS (or used it for 5 minutes) and say how much they don't like being forced to use an app store, can't multitask, and find the interface like a toy.

Meanwhile, those of us who have actually used it for more than a day are like "Yeah, it's blazing fast, doesn't take long to learn and really nice to use."

/posted from a Surface, multitasking with three programs running concurrently, w/ music playing in the background of the OS
//enjoying 12 hours of battery-life and finally having a system-wide spellcheck.
 
2012-10-30 10:47:49 AM  

CmndrFish: Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.


Tablets are the war on general purpose computing. Everything locked down in a walled garden, with DRM everywhere. Don't bother actually trying to *do* things. Consume. Obey.
 
2012-10-30 10:48:20 AM  
This thread has proven what I already knew: the only people more annoying than the Apple fanboys are the holier-than-thou Linux users.
 
2012-10-30 10:49:09 AM  

Flint Ironstag: Dinobot: If there was a way to have the old W7 UI in W8, I might consider giving W8 another chance

/Didn't like the demo we got at work

Classic Shell or Start 8. Both add W7 stuff like Start Button etc to W8. I have Classic Shell and am very happy with W8.


Yeah, the problem is that it shouldnt come to third party software to get that.
 
2012-10-30 10:51:38 AM  

ForgotMyTowel: I have to echo the sentiments of those asking how many of you bashing 8 have actually used it? I say this because I used to bash it along with everyone else. Now that I've switched over I've learned that I was mostly wrong. There are some changes that I disagree with (why no Start Button?) but for the most part those issues are easy to overcome after being on it for 5 mins.....


I'm still on the hating side, though you can use Stardock's Start8 program to add a Start Menu button back in. Check it out here.

My main problem is that after running it on a test desktop replicating our user's interface with it for a few days I still didn't much care for it. I could navigate around it fairly well because I know the Windows keyboard shortcuts. But for someone who doesn't use those daily it'll be a larger learning curve.

And the additional effort involved reformatting and installing vs the performance and feature boosts just aren't there. The features and performance boosts are primarily aimed at portable devices w/ touch screens. I went from Vista to 7 as soon as I could because those were there.

Since I handle the OS roll outs for the company I work for I had to seriously look at Windows 8. The end result of that look was that at this time the training costs associated with the roll out coupled with the OS purchase and installation costs puts this on par with just going to Linux. As we cannot seriously look at that at this time we'll just be sticking with 7 for the foreseeable future.

Windows 8 does, however, look like it'll be great on a tablet or a phone. But I have serious doubts about this OS as a business desktop interface. For our users to be typing on a keyboard and then reach for their screens to select something is not a fluid movement. I'm not saying that's going to be required or that mice are dead, but that's what this OS was designed with in mind and it shows.
 
2012-10-30 10:52:02 AM  

Fubegra: CmndrFish: Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.

Tablets are the war on general purpose computing. Everything locked down in a walled garden, with DRM everywhere. Don't bother actually trying to *do* things. Consume. Obey.


You realize only the Windows RT version is locked down, and that's because it's designed to run on low-power ARM processors - which frankly makes sense. The Surface Pro tablet (and similar devices from OEM's) will run the standard x86 version of Windows - and aren't locked down in any way.

How many legacy programs do you have on CD that are compatible with ARM-architecture?
 
2012-10-30 10:57:30 AM  

Marine1: Is this another thread where people whine about Windows 8?


It's a required ritual every time MS releases a new OS. Only time I can remember all this end-of-the-world biatching and moaning NOT happening was when W7 was released - and it wasn't a new OS - it was just Vista fixed.
In a few months, people will find something else to cry about - they always do.
 
2012-10-30 10:59:09 AM  

Dinobot: Flint Ironstag: Dinobot: If there was a way to have the old W7 UI in W8, I might consider giving W8 another chance

/Didn't like the demo we got at work

Classic Shell or Start 8. Both add W7 stuff like Start Button etc to W8. I have Classic Shell and am very happy with W8.

Yeah, the problem is that it shouldnt come to third party software to get that.


I'm kind of one the fence about this. On the one hand, I see what MS is trying to do. They want to(and soon will with the Surface Pro) off Windows 8 Pro on tablets and other touch devices. Navigating something like the traditional Start Menu and its sub menus on a touch device is extremely difficult at best. Instead, they wanted to make something that would be easy to navigate with a mouse or your finger. They also wanted the interface to be the same whether you were using a tablet, phone, touch enabled laptop or traditional desktop. I think their plan is to have companies issues Surface Pro-type tablets to people in the field and have them come back to their desks and pick right up where they left off, with the same exact OS, UI and programs. That would give them something that Apple and Google cannot.

On the other hand, I'm a big proponent of customization and believe that if you really want to use the more traditional UI, I should be allowed to revert to that capability if I choose. MS basically decided the issue for me and won't let me make my own choice. That's not a good move on their part and one that irks me.
 
2012-10-30 11:04:16 AM  

CmndrFish: Windows 3 sucked
Windows 98 was good sucked
Windows 98 SE was good


I wasn't counting patch levels. Windows 98 was still a good version of Windows back in the day, because it basically just fixed all of the issues they had with Win95, instead of trying to re-invent themselves again.

Windows 2000 was God's gift to the PC world

NT branch. Doesn't count. Their answer to that for the residential world was ME, which sucked.

Windows 8 will not suck, I'm just resistant to change

Not quite, but nice try.

Seriously, I take everybody that is biatching about Windows 8 about as seriously as the people that whine and cry every time Facebook changes.

Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.


Wait what? This myth that the PC is dead is just that, a myth. It has been for the last 20 years.

Microsoft recognizes it. That's why Windows 8 looks the way it does.

Windows 8 looks like Windows 7 with a Windows Phone UI just tacked on. I mean, you get this Phone UI to start with, and then to go to a Windows 7 desktop. They are two different interfaces, and Microsoft completely failed at actual integration. I mean I can't find a better term to describe it other than "half-baked" because it fits so damn well.

This isn't if Windows 7 and Windows Phone had a baby. This is if Windows 7 & Phone were cut in half and sewn to each other, Frankenstein style. This is the Human Centipede version of Windows.
 
2012-10-30 11:05:01 AM  

The_Fuzz: Kit Fister:
ClassicShell or Stardock's windows menu. Doing the shiat Microsoft refuses to do.

The only problem is I run support in a small company. Sure, I COULD install these things and hope MS updates don't F them up, but its a risk. Do those shells get rid of the hot corners, and (no way in hell I'm going to ask my boss to open a "Charm" menu) the hovering crap?


Start8 from Stardock does. You can even change the start button to match Win7's exactly.

The combo of Win8 and Start8 makes it seem like a really refined and fast Win7.
 
2012-10-30 11:06:20 AM  

MadMattressMack: ForgotMyTowel: I have to echo the sentiments of those asking how many of you bashing 8 have actually used it? I say this because I used to bash it along with everyone else. Now that I've switched over I've learned that I was mostly wrong. There are some changes that I disagree with (why no Start Button?) but for the most part those issues are easy to overcome after being on it for 5 mins.....

I'm still on the hating side, though you can use Stardock's Start8 program to add a Start Menu button back in. Check it out here.

My main problem is that after running it on a test desktop replicating our user's interface with it for a few days I still didn't much care for it. I could navigate around it fairly well because I know the Windows keyboard shortcuts. But for someone who doesn't use those daily it'll be a larger learning curve.

And the additional effort involved reformatting and installing vs the performance and feature boosts just aren't there. The features and performance boosts are primarily aimed at portable devices w/ touch screens. I went from Vista to 7 as soon as I could because those were there.

Since I handle the OS roll outs for the company I work for I had to seriously look at Windows 8. The end result of that look was that at this time the training costs associated with the roll out coupled with the OS purchase and installation costs puts this on par with just going to Linux. As we cannot seriously look at that at this time we'll just be sticking with 7 for the foreseeable future.

Windows 8 does, however, look like it'll be great on a tablet or a phone. But I have serious doubts about this OS as a business desktop interface. For our users to be typing on a keyboard and then reach for their screens to select something is not a fluid movement. I'm not saying that's going to be required or that mice are dead, but that's what this OS was designed with in mind and it shows.


I agree about it probably not catching on in a corporate environment. Heck, I think it's something like 50% are still running XP. I also have to evaluate these types of things for my company and my recommendation was to stick with Win7 for the time being. However, I disagree with how hard it will be to retrain people. I think my wife is a pretty good example of a normal computer user and she was able to navigate around pretty easily once she was shown where the Start Screen was. After that, it was pretty intuitive for her. The key in a corporate environment is to make it stupidly easy for users by pinning common apps to the taskbar or on their desktop by default. Then give them a5 minute training session on how to access the Start Screen it's pretty self explanatory from there. For me, the most difficult transition has been figuring out how to quickly and efficiently access the more advanced menus which most users shouldn't be getting into anyway. Obviously YMMV depending on your company but I really don't see it as THAT steep of a learning curve. The Office 2003-2007-2010 transitions were much more difficult, IM0 :)
 
2012-10-30 11:07:57 AM  

peterthx:
Start8 from Stardock does. You can even change the start button to match Win7's exactly.

The combo of Win8 and Start8 makes it seem like a really refined and fast Win7.


Cool, thanks, I'll look into it. The only feature it should add would be sending a cockpunch to Microsoft every time someone installs it.
 
2012-10-30 11:09:14 AM  
I've got it. There's a shallower learning curve for the new GUI then there is with the average facebook profile remake.

//stop whining. if you don't like it, don't use it.
 
2012-10-30 11:09:29 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.


It's a lot better than DOS. In DOS if you wanted to launch a program, you'd have to navigate to the exact directory, and then type the name of the executable. In Win8, as you're typing, it shows you the most likely candidates on your entire system given what you've typed so far, and you can press enter to select. So launching Word is just WinKey + W + O + Enter. Launching Powerpoint is just WinKey + P + O + Enter. It's faster than moving your mouse down to a start button and selecting those programs via the start menu, and much faster than navigating to the right directory in DOS. Win7 also has a similar feature where you can press the start key and start typing out the name of a program, but this is an even faster and smoother experience in Win8.
 
2012-10-30 11:11:31 AM  

The more you eat the more you fart: This thread has proven what I already knew: the only people more annoying than the Apple fanboys are the holier-than-thou Linux users is Linux_Yes.


Just ignore him and the people that reply to him.

/uses Linux, but still can't stand gibberish
 
2012-10-30 11:11:34 AM  
Microsoft even updated the BSOD!

www.geek.com

Now that's an upgrade worth paying for.
 
2012-10-30 11:11:50 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.


It would be nice if when I'm using any Windows 8 computer, mine or a co-workers, that all I have to do to open simple things is Key + start typing. I do this already on Windows 7 start menu -> search, instead of figuring out and memorizing how the hell my Programs folders are organized.

If you're one of these visual people who likes to click, then hey there's this Metro thing...

/you'll get over it. Or you own a Mac.
 
2012-10-30 11:12:16 AM  

MrSteve007: Fubegra: CmndrFish: Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.

Tablets are the war on general purpose computing. Everything locked down in a walled garden, with DRM everywhere. Don't bother actually trying to *do* things. Consume. Obey.

You realize only the Windows RT version is locked down, and that's because it's designed to run on low-power ARM processors - which frankly makes sense. The Surface Pro tablet (and similar devices from OEM's) will run the standard x86 version of Windows - and aren't locked down in any way.

How many legacy programs do you have on CD that are compatible with ARM-architecture?


Why does it make sense on ARM? It frankly doesn't make sense anywhere, especially not from a consumer perspective.
 
2012-10-30 11:12:55 AM  

Darkwing: Curious how many of you have actually used Windows 8. I loaded on my laptop over the weekend and after some time figuring out the navigation and how apps vs. applications/programs run I have to say I really like it. Like anything that's new I've run into some driver/compatibility issues but nothing that's a show stopper. Actually switching back to my desktop running Windows 7 feels clunky now.

/No I don't work for Microsoft
//Works in IT
///Sent from my iPhone (i.e. not a Windows fanboy - if there is such a thing)


I installed a late Release Candidate of Windows 8 on a virtual machine for testing purposes. The configuration of the VM required manual configuration of the network, however the Windows 8 install procedure prompted me to activate the product online before allowing me to log into the system, so I was unable to access the control panel to adjust network settings. I was forced to shut down the virtual machine by force (as no "shutdown" option was available) and bring it back up before I was able to log in. Upon doing so, I was finally able to manually configure network settings and activate the operating system.

I am accustomed to accessing the Start Menu both for navigating to certain tools (such as the Control Panel, which as a system administrator I access frequently) and for searching. I found the Metro replacement to be unnecessarily intrusive and less intuitive, I found the forcing of the Metro interface upon login, requiring manual switching to the desktop, to be infuriating.

A software product that causes me to experience anger when attempting to use basic features is not one that I can recommend for deployment.
 
2012-10-30 11:15:14 AM  
Here's an example of what I've encountered, and what I'm talking about in general. (pops)
 
2012-10-30 11:16:22 AM  

HenryFnord: The NO GO sign for me was discovering that all apps had to be digitally signed and if they weren't they couldn't be installed without rebooting the system in safe mode, and monkeying down into advanced security settings before rebooting and installing the app.


Are you certain of this?

/Deleted my Windows 8 VM yesterday and thus cannot test.
 
2012-10-30 11:17:02 AM  

Hand Banana: SineSwiper: This is all you need to know about how Windows 8 is so badly put together... (also, his other news links and the video at the bottom)

And if that doesn't convince you, remember the ancient rule that always works: "Every other version of Windows sucks."

Windows 2 sucked
Windows 3.11 was good (for being Windows...)
Windows 95 sucked
Windows 98 was good
Windows ME sucked
Windows XP was good
Windows Vista sucked
Windows 7 was good
Windows 8 will suck


Does that mean Windows 1 was good? (also I wouldn't say Windows 95 sucked)


The problem isn't necessarily with the version of windows. Everyone I know who had trouble with Vista, fell into the category of, knows nothing about computers, but think they do. And this handy dandy chart people keep whipping out proves that.

that being said, Since the metro interface is pretty much optional at this point(with the addon that gives you your start button back) The Metro interface crybabies arguments are pretty much nil..


I've installed it to a External drive, ran it through its paces. Sure the interface takes time to get used to, but once you do, you probably wont even notice it. Hell we all got used to new interfaces when smartphones came out(every version) My only Disappointment for it so far, is permissions. I don't like how they are set up atm.
 
2012-10-30 11:17:40 AM  

Edward_Lapine: You know, you don't have to use Metro/tiles if you don't like them. You can switch to the classic desktop with the task bar anytime you want. Heck, you can even have Windows 8 boot right to the desktop. The Metro look was designed for tablets in mind and also I found it easier to use remote desktop from my iPad/iPhone when my PC is in Metro.

It's a decent OS upgrade that feels like Windows 7.5 if you cut out the gimmicky Metro stuff. Makes my PC games run better somehow so I'm happy with it.

/doesn't work for Microsoft. Really guys.


Please explain, specifically, how I enable a standard "start menu" such as those seen in previous Windows versions without installing third-party software.
 
2012-10-30 11:20:15 AM  
Leaked preview of Windows 9:

www.instablogsimages.com
 
2012-10-30 11:20:31 AM  

CmndrFish: SineSwiper: This is all you need to know about how Windows 8 is so badly put together... (also, his other news links and the video at the bottom)

And if that doesn't convince you, remember the ancient rule that always works: "Every other version of Windows sucks."

Windows 2 sucked
Windows 3 sucked
Windows 3.11 was good (for being Windows...)
Windows 95 sucked
Windows 98 was good sucked
Windows 98 SE was good
Windows 2000 was God's gift to the PC world
Windows ME sucked
Windows XP was good
Windows Vista sucked
Windows 7 was good
Windows 8 will not suck, I'm just resistant to change

I'm sure Windows 9 will stop their "re-invention" period, and they'll hunker down to fix bugs and interface problems. That's their biggest problem: they don't know when to slow down to enter a period of bug fixing and instead just release a half-baked product. Then they get reamed as the public rips them several new assholes. Then they fix the bugs. Rinse, repeat, wipe hands on pants.

Not quite, but nice try.

Seriously, I take everybody that is biatching about Windows 8 about as seriously as the people that whine and cry every time Facebook changes.

Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.

Microsoft recognizes it. That's why Windows 8 looks the way it does.

Not to mention that Windows 8 is really a better desktop OS as well. It's significantly faster than 7. Hit the Windows key and start typing whenever you want to open up a program. You'll have it open and be on your way much faster than you ever would be in Win7. This is not in any way a half-baked product, it's a smart realization of a changing industry, and superior to Windows 7 on just about every level. And if you all took 10 minutes to learn how to use it instead of instantly recoiling in horror because it looks different, maybe ...


Funny how people have been telling me for years we shouldn't need to use the command line, yet I find myself having to use it with Windows 8 for daily tasks (shutdown, rdp from the desktop). And here I thought it was my Solaris systems that weren't friendly.
 
2012-10-30 11:21:06 AM  

Millennium: MrSteve007: Fubegra: CmndrFish: Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.

Tablets are the war on general purpose computing. Everything locked down in a walled garden, with DRM everywhere. Don't bother actually trying to *do* things. Consume. Obey.

You realize only the Windows RT version is locked down, and that's because it's designed to run on low-power ARM processors - which frankly makes sense. The Surface Pro tablet (and similar devices from OEM's) will run the standard x86 version of Windows - and aren't locked down in any way.

How many legacy programs do you have on CD that are compatible with ARM-architecture?

Why does it make sense on ARM? It frankly doesn't make sense anywhere, especially not from a consumer perspective.


I like having a Windows OS that appears to be entirely immune to viruses, Trojans, and other malware. Sure, I guess there's a minute chance that someone could slip a malicious program through the curated store, but considering RT can't run a standard executable, plugin, or script, and has a completely unique processor for a full-blown OS, it's not a half bad compromise, especially since it runs smoothly on what amounts to cheap phone hardware and gets all-day battery life.

If you want a more flexible (yet more vulnerable and less battery-life), you can always stick with a x86 tablet.
 
2012-10-30 11:23:51 AM  

Fubegra: CmndrFish: Deal with it, kids. Windows 8 is the future, because 80% of people don't need anything more than a tablet that has Office and a web browser. The full, x86, Windows PC is dead as a device that everybody has one, two, or three of.

Tablets are the war on general purpose computing. Everything locked down in a walled garden, with DRM everywhere. Don't bother actually trying to *do* things. Consume. Obey.


I don't agree with this future for the reason you stated, but it's unfortunately true. People are suckers for the easy to use. See: The 96%ish of all new cars sold with an automatic transmission that, until very recently, was slower and got lower fuel economy.
 
2012-10-30 11:24:21 AM  

wildcardjack: Once upon a time Xerox looked at how humans worked with documents on a physical desktop and translated it to a computer screen.

40 years later we are still humans and work well with a desktop setting of rectangular objects full of information.

Don't screw with the formula.


yep

if anything tablets/touchscreen UI's are going to evolve to be closer to that original vision of a digital desktop now that we're not beholden by the mouse

windows 8's design feels like webtv or aol from the 90's
 
2012-10-30 11:25:23 AM  

skazzytl: So launching Word is just WinKey + W + O + Enter. Launching Powerpoint is just WinKey + P + O + Enter. It's faster than moving your mouse down to a start button and selecting those programs via the start menu


It is not faster. This myth is the most maddening. I'm sitting here with my right hand on my mouse. The steps you left out involve:
-taking my right hand off my mouse
-taking my eyes off the screen and looking at the keyboard
-moving my right hand over to the keyboard onto the proper location
-knowing the name of a shortcut (god help you if it's one of 20 apps that start with "Microsoft")
-typing an unknown number of characters (you didn't want to run µTorrent, did you?)
-taking the right hand off the keyboard and moving it back over to the mouse
-Clicking on the appropriate icon - this step alone was all you had to do in Win7

I don't want to turn this into an ad hominem attack, but anyone who thinks all those steps are the equivalent of hovering over a menu and single-clicking on an icon is delusional.
 
2012-10-30 11:26:51 AM  
I haven't seen the really important questions answered....

1. do my games run faster/better? is WoW performance going to be improved?
2. does the porn get better on windows 8?

Admit it, that's all most of us really want to know?
 
2012-10-30 11:27:28 AM  

Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.


You mean that you actually use the mouse for things that have shortcut keystrokes? It must be agony to watch you do work at a computer.

Lets compare.

You,

click start
click programs
look for microsoft office
oh shiat there are a million items beginning with the word 'microsoft' in my start menu oh there it is
click microsoft office
click microsoft excel

Me,

hit windows key
type excel
hit enter
 
2012-10-30 11:27:49 AM  

kroonermanblack: Linux_Yes: HugsAndPuppies: kroonermanblack: Also am I the only one who still finds windows 7 wierd to navigate? Just not sure if its me aging or windows 7 is just wierd, or if they radically changed everything on purpose etc.

This. XP was easy. 7 is like slogging through mud.


and Linux (mint linux with mate desktop is what i'm using) is like driving your BMW thru a hi tech car wash and hopping on the autobahn in germany (no speed limit) on a early saturday sunny morning with your favorite CD playing.

once you do it, you don't want to go back.

I tried Linux.

Your analogy is more closely related to 'its like buying a beater and spending all your spare time tweaking and fixing and tuning it and then acting like you're a better person than the guy driving a 300,000$ sports car.

Don't you still need wine or an emulator for 90% of computer games? Which means otherwise you have a flat box that's great for browsing and doing spreadsheets etc. which I can do with any system flawlessly.

Seriously, what's your deal? Linux is fine if that's your thing but its just an OS. And it requires a lot more work and effort than 'turn on system' to get and keep running.


THIS. When I was younger and didn't have kids or a wife/GF - yes I could spend my entire day tweaking Linux and the UI and act like a snob for being able to figure it out. But that was then and this is now. I just want a system I can turn on and it'll work like the one I use at the office - not to mention - my office doesn't use Linux and I need compatibility NOW - not after a week of tweaking WINE or OpenOffice to get everything working exactly like I need them.

Not to mention, installing WOW from scratch already takes a couple hours - you think i'm going to play with WINE for a day or two to get it working to the point where I can play? That why Windows will always be a monopoly and the status quo and Linux will always be the system for the geek elite, but don't fantasize that Linux will magically become the dominant OS.
 
2012-10-30 11:30:59 AM  
you know there are these things called shortcuts in all previous versions of windows, you can even pin them to the start bar or the start menu
 
2012-10-30 11:31:04 AM  

Klaumbaz: I haven't seen the really important questions answered....

1. do my games run faster/better? is WoW performance going to be improved?


Admit it, that's all most of us really want to know?


Tom's Hardware have that covered.

Link
 
2012-10-30 11:35:13 AM  
I have not used Windows 8, but here are my thoughts:

1) I was actually going to give it a try. I set up a virtual machine and was going to install one of the consumer previews on it just to take a look at it. Unfortunately, all the consumer previews have vanished... not surprising really, but unfortunate, because I'm not paying to just take a look at it on a virtual machine.

2) I understand there are actually a few third party apps that restore the start button and let you circumvent the new Metro UI. That's wonderful for people who felt the need to upgrade for the under the hood improvements, but I really don't like the idea of needing third party apps to fill out my operating system's core functionality.

3) As for the under the hood improvements, I have a SSD so my Windows 7 is already pretty zippy. Windows 8 might be a little better but it's really not that big of an incentive.
 
2012-10-30 11:37:54 AM  

kroonermanblack: Linux is fine if that's your thing but its just an OS. And it requires a lot more work and effort than 'turn on system' to get and keep running


it may have been a long time since you tried Linux. I use it at home on my 8 and 10 year old machines and what you are saying hasn't been true for quite a while unless you are still using some old school distro.

Try any of the newer ones, Ubuntu, Mint, open Suse and you will see where it is heading. I don't see windows 8 being that popular on desktops. It looks to have some potential on tablets, but I don't own one, so I can't try it on one of those. One good thing is it is going to give me a lot of business installing other operating systems.
 
2012-10-30 11:39:40 AM  

poughdrew: Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.

It would be nice if when I'm using any Windows 8 computer, mine or a co-workers, that all I have to do to open simple things is Key + start typing. I do this already on Windows 7 start menu -> search, instead of figuring out and memorizing how the hell my Programs folders are organized.

If you're one of these visual people who likes to click, then hey there's this Metro thing...

/you'll get over it. Or you own a Mac.


Protip: Just press start (to open the Metro-y menu) and then just start typing. Your search will commence, and it's fast as all hell.
 
2012-10-30 11:47:44 AM  
Just a week back I installed Win 8 RTM version (90-day free evaluation) on a VM using VM Player. The VM runs incredibly smooth. I noticed people are biatching about not being able run win 8 on a VM.

It's not that hard.

This guide is for running it on VirtualBox
Link

Vmware guide here

Link
 
2012-10-30 11:54:19 AM  

CmndrFish: poughdrew: Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.

It would be nice if when I'm using any Windows 8 computer, mine or a co-workers, that all I have to do to open simple things is Key + start typing. I do this already on Windows 7 start menu -> search, instead of figuring out and memorizing how the hell my Programs folders are organized.

If you're one of these visual people who likes to click, then hey there's this Metro thing...

/you'll get over it. Or you own a Mac.

Protip: Just press start (to open the Metro-y menu) and then just start typing. Your search will commence, and it's fast as all hell.


Wow, that is nice. So I guess I don't need Windows 8 after all.
 
2012-10-30 11:55:23 AM  

Linux_Yes: windows has gotten better security wise, but they still have work to do. when games have been written for Linux, they'll run on Linux and they will run faster than they do on windows.

its no accident that Cray's newest supercomputer, the Titan, uses Linux, as do 95% of all super computers in the world. google if you don't believe.



1. Of course games written for a specific OS are going to run well on that OS. That's a no brainer. Also, "they'll run faster" than they do on Windows because, hey, they weren't written for Windows or the Direct X API. Who couldn't have possibly guessed that? Straw men are stupid.

However, if you were specifically talking OpenGL versus Direct X performance, you're so far off the mark it's not funny. There is no inherent "lead" in either API. Both have their places and uses. There are many Farkers who have worked with both. Most seem to prefer (based upon what I recall reading) Direct X as not only is it better documented, it is better implemented and integrated with the largest installed base on the planet.

2. Supercomputers are a breed unto themselves. Stating they use Linux instead of Windows is liking claiming a Caterpillar is better than a Ferrari because it has a diesel engine. Specific tools for specific jobs. I will also point out that Unix has been on mainframes since God was a kid. However, just because Unix has been on mainframes since the 60s doesn't mean it is automagically better. If what was good for big iron was good for desktop OSes, we'd all be running VAX/VMS. Oh, hey, we're not.

Regrettably, you're the worst kind of evangelist for any product. You're ignorant of the realities of the real world and you pop off with trite, long debunked half-truths in an effort to be snarky. I'm glad you like Linux. I'm glad it works for you. However, for many people it does not and will not. You can not undo now almost 26 years of training and have people pick up on your OS of choice because you feel it is "better". "Better" is subjective. Your "better" is their "unbelievably frustrating and why can't I go back and use what I already know?"
 
2012-10-30 11:59:08 AM  
Been running Windows 8 on my daily driver since RTM... Call me crazy, but I like it.

There's a bit of a learning curve, but it only takes a few hours to familiarize yourself with the OS. It took just as long to adjust to Vista/Win7 after running XP.
 
2012-10-30 12:01:10 PM  

syrynxx: skazzytl: So launching Word is just WinKey + W + O + Enter. Launching Powerpoint is just WinKey + P + O + Enter. It's faster than moving your mouse down to a start button and selecting those programs via the start menu

It is not faster. This myth is the most maddening. I'm sitting here with my right hand on my mouse. The steps you left out involve:
-taking my right hand off my mouse
-taking my eyes off the screen and looking at the keyboard
-moving my right hand over to the keyboard onto the proper location
-knowing the name of a shortcut (god help you if it's one of 20 apps that start with "Microsoft")
-typing an unknown number of characters (you didn't want to run µTorrent, did you?)
-taking the right hand off the keyboard and moving it back over to the mouse
-Clicking on the appropriate icon - this step alone was all you had to do in Win7

I don't want to turn this into an ad hominem attack, but anyone who thinks all those steps are the equivalent of hovering over a menu and single-clicking on an icon is delusional.


I'm curious, why do think there won't be an icon to start the program you want? You'll have three options (just like Win 7). An icon on your desktop, an icon on your taskbar or an icon on the Start Screen. You can even do all three if you'd like. You don't HAVE to type the name of the application any more than you did in Win7, which BTW has the same exact feature.

Let's compare worst case scenarios in each:

Win7
Suppose you don't have Word pinned on your taskbar or on the desktop or the Start Menu. In order to get to Word you can click Start>All Program>Microsoft Office>Word.exe or alternatively, you can click Start or hit the Windows key and type "word" which will display Word in a list of available programs.
Win8
Again, suppose you don't have Word pinned on your taskbar, desktop or Start Screen. You can move the mouse into the lower left corner and click, bringing up the Start screen, click apps and select Word from there or alternatively, you can simply Open the Start Screen (either by mouse of Windows key) and type "word". MS Word will appear on the list.

Tell me, how is one easier/harder than the other? The basic functionality is identical. The only difference is the Start Menu is a smaller menu and the Start Screen is a full screen menu.
 
2012-10-30 12:01:52 PM  

Egoy3k: Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.

You mean that you actually use the mouse for things that have shortcut keystrokes? It must be agony to watch you do work at a computer.

Lets compare.

You,

click start
click programs
look for microsoft office
oh shiat there are a million items beginning with the word 'microsoft' in my start menu oh there it is
click microsoft office
click microsoft excel

Me,

hit windows key
type excel
hit enter


Me

Click the Excel icon pinned to the taskbar

Also, how would I start the FFDshow video decoder preferences in WIn8? Typing Excel or Word is pretty simple, but how about the numerous occasionally used apps that we don't know the exact name of off the tops of our heads?
 
2012-10-30 12:05:35 PM  

L.D. Ablo: Microsoft even updated the BSOD!

[www.geek.com image 615x389]

Now that's an upgrade worth paying for.


They can keep the updated UI and all the other features, I would gladly play money for a PC that didn't need rebooting when a software change was made.
 
2012-10-30 12:06:27 PM  

The_Fuzz: The problem with Metro is that it is worthless for multitasking. Want a spreadsheet and a word document open (in a fashion you can use?) sorry, no chance. You really have to go back to desktop mode for multitasking. I've got 3 monitors, and when using Win 8, I basically had to relegate 1 to Metro that gets to run one thing, as opposed to the 7 things I keep running on that monitor now. Things like VLC
Every time you open the start menu, (I HATE the hover-try it in a windowed Remote Desktop session-switching apps is near impossible) it takes over that screen. You can't say, follow instructions on a website of where to navigate to AND navigate the start screen. I really don't know how you are supposed to do anything but media consumption in Metro. Its baffling to me. On a tablet, sure. Desktop? No f'n way.


See, i thought that this would be a problem too.

However, my friend at MS assures me that the new Office will be a Desktop application and you can have as many things open on Desktop as you like. The metro/modern/whatever tile interface is more for the casual user crap (i.e. videos, web browsing, etc).

Also, I think you can relegate some things to parts of the screen. Dragging the metro app from the top to one of the sides puts the video in the sidebar. Haven't tried to do anything else while that's going on, but i'm pretty sure that's why that's there.
 
2012-10-30 12:09:21 PM  

madgonad:
Also, how would I start the FFDshow video decoder preferences in WIn8? Typing Excel or Word is pretty simple, but how about the numerous occasionally used apps that we don't know the exact name of off the tops of our heads?


For me, I right click in the new Start screen, select all apps, browse to and select any of the FFDShow icons.

I don't see how this is any worse than going through the traditional Start menu... It's just as simple.
 
2012-10-30 12:10:56 PM  

SineSwiper:
Windows 2 sucked
Windows 3.11 was good (for being Windows...)
Windows 95 sucked
Windows 98 was good
Windows ME sucked
Windows XP was good
Windows Vista sucked
Windows 7 was good
Windows 8 will suck


95 rocked compared to 3.11. However, being a completely new OS, it had some growing pains, especially with third party software. 98 was only good because '95 gave third party software a chance to catch up.

ME only sucked if you still used real mode drivers. If you used modern software, it was quite an improvement, especially if you needed the network (It used Win2k's network stack and driver model. HUGE improvement).

Windows 2k was God's gift to desktop operating systems.

Windows XP was very poorly received by power users, mainly for aesthetic reasons. Strange that it's the most revered version ow.

Widows Vista had similar growing pains as '95. It was especially bad because it demanded updated drivers, which many hardware manufacturers initially resisted releasing (Why release new drivers when we can sell you new hardware?). Also, Microsoft had been telling developers for a decade to stop making certain assumptions about how the underlying system worked (and the type of access they had). Vista finally enforced that policy, and it seems a decade wasn't enough time for some developers to adapt, so their software broke. Windows 7 was only good because it came out after 3rd party hardware and software makers finally caught up (Well, the vastly improved memory management of Aero helped, too).

Windows 8's changes aren't that big of a deal. The classic desktop isn't going anywhere, and the Start screen is generally better than the start menu, once you get past the "OMG It's different" factor (though, hot corners are annoying).

Of course, understanding that requires the ability to understand more than simply what is obvious.
 
2012-10-30 12:12:44 PM  

Egoy3k: Tyrone Slothrop: And you fail right there. If I wanted to open programs by typing, I'd go back to DOS.

You mean that you actually use the mouse for things that have shortcut keystrokes? It must be agony to watch you do work at a computer.

Lets compare.

You,

click start
click programs
look for microsoft office
oh shiat there are a million items beginning with the word 'microsoft' in my start menu oh there it is
click microsoft office
click microsoft excel

Me,

hit windows key
type excel
hit enter


Apparently you're unaware that the vast majority of people just double click a desktop shortcut.
 
2012-10-30 12:13:03 PM  

Desquamation: madgonad:
Also, how would I start the FFDshow video decoder preferences in WIn8? Typing Excel or Word is pretty simple, but how about the numerous occasionally used apps that we don't know the exact name of off the tops of our heads?

For me, I right click in the new Start screen, select all apps, browse to and select any of the FFDShow icons.

I don't see how this is any worse than going through the traditional Start menu... It's just as simple.


That is actually a few more steps. Start->All Programs->FFDshow->then choose one of the numerous sub-aps within the application. Two fewer steps
 
2012-10-30 12:20:22 PM  

madgonad: Desquamation: madgonad:
Also, how would I start the FFDshow video decoder preferences in WIn8? Typing Excel or Word is pretty simple, but how about the numerous occasionally used apps that we don't know the exact name of off the tops of our heads?

For me, I right click in the new Start screen, select all apps, browse to and select any of the FFDShow icons.

I don't see how this is any worse than going through the traditional Start menu... It's just as simple.

That is actually a few more steps. Start->All Programs->FFDshow->then choose one of the numerous sub-aps within the application. Two fewer steps


Which is pretty much the exact same thing I did, Start, All Apps, FFDShow.

/Or I could simply type ffd, and every FFDShow setting would be listed by time I typed the letter d. You don't have to know the exact names of programs for Windows to find them.
 
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