If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Daily Mail)   Britain's youngest sex change patient wants to become a man again after only a year because living as a woman has made her miserable. Why, it's almost like S/He had major psychological issues that should have been addressed first   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 166
    More: Stupid, Britain, Sunday Mirror, sex steroid, Heavy Rain, swaps  
•       •       •

14814 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2012 at 9:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



166 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-10-30 08:18:03 AM
To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*
 
2012-10-30 08:30:34 AM

Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*


I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.
 
2012-10-30 08:35:14 AM

cman: Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*

I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.


For children? Definitely delay it, in my opinion. The developmental years from child into adult can be very hard on a person. A lot is going on physically and mentally at that time. It may be hard on the child who feels that their sex is all wrong, but I think it's best to err on the side of caution in situations like that, rather than allow a young teen to get a sex change and regret it later.

From what I understand, there is generally acceptable success in sex change operations these days when it comes to functionality and attractiveness of the changed sex organs. However, if one wants to go back to the way they were before, I'd imagine there would be little the doctors could do to make that reversal look pretty.
 
2012-10-30 08:39:45 AM
Some good quality Velcro can fix this problem.
 
2012-10-30 09:27:34 AM
NO BACKSIES!
 
2012-10-30 09:28:03 AM
The Patron Saint of "The Grass Is Always Greener On The Other Side Of The Fence".

Will probably continue to be miserable after reverting back.
 
2012-10-30 09:29:17 AM
Nobody can "become" the opposite gender, one can only become transgendered. There's a difference.
 
2012-10-30 09:29:26 AM
This probably had nothing to do with the equipment he was using. Couple of screws loose up top.
 
2012-10-30 09:31:51 AM
You mean what doctors have been telling people to do for years and not what that special interest people have been crowing? I am shocked.
 
2012-10-30 09:34:10 AM
So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.
 
2012-10-30 09:38:37 AM
*popcorngif*
 
2012-10-30 09:39:11 AM
The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.
 
2012-10-30 09:39:37 AM
I thought you were REQUIRED to have counseling and live as the other sex for at least a year before anyone would give you an actual sex change operation.
 
2012-10-30 09:40:48 AM

theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.


Oh, yikes. I DNRTFA.
 
2012-10-30 09:42:35 AM
Bring back the sanitariums, problem solved.
 
Skr
2012-10-30 09:43:23 AM
Huh, this seems more like a success story of the process working than a negative.
 
2012-10-30 09:44:02 AM
FTA>: She believes ... that returning to being a male will help heal the damaged relationships with her family.

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-10-30 09:44:03 AM

violetvolume: I thought you were REQUIRED to have counseling and live as the other sex for at least a year before anyone would give you an actual sex change operation.


You are. It seems that ze asked to be given a sex change at 15, and then started treatment at 17. Presumably between the ages of 15 and 17 ze was living as a girl. The article is misleading, because it refers to 'after living less than a year as a woman...'. It means after the treatment was started.

/ That first year is very hard, especially for those who have already gone through puberty.
 
2012-10-30 09:44:09 AM

theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.


Yeah, I assume this happens with some frequency and that's why they make you live as the opposite gender for a while. I can see how being confused about your orientation can sometimes lead to being confused about your gender identity too.

/not saying gay people are "confused"
//just that not everyone is sure whether they're gay or not as a teenager
 
2012-10-30 09:46:34 AM

Chinchillazilla: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

Yeah, I assume this happens with some frequency and that's why they make you live as the opposite gender for a while. I can see how being confused about your orientation can sometimes lead to being confused about your gender identity too.

/not saying gay people are "confused"
//just that not everyone is sure whether they're gay or not as a teenager


That may be the case for some gay people, but for this one, I was never confused about my sex, or even my sexuality. I have known since I was very, very young that I was a dude that was into dudes.
 
2012-10-30 09:47:13 AM

theoutlaw: violetvolume: I thought you were REQUIRED to have counseling and live as the other sex for at least a year before anyone would give you an actual sex change operation.

You are. It seems that ze asked to be given a sex change at 15, and then started treatment at 17. Presumably between the ages of 15 and 17 ze was living as a girl. The article is misleading, because it refers to 'after living less than a year as a woman...'. It means after the treatment was started.

/ That first year is very hard, especially for those who have already gone through puberty.


Just realised my *comment* was misleading, too. Ze seems to have been interested in the idea of gender change since 12, formally asking for it at 15, recieving treatment at 17, deciding to stop treatment at 18. There has been no operation, as there shouldn't be, seeing as ze had not been on the treatment for a year.
 
2012-10-30 09:48:28 AM

theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.


It goes beyond that. It's the process working exactly as intended.

JackieRabbit: So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.


Oh, the horror, the horror. But I'm sure people will be along to be OUTRAGED as intended anyway.
 
2012-10-30 09:49:00 AM

theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.


On top of that, all of her misery allegedly stems from the fact that she's been alienated by their family and friends since she began living as a woman. At one point, she basically says "Maybe my family would take me back if I tried to live as a trendy gay man instead of as a woman." and at several other points she brings up experiencing intense loneliness.
 
2012-10-30 09:50:09 AM
It might have been easier to be a chick if she was hot.
 
2012-10-30 09:52:00 AM

mahuika: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

On top of that, all of her misery allegedly stems from the fact that she's been alienated by their family and friends since she began living as a woman. At one point, she basically says "Maybe my family would take me back if I tried to live as a trendy gay man instead of as a woman." and at several other points she brings up experiencing intense loneliness.


It's all horrifically upsetting. I'm not trans, but I have several close trans friends and have encountered it in counselling. Issues with the family are some of the hardest problems they have to deal with. It's like coming out as gay in the 60s. You're already questioning yourself and society is isolating you; for your family to also do these things is a horrible slap in the face.
 
2012-10-30 09:52:27 AM

LowbrowDeluxe: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

It goes beyond that. It's the process working exactly as intended.

JackieRabbit: So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.

Oh, the horror, the horror. But I'm sure people will be along to be OUTRAGED as intended anyway.

jesus farking christ
 
2012-10-30 09:53:15 AM
First: The person in the story didn't have a sex change, he started transition. It's a process, not a state change. From the sounds of it, he started female hormones (and therapy, of course) and that was it.

Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*


WPATH guidelines require a year of living the life of the correct gender (or a damned good reason why that can't happen, and being poor isn't good enough - being in Saudi Arabia is,though.) Most surgeons I've run into also require at least one year of hormones. And you figure out fairly quickly after starting hormones if this is "right" or not; while some people DO have issues down the road, most are from discrimination and/or comorbid mental issues that were previously masked by the gender issues (for example, I have anxiety issues in large crowds - but because I just plain didn't like people previously, I didn't realize that I was more uncomfortable in a room with a dozen people than I was in a room with five or six.) I started hormones on the theory of "I think this is right, but the only way to know for sure is to try it." Within two weeks, I had gotten to the point of "Is this what everyone else feels like? I feel like I did when I was a kid, connected and healthy... it's been a while!" - so I knew that it was for me. If I hadn't felt that way, I would have stopped hormones within a few months.

cman: I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.


Agreed, mostly. Children should be allowed to be children, not forced to fit a mold of being cisgender or transgender. On the other hand, stopping hormones before they take effect ALSO screws up the body, possibly worse... it's a conundrum.

---

One last note: I've considered detransitioning. Not all of my days are good days; sometimes they are very bad days. When I get called "sir" by people that have never met me before, when I get called "he" by coworkers that have not been told I transitioned, when I get the stinkeye for daring to use a public bathroom... those all hurt. When Cathy Brennan calls me a freak, when Roseanne Barr says "if she has a penis she is not allowed in", when my half-sister tells me that her husband doesn't really want to see or talk to me - I wonder "what's the point?"

I'll always be a woman, but sometimes I want those hurts to go away. Then I remember what I felt like when I was crossdressing (that is, pretending to be male) and I realize that this is worth any pain in the world.

mahuika: On top of that, all of her misery allegedly stems from the fact that she's been alienated by their family and friends since she began living as a woman. At one point, she basically says "Maybe my family would take me back if I tried to live as a trendy gay man instead of as a woman." and at several other points she brings up experiencing intense loneliness.


The loneliness part sucks for many transgender people. Fortunately for me, the half-sister and her husband are the only ones that seem to outright mind, though my father has apparently started outing me to my friends (that knew already, but he didn't know that!)... Everyone else in the family seems to prefer Karen to my old self.
 
2012-10-30 09:56:51 AM
shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.
 
2012-10-30 09:57:20 AM

cman: Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*

I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.


There is an easy answer: no sex change operations for anyone under the age of 25. Period. By then you've pretty much gotten the whole gender thing figured out, whether you want to come out to your family and friends about it being a separate question (some people suffer in silence for many years, which is unfortunate).

If I had my way though, the doctor that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old would have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked--unethical in the one of the worst possible ways.
 
2012-10-30 09:59:18 AM
So I can't tell from TFA if he got his weener cut off or not.
 
2012-10-30 09:59:25 AM

Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*


In most instances (in Canada at least), you need to live as the gender you are transitioning to for at least a year. That should always be the case. They also have to undergo hormone therapy well before the surgery.

I have to also agree that gender reassignment surgery should not be made available to anyone under 18. You've got enough shiat to deal with at that point.
 
2012-10-30 10:02:06 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


There's more to gender than c

Cythraul: Chinchillazilla: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

Yeah, I assume this happens with some frequency and that's why they make you live as the opposite gender for a while. I can see how being confused about your orientation can sometimes lead to being confused about your gender identity too.

/not saying gay people are "confused"
//just that not everyone is sure whether they're gay or not as a teenager

That may be the case for some gay people, but for this one, I was never confused about my sex, or even my sexuality. I have known since I was very, very young that I was a dude that was into dudes.


Same here. There was never a question that I was a guy. I just happened to be sexually attracted to other guys.
 
2012-10-30 10:04:12 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.
 
2012-10-30 10:04:26 AM

hdhale: cman: Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*

I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.

There is an easy answer: no sex change operations for anyone under the age of 25. Period. By then you've pretty much gotten the whole gender thing figured out, whether you want to come out to your family and friends about it being a separate question (some people suffer in silence for many years, which is unfortunate).

If I had my way though, the doctor that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old would have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked--unethical in the one of the worst possible ways.


25? That's an arbitrary number, to be sure. Did you feel you could make decisions about your body at age 24? I think you probably did. Gosh, I'm only 21 in a week, but I've been making decisions about my body for a good few years now.
We have an age of adulthood for a reason: at this age, people are responsible for themselves, they are able to make life decisions and control their own bodies.
Would you like your parents making decisions about your healthcare (say, having heart surgery) when you've been living in a different part of the country for seven years, are married, can vote, own an apartment...

Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to transition. You're putting their mental health at risk.
 
2012-10-30 10:04:58 AM

JackieRabbit: So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.


bingo. he's not even qualified to relate well to bisexual bi-polar folks. hope he gets the help he needs. life is really tough for some.
 
2012-10-30 10:05:21 AM

hdhale: If I had my way though, the doctor that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old would have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked--unethical in the one of the worst possible ways.


Good thing that there was no surgeon that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old since the girl in the article hasn't had surgery. Way to read the article.

Also, nowhere did she say that she didn't really feel like a woman, or that she was happier in her old body. Only that female hormones made her moody (well duh) and that her family had completely disowned her. It's basically a sad situation that would be so much better if people stopped so much caring who had a penis and who didn't.
 
2012-10-30 10:05:49 AM
Cythraul 2012-10-30 08:35:14 AM


cman: Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*

I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.

For children? Definitely delay it, in my opinion. The developmental years from child into adult can be very hard on a person. A lot is going on physically and mentally at that time. It may be hard on the child who feels that their sex is all wrong, but I think it's best to err on the side of caution in situations like that, rather than allow a young teen to get a sex change and regret it later.

From what I understand, there is generally acceptable success in sex change operations these days when it comes to functionality and attractiveness of the changed sex organs. However, if one wants to go back to the way they were before, I'd imagine there would be little the doctors could do to make that reversal look pretty.



THIS.

I have a guy friend who wanted to go under the knife at 16 because he wanted to be a woman, his family and friends wanted him to just wait until he entered college. Now he's a perfectly happy gay man and is happy to have stayed male. I also have another guy friend who at 20 went from male to female, amazingly, kept his girlfriend through the whole thing, and they happily live as lesbians in LA, six years later.

I just think the teenage years are hard enough, and if you just wait until you're done developing, you may want something else. It's like anything- buying a car, getting plastic surgery, etc. Do your research, think about it good and hard, and consult with people to get their opinions before you do something this major.
 
2012-10-30 10:10:39 AM

theoutlaw: 25? That's an arbitrary number, to be sure. Did you feel you could make decisions about your body at age 24? I think you probably did. Gosh, I'm only 21 in a week, but I've been making decisions about my body for a good few years now.
We have an age of adulthood for a reason: at this age, people are responsible for themselves, they are able to make life decisions and control their own bodies.
Would you like your parents making decisions about your healthcare (say, having heart surgery) when you've been living in a different part of the country for seven years, are married, can vote, own an apartment...

Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to transition. You're putting their mental health at risk.


Background: I am completely supportive of the full gender identity and sexuality spectra.

However, to stir up the pot a little, in the small anecdotal sample size that I have experience with (n = 3), there is unlimited drama involved when people start the hormonal change in college. People who are effectively going through a second puberty, stuffed in a concentrated environment with others who have just gotten done going through that shiat and are trying to figure out their adult selves, make for one hell of a mix.

I, unscientifically, wonder if it might be better to begin identifying and dressing one's identified gender, but starting the physical transformation (hormones, surgery, etc) after college. All with heaps of counseling and guidance, of course.

Trans people aren't 'broken', but they have heaps of shiat to deal with and I wonder if breaking it out into smaller chunks over a longer period of time might make it more manageable.
 
2012-10-30 10:12:52 AM

dv-ous: FTA>: She believes ... that returning to being a male will help heal the damaged relationships with her family.

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 500x343]


Well, time and penises heal all wounds.
 
2012-10-30 10:13:38 AM
Going to the newspapers with a sensational sex change reversal process and making the point that your family has made you feel miserable, and having a lot of photos taken, removing any ambiguity of who the story is about looks like a terrible way to reverse a sex change process and reconcile with your family.
 
2012-10-30 10:14:07 AM
So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.
 
2012-10-30 10:19:09 AM

soze: Background: I am completely supportive of the full gender identity and sexuality spectra.

However, to stir up the pot a little, in the small anecdotal sample size that I have experience with (n = 3), there is unlimited drama involved when people start the hormonal change in college. People who are effectively going through a second puberty, stuffed in a concentrated environment with others who have just gotten done going through that shiat and are trying to figure out their adult selves, make for one hell of a mix.

I, unscientifically, wonder if it might be better to begin identifying and dressing one's identified gender, but starting the physical transformation (hormones, surgery, etc) after college. All with heaps of counseling and guidance, of course.

Trans people aren't 'broken', but they have heaps of shiat to deal with and I wonder if breaking it out into smaller chunks over a longer period of time might make it more manageable.


Everybody is broken. I don't know a single person that isn't broken on some level. Some of us are more broken than others; some of us have patched together something worthwhile from our brokenness, but we're all broken.

As for your question - I'd argue that identifying and dressing as the identified gender *without* taking the hormones is a bad idea, especially in that kind of environment. I'd argue for remaining visually the birth sex while taking the hormones, if only one is possible. But then again I was taking hormones for seven months before I started the "visible" part of my transition - and even then the main impetus was "I'm not going to wear a binder, and my breasts are starting to become visible - it's time to shiat or get off the pot". Yes, I wanted to transition eventually, but...
 
2012-10-30 10:19:32 AM

Galvatron Zero: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

There's more to gender than cCythraul: Chinchillazilla: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

Yeah, I assume this happens with some frequency and that's why they make you live as the opposite gender for a while. I can see how being confused about your orientation can sometimes lead to being confused about your gender identity too.

/not saying gay people are "confused"
//just that not everyone is sure whether they're gay or not as a teenager

That may be the case for some gay people, but for this one, I was never confused about my sex, or even my sexuality. I have known since I was very, very young that I was a dude that was into dudes.

Same here. There was never a question that I was a guy. I just happened to be sexually attracted to other guys.


Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.
 
2012-10-30 10:21:06 AM

kiwimoogle84: Cythraul 2012-10-30 08:35:14 AM


cman: Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*

I love the transgendered folk to death, but there are many ethical issues that still need to be addressed. For instance, should we give drugs to children to stifle puberty? Should we allow children to have sex changes?

IMO, the child years are probably not the best to fark around with. When they become adults, that is fine, but children, its hard, lol. God I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.

For children? Definitely delay it, in my opinion. The developmental years from child into adult can be very hard on a person. A lot is going on physically and mentally at that time. It may be hard on the child who feels that their sex is all wrong, but I think it's best to err on the side of caution in situations like that, rather than allow a young teen to get a sex change and regret it later.

From what I understand, there is generally acceptable success in sex change operations these days when it comes to functionality and attractiveness of the changed sex organs. However, if one wants to go back to the way they were before, I'd imagine there would be little the doctors could do to make that reversal look pretty.


THIS.

I have a guy friend who wanted to go under the knife at 16 because he wanted to be a woman, his family and friends wanted him to just wait until he entered college. Now he's a perfectly happy gay man and is happy to have stayed male. I also have another guy friend who at 20 went from male to female, amazingly, kept his girlfriend through the whole thing, and they happily live as lesbians in LA, six years later.

I just think the teenage years are hard enough, and if you just wait until you're done developing, you may w ...


Thats probably the best course. As teenagers what you want changes from day to day, sometimes even from minute to minute. Though some do know for sure what they want, its just not common, but still should give it time and lots of thought. I wouldnt want to have a sex changes at all, I like what I have as it is. Though I could see how some guys may want to give it up for a magnificent set of tits. Though I do seriously wonder how many of the male to female transgenders have trouble keeping their own hands off their new boobs? I know my personal mindset and I would play with them endlessly and ask people if they wanted to see them, lol.
 
2012-10-30 10:22:32 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.


I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!
 
2012-10-30 10:24:19 AM

Wollffeey: So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.


Heh. I know a few genderqueer people that have made that exact argument about why they considered transitioning to male.

Personally, I don't find them to be too unbearable... except for the time I missed my Depo-Estradial injection and for an insane reason decided to hold off a few days on getting it.
 
2012-10-30 10:25:31 AM
You see, this is why the whole idea is insane and practiced by insane people. You want the operations? Pay full book price yourself and leave all of us out of it. And stay out of the media and politics surrounding the issue.
 
2012-10-30 10:27:09 AM

Apok451: Thats probably the best course. As teenagers what you want changes from day to day, sometimes even from minute to minute. Though some do know for sure what they want, its just not common, but still should give it time and lots of thought. I wouldnt want to have a sex changes at all, I like what I have as it is. Though I could see how some guys may want to give it up for a magnificent set of tits. Though I do seriously wonder how many of the male to female transgenders have trouble keeping their own hands off their new boobs? I know my personal mindset and I would play with them endlessly and ask people if they wanted to see them, lol.


... Believe me, it takes effort. Though I don't ask other people if they want to see them; the one time someone other than my wife/doctors asked to see them I handed them a breast*form*.
 
2012-10-30 10:29:21 AM

Cythraul: I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.


Pom-poms. And you call yourself gay.
 
2012-10-30 10:36:21 AM
Be honest with yourself.
If you look in the mirror and see a guy. I mean, literally SEE a guy. Not like, "I know who I am". I mean, the facial structure, the body structure etc.
Just move on. It would take a miracle for you to come out looking like a normal woman. That or just Scrooge McDuck money.

Here's the deal. Frankenstein. If Frankenstein's creation was beautiful he would have been loved. He would have never hurt anyone. His creation even explains it in detail in the book. It's the same deal. If you look at yourself and think you can pull it off, kudos. But lets face it, there is a high probability that you will come out somewhere in the middle.

People will look at you and wince. People will say, my God. Family will be ashamed and abhored.
Or.
People will look at you and applaud your beauty. People will say, my God! Family will be supportive and receptive to your lifestyle choices.

Some people are willing to accept that chance, no matter what. But damn, someone with a fragile constitution would have a wicked hard time. Especially if it goes wrong.
 
2012-10-30 10:36:46 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: Cythraul: I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

Pom-poms. And you call yourself gay.


Whoops!
 
2012-10-30 10:38:37 AM

Exception Collection: Wollffeey: So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.

Heh. I know a few genderqueer people that have made that exact argument about why they considered transitioning to male.

Personally, I don't find them to be too unbearable... except for the time I missed my Depo-Estradial injection and for an insane reason decided to hold off a few days on getting it.


Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.
 
2012-10-30 10:39:32 AM

Chameleon: hdhale: If I had my way though, the doctor that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old would have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked--unethical in the one of the worst possible ways.

Good thing that there was no surgeon that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old since the girl in the article hasn't had surgery. Way to read the article.

Also, nowhere did she say that she didn't really feel like a woman, or that she was happier in her old body. Only that female hormones made her moody (well duh) and that her family had completely disowned her. It's basically a sad situation that would be so much better if people stopped so much caring who had a penis and who didn't.


if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.
 
2012-10-30 10:40:35 AM

Wollffeey: Exception Collection: Wollffeey: So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.

Heh. I know a few genderqueer people that have made that exact argument about why they considered transitioning to male.

Personally, I don't find them to be too unbearable... except for the time I missed my Depo-Estradial injection and for an insane reason decided to hold off a few days on getting it.

Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.


I know I'm happy being a man. It seems in order for women to be able to physically carry a developing human before birth, they have to go through a lot of biological crap.
 
2012-10-30 10:42:32 AM

LowbrowDeluxe: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

It goes beyond that. It's the process working exactly as intended.

JackieRabbit: So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.

Oh, the horror, the horror. But I'm sure people will be along to be OUTRAGED as intended anyway.


That. Plus, apparently, his family kicked him out, and he's unemployed and effectively homeless. But no, the only possible reason for his depression must be the sex change. Outrage!
 
2012-10-30 10:42:48 AM
Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.
 
2012-10-30 10:43:25 AM

Cythraul: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.


Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.

From an armchair not-qualified-to-be-any-sort-of-psych's view, it seems like playing dress up, or even (semi?) permanently wearing a costume doesn't act as a sort of magical panacea that it's sometimes believed to be. The resultant letdown makes things worse - and that's not even taking into account the potentially negative impact from society. Those are just my guesses though.

What I find more interesting is the whole transgender concept. In my limited experience with male-to-female TGs, I note that they seem to define women based on cultural sterotypes. How they dress, what jobs they view as suitable, etc. Superficial changes like a dress or body shape define intrinsic 'femaleness' - when it's obvious that's just a cultural norm. Further research noted that - again, in the US only - there's a strong correlation between male-to-female TG's and being raised by a single mother, or being the youngest son. (I can't google for these links right now thanks to filters).

This isn't the case in other countries, such as Thailand.

What the armchair-psych in me says, is that perhaps in the US many of these individuals actually aren't transgender, but rather, at odds with themselves and society, and can probably obtain happiness by introspection, therapy, and time - as per kiwimoogle84's example.

Of course, by suggesting this, it means that both the anti-tg and pro-tg crowd will see me as the enemy. Oh well, it's not like I'm expecting either of them to engage rationally in what's obviously an emotionally charged issue with little common sense apparent. :)
 
2012-10-30 10:43:30 AM

SevenizGud: Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.


Are you saying you want to destroy yourself? That's kinda weird.
 
2012-10-30 10:43:48 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


Meh... 1/10. Come up with something more unique next time...
 
2012-10-30 10:43:51 AM

Wollffeey: Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.


/nods

One of the people - my wife - has a fairly severe case of PCOS. She can't take "normal" hormonal meds to control it anymore; she had a DVT (multiple clots) and almost died because of the increased blood clotting (combined with other issues). She was in the hospital for a week!
 
2012-10-30 10:46:15 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


And if you're XXY? Or XYY? Or XXYY? Or XY but have AIS? Or XX but have a translocated SRY gene? Shiat, dude, parroting that old elementary-school level of science only makes you look ignorant and naive.
 
2012-10-30 10:47:57 AM
Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.
 
2012-10-30 10:49:16 AM

quietwalker: Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.


I really don't know what that means.
 
2012-10-30 10:51:01 AM

quietwalker: Cythraul: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.

Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.

From an armchair not-qualified-to-be-any-sort-of-psych's view, it seems like playing dress up, or even (semi?) permanently wearing a costume doesn't act as a sort of magical panacea that it's sometimes believed to be. The resultant letdown makes things worse - and that's not even taking into account the potentially negative impact from society. Those are just my guesses though.

What I find more interesting is the whole transgender concept. In my limited experience with male-to-fem ...


newsletter, subscription, blah blah blah
 
2012-10-30 10:52:39 AM
quietwalker
What the armchair-psych in me says, is that perhaps in the US many of these individuals actually aren't transgender, but rather, at odds with themselves and society, and can probably obtain happiness by introspection, therapy, and time - as per kiwimoogle84's example.



The only thing I find a bit disturbing is that my friend who got the sex change? He went through less counseling for it than I had to when I was discussing getting my tubes tied. For whatever reason, it's as if me choosing not to have children is more of a major decision than ALTERING MY BODY. I can always adopt later in life, but no, I choose not to have kids, and I had to get like six different doctors to sign off on it because I was under 25 and childless.

It's a tragedy that people are sometimes trapped in the wrong gender body, but someone upthread discussed that yes- a chiseled jaw and 6'4 and hairy does not a pretty lady make. You'll have a hard time, trust me. Meanwhile, a guy who's 5'5 and waifish and blonde? Sure, you'd probably pass. Heck, I have masculine features myself, and I'm amazed I look as feminine as I do sometimes.

It comes down to what you're sure you want. Whatever your choice, it's not exactly easy to go back, so be certain.
 
2012-10-30 10:53:57 AM

Exception Collection: Wollffeey: Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.

/nods

One of the people - my wife - has a fairly severe case of PCOS. She can't take "normal" hormonal meds to control it anymore; she had a DVT (multiple clots) and almost died because of the increased blood clotting (combined with other issues). She was in the hospital for a week!


Geez, I hope that's not waiting in the wings for me. All this trouble just to be able to have a kid (and I'm not even sure if I *can* get pregnant). Oh well. Life and lemons.
 
2012-10-30 10:56:32 AM
If kids can't vote, drive a car, or drink , ( Make decisions for themselves) Then this should be reserved for adults.

Kids are confused anyway and just feeding everything they think of is not healthy. How many times do they change the idea of jobs when their older. I don't know about you but I think we need to concentrate on being whole people as we are born into. Genitals should never make one feel wrong. I'm not saying this for everyone. but a child should not hate him or herself for what they are looking like.
 
2012-10-30 10:59:46 AM
Wrong subby, it was born that way.
 
2012-10-30 11:00:47 AM

frepnog: if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.


Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?

Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation. Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue. Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies, to have brains that contain areas resembling brains of the other sex. Here's just a few:
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
This one's in Nature:A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

So believe what you want about transsexuality being purely psychological. Science suggests that you are wrong.
 
2012-10-30 11:04:26 AM
By the way, from that Nature paper:

Here we show that the volume of ...a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation.
 
2012-10-30 11:16:14 AM

SevenizGud: Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.


Wow, dude...you make me farking sick
 
2012-10-30 11:17:58 AM
cman:

I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.

There is: wanting a sex change operation is a strong indicator of a serious psychological problem. Gender does not equal sex; instead people should learn to live as feminine men or masculine women. Make society change for you, not the other way around.

And if adults insist on mutilating themselves that's fine, but sex change "treatments" should be denied to anyone under 18. It's at least as serious as voting, right?

And by the way, the drinking age should be lowered to 18 for beer and wine, like it was in MD when I was that age, or the Age of Majority should be raised to 21 across the board.

There should also be free public Euthanasia Centres set up at least in every major city, where adults can go to have themselves peacefully and gently "out to sleep."

Yet abortion, of course, should be provided free and in complete confidentiality to all women of childbearing age. The only qualifications should be a) pregnancy and b) the desire the end it; if you're old enough to have gotten pregnant you're old enough to abort. If that includes "odd" cases one reads about, such as the 8 year old girl in Brazil who got knocked up by her mother's boyfriend, then so be it: the kid's already been molested, why force her to be a mother on top of it?

Easy answers are easily arrived at, as they should be by any relatively well-informed, clear-headed and intelligent person: that's what makes them easy answers.

The problem is counteracting all the BS that "society" and "the media" brainwash people with, such as when somebody urges prayer to turn a hurricane (perhaps onto another area full of people) instead of getting to higher and drier ground. But then belief in a personal God who can affect such things is in itself a strong sign of serious psychological issues; perhaps such people can be encouraged to "go to Heaven" at free public euthanasia centres.

This PSA has been provided to you free of charge in the discharge of my civic duties as a citizen of the world and a netizen of cyberspace. You're very welcome.
 
2012-10-30 11:26:01 AM

Theaetetus: And if you're XXY? Or XYY? Or XXYY? Or XY but have AIS? Or XX but have a translocated SRY gene? Shiat, dude, parroting that old elementary-school level of science only makes you look ignorant and naive.


I just checked my label. Apparently I'm a YKK.
 
2012-10-30 11:35:45 AM
Cythraul:
FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.


I'm not sure WTF I thought you were talking about here...

POM POMS
 
2012-10-30 11:36:57 AM
This is what happens when you indulge teenagers and their angst-ridden problems.
 
2012-10-30 11:37:17 AM

Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!


What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?
 
2012-10-30 11:37:45 AM

No Such Agency: Cythraul:
FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

I'm not sure WTF I thought you were talking about here...

POM POMS


Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.
 
2012-10-30 11:39:13 AM
seniorgato:

Be honest with yourself.
If you look in the mirror and see a guy. I mean, literally SEE a guy. Not like, "I know who I am". I mean, the facial structure, the body structure etc.
Just move on. It would take a miracle for you to come out looking like a normal woman. That or just Scrooge McDuck money.


This too.

I'm sure I'd be even uglier in drag.
 
2012-10-30 11:39:28 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!

What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?


I"m a gay male. My gross incestual incestuous games were reserved for me and my brothers.
 
2012-10-30 11:42:50 AM
The earth is flat!- You are crazy!

The government may have done 9/11 to start a war for profit among the presidents friends at the time- You are crazy!

Aliens are beaming signals into my brain!- You are crazy!

I am jesus- You are crazy!

I am a woman trapped in a mans body and my penis is causing me emotional distress!- Such a brave soul, welcome to society!
 
2012-10-30 11:49:46 AM
According to the article, he didn't have the peener removed yet, so essentially this must involve getting off the hormone treatments and waiting until the boobies recede. Basically I think anyone who wants to have a sex change is deranged, so I guess psychological therapy shouldn't be required before they do it.
 
2012-10-30 11:51:35 AM
Sad. Aren't you supposed to "walk a mile in their shoes" for a year or longer before they start any kind of hormone or other therapy? Maybe they did but it seems like this person could have changed his (her?) mind before the therapy. Regardless, I really don't think something like this should be done on a person going through puberty. I mean, that shiat is confusing enough without throwing more hormones of any sort into the mix.
 
2012-10-30 11:52:29 AM

Chameleon: frepnog: if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?

Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation. Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue. Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies, to have brains that contain areas resembling brains of the other sex. Here's just a few:
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
This one's in Nature:A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

So believe what you want about transsexuality being purely psychological. Science suggests that you are wrong.


and yet here we are, with sex changes usually not fixing the issue. i get that there is scientific data backing up what you say, I really do, and I am not trying to disparage the transgender person. Whatever gets you thru the day without pulling the trigger is cool with me. I really thing however that a large percent of the transgender community would be much better off learning to be happy with what they have and trying to build a relationship with a person of the gender that they are attracted to, instead of opting for surgery that solves nothing and wearing what amounts to a costume for the rest of their life while taking meds to try and fool their body into believing that it is something that is quite IS NOT.

for alot of those people, admitting to themselves that they are probably gay would solve more issues that chopping off their dick. because let's face it - admitting to oneself that one is gay is farking HARD, not to mention admitting it to friends\family. SHOULD it be? probably not, but shiat is what shiat is.
 
2012-10-30 11:57:01 AM

quietwalker: Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.


Nope. In fact, all three GQ people I know are female-sexed at birth.

Genderqueer means that you don't feel a feeling of belonging to either sex; many of them have considered transition but decided that it's not worth the issues to solve what they consider an inconvenience more than a problem - for example, having periods or expecting to meet womanly expectations.
 
2012-10-30 12:01:34 PM
Those female hormones aren't all they're cracked up to be, eh? Little bit scary at times? Yeah, same here.
 
2012-10-30 12:03:39 PM
Not sure how admitting that one is gay is harder than admitting that one us trapped in the wing gender's body?
 
2012-10-30 12:04:37 PM
Jeeeeeez. iPhone. Autocorrect the right way! Is not us..... Wrong not wing...
 
2012-10-30 12:06:00 PM
Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.
 
2012-10-30 12:06:20 PM
frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")


sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

Bingo.


/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Most of the "MTFs" I've met are like that. And most of them would make ugly and masculine-looking "women" but are decent looking as men. "Honey, get over it: you're a TWINK."

Those people who are naturally androgynous in appearance and temperament don't need anything done to them either, regardless of their sexual desires, except maybe moving out of a hostile area to a more easy-going one. Which is to say once you've moved from Knoxville TN to San Francisco or Los Angeles your "need" for a "sex change" is moot: whoever you are there will be a subculture there that's into it. (I saw personal ads that sounded something like "SWM, 32, Ivy League education, seeks alcoholic double-amputee of either sex who's very into quadratic equations. Must be or be willing to become blond.")

E.g., as a swishy young bisexual it was easy for me to hook up with lesbians there, I just had to catch them when their penis-hating friends weren't around. And if she hasn't been with a male in 15 years, and has had a decent amount of experience with women, I was flattered she'd even seriously consider it: in my day the lesbian community was close-knit and "clannish" enough to shun gay women who "betrayed the sisterhood," for one thing.

But anyway. If your inner nature conflicts with society's" view of what you should be like that's society's problem and calls for change on its part. If room can and should be made for people of African descent why should it be different for you?
 
2012-10-30 12:09:58 PM

sweatybronson: Not sure how admitting that one is gay is harder than admitting that one us trapped in the wing gender's body?


one is admitting that one is sexually attracted to one's own sex.

one is trying to convince oneself that one is "stuck in the wrong body". which can at it's most base level translates to "i am a dude that is sexually attracted to other dudes". let's face it - how do male transexuals "live as the other sex"? by wearing dresses and makeup and pantyhose and shaving their legs, all of which is nothing more than pretending with social constructs. while STILL being attracted to one's own sex.

don't give me any speeches about "straight" transgender people either. what the fark does that even mean? that a "straight" transexual male is really a lesbian in a man's body? dear lord.
 
2012-10-30 12:12:05 PM

Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*


Complete agree as well as what was said about delaying puberty. As much as I want a gender reassignment it is a little late in the game for me to make the complete transition. If we had today's tech and therapy while I was a child and could have taking hormone blocks and made a transition at the earliest convenience I would have gladly taken that opportunity and never looked back. This is not to say if I found a bottle and genie I would only need one wish...

It is reasons like this that it is such a lengthy process here to make sure you are ready to go through the re-assignment.
 
2012-10-30 12:13:01 PM

The One True TheDavid: frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")


sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

Bingo.


/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Most of the "MTFs" I've met are like that. And most of them would make ugly and masculine-looking "women" but are decent looking as men. "Honey, get over it: you're a TWINK."

Those people who are naturally androgynous in appearance and temperament don't need anything done to them either, regardless of their sexual desires, except maybe moving out of a hostile area to a more easy-going one. Which is to say once you've moved from Knoxville TN to San Francisco or Los Angeles your "need" for a "sex change" is moot: whoever you are there will be a subculture there that's into it. (I saw personal ads that sounded something like "SWM, 32, Ivy League education, seeks alcoholic double-amputee of either sex who's very into quadratic equations. Must be or be willing to become blond.")

E.g., as a swishy young bisexual it was easy for me to hook up with lesbians there, I just had to catch them when their penis-hating friends weren't around. And if she hasn't been with a male in 15 years, and has had a decent amount of experience with women, I was flattered she'd even seriously consider it: in my day the lesbian community was close-knit and "clannish" enough to shun gay women who "betrayed the sisterhood," for one thing.

But anyway. If y ...


i wanna have yer babies.
 
2012-10-30 12:18:19 PM

Chameleon: frepnog:

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?


What do transexxual operations have to do with neurobiology?


Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation.

Sure, like serious psychological problems. We've each said that.


Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

And they should go ahead and do that. That's exactly what I would urge: live as you want but forgo surgery.


Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue.

Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.


Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies...

..funded and conducted by those groups, corporations and people who have vested financial and political interests in furthering this "field"...

Seriously, we'd expect the NRA and Smith-Wesson to produce studies "proving" that guns are great and should be commonly accepted (and bought); why would we expect anything different of another vested interest simply because its personnel have "MD" or "PhD" after their names?

Sheesh. Want a buy some "real" estate?
 
2012-10-30 12:23:31 PM

alice_600: Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.


Why? Let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a psychological issue: the body is gender A, the mind is gender B, so there's a mismatch. Okay, now what?
Pragmatically, it's actually far easier to do the surgery. We know a lot about how the body physically and physiologically works. But the mind? Shiat, we still don't really know how depression works, and that's the easy one. We throw a lot of drugs at people because "in clinical trials, on average, people are less likely to off themselves" or "people report feeling slightly better on a vague subjective self-reported scale". Uh, okay? That doesn't mean we know how the brain works.
Consider therapy itself - it's primarily counseling more than anything else: guiding the patient to reconsider their circumstances and essentially "heal" themselves. That alone should indicate that we don't know exactly how it works, any more than we know why a placebo may actually result in physiological changes.

So, you've got:
1) surgery which is fully understood and has been shown to pretty reliably address the underlying mind-body mismatch; or
2) therapy which isn't really understood, and may or may not work for a particular patient, and we have no way of predicting whether it will.

As you note, we need more reform and honesty - particularly, we need people to be honest about therapy not being a magic panacea that we should be prescribing to everyone to the exclusion of other treatments.
 
2012-10-30 12:23:49 PM

alice_600: Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.


Sounds like you don't know the process or the issues very well.

First - being transgender can mask issues. See my above comment about anxiety in groups.

Second - being transgender can CAUSE issues, some of which appear to be unrelated. For example, pre-transition I had a near crippling fear of dogs; it vanished the week I started hormones.

Third - the process includes therapy - and lots of it. Last I heard it was: 3 months before starting hormones, continuing a minimum of another YEAR before surgery is OK'd. MINIMUM. At that point, a second therapist must be seen, and both therapists and the physician providing HRT prescriptions must recommend for the surgery to happen.

As for it being similar to wanting to lose limbs, it's closer to the phantom pain those that have already lost limbs feel: the brain expects one thing, and when the body throws a "404 vagina not found" it gets confused.
 
2012-10-30 12:26:29 PM

The One True TheDavid: Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.


I bet I could find a surgeon who could describe in perfect detail how to perform gender reassignment surgery before you could find a "social engineer" who can describe in perfect detail how to "adjust filters". I'd even put money on it. How about you?
 
2012-10-30 12:28:09 PM

Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!

What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?

I"m a gay male. My gross incestual incestuous games were reserved for me and my brothers.




Why would a six-year-old play with boobies? I was interested in Hot Wheels cars at that age.
 
2012-10-30 12:31:20 PM

frepnog: The One True TheDavid: frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't you wouldn't exist. The genitals are there for reproduction and identity. Our bodies and appearance tell how good our genes are and how fertile we are when it comes to finding a mate. Because of birth control a lot of women don't find muscle bound he men attractive. They tend to prefer men who are almost feminine or androgenis (tight jeans is a turn on for me). As someone who is on the pill I can believe it since most of the men I dated and farked look like Noel Fielding, Russell Brand before he started to fark Katy Perry and asian guys who almost look like girls.

 
2012-10-30 12:41:21 PM

Exception Collection: Apok451: Thats probably the best course. As teenagers what you want changes from day to day, sometimes even from minute to minute. Though some do know for sure what they want, its just not common, but still should give it time and lots of thought. I wouldnt want to have a sex changes at all, I like what I have as it is. Though I could see how some guys may want to give it up for a magnificent set of tits. Though I do seriously wonder how many of the male to female transgenders have trouble keeping their own hands off their new boobs? I know my personal mindset and I would play with them endlessly and ask people if they wanted to see them, lol.

... Believe me, it takes effort. Though I don't ask other people if they want to see them; the one time someone other than my wife/doctors asked to see them I handed them a breast*form*.


That is part of my dilemma as I am considering getting a boob job instead of constantly taking off / putting on my breastforms constantly. Afterwards the sticker that I have in my room that states "Yes my tits are real and so is my penis" would be more truthful.
 
2012-10-30 12:43:14 PM
Cythraul:
Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.

There's a... log? Oh god. Oh god. I've been posting shiat here for years. Oh god.
 
2012-10-30 12:53:58 PM

CrappityCrap: Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


Wrong. You need a fully functioning SRY gene on the Y chromosome to develop into a man. A defective SRY gene results in androgen insensitivity syndrome. So you can be a woman with XY chromosomes.

Even if you have the right genes, their expression is mostly a best effort as opposed to a hard rule. Disease, foreign chemicals, hormone imbalances and the like during gestation can disrupt embryonic gene expression, leading to possible birth defects. Hermaphrodism of the body and brain are one group of such defects.

Many people with hermaphrodism of the brain end up with gender identity disorders. You can't fix the brain and no amount of ignoring it makes it go away. It is like an itch you can never scratch. You're fine at first but it slowly drives you bonkers.

The person in the article did get psychiatric help. Since you can't treat the brain, the only alternative is to make the body into what the brain wants. That is the current accepted method of treatment. You may not like it, but people who do psychiatry for a living say it usually helps more often than not.
 
2012-10-30 12:56:28 PM

Kodragon: Exception Collection: Apok451: Thats probably the best course. As teenagers what you want changes from day to day, sometimes even from minute to minute. Though some do know for sure what they want, its just not common, but still should give it time and lots of thought. I wouldnt want to have a sex changes at all, I like what I have as it is. Though I could see how some guys may want to give it up for a magnificent set of tits. Though I do seriously wonder how many of the male to female transgenders have trouble keeping their own hands off their new boobs? I know my personal mindset and I would play with them endlessly and ask people if they wanted to see them, lol.

... Believe me, it takes effort. Though I don't ask other people if they want to see them; the one time someone other than my wife/doctors asked to see them I handed them a breast*form*.

That is part of my dilemma as I am considering getting a boob job instead of constantly taking off / putting on my breastforms constantly. Afterwards the sticker that I have in my room that states "Yes my tits are real and so is my penis" would be more truthful.


I considered that, but "feels real" trumps "current size is good" for me - they're still growing 31 months into hormones. I'm *almost* to where I want to be, and the last thing I want is pain because they grow AFTER getting implants.
 
2012-10-30 01:11:43 PM

Chameleon: Only that female hormones made her moody (well duh)


For some transsexuals on hormone replacement, it goes beyond moody. If they miss taking their routine daily prescription by more than a few hours, the resulting drop in hormones can trigger a response similar to postpartum depression. The symptoms can be very brutal, and can sometimes lead to psychosis or suicide if the episode is bad enough. The depression can last for a couple of days before returning to normal.

If the person in the article was like this, I can see why it would make you want to stop. They're already dealing with all of the crap from friends, family and society. Having your own personal breakdown because you missed your meds doesn't help.
 
2012-10-30 01:40:07 PM

kiwimoogle84: quietwalker
What the armchair-psych in me says, is that perhaps in the US many of these individuals actually aren't transgender, but rather, at odds with themselves and society, and can probably obtain happiness by introspection, therapy, and time - as per kiwimoogle84's example.


The only thing I find a bit disturbing is that my friend who got the sex change? He went through less counseling for it than I had to when I was discussing getting my tubes tied. For whatever reason, it's as if me choosing not to have children is more of a major decision than ALTERING MY BODY. I can always adopt later in life, but no, I choose not to have kids, and I had to get like six different doctors to sign off on it because I was under 25 and childless.

It's a tragedy that people are sometimes trapped in the wrong gender body, but someone upthread discussed that yes- a chiseled jaw and 6'4 and hairy does not a pretty lady make. You'll have a hard time, trust me. Meanwhile, a guy who's 5'5 and waifish and blonde? Sure, you'd probably pass. Heck, I have masculine features myself, and I'm amazed I look as feminine as I do sometimes.

It comes down to what you're sure you want. Whatever your choice, it's not exactly easy to go back, so be certain.


Well I was going to say something along those lines. His/her problem with love which seems to be the major factor here is that as a woman she still looked very male like and from what I understand she still had a penis so aside from a group of people who are into that kind of thing she doesn't have a great deal of possible mates. His gender identity issues are probably rooted in some past abuse and it is the abuse that is the real issue that he is trying to resolve. I am not saying that is true for all transgenders, but from following this story it is the impression I am getting. I know a great deal of abuse victims which allows me to notice the signs.
 
2012-10-30 01:54:23 PM
But all women are fairly miserable, right?
 
2012-10-30 01:59:29 PM
Most of them look like abominations..this one, yep.
Ugly no matter what.
 
2012-10-30 02:07:19 PM
If no one else is going to post pics of hot transsexuals...

i.imgur.com 

i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-30 02:12:25 PM
Reesa Noi - post-op

i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-30 02:12:43 PM
I thought that, in the US at least, transgender folk had to live as their "destination" gender for a year before getting surgery. Not that anyone can stop you from flying to a country where the surgeons will do anything for cash, but if you want to go through health insurance, you have to follow the plan recommended by a psychiatric professional organization, or something like that.
 
2012-10-30 02:19:36 PM
This thread:
verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com

This person made a mistake. And all you trans-haters are linin' up to revel in it.
That's cool, but just admit that your comments come from a place of hate.

You don't have to admit it in this thread, or to anyone else... Just be sure to at least admit it to yourself.
 
2012-10-30 02:32:59 PM

Theaetetus: The One True TheDavid:

Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.

I bet I could find a surgeon who could describe in perfect detail how to perform gender reassignment surgery before you could find a "social engineer" who can describe in perfect detail how to "adjust filters". I'd even put money on it. How about you?


Of course you could, because there's more money in surgery than in changing long-term social attitudes. Again, in the USA we no longer have "Whites Only" rest rooms; eventually people will get used to the idea that a person might have a penis and be very feminine in manner and dress.

Your comment by the way addresses another of my points against "sex change" surgery: THEY CHARGE LOTS OF MONEY FOR THIS, YOU FOOLS. That's why they do it, and it's why they want y'all to keep getting it done. Of course you'll find studies "proving" this "sex change surgery" is great: if they got rich from telling you to stand on your heads whistling Dixie instead that's exactly what these "studies" would say.

As in "Neuroscientists affiliated with the Stanford School of Medicine announced today that the psychological pain of feeling 'born into the wrong body' was greatly alleviated, in some cases permanently, by having people assume an upside-down position and whistle various tunes picked by a computer at random. The old spiritual known as 'Dixie' afforded the greatest relief to most patients, with 'Maryland, My Maryland' coming in second. There was even one person who was cured by whistling 'I'm In Love With My Car' by a defunct punk-rock group called English Queens."

Try getting a surgeon who thinks this surgery is great for "sufferers" and does a lot of it to do it for FREE just once. Just out of the goodness of his heart, because you'd feel so much better if your johnson were removed. I'll wager money it won't be easy to do: if there is a charity johnson-lopping service out there you'll be on a waiting list for years. (Which if there is such a thing would show how successful their pro-castration propaganda has been, when we should have been changing Society to accomodate differently-gendered people instead.)

Using "sex change surgery" as the final solution to the sex/gender problem is as wrong and as wrong-headed as killing Jews to fix the Versailles Treaty, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who amass a lot of MONEY and POWER by taking advantage of the weak, the confused and the stupid. 

Put it this way: if I can survive to 49.7 years without having a sex change anybody can. It's easy once you learn how.
 
2012-10-30 02:39:54 PM

pciszek: I thought that, in the US at least, transgender folk had to live as their "destination" gender for a year before getting surgery. Not that anyone can stop you from flying to a country where the surgeons will do anything for cash, but if you want to go through health insurance, you have to follow the plan recommended by a psychiatric professional organization, or something like that.


First - that applies to pretty much all doctors, not just the ones in the US.

Second - insurance that covers HORMONES AND THERAPY is rare. Insurance that covers the surgery is effectively non-existent outside of large employers like gov't and tech firms like Intel; they basically provide the insurance themselves by escrow.
 
2012-10-30 02:41:36 PM
Ah, yes. All those studies paid for by "doctors" claiming that bypass surgery can help prevent heart attacks. Of course they claim that, they make TONS of money on open heart surgery. And don't get me started on these so-called "scientists" who publish "research" in "journals"...
 
2012-10-30 02:45:12 PM

The One True TheDavid: Theaetetus: The One True TheDavid:

Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.

I bet I could find a surgeon who could describe in perfect detail how to perform gender reassignment surgery before you could find a "social engineer" who can describe in perfect detail how to "adjust filters". I'd even put money on it. How about you?

Of course you could, because there's more money in surgery than in changing long-term social attitudes.


Oh, now who's being naive, Lisa?
Long-term social attitude change created the concept of pink for girls, leading to literally trillions in revenue for pink products, as well as the entire Victoria's Secret clothing spin-off line. Don't be silly. There's plenty more money there than in surgery.

Your comment by the way addresses another of my points against "sex change" surgery: THEY CHARGE LOTS OF MONEY FOR THIS, YOU FOOLS. That's why they do it, and it's why they want y'all to keep getting it done.

Wasn't my comment, actually, that was your incredibly naive strawman. It actually fails to address my comment, which was that we currently have a surgical procedure to remove that mind-body gender disconnection, but we don't currently have a "social filter fix" or whatever it is you're proposing.

You analogize this to the social engineering that desegregated society... Okay, where's the corresponding surgical procedure that whitifies people? There isn't one? Your analogy is a false analogy? Exactly.

The One True TheDavid: Using "sex change surgery" as the final solution to the sex/gender problem is as wrong and as wrong-headed as killing Jews to fix the Versailles Treaty...


And Godwin'd. Why are you so angry and defensive that you'd have to resort to Holocaust comparisons to support your patently false analogy? It really isn't necessary, you know, nor does it ever convince anyone.
 
2012-10-30 02:46:59 PM

Exception Collection: Second - insurance that covers HORMONES AND THERAPY is rare.


Prescription coverage for hormone replacement and the required blood work are not uncommon. It just goes in under a generic code for hormone deficiency. They don't actually check to see if the doctor is prescribing estrogen for men or androgen for women. Very easy to slide it under the radar.
 
2012-10-30 02:54:22 PM

Cythraul: Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.


Er...it's actually pom-pon.

/don't blame me.
 
2012-10-30 02:55:43 PM

tekmo: Cythraul: Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.

Er...it's actually pom-pon.

/don't blame me.


Well now I'm just all confused. Revision in the log!
 
2012-10-30 03:10:32 PM
@ the one true david : yes it is freaking expensive and among the reasons I have not gone under the knife. To me it is no different then someone wanting to adjust how their nose looks or get implants as they want to look in the mirror and see how they see themselves. I have lived this way for 40 years and knew back in Elementary school that I wanted to be a girl but at the time gender identity issues were not even heard of or discussed. I do not think I am asking much, just not to be treated like a leper if I go out in Drag or fear for my life. For those with insurance, money and an accepting group of family and friends, by all means do what makes you happy and get a reassignment surgery.
 
2012-10-30 03:22:10 PM

Cythraul: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.


What you fail to realize is that those operations achieve nothing. You completely ignore the fact that they are suffering from a mental illness. All these genders that they "identify with" are complete fabrications of the mind. It is ALL a byproduct of their illness. And that, in itself is the root issue here! Sex reassignments only reinforce the illness, nurtures it and feeds it with even more delusions. Instead of working to fix or treat the ailment, people are trying to incorporate it into society as some kind of new class. It's absolutely farking crazy if you ask me. It creates too much confusion and adds more questions than answers them. Instead of doing all that meaningless crap, you investigate what's causing them to think this way as it's not normal and you treat it. Same as you would any other psychological issue.
 
2012-10-30 03:27:31 PM

Terri Schiavo's Brain Cavity: Exception Collection: Second - insurance that covers HORMONES AND THERAPY is rare.

Prescription coverage for hormone replacement and the required blood work are not uncommon. It just goes in under a generic code for hormone deficiency. They don't actually check to see if the doctor is prescribing estrogen for men or androgen for women. Very easy to slide it under the radar.


Clarification: HRT is usually under "exemptions", and while they may cover it if the paperwork is right they will come after you for the money if they figure out it's "wrong".
 
2012-10-30 03:33:18 PM
Terri Schiavo's Brain Cavity:

Many people with hermaphrodism of the brain end up with gender identity disorders.

Most people who think they're "transsexual" don't in fact have "hermaphrodism of the brain." They just like to play Barbies when the other boys are playing with GI Joes.

It's an essentially trivial problem Society has blown way out of proportion with hundreds of years of insisting on wrong-headed dogmas saying "boys do this and girls do that."

But of course the vaunted experts who amass lots of MONEY and POWER saying "We can fix your problem with surgery!" will say otherwise. And lots of people, being sheep of the "liberal" persuasion, will agree with that, just as sheep of the "conservative" persuasion will recommend lots of prayer instead.

The answer is simple: Make room! Make room!

It will take time -- it's easier and quicker to castrate these people surgically -- but then patrons of the Lost Cause eventualy realized that letting dark-skinned men pee into "Whites Only" urinals won't automagically knock up every Scarlette O'Hara in Alabama.

The castration-complex industry is also an example of "blaming the victim" because it says the problem belongs to the person who feels his "gender" doesn't match his chromosomal and anatomical sex. In reality this is yet another example of Society's hatred of "sissies" and the internalized psychological torture it inflicts on the confused and desperate victims of this "syndrome."

Why not say, oh, "Leon, boys can wear skirts and play with Barbies too. There's room for all kinds of people whose behaviors don't hurt anybody. And those two or three unaccepting kids in your class, well, their parents are too stupid to teach them any better. Now let's hurry or we'll miss your karate class."

After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change. And all those people who preyed on the weak and confused will have to find another way to amass lots of money and power. 

Of course you and your ilk will now insult me for recommending simple common sense, but hey, if it weren't for cheerleaders like you they'd have to advertise "sex change" on TV along with Cialis and Lipitor. It's so much easier and cheaper to convince you "liberal" sheep to propagandize for them.

Here's another "real problem" that a lot of people are convinced they need medical help for: Morgellons. These people actually believe they're infected with an organism previously unknown to Science that a bunch of mean luddites won't help them fix. Obviously (and you're reading it here first) the remedy is surgical intervention by skilled professionals! Hurry up! Climb on your high horse and advocate for these suffering people's need for medical treatment! (Think too of all the BMW dealers suffering from all this, and the single-malts I could buy after painting the car dealers' bathrooms.)
 
2012-10-30 03:33:44 PM
What's the point of sex changes? You're not fooling anyone but yourself
 
2012-10-30 03:40:46 PM
In, out, in, out, shake it all about.
 
2012-10-30 03:52:44 PM

The One True TheDavid: Why not say, oh, "Leon, boys can wear skirts and play with Barbies too. There's room for all kinds of people whose behaviors don't hurt anybody. And those two or three unaccepting kids in your class, well, their parents are too stupid to teach them any better. Now let's hurry or we'll miss your karate class."

After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change. And all those people who preyed on the weak and confused will have to find another way to amass lots of money and power. ...


That is a fantastic idea and would wholeheartedly back that type of ideal of let people be people no matter how they dress or act. However there will still be some that would want to go under the knife with the bonus being you would probably negate those who changed their mind and wanted to go back to their born gender.
 
2012-10-30 04:00:58 PM

Kodragon: The One True TheDavid: Why not say, oh, "Leon, boys can wear skirts and play with Barbies too. There's room for all kinds of people whose behaviors don't hurt anybody. And those two or three unaccepting kids in your class, well, their parents are too stupid to teach them any better. Now let's hurry or we'll miss your karate class."

After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change. And all those people who preyed on the weak and confused will have to find another way to amass lots of money and power. ...

That is a fantastic idea and would wholeheartedly back that type of ideal of let people be people no matter how they dress or act. However there will still be some that would want to go under the knife with the bonus being you would probably negate those who changed their mind and wanted to go back to their born gender.


We should have that kind of society, but it would do little for me. It's my sex that is the issue, not how I act - I don't wear skirts often, I don't play with dolls, and I don't like most romance books or movies. Oh, and I work in a field where men outnumber women by a vast number (I have had one female coworker out of close to thirty people I've worked with, and that's not too unusual).
 
2012-10-30 04:04:57 PM

CrappityCrap: What you fail to realize is that those operations achieve nothing. You completely ignore the fact that they are suffering from a mental illness. All these genders that they "identify with" are complete fabrications of the mind. It is ALL a byproduct of their illness. And that, in itself is the root issue here! Sex reassignments only reinforce the illness, nurtures it and feeds it with even more delusions. Instead of working to fix or treat the ailment, people are trying to incorporate it into society as some kind of new class. It's absolutely farking crazy if you ask me. It creates too much confusion and adds more questions than answers them. Instead of doing all that meaningless crap, you investigate what's causing them to think this way as it's not normal and you treat it. Same as you would any other psychological issue.


Sure, except that you are actually patently wrong about everything you say here and it is known to stem from an actual physical difference in the brain.

/also, what the hell do you care what other people do with themselves?
 
2012-10-30 04:09:26 PM

The One True TheDavid: Most people who think they're "transsexual" don't in fact have "hermaphrodism of the brain." They just like to play Barbies when the other boys are playing with GI Joes.


Do you have data from a reliable source to support this claim?

/and no, your ass doesn't qualify
 
2012-10-30 04:13:36 PM

Kodragon: The One True TheDavid: Why not say, oh, "Leon, boys can wear skirts and play with Barbies too. There's room for all kinds of people whose behaviors don't hurt anybody. And those two or three unaccepting kids in your class, well, their parents are too stupid to teach them any better. Now let's hurry or we'll miss your karate class."

After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change. And all those people who preyed on the weak and confused will have to find another way to amass lots of money and power. ...

That is a fantastic idea and would wholeheartedly back that type of ideal of let people be people no matter how they dress or act. However there will still be some that would want to go under the knife with the bonus being you would probably negate those who changed their mind and wanted to go back to their born gender.


As I said earlier, adults should be free to have the surgery if they insist. As should those who want to accomplish what Michael Jackson and Jocelyn Wildenstein achieved. People should also be free to believe that prayer can turn an asteroid toward Uranus instead of Wichita. 

It takes all kinds. If there were no deluded people to point at and preach about I'd probably wind up focusing more on my own personal flaws, which might eventually put me in the ER with DTs or pancreatitis.

YMMV. And what do y'all expect for free? If y'all Farkers want me to post things that please you feel free to bribe me. I accept Paypal; EIP.
 
2012-10-30 04:14:39 PM

Theaetetus: The One True TheDavid: Most people who think they're "transsexual" don't in fact have "hermaphrodism of the brain." They just like to play Barbies when the other boys are playing with GI Joes.

Do you have data from a reliable source to support this claim?

/and no, your ass doesn't qualify


Results of boys playing with barbies (pops) (mentions condoms, may not be safe for your work)
 
2012-10-30 04:31:11 PM
A lot of these problems could be taken care of if western culture would recognize what a lot of eastern and Native American cultures recognized long ago. There are way more than 2 genders. There's not just male and female, there's a whole gradient in between.
 
2012-10-30 05:26:13 PM

The One True TheDavid: Most people who think they're "transsexual" don't in fact have "hermaphrodism of the brain." They just like to play Barbies when the other boys are playing with GI Joes.


People can think whatever they want of themselves. But they won't get an Rx for HRT until a psychiatrist examines them over a period of time and concludes that it is something more than just liking Barbies. And if the psychiatrist has reason to rethink the diagnosis, the Rx can be allowed to expire.

It takes a lot more than being effeminate and liking Barbies to get your SRS.


The One True TheDavid: It's an essentially trivial problem Society has blown way out of proportion


I'd say that it is an incredibly complex issue. People, especially in Western cultures, like to believe that sex and gender are binary constraints. They're not. Yet you have huge parts of society that won't accept that idea and lash out as a consequence.


The One True TheDavid: The castration-complex industry


You mean the few dozen certified plastic surgeons around the world who actually perform reassignment surgeries? Or do you also include the few hundred back alley surgeons in India and SE Asia who perform chop-job castrations as well? Because as far as influential trade groups go, they're not one of them.


The One True TheDavid: In reality this is yet another example of Society's hatred of "sissies" and the internalized psychological torture it inflicts on the confused and desperate victims of this "syndrome."


There are cases of incredibly feminine men or masculine women who feel that switching genders will make life easier because they'll be closer to their target expression. And it is a psychiatrist's job to identify those people and reject them as candidates for HRT and SRS.


The One True TheDavid: After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change


You're suggesting that as effeminate men are more accepted by society in the same way that tom boys and masculine women are accepted today that M2F transitions will decrease. I agree that men who are ashamed of their femininity who try to conceal it by crossing over will drop off in number, but I think the overall number of transitions will continue to rise.


The One True TheDavid: Here's another "real problem" that a lot of people are convinced they need medical help for: Morgellons


Morgellons is nothing more than a Somatoform disorder triggered by anxiety or other forms negative stimulation. Except for treatment of said anxiety and stimulation, there is no cure.

Gender identity disorder is supposedly caused by regions of the brain developing into an intermediate state between the norms of each sex. This is supported via autopsies on transgendered people. The preferred treatment would be to push brain development back towards the norm for one's sex, but this treatment isn't currently available. Alternatives are learning to cope with the conflict of self identification or to use cosmetic surgery to alter the body so the conflict is negated.

It is that self identification that separates highly effeminate men from those with GIS. You can like girly things and look at one's self in the mirror and not see an issue. For those with GIS, they see themselves as being wrong. No amount of social acceptance of effeminate men will fix that.
 
2012-10-30 05:30:23 PM
FTA: Although Ms Cooper underwent a thorough psychological assessment and counseling at Hull Royal Infirmary prior to starting her sex change therapy she has suffered such torment living as a women that she has tried to commit suicide twice.

violetvolume: I thought you were REQUIRED to have counseling and live as the other sex for at least a year before anyone would give you an actual sex change operation.


You're basically correct, but two things:

First of all, evidentally she did do something like that. The article doesn't go into a lot of detail, but usually the way it works in the USA is:
1) You undergo counseling
2) You do a "real life test" (RLE/RLT) for a year (or longer) to see if you can "make it" in society as the other gender.
3) If you succeed the RLT, -then- hormone therapy starts
4) Sometime after hormone therapy you begin the many different surgeries to modify your body.
5) The actual sex reassignment surgery (SRS) usually comes last, after hormone therapy and other surgeries 

Many transsexuals don't do SRS, for various reasons. It's generally the last step so that if someone changes their mind, like in this case, they can stop hormone therapy and go back. Once SRS happens, it's considerably harder to go back, naturally.

Second, all of what I describe above is how it works in the USA (as I understand it). Ria Cooper is British. I suppose that Britain does things differently. I would imagine that they follow the same basic steps, but perhaps on a different timetable.
 
2012-10-30 05:37:55 PM

Terri Schiavo's Brain Cavity: Morgellons is nothing more than a Somatoform disorder triggered by anxiety or other forms negative stimulation. Except for treatment of said anxiety and stimulation, there is no cure.


I don't know about that. Looking at the pics of Morgellons sufferers, i don't think that is that case at ALL. These people are growing fibers out of wounds, it is freaky as shiat, there are now thousands of people with it, and it seems to be a real affliction with no known cause. Dismissing it as a mental disorder seems premature.
 
2012-10-30 05:51:49 PM

ciberido: FTA: Although Ms Cooper underwent a thorough psychological assessment and counseling at Hull Royal Infirmary prior to starting her sex change therapy she has suffered such torment living as a women that she has tried to commit suicide twice.

violetvolume: I thought you were REQUIRED to have counseling and live as the other sex for at least a year before anyone would give you an actual sex change operation.

You're basically correct, but two things:

First of all, evidentally she did do something like that. The article doesn't go into a lot of detail, but usually the way it works in the USA is:
1) You undergo counseling
2) You do a "real life test" (RLE/RLT) for a year (or longer) to see if you can "make it" in society as the other gender.
3) If you succeed the RLT, -then- hormone therapy starts
4) Sometime after hormone therapy you begin the many different surgeries to modify your body.
5) The actual sex reassignment surgery (SRS) usually comes last, after hormone therapy and other surgeries 

Many transsexuals don't do SRS, for various reasons. It's generally the last step so that if someone changes their mind, like in this case, they can stop hormone therapy and go back. Once SRS happens, it's considerably harder to go back, naturally.

Second, all of what I describe above is how it works in the USA (as I understand it). Ria Cooper is British. I suppose that Britain does things differently. I would imagine that they follow the same basic steps, but perhaps on a different timetable.


Close, but hormones can start before the RLE (Real Life Experience) these days. I was on hormones 6.5 months before I started the RLE - I had to come out to family/friends/coworkers and prepare.
 
2012-10-30 05:57:34 PM
Also, not everyone gets all or even most surgeries - I haven't had any yet, and intend to only get SRS and maybe a boob job. My face doesn't need it and my voice box is damned close to invisible 90% of the time.
 
2012-10-30 06:08:07 PM

quietwalker: Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.


Please cite some of these studies, because everything I've read contradicts this.
 
2012-10-30 06:30:21 PM

alice_600: Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.


Exception Collection: As for it being similar to wanting to lose limbs, it's closer to the phantom pain those that have already lost limbs feel: the brain expects one thing, and when the body throws a "404 vagina not found" it gets confused.

 

I seem to recall reading in one of VS Ramachandran's books where he talks about phantom limb syndrome he wrote something about transsexuals. If I remember correctly, he said that normal cis-men (men who are not transgendered) who lost their penises to disease or injury often suffered a form of phantom penis syndrome. But mtf transsexuals who had had their penises removed surgically did not seem to suffer from phantom penis syndrome.

It was all pretty anecdotal, but if it were statistically verified, it would be evidence that a mtf transsexual's brain really does have a female body image hardwired into it.

Also anecdotally, some ftm transsexuals have reported how "right" it feels after breast removal surgery to, say, roll over in bed and NOT feel their breasts encounter the mattress, which again suggests that their brains had a male body map all along. Of course you could argue that they're just imagining it, and I'm not aware of any efforts to study this kind of thing formally, but it's interesting.
 
2012-10-30 06:34:33 PM
Seems to me the "system" such as it is, worked well. This person started feeling wrong, felt wrong, tried to change, change did not solve problem. Either mis-diagnosis or he was fooling himself. Perhaps he'll look deeper into what his real issues are and get some sort of resolution for his situation.

Either way, since this all transpiried prior to having anything lopped off, he can go back with minimal physical effects and hopefully some more self-knowledge.
 
2012-10-30 07:20:24 PM

ciberido: quietwalker: Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.

Please cite some of these studies, because everything I've read contradicts this.



There is some literature that describes schizophrenics suffering from body-morphic delusions, including changing of one's sex. However, that is unrelated to GIS. Also, Schizophrenia can result in disorganized and unconventional thinking that falls outside of social norms. So in theory, they may be less hesitant to transitioning than the general population. However, psychiatric standards of care typically state that schizophrenia is a disqualification for transitioning.

There is a good deal of literature regarding the higher rate of clinical depression with people associated with GIS, as well as the corresponding hike in the suicide rate. What isn't described in great deal is the source of the depression. Do biological differences in people with GIS cause a suppression of monoamine production and other biological precursors for depression? Do long term self-identity issues degrade self-worth, resulting in the suppression? Or is it due to negative feedback from family, friends and society?

Chronic cases of clinical depression have been shown to increase risks for a host of other issues such as sleep disorders, changes in weight, anxiety, agitation and being lethargic. Severe depression can lead to episodes of psychosis or attempts at suicide. Long term, it is suggested at chronic depression can increase your chance of Parkinson's and cardiovascular disease. So I am not surprised if there is a higher rate of these issues within the GIS community.

But again, do GIS and depression emerge simultaneously or does depression manifest itself later when the individual realizes the severity of their issue?
 
2012-10-30 07:33:32 PM
So we are calling reassignment surgery? Are we invoking God in to this? If you think God assigned you a a certain gender, then you should probably stick with it. If not, I'm not sure how mistakes of this category are made. Was I meant to be a tree?
 
2012-10-30 07:45:39 PM

Gdalescrboz: So we are calling reassignment surgery? Are we invoking God in to this? If you think God assigned you a a certain gender, then you should probably stick with it. If not, I'm not sure how mistakes of this category are made. Was I meant to be a tree?


I do believe God gave me a gender - a female soul to match my female mind, but not my male flesh. The flesh is easily corrupted; the soul is not. Or so I believe, at least.

Please note that I have more than one birth defect ON TOP of being transgender (I'm almost to double digits, though most are minor). At least one of them would have likely been more likely fatal if I'd been born female physically.
 
2012-10-30 07:57:09 PM

cassanovascotian: This thread:
[verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com image 500x400]

This person made a mistake. And all you trans-haters are linin' up to revel in it.
That's cool, but just admit that your comments come from a place of hate.

You don't have to admit it in this thread, or to anyone else... Just be sure to at least admit it to yourself.


Dude, I'm not hating on trans people. If changing your gender makes you feel happy and complete, more power to you.
 
2012-10-30 08:46:55 PM

The One True TheDavid: Using "sex change surgery" as the final solution to the sex/gender problem is as wrong and as wrong-headed as killing Jews to fix the Versailles Treaty, but unfortunately there are a lot of people who amass a lot of MONEY and POWER by taking advantage of the weak, the confused and the stupid.


Theaetetus: And Godwin'd. Why are you so angry and defensive that you'd have to resort to Holocaust comparisons to support your patently false analogy? It really isn't necessary, you know, nor does it ever convince anyone.

 

I don't know exactly why, but he's posted angry and defensive attacks on trandgeder folk in at least five other Fark thread The One True TheDavid I've witnessed.  He's also posted the occasional homophobic or biphobic remark, but he's not NEARLY so rabidly homophobic or biphobic as he is transphobic, for whatever that tells you.
 
2012-10-30 09:21:05 PM

Skyred: What's the point of sex changes? You're not fooling anyone but yourself


Well, certainly for most transsexuals considering sex reassignment surgery, being able to "pass" as the opposite sex (what you dismissively call "fooling anyone") is a goal, but it's far from the only consideration. For many transsexuals, being able to "fool" bigots like yourself is more a side-benefit than anything else. Feeling comfortable in one's own body is often a higher priority.

It's a little bit like how many heterosexual men complain that lesbians are unattractive. For the most part, lesbians aren't trying to look attractive to YOU, so they're not too worried about your opinions on the matter. More likely, inasmuch as they consider your thoughts at all, they're more worried that you don't harass them. 

And of course, there's also the little detail that you're denying reality. However many "ugly" transsexuals there may be, the fact remains that many, many transsexuals DO pass very well. Pictures have already been posted in this thread. I'm sure you find that thought very uncomfortable.
 
2012-10-30 10:52:06 PM
Ok, I am willing and wanting to discuss gender identity issues with anyone, any individual, a group of psychology professors, or what have you in the vain hope of better understanding myself. I am a minority, within a minority, and within a minority. A male, who wishes to be female but is attracted to females, I am at the moment comfortable in my body but am better at being myself when wearing a bra and boobs. I cannot point to any one moment of my growing up that was some deciding factor of why I feel this way or when it started. I can remember wanting to play with dolls, wanting to wear dresses and am so ever thankful of having friends that accepted me while I hid that away from my parents. Thankful that now my father knows how I identify myself and is willing to support me in anything I do or decide. I am thankful of having friends that help push me at being more comfortable at being myself while going out in public and that are willing to stick up for me.

To those that cannot figure out why they feel the way they do in that situation I want to talk to, to those that think I can be cured by electroshock therapy in some vain attempt to cure something like being homosexual I want to talk to, to those trying to figure out if they were born in the wrong body I want to talk to.

We have men that want to falsely be woman because they are attracted to men but feel wrong about being gay or women that are attracted to women but feel they should be male. There is also the small percentage of people that believe that have traits of both sex where in one moment they are male and should be treated as such or want to be female and treated as such.

We are in the early stages of breaking the social norms of gender identity and the stories of someone like that of Chris Tina Bruce on Huffington Post taking that ideal and going further beyond the limitations is hope for me. I want to be able to go out tomorrow and get breast implants and dress as I am comfortable and am happy to use whatever restroom society feels most suitable. This I want to do without the fear of being assaulted, beaten or abused. If people want to point and laugh or make disparaging remarks then it is their loss for not knowing such a wonderful person.
 
2012-10-30 11:01:37 PM
I'm not sure if half the ignorance fueled hate posted here is simply trolling or actual belief. However, my daily interactions with people tends to lend me to believe that it is probably the latter. Being that ignorance is curable and that stupidity is not, I will not let that oh so miniscule spark of hope fade away, that we as a species might rise above our urge to shun anyone who dares not fit into the gender binary.*

I hesitate to speak out at all, lest I further enable the stereotype of the attention mongering trans person, but I feel the need to refute certain concepts stated here at least at a personal level. To claim that those of us outside of the gender binary are mentally/ emotionally imbalanced, are frustrated gay people, or are simply making it up; is simply ignorant to the point of silly.

That's right, silly.



*Or anyone else who chooses to be non obnoxiously different for that matter.
 
2012-10-31 01:19:59 AM
Terri Schiavo's Brain Cavity:

The One True TheDavid: Most people who think they're "transsexual" don't in fact have "hermaphrodism of the brain." They just like to play Barbies when the other boys are playing with GI Joes.

People can think whatever they want of themselves. But they won't get an Rx for HRT until a psychiatrist examines them over a period of time and concludes that it is something more than just liking Barbies. And if the psychiatrist has reason to rethink the diagnosis, the Rx can be allowed to expire.


And of the psychiatrist who has this specialized in "transsexual issues" is seen by present and future clients as unfavorable (or "a hater" in the vernacular) they'll stop going to him. And he will lose that income.


It takes a lot more than being effeminate and liking Barbies to get your SRS.

It also takes money.


The One True TheDavid: It's an essentially trivial problem Society has blown way out of proportion

I'd say that it is an incredibly complex issue. People, especially in Western cultures, like to believe that sex and gender are binary constraints. They're not. Yet you have huge parts of society that won't accept that idea and lash out as a consequence.


You argue against viewing sex and gender as binary constraints, then you advocate for surgery meant to turn a person from one half of the binary constraint to the other. Don't you listen to youself?



The One True TheDavid: The castration-complex industry

You mean the few dozen certified plastic surgeons around the world who actually perform reassignment surgeries? Or do you also include the few hundred back alley surgeons in India and SE Asia who perform chop-job castrations as well? Because as far as influential trade groups go, they're not one of them.


I mean both the "trained professionals" and the "back-allrey butchers." Castration (technically speaking) refers to severing the testicles and scrotum from the body; common usage has enlarged it to include removing the penis too. How many "MTF" surgeries involve retaining the penis and testicles intact? How can you change a man to a (pseudo-)woman without removing the penis & testicles? (Careful now, that might be a trick question.)


The One True TheDavid: In reality this is yet another example of Society's hatred of "sissies" and the internalized psychological torture it inflicts on the confused and desperate victims of this "syndrome."

There are cases of incredibly feminine men or masculine women who feel that switching genders will make life easier because they'll be closer to their target expression. And it is a psychiatrist's job to identify those people and reject them as candidates for HRT and SRS.


Then who else would form their clientele? That's like saying that it's a Baptist preacher's job to identify and reject people who accept Jesus Christ.


The One True TheDavid: After a few generations of this, bingo, social attitudes will change

You're suggesting that as effeminate men are more accepted by society in the same way that tom boys and masculine women are accepted today that M2F transitions will decrease.


Perhaps. It certainly should one the binary constraints of sex and gender that you seek to reinforce with "Sex Reassignment Surgery" are shown to be bullshiat.

I agree that men who are ashamed of their femininity who try to conceal it by crossing over will drop off in number, but I think the overall number of transitions will continue to rise.

If the castration complex continues to spread its advertising by shills like you, perhaps. It's always difficult to oppose what's supposed to be "scientific" with simple common sense.

Until the 1930s it was regarded as an established scientific truth that black people's brains were smaller than whites' and that "Negroes" were less intelligent. And people who said "Hey wait a minute, that sounds like BS meant to further a particular agenda and feather certain nests!" were spoken to the way you to speak to me, at best.

There's a lot of money to be made in mutilating genitals, so do they pay you to advertise for them or are you one of those morons who'll spend extra money to wear a designer's logo on your sportswear? Shills should at least be comped with free meals, for crying out loud. Consider that next time you "advocate" for the binary constraint of "SRS."
 
2012-10-31 01:35:08 AM
ciberido:

I don't know exactly why, but he's posted angry and defensive attacks on trandgeder folk in at least five other Fark thread The One True TheDavid I've witnessed.  He's also posted the occasional homophobic or biphobic remark, but he's not NEARLY so rabidly homophobic or biphobic as he is transphobic, for whatever that tells you.

Actually I'm a lifelong bisexual who spent his teen years as a flaming queen: I "felt" more female than male and even considered "SRS" or at least becoming "a chick with a dick."

Than goodness I didn't do that and eventually grew out of that phase. Now I see that it was just as crazy as believing the CIA would mess with me because I broke some 20 year old's heart at a rock show. And dammit, it was nice thinking I was the Messiah for two months. Confused, weak and desperate people can get all kinds of crazy ideas, even that they were "meant" to be born into another body.

You were saying...?

By the way, you should remember I have no army nor do I need one. Indeed I have several times said that adults should be able to undergo "SRS," or to accept Jesus as their personal savior, or even vote Republican, rgardless of how I feel about it. If you feel very threatened by one "lone nut" stating his non-binding opinion there's something wrong with you. 

It takes all kinds. Some of us get to believe that "SRS" is a cruel and expensive joke. It's, like, the law of averages and, you know, freedom of speech, d00d. Learn to live with it.
 
2012-10-31 01:40:16 AM
Theaetetus assled me:


Okay, where's the corresponding surgical procedure that whitifies people? 

top-10-list.org
 
2012-10-31 02:59:08 AM

The One True TheDavid: If the castration complex continues to spread its advertising by shills like you


It is plainly obvious that your own issues with gender identity brought you into contact with people in the psychiatry profession that tried to lead you down a path you weren't meant to go. Now you're carrying some severe emotional baggage that causes you to see conspiracies everywhere, labeling anyone who doesn't agree with you as being complicit in their scheme.

Just because you may have had a bad experience does not negate transitioning as a treatment for others. Different strokes for different folks. It works for some people and not for others. But that doesn't matter to you. You're like a transsexual truther. It has to be a money making conspiracy, and most everyone in this thread must be in on it.

I'm no shill, but I'll never be able to convince you otherwise. Since others have pointed out that you're always like this, I'll just chalk you down as emotionally and psychologically crippled. There is no longer a point in talking with you or reading your tripe.


/add to ignore list
 
2012-10-31 03:14:46 AM

The One True TheDavid: Actually I'm a lifelong bisexual who spent his teen years as a flaming queen: I "felt" more female than male and even considered "SRS" or at least becoming "a chick with a dick."

Than goodness I didn't do that and eventually grew out of that phase. Now I see that it was just as crazy as believing the CIA would mess with me because I broke some 20 year old's heart at a rock show. And dammit, it was nice thinking I was the Messiah for two months. Confused, weak and desperate people can get all kinds of crazy ideas, even that they were "meant" to be born into another body.

You were saying...?.


I'm actually well aware that you identify as bisexual. Months before this thread, I had you farkied for that, along with the fact that you've made homophobic and biphobic comments in the past.

You being bisexual does not negate any of what you said. It just makes you more tragic. I'm sorry you are confused, weak and desperate. It doesn't mean all transgender folk are.
 
2012-10-31 04:13:45 AM
DO NOT WANT
i.dailymail.co.uk
 
2012-10-31 11:37:59 AM
Let's all do mental gymnastics so every bizarre mutation or dysfunctional person can feel as comfortable as possible and pretend they're normal.
Otherwise you're just a racist, homophobic hatemonger.
 
2012-10-31 11:48:15 AM

Ciper: DO NOT WANT
[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x417]


Not everyone can be Bailay Jay or Sarina Valentina.
 
2012-10-31 12:47:38 PM

doubled99: Let's all do mental gymnastics so every bizarre mutation or dysfunctional person can feel as comfortable as possible and pretend they're normal.
Otherwise you're just a racist, homophobic hatemonger.


How about "Let's not be assholes to people for reasons that have nothing to do with us and have no effect on our lives whatsoever." -can you try to play that game?
 
2012-10-31 02:05:10 PM

cassanovascotian: "Let's not be assholes to people for reasons that have nothing to do with us and have no effect on our lives whatsoever."


i am right there with you on that one. i only really talk about this stuff on fark; my personal feelings on the matter remain that "whatever gets you thru the night without pulling the trigger is cool with me". but one must also live in reality and face the fact that while their behavior or feelings may be very important to them, those same feelings and behaviors are often if not abhorrent then offensive to other "normal, regular" people. No, if you feel like you need to have a sex change, you are in no way "normal", even if those feelings are normal for YOU. Sex is a very personal and private thing and it is something that people feel very VERY strongly about, and people get upset when they think they are around things they view as "deviant". Now instead of trying to get people to accept transexuals openly at this point, maybe they should more work on getting people to mind their own business about sexual matters first.

Tansitional Excess: To claim that those of us outside of the gender binary are mentally/ emotionally imbalanced, are frustrated gay people, or are simply making it up; is simply ignorant to the point of silly.


to claim that people that want and desire sex changes have no mental issues is ignorant to the point of being flat ridiculous. there is a very good reason that they require so much therapy before they will perform operations for this stuff.
 
2012-10-31 03:17:16 PM
Terri Schiavo's Brain Cavity:

The One True TheDavid: If the castration complex continues to spread its advertising by shills like you

It is plainly obvious that your own issues with gender identity brought you into contact with people in the psychiatry profession that tried to lead you down a path you weren't meant to go.


If you mean to imply that she told me I was a deluded kid, pointed out that I wasn't really very feminine -- indeed acted very much like a teenaged BOY -- and prescribed a high dose of a strong antipsychotic then you're absolutely right.


Now you're carrying some severe emotional baggage

Ah yes, when you can't win the argument by fair means you allege your opponent has "evere emotional baggage."

that causes you to see conspiracies everywhere, labeling anyone who doesn't agree with you as being complicit in their scheme.

Boy, are you off the track. There doesn't have to be an organized conspiracy for surgeons who do expensive surgery to try to continue doing what they get paid for. All they have to do is prefer their own interests over the patients and publicly advance those interests.



Just because you may have had a bad experience does not negate transitioning as a treatment for others. Different strokes for different folks.

You know very next to nothing about my experience. What makes "transitioning" stupid for anyone to do is that's trying to address a social problem -- that some people feel their gender does not coincide with their what society expects of their chromosomal sex -- by mutilating the victims of this societal neurosis.


It works for some people and not for others.

So does praying to Jesus, for whatever "it works" might mean. So?


But that doesn't matter to you. You're like a transsexual truther.

The truth is transsexualism is a mental illness shoved onto people by society and then exploited by certain "helping professionals" as a job.


It has to be a money making conspiracy, and most everyone in this thread must be in on it.

Your imaginiation is getting away with you. Did you take your meds?


I'm no shill, but I'll never be able to convince you otherwise.

Yes you are. Put it this way: everybody who wears a T-shirt with a big designer label on the front is shilling for the designer. However unlike you in this thread most of them pay for the shirt, thereby paying to advertise the designer's products: that's truly sad.

Since others have pointed out that you're always like this, I'll just chalk you down as emotionally and psychologically crippled.

I've made no secret of being on SSI for "mental health issues," and I gather they get their money's worth. How does that make convincing troubled people to get their genitals mutilated a good thing?

I put it this way: even a crazy crank like me recognizes that getting "sex change surgery" is a stupid thing to do, and that it's immoral to participate in or even enable that act; so surely that simple fact should already be obvious to a sane and intelligent person like yourself. Why ain't it?


There is no longer a point in talking with you or reading your tripe.

/add to ignore list


Oh goody! I was just about to do that myself, because you'll never be able to change my mind and you clearly don't have one.

Toodle-oo!

/I know how to Ignore people too! See?
 
2012-10-31 03:22:15 PM
Ciper:

DO NOT WANT

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 634x417]


It'a a man, baby!
 
2012-10-31 03:32:44 PM

frepnog: i am right there with you on that one.


No. You're not. You're realizing that you're not as socially libertarian as you would like to believe and it's bothering you, so you're trying to have it both ways. You're trying to convince yourself that you're all "live and let live", but that desired self-image is coming up against this:

frepnog: those same feelings and behaviors are often if not abhorrent then offensive to other "normal, regular" people. No, if you feel like you need to have a sex change, you are in no way "normal", even if those feelings are normal for YOU. Sex is a very personal and private thing and it is something that people feel very VERY strongly about, and people get upset when they think they are around things they view as "deviant". Now instead of trying to get people to accept transexuals openly at this point, maybe they should more work on getting people to mind their own business about sexual matters first.


ok. Let's start with you. mind your own business.

frepnog: to claim that people that want and desire sex changes have no mental issues is ignorant to the point of being flat ridiculous.

You

are being flat-out rediculous. Yes, gender dysphoria is something that causes a lot of stress and difficulty. So does being gay -and that was regarded as a mental illness not so long ago, do you still believe that?

Bottom line: If you're one of the "normal, regular" people who finds transgendered people abhorrent, then stop and remind yourself of something: however it may offend your sensibilities, this has no impact on the rights of others to decide what they want to do with their own junk. It's not your body, it's not your life, and it's not your god-damn farking problem. So fark off.
 
2012-10-31 04:03:28 PM

cassanovascotian: frepnog: i am right there with you on that one.

No. You're not. You're realizing that you're not as socially libertarian as you would like to believe and it's bothering you, so you're trying to have it both ways. You're trying to convince yourself that you're all "live and let live", but that desired self-image is coming up against this:

frepnog: those same feelings and behaviors are often if not abhorrent then offensive to other "normal, regular" people. No, if you feel like you need to have a sex change, you are in no way "normal", even if those feelings are normal for YOU. Sex is a very personal and private thing and it is something that people feel very VERY strongly about, and people get upset when they think they are around things they view as "deviant". Now instead of trying to get people to accept transexuals openly at this point, maybe they should more work on getting people to mind their own business about sexual matters first.

ok. Let's start with you. mind your own business.

frepnog: to claim that people that want and desire sex changes have no mental issues is ignorant to the point of being flat ridiculous.

You are being flat-out rediculous. Yes, gender dysphoria is something that causes a lot of stress and difficulty. So does being gay -and that was regarded as a mental illness not so long ago, do you still believe that?

Bottom line: If you're one of the "normal, regular" people who finds transgendered people abhorrent, then stop and remind yourself of something: however it may offend your sensibilities, this has no impact on the rights of others to decide what they want to do with their own junk. It's not your body, it's not your life, and it's not your god-damn farking problem. So fark off.


first off, this is a fark thread open to discussion for anyone to join. so nope, i have every right to state an opinion on the matter. furthermore, when I have even ONE transsexual in the thread that agrees with me, my argument does in fact have a leg to stand on. yes, in my real life, I am friends with many people, gay, trans and otherwise, and yes, I feel that they have every right to be who they are without threat of persecution. what ever makes you happy.

do i believe "gay" is mental illness? no, it is a birth defect.
people that want to mutilate their genitals are mentally ill.
people that enable that illness are damned evil.
 
2012-10-31 04:17:47 PM

frepnog: first off, this is a fark thread open to discussion for anyone to join. so nope, i have every right to state an opinion on the matter. furthermore, when I have even ONE transsexual in the thread that agrees with me, my argument does in fact have a leg to stand on. yes, in my real life, I am friends with many people, gay, trans and otherwise, and yes, I feel that they have every right to be who they are without threat of persecution. what ever makes you happy.

do i believe "gay" is mental illness? no, it is a birth defect.
people that want to mutilate their genitals are mentally ill.
people that enable that illness are damned evil.


?
I really don't know what angle you're coming from on this, but I find myself agreeing with half of what you say...
so ok,... let's say I misinterpreted you above, but let's pin you down now.

Suppose cutting off my junk and living as a woman is what makes me happy, and suppose my friends and family accept that and use my preferred names and pronouns, and I go on to live a happy life as a chick. Are they evil, and am I mentally ill?

If the answer is "yes", then I'm sorry, but you simply cannot reconcile that position with the "whatever makes you happy" philosophy.
 
2012-10-31 05:20:50 PM

cassanovascotian: frepnog: first off, this is a fark thread open to discussion for anyone to join. so nope, i have every right to state an opinion on the matter. furthermore, when I have even ONE transsexual in the thread that agrees with me, my argument does in fact have a leg to stand on. yes, in my real life, I am friends with many people, gay, trans and otherwise, and yes, I feel that they have every right to be who they are without threat of persecution. what ever makes you happy.

do i believe "gay" is mental illness? no, it is a birth defect.
people that want to mutilate their genitals are mentally ill.
people that enable that illness are damned evil.

?
I really don't know what angle you're coming from on this, but I find myself agreeing with half of what you say...
so ok,... let's say I misinterpreted you above, but let's pin you down now.

Suppose cutting off my junk and living as a woman is what makes me happy, and suppose my friends and family accept that and use my preferred names and pronouns, and I go on to live a happy life as a chick. Are they evil, and am I mentally ill?

If the answer is "yes", then I'm sorry, but you simply cannot reconcile that position with the "whatever makes you happy" philosophy.


I feel that if what you are doing hurts no one then do what makes you happy. I don't think you should be denied a sex change it it truly is what you want. I do feel there is a mental problem with someone that wants to cut their dick off because no matter what surgery you have, you will never be a woman and living your life in a costume is no real answer. And evil may have been a strong word.
 
2012-10-31 05:51:59 PM

frepnog: I feel that if what you are doing hurts no one then do what makes you happy I don't think you should be denied a sex change it it truly is what you want.. I do feel there is a mental problem with someone that wants to cut their dick off because no matter what surgery you have, you will never be a woman and living your life in a costume is no real answer.


virulentwordofmouse.files.wordpress.com
I sense the conflict in you. The dark side hasn't taken over your soul completely. There's still good in you.

Seriously though bud, I'm gonna have to go back to my first impression on you. You want to be all "progressive" and "open minded", and you don't want to admit to the hate. You don't think they're "genuinely" part of the other gender? fine, leave them alone.
Saying that people who love and accept people after a transition are "enabling" them, and therefore doing something unethical?
Well that pretty much means that everyone should ostracize and isolate this person, removing all social supports from them -and that's a pretty shiatty kind of thing to advocate

Belittling people by saying that their expressed gender is a "costume" ?
Yeah, that's kinda getting into "hate" territory.

Classifying someone who's doing something with their own life and body, and which harms noone else as "mentally ill"?
Well, yeah, that's getting there too.

The fact is, there are plenty of well-adjusted people who have transitioned genders and gone on to lead very happy fullfilling lives, surrounded by people who love them. If transgendered people make you uncomfortable, and you don't want to deal them, fine. They probably don't want to deal with you either. But don't pretend that it's because you're concerned about their happiness, and don't pretend that your feelings aren't coming from a place of fear and discrimination. 

You can either be a puritanical moralist who feels entitled to dictate to others how they should manage their personal lives and their bodies, or you can be all "whatever makes you happy." But you can't be both.

thelawnsprinklerguys.com
choose wisely.
 
2012-10-31 07:11:47 PM
No one wants to have a relationship with fat chick with a dick in my opinion
 
2012-10-31 10:11:21 PM
sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken
 
2012-11-01 01:23:15 AM

charmingkiddo: sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken


I'm sorry, did that not work for you?
 
Displayed 166 of 166 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report