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(Daily Mail)   Britain's youngest sex change patient wants to become a man again after only a year because living as a woman has made her miserable. Why, it's almost like S/He had major psychological issues that should have been addressed first   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 166
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14815 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2012 at 9:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-30 10:36:46 AM

I_Can't_Believe_it's_not_Boutros: Cythraul: I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

Pom-poms. And you call yourself gay.


Whoops!
 
2012-10-30 10:38:37 AM

Exception Collection: Wollffeey: So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.

Heh. I know a few genderqueer people that have made that exact argument about why they considered transitioning to male.

Personally, I don't find them to be too unbearable... except for the time I missed my Depo-Estradial injection and for an insane reason decided to hold off a few days on getting it.


Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.
 
2012-10-30 10:39:32 AM

Chameleon: hdhale: If I had my way though, the doctor that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old would have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked--unethical in the one of the worst possible ways.

Good thing that there was no surgeon that performed a sex change operation on a 17 year old since the girl in the article hasn't had surgery. Way to read the article.

Also, nowhere did she say that she didn't really feel like a woman, or that she was happier in her old body. Only that female hormones made her moody (well duh) and that her family had completely disowned her. It's basically a sad situation that would be so much better if people stopped so much caring who had a penis and who didn't.


if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.
 
2012-10-30 10:40:35 AM

Wollffeey: Exception Collection: Wollffeey: So the hormones became too much to handle and the moodswings were unbearable. Why do you think so many women biatch about hormones? It's because they suck! If I didn't have to put up with monthly cycles, I wouldn't. However, I'm mentally mostly female so I don't have any inclination to transition to male.

Heh. I know a few genderqueer people that have made that exact argument about why they considered transitioning to male.

Personally, I don't find them to be too unbearable... except for the time I missed my Depo-Estradial injection and for an insane reason decided to hold off a few days on getting it.

Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.


I know I'm happy being a man. It seems in order for women to be able to physically carry a developing human before birth, they have to go through a lot of biological crap.
 
2012-10-30 10:42:32 AM

LowbrowDeluxe: theoutlaw: The article is intentionally misleading. This young individual is ceasing to live as a woman and take the hormone drugs. There has been no 'sex change' so far, and the reversal will not cost a great deal of money to the taxpayer. Transphobia stew.

It goes beyond that. It's the process working exactly as intended.

JackieRabbit: So far, he has only been on hormone therapy and received psychotherapy required before the reassignment surgery. He has not undergone any sex change. So the story is pure BS.

Oh, the horror, the horror. But I'm sure people will be along to be OUTRAGED as intended anyway.


That. Plus, apparently, his family kicked him out, and he's unemployed and effectively homeless. But no, the only possible reason for his depression must be the sex change. Outrage!
 
2012-10-30 10:42:48 AM
Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.
 
2012-10-30 10:43:25 AM

Cythraul: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.


Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.

From an armchair not-qualified-to-be-any-sort-of-psych's view, it seems like playing dress up, or even (semi?) permanently wearing a costume doesn't act as a sort of magical panacea that it's sometimes believed to be. The resultant letdown makes things worse - and that's not even taking into account the potentially negative impact from society. Those are just my guesses though.

What I find more interesting is the whole transgender concept. In my limited experience with male-to-female TGs, I note that they seem to define women based on cultural sterotypes. How they dress, what jobs they view as suitable, etc. Superficial changes like a dress or body shape define intrinsic 'femaleness' - when it's obvious that's just a cultural norm. Further research noted that - again, in the US only - there's a strong correlation between male-to-female TG's and being raised by a single mother, or being the youngest son. (I can't google for these links right now thanks to filters).

This isn't the case in other countries, such as Thailand.

What the armchair-psych in me says, is that perhaps in the US many of these individuals actually aren't transgender, but rather, at odds with themselves and society, and can probably obtain happiness by introspection, therapy, and time - as per kiwimoogle84's example.

Of course, by suggesting this, it means that both the anti-tg and pro-tg crowd will see me as the enemy. Oh well, it's not like I'm expecting either of them to engage rationally in what's obviously an emotionally charged issue with little common sense apparent. :)
 
2012-10-30 10:43:30 AM

SevenizGud: Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.


Are you saying you want to destroy yourself? That's kinda weird.
 
2012-10-30 10:43:48 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


Meh... 1/10. Come up with something more unique next time...
 
2012-10-30 10:43:51 AM

Wollffeey: Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.


/nods

One of the people - my wife - has a fairly severe case of PCOS. She can't take "normal" hormonal meds to control it anymore; she had a DVT (multiple clots) and almost died because of the increased blood clotting (combined with other issues). She was in the hospital for a week!
 
2012-10-30 10:46:15 AM

CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.


And if you're XXY? Or XYY? Or XXYY? Or XY but have AIS? Or XX but have a translocated SRY gene? Shiat, dude, parroting that old elementary-school level of science only makes you look ignorant and naive.
 
2012-10-30 10:47:57 AM
Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.
 
2012-10-30 10:49:16 AM

quietwalker: Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.


I really don't know what that means.
 
2012-10-30 10:51:01 AM

quietwalker: Cythraul: CrappityCrap: shiat like this is one of the many reasons why sex change operations are a worthless treatment for this kind of mental illness. Have an XY chromosome? You're a dude. Have an XX chromosome? Female. farking deal with it or get psychiatric help.

I have read where people with gender identity issues who undergo a sex change operation have had very positive effects in their lives post change. As long as the person in question can truly have such a positive outcome after a sex change operation, and if their desire for the change doesn't come from some other need in their lives, a need that wouldn't be resolved by a sex change, then I see no reason to deny or judge him or her for that decision since their choice to change their sex doesn't harm my life in the slightest.

And whether or not they were born with XX, or XY, how they identify themselves is important to them, and out of respect, I will identify them likewise. If he wants to become a she, and wishes to live that life and be identified in that way, I will no longer refer to that person as a male, and vice versa.

Most studies I've read focus specifically on male-to-female transgender folks in the US, so this may not be valid elsewhere, but; the majority of them appear to have severe psychological problems prior to any gender change (closeted and/or pre-op), and it's usually exacerbated afterwards. Depression, schizophrenia and various neurotic disorders are pretty common. The suicide rate skyrockets too.

From an armchair not-qualified-to-be-any-sort-of-psych's view, it seems like playing dress up, or even (semi?) permanently wearing a costume doesn't act as a sort of magical panacea that it's sometimes believed to be. The resultant letdown makes things worse - and that's not even taking into account the potentially negative impact from society. Those are just my guesses though.

What I find more interesting is the whole transgender concept. In my limited experience with male-to-fem ...


newsletter, subscription, blah blah blah
 
2012-10-30 10:52:39 AM
quietwalker
What the armchair-psych in me says, is that perhaps in the US many of these individuals actually aren't transgender, but rather, at odds with themselves and society, and can probably obtain happiness by introspection, therapy, and time - as per kiwimoogle84's example.



The only thing I find a bit disturbing is that my friend who got the sex change? He went through less counseling for it than I had to when I was discussing getting my tubes tied. For whatever reason, it's as if me choosing not to have children is more of a major decision than ALTERING MY BODY. I can always adopt later in life, but no, I choose not to have kids, and I had to get like six different doctors to sign off on it because I was under 25 and childless.

It's a tragedy that people are sometimes trapped in the wrong gender body, but someone upthread discussed that yes- a chiseled jaw and 6'4 and hairy does not a pretty lady make. You'll have a hard time, trust me. Meanwhile, a guy who's 5'5 and waifish and blonde? Sure, you'd probably pass. Heck, I have masculine features myself, and I'm amazed I look as feminine as I do sometimes.

It comes down to what you're sure you want. Whatever your choice, it's not exactly easy to go back, so be certain.
 
2012-10-30 10:53:57 AM

Exception Collection: Wollffeey: Imagine having hormone imbalances like that every month. I got diagnosed with polycystic ovaries when I was 18 (along with endometriosis). If I didn't take birth control, my hormones would be very random. Sometimes I think life would be easier as a man, but as I mentioned before, mentally I'm mostly female (maybe 60/40 female/male) so I'm happy with what I am for the most part.

/nods

One of the people - my wife - has a fairly severe case of PCOS. She can't take "normal" hormonal meds to control it anymore; she had a DVT (multiple clots) and almost died because of the increased blood clotting (combined with other issues). She was in the hospital for a week!


Geez, I hope that's not waiting in the wings for me. All this trouble just to be able to have a kid (and I'm not even sure if I *can* get pregnant). Oh well. Life and lemons.
 
2012-10-30 10:56:32 AM
If kids can't vote, drive a car, or drink , ( Make decisions for themselves) Then this should be reserved for adults.

Kids are confused anyway and just feeding everything they think of is not healthy. How many times do they change the idea of jobs when their older. I don't know about you but I think we need to concentrate on being whole people as we are born into. Genitals should never make one feel wrong. I'm not saying this for everyone. but a child should not hate him or herself for what they are looking like.
 
2012-10-30 10:59:46 AM
Wrong subby, it was born that way.
 
2012-10-30 11:00:47 AM

frepnog: if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.


Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?

Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation. Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue. Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies, to have brains that contain areas resembling brains of the other sex. Here's just a few:
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
This one's in Nature:A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

So believe what you want about transsexuality being purely psychological. Science suggests that you are wrong.
 
2012-10-30 11:04:26 AM
By the way, from that Nature paper:

Here we show that the volume of ...a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation.
 
2012-10-30 11:16:14 AM

SevenizGud: Abominations should be destroyed, not celebrated.


Wow, dude...you make me farking sick
 
2012-10-30 11:17:58 AM
cman:

I wish there was an easy answer to all of this.

There is: wanting a sex change operation is a strong indicator of a serious psychological problem. Gender does not equal sex; instead people should learn to live as feminine men or masculine women. Make society change for you, not the other way around.

And if adults insist on mutilating themselves that's fine, but sex change "treatments" should be denied to anyone under 18. It's at least as serious as voting, right?

And by the way, the drinking age should be lowered to 18 for beer and wine, like it was in MD when I was that age, or the Age of Majority should be raised to 21 across the board.

There should also be free public Euthanasia Centres set up at least in every major city, where adults can go to have themselves peacefully and gently "out to sleep."

Yet abortion, of course, should be provided free and in complete confidentiality to all women of childbearing age. The only qualifications should be a) pregnancy and b) the desire the end it; if you're old enough to have gotten pregnant you're old enough to abort. If that includes "odd" cases one reads about, such as the 8 year old girl in Brazil who got knocked up by her mother's boyfriend, then so be it: the kid's already been molested, why force her to be a mother on top of it?

Easy answers are easily arrived at, as they should be by any relatively well-informed, clear-headed and intelligent person: that's what makes them easy answers.

The problem is counteracting all the BS that "society" and "the media" brainwash people with, such as when somebody urges prayer to turn a hurricane (perhaps onto another area full of people) instead of getting to higher and drier ground. But then belief in a personal God who can affect such things is in itself a strong sign of serious psychological issues; perhaps such people can be encouraged to "go to Heaven" at free public euthanasia centres.

This PSA has been provided to you free of charge in the discharge of my civic duties as a citizen of the world and a netizen of cyberspace. You're very welcome.
 
2012-10-30 11:26:01 AM

Theaetetus: And if you're XXY? Or XYY? Or XXYY? Or XY but have AIS? Or XX but have a translocated SRY gene? Shiat, dude, parroting that old elementary-school level of science only makes you look ignorant and naive.


I just checked my label. Apparently I'm a YKK.
 
2012-10-30 11:35:45 AM
Cythraul:
FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.


I'm not sure WTF I thought you were talking about here...

POM POMS
 
2012-10-30 11:36:57 AM
This is what happens when you indulge teenagers and their angst-ridden problems.
 
2012-10-30 11:37:17 AM

Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!


What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?
 
2012-10-30 11:37:45 AM

No Such Agency: Cythraul:
FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's palm palms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

I'm not sure WTF I thought you were talking about here...

POM POMS


Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.
 
2012-10-30 11:39:13 AM
seniorgato:

Be honest with yourself.
If you look in the mirror and see a guy. I mean, literally SEE a guy. Not like, "I know who I am". I mean, the facial structure, the body structure etc.
Just move on. It would take a miracle for you to come out looking like a normal woman. That or just Scrooge McDuck money.


This too.

I'm sure I'd be even uglier in drag.
 
2012-10-30 11:39:28 AM

FuryOfFirestorm: Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!

What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?


I"m a gay male. My gross incestual incestuous games were reserved for me and my brothers.
 
2012-10-30 11:42:50 AM
The earth is flat!- You are crazy!

The government may have done 9/11 to start a war for profit among the presidents friends at the time- You are crazy!

Aliens are beaming signals into my brain!- You are crazy!

I am jesus- You are crazy!

I am a woman trapped in a mans body and my penis is causing me emotional distress!- Such a brave soul, welcome to society!
 
2012-10-30 11:49:46 AM
According to the article, he didn't have the peener removed yet, so essentially this must involve getting off the hormone treatments and waiting until the boobies recede. Basically I think anyone who wants to have a sex change is deranged, so I guess psychological therapy shouldn't be required before they do it.
 
2012-10-30 11:51:35 AM
Sad. Aren't you supposed to "walk a mile in their shoes" for a year or longer before they start any kind of hormone or other therapy? Maybe they did but it seems like this person could have changed his (her?) mind before the therapy. Regardless, I really don't think something like this should be done on a person going through puberty. I mean, that shiat is confusing enough without throwing more hormones of any sort into the mix.
 
2012-10-30 11:52:29 AM

Chameleon: frepnog: if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?

Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation. Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue. Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies, to have brains that contain areas resembling brains of the other sex. Here's just a few:
Transsexual differences caught on brain scan
Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus
This one's in Nature:A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality

So believe what you want about transsexuality being purely psychological. Science suggests that you are wrong.


and yet here we are, with sex changes usually not fixing the issue. i get that there is scientific data backing up what you say, I really do, and I am not trying to disparage the transgender person. Whatever gets you thru the day without pulling the trigger is cool with me. I really thing however that a large percent of the transgender community would be much better off learning to be happy with what they have and trying to build a relationship with a person of the gender that they are attracted to, instead of opting for surgery that solves nothing and wearing what amounts to a costume for the rest of their life while taking meds to try and fool their body into believing that it is something that is quite IS NOT.

for alot of those people, admitting to themselves that they are probably gay would solve more issues that chopping off their dick. because let's face it - admitting to oneself that one is gay is farking HARD, not to mention admitting it to friends\family. SHOULD it be? probably not, but shiat is what shiat is.
 
2012-10-30 11:57:01 AM

quietwalker: Hey, side question from a slashdot article yesterday that pointed here

When someone says, "As a queer/genderqueer woman," what information are they trying to convey to me? I'm guessing that they're:
- born male
- transgender female
- pre-op
- sexually attracted to men
- pretentious douchebag attempting to solicit attention through repeated use of the word 'queer'

Is ... that right? I mean, I know the last item is right based on the linked post and other posts the individual made, but, I'm a bit lost.


Nope. In fact, all three GQ people I know are female-sexed at birth.

Genderqueer means that you don't feel a feeling of belonging to either sex; many of them have considered transition but decided that it's not worth the issues to solve what they consider an inconvenience more than a problem - for example, having periods or expecting to meet womanly expectations.
 
2012-10-30 12:01:34 PM
Those female hormones aren't all they're cracked up to be, eh? Little bit scary at times? Yeah, same here.
 
2012-10-30 12:03:39 PM
Not sure how admitting that one is gay is harder than admitting that one us trapped in the wing gender's body?
 
2012-10-30 12:04:37 PM
Jeeeeeez. iPhone. Autocorrect the right way! Is not us..... Wrong not wing...
 
2012-10-30 12:06:00 PM
Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.
 
2012-10-30 12:06:20 PM
frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")


sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

Bingo.


/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Most of the "MTFs" I've met are like that. And most of them would make ugly and masculine-looking "women" but are decent looking as men. "Honey, get over it: you're a TWINK."

Those people who are naturally androgynous in appearance and temperament don't need anything done to them either, regardless of their sexual desires, except maybe moving out of a hostile area to a more easy-going one. Which is to say once you've moved from Knoxville TN to San Francisco or Los Angeles your "need" for a "sex change" is moot: whoever you are there will be a subculture there that's into it. (I saw personal ads that sounded something like "SWM, 32, Ivy League education, seeks alcoholic double-amputee of either sex who's very into quadratic equations. Must be or be willing to become blond.")

E.g., as a swishy young bisexual it was easy for me to hook up with lesbians there, I just had to catch them when their penis-hating friends weren't around. And if she hasn't been with a male in 15 years, and has had a decent amount of experience with women, I was flattered she'd even seriously consider it: in my day the lesbian community was close-knit and "clannish" enough to shun gay women who "betrayed the sisterhood," for one thing.

But anyway. If your inner nature conflicts with society's" view of what you should be like that's society's problem and calls for change on its part. If room can and should be made for people of African descent why should it be different for you?
 
2012-10-30 12:09:58 PM

sweatybronson: Not sure how admitting that one is gay is harder than admitting that one us trapped in the wing gender's body?


one is admitting that one is sexually attracted to one's own sex.

one is trying to convince oneself that one is "stuck in the wrong body". which can at it's most base level translates to "i am a dude that is sexually attracted to other dudes". let's face it - how do male transexuals "live as the other sex"? by wearing dresses and makeup and pantyhose and shaving their legs, all of which is nothing more than pretending with social constructs. while STILL being attracted to one's own sex.

don't give me any speeches about "straight" transgender people either. what the fark does that even mean? that a "straight" transexual male is really a lesbian in a man's body? dear lord.
 
2012-10-30 12:12:05 PM

Cythraul: To people out there thinking about getting a sex change, I really wish you'd spend a good year or two thinking this decision through. All you jerks out there who get the change and then want to change back make the rest of the transgender community look like psychos.

*sigh*


Complete agree as well as what was said about delaying puberty. As much as I want a gender reassignment it is a little late in the game for me to make the complete transition. If we had today's tech and therapy while I was a child and could have taking hormone blocks and made a transition at the earliest convenience I would have gladly taken that opportunity and never looked back. This is not to say if I found a bottle and genie I would only need one wish...

It is reasons like this that it is such a lengthy process here to make sure you are ready to go through the re-assignment.
 
2012-10-30 12:13:01 PM

The One True TheDavid: frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")


sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

Bingo.


/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Most of the "MTFs" I've met are like that. And most of them would make ugly and masculine-looking "women" but are decent looking as men. "Honey, get over it: you're a TWINK."

Those people who are naturally androgynous in appearance and temperament don't need anything done to them either, regardless of their sexual desires, except maybe moving out of a hostile area to a more easy-going one. Which is to say once you've moved from Knoxville TN to San Francisco or Los Angeles your "need" for a "sex change" is moot: whoever you are there will be a subculture there that's into it. (I saw personal ads that sounded something like "SWM, 32, Ivy League education, seeks alcoholic double-amputee of either sex who's very into quadratic equations. Must be or be willing to become blond.")

E.g., as a swishy young bisexual it was easy for me to hook up with lesbians there, I just had to catch them when their penis-hating friends weren't around. And if she hasn't been with a male in 15 years, and has had a decent amount of experience with women, I was flattered she'd even seriously consider it: in my day the lesbian community was close-knit and "clannish" enough to shun gay women who "betrayed the sisterhood," for one thing.

But anyway. If y ...


i wanna have yer babies.
 
2012-10-30 12:18:19 PM

Chameleon: frepnog:

sex change operations rarely fix the underlying issues and mostly just mutilate a perfectly functioning body.

/still think transgender people that want sex changes are often actually gay people that can't deal with that fact.

Fascinating theory, Watson. Where did you get your degree in neurobiology?


What do transexxual operations have to do with neurobiology?


Seriously, there is WAY more to being transgender than the physical equipment or sexual orientation.

Sure, like serious psychological problems. We've each said that.


Trans people are sometimes straight and sometimes gay (before or after transition). A huge number of transgender people choose to forgo surgery but still feel more comfortable living as their trans-sex.

And they should go ahead and do that. That's exactly what I would urge: live as you want but forgo surgery.


Gendering seems to be an actual neurological issue.

Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.


Transgendered people have been found, in numerous studies...

..funded and conducted by those groups, corporations and people who have vested financial and political interests in furthering this "field"...

Seriously, we'd expect the NRA and Smith-Wesson to produce studies "proving" that guns are great and should be commonly accepted (and bought); why would we expect anything different of another vested interest simply because its personnel have "MD" or "PhD" after their names?

Sheesh. Want a buy some "real" estate?
 
2012-10-30 12:23:31 PM

alice_600: Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.


Why? Let's assume for the sake of argument that it is a psychological issue: the body is gender A, the mind is gender B, so there's a mismatch. Okay, now what?
Pragmatically, it's actually far easier to do the surgery. We know a lot about how the body physically and physiologically works. But the mind? Shiat, we still don't really know how depression works, and that's the easy one. We throw a lot of drugs at people because "in clinical trials, on average, people are less likely to off themselves" or "people report feeling slightly better on a vague subjective self-reported scale". Uh, okay? That doesn't mean we know how the brain works.
Consider therapy itself - it's primarily counseling more than anything else: guiding the patient to reconsider their circumstances and essentially "heal" themselves. That alone should indicate that we don't know exactly how it works, any more than we know why a placebo may actually result in physiological changes.

So, you've got:
1) surgery which is fully understood and has been shown to pretty reliably address the underlying mind-body mismatch; or
2) therapy which isn't really understood, and may or may not work for a particular patient, and we have no way of predicting whether it will.

As you note, we need more reform and honesty - particularly, we need people to be honest about therapy not being a magic panacea that we should be prescribing to everyone to the exclusion of other treatments.
 
2012-10-30 12:23:49 PM

alice_600: Re: suffering in silence. You're making these people live an arbitrary extra number of years in the wrong body. You're making it harder for them to ...

Hey if I as a woman have to wait till their 30 to get my tubes tied you can wait till your 25 to get your dicks whacked off.
Transgender always makes me think of the depression where people want to cut their limbs off to feel better. I always wondered if it could be in the same spectrum. I know this sounds ignorant but you never know when it comes to science.
But I think the big thing here is that there needs to be reform and tighter more difficult tests and more honesty. If a therapist thinks there is a psychological issue no matter how small it needs to be dealt with first before surgery.


Sounds like you don't know the process or the issues very well.

First - being transgender can mask issues. See my above comment about anxiety in groups.

Second - being transgender can CAUSE issues, some of which appear to be unrelated. For example, pre-transition I had a near crippling fear of dogs; it vanished the week I started hormones.

Third - the process includes therapy - and lots of it. Last I heard it was: 3 months before starting hormones, continuing a minimum of another YEAR before surgery is OK'd. MINIMUM. At that point, a second therapist must be seen, and both therapists and the physician providing HRT prescriptions must recommend for the surgery to happen.

As for it being similar to wanting to lose limbs, it's closer to the phantom pain those that have already lost limbs feel: the brain expects one thing, and when the body throws a "404 vagina not found" it gets confused.
 
2012-10-30 12:26:29 PM

The One True TheDavid: Which doesn't need to be "fixed" with surgery. Rather it needs those social filters regarding sex and gender readjusted.


I bet I could find a surgeon who could describe in perfect detail how to perform gender reassignment surgery before you could find a "social engineer" who can describe in perfect detail how to "adjust filters". I'd even put money on it. How about you?
 
2012-10-30 12:28:09 PM

Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Cythraul: FuryOfFirestorm: Same here. I'm into guys, and I've never felt uncomfortable being a male or felt the urge to change my gender. The closest i've come to that was trying on my sister's high heels when I was 6, and that's only because I was curious how anyone could walk in those damn things.

I did that once. It was fun, like some sort of circus ring acrobatic challenge. I also played with my sister's pom-poms once. Hey, I was a kid and they were somewhat fluffy things that made noise and looked neat when you shook 'em around.

/don't judge me!

What other gross incestual games did you play with your sister, you sick, sick man?

I"m a gay male. My gross incestual incestuous games were reserved for me and my brothers.




Why would a six-year-old play with boobies? I was interested in Hot Wheels cars at that age.
 
2012-10-30 12:31:20 PM

frepnog: The One True TheDavid: frepnog:

if this were more true, that people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't, these problems wouldn't exist because the transgender person with a penis that didn't want it wouldn't care if he had a penis or not.

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't then one would accept the genitals one was born with as just another fact of life that doesn't need anything done about it. ("I feel like Jennifer Aniston but look like Samuel Jackson. Oh well, c'est la vie!")

Actually if people stopped caring about who had a penis and who didn't you wouldn't exist. The genitals are there for reproduction and identity. Our bodies and appearance tell how good our genes are and how fertile we are when it comes to finding a mate. Because of birth control a lot of women don't find muscle bound he men attractive. They tend to prefer men who are almost feminine or androgenis (tight jeans is a turn on for me). As someone who is on the pill I can believe it since most of the men I dated and farked look like Noel Fielding, Russell Brand before he started to fark Katy Perry and asian guys who almost look like girls.

 
2012-10-30 12:41:21 PM

Exception Collection: Apok451: Thats probably the best course. As teenagers what you want changes from day to day, sometimes even from minute to minute. Though some do know for sure what they want, its just not common, but still should give it time and lots of thought. I wouldnt want to have a sex changes at all, I like what I have as it is. Though I could see how some guys may want to give it up for a magnificent set of tits. Though I do seriously wonder how many of the male to female transgenders have trouble keeping their own hands off their new boobs? I know my personal mindset and I would play with them endlessly and ask people if they wanted to see them, lol.

... Believe me, it takes effort. Though I don't ask other people if they want to see them; the one time someone other than my wife/doctors asked to see them I handed them a breast*form*.


That is part of my dilemma as I am considering getting a boob job instead of constantly taking off / putting on my breastforms constantly. Afterwards the sticker that I have in my room that states "Yes my tits are real and so is my penis" would be more truthful.
 
2012-10-30 12:43:14 PM
Cythraul:
Yes. The correct spelling has been established in the thread. It is now seconded. I now conclude that the spelling is 'Pom Poms.' We now have it noted in the log.

There's a... log? Oh god. Oh god. I've been posting shiat here for years. Oh god.
 
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