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(ABC) NewsFlash The worst case scenario has occurred: NYU Medical Center has lost all power and oxygen supplies. Hundreds of people, including newborns and children, are being evacuated   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 832
    More: NewsFlash, NYU Medical Center, New York University, Medical Center, emergency power system, NYU Langone Medical Center, New York Presbyterian Hospital, New York Fire Department, Weill Cornell Medical College  
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12973 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2012 at 1:20 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-10-30 02:32:22 AM

Smeggy Smurf:

Neither are stable for long term storage and are highly reactive. You can cause an explosion with either of those fuels with a simple industrial accident. Diesel on the other hand is difficult to ignite in such a manner.

If you're really interested in fuels storage I'd recommend you spend some time researching aviation fuel farms. Most of what I deal with are 500 gallon storage tanks for grocery stores.


Thanks for the info. I am an electrician i usually only deal with small scale systems mainly residential 10-20k propane/nat gas systems or portable generators and transfer panels. Did do 2 sewage pump stations many years ago with 40 and 60kw diesel and kerosene
 
2012-10-30 02:32:42 AM

Yoyo: we're smart enough to buy generators that are water resistant. T


The problem isn't the generators, it's the fuel supply.

relcec: the people to blame are the folks that were put in charge of disaster preparedness of that hospital after 9/11 or the higher ups who refused to take their recommendations on making the power supply safer if they were made aware of the danger.


So you have a copy of their disaster plans and full engineering drawings for their back up systems?
 
2012-10-30 02:33:12 AM

quickdraw: relcec: quickdraw: relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.

Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.


you are saying making sure the few dozen redundant systems (that happen to support vital life and death infrastructure in a community [Manhattan] where the property is worth 1 $trillion in the aggregate, and that is right above sea level and right next to the atlantic ocean) can actually perform offers way to low in the way of marginal utility to be considered a worthwhile the investment?
this isn't spending billions to save your 16 year old dogs life for a few months.

No I am saying that there are some problems (many really) that all the money in the world can't fix. Problems that are nuanced and complex with very high stakes are often not solved by throwing money at them.


and one intractable problem is moving generators and fuel higher up? we're not talking about going to alpha cenuari. how much you want to bet japan managed to move shiat out of the basements and a story up? how much?
 
2012-10-30 02:33:19 AM

BronyMedic: Also known as Murphy's Law.


Nah, Murphy's Law is a design principle; people will be as stupid as you let them, so design accordingly.
 
2012-10-30 02:34:05 AM

saintstryfe: lecavalier: xl5150: BronyMedic: Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.

Boo-hoo. It's hard to feel bad for them when simple planning ahead on their part would have avoided such a situation.

I've been really, really critical of the way we have acted in Westchester County because there isn't dick going on up here beyond some minor inconveniences, but in the city? LOL, that is a whole other thing and you are an idiot to think otherwise.

Agreed. I'm in Ulster, about 30 minutes north of Westchester by the Thruway, and we haven't had anything but a bad rainstorm. Our last bad rainstorm in September three big limbs came down - no such problems this time (that I can see with a flashlight). The storms path basically hooked directly around us.

All I know is everyone here is on call to our various professions - I'm a Librarian, and going down to offer assistance to any RM or archival store that is in serious disaster mode, and my older brother is a Master Electrician, he's going to be down there sorting wire very soon.


Don't. Stay in place. The last thing they need are people who are not expected, or prepared to be self sufficient, rushing in to help at the moment. You need to shelter in place until the situation is safe.
 
2012-10-30 02:34:48 AM

BronyMedic: themeaningoflifeisnot: Anyway, what is the status of the transferred patients? Have all been transferred successfully?

NYU website is down and wont load for me.

As of two hours ago, they had gotten 215 of the almost 800 patients out. So Assuming that it's a hundred an hour, I'd say they're 50% there.


Are they evacuating all the patients? I read reports that they were evacuating only about 200 of them.
 
2012-10-30 02:34:56 AM

relcec: how much you want to bet japan managed to move shiat out of the basements and a story up?


For example:
i.imgur.com
 
2012-10-30 02:35:03 AM

keytronic: I beg you. If you have any sway at all over the Romney campaign. Get them to try to call this Obama's Katrina. Please, think of all the votes Romney will earn for himself if, in the middle of a crisis, he calls a press conference, pretends to care about all the suffering newborns, blames Obama, then smirks.


I don't think Romney's people are dumb enough to rise to the bait, but I'm certain this will be all over Fox News tomorrow. Clearly, this is proof that Obama has failed as President.
 
2012-10-30 02:35:07 AM
this thread has rapidly become two bald old men, knee high in shiat fighting over a plunger.
 
2012-10-30 02:36:19 AM

relcec: and one intractable problem is moving generators and fuel higher up?


Yes it is. I know it frightens you to realize that some problems cannot be fixed.
 
2012-10-30 02:36:22 AM

Haliburton Cummings: this thread has rapidly become two bald old men, knee high in shiat fighting over a plunger.


if the plunger was elevated in the first place, it wouldn't have come to blows
 
2012-10-30 02:36:28 AM

themeaningoflifeisnot: Are they evacuating all the patients? I read reports that they were evacuating only about 200 of them.


My understanding is they're undertaking a general evacuation based on the comments on Paramedics on Facebook and JEMS' facebook page.
 
2012-10-30 02:36:51 AM

Haliburton Cummings: this thread has rapidly become two bald old men, knee high in shiat fighting over a plunger.


I laughed.
 
2012-10-30 02:37:28 AM

Haliburton Cummings: this thread has rapidly become two bald old men, knee high in shiat fighting over a plunger.


Meh. you haven't been here long enough to see a real Fark shiatstorm. The threads during and after Katrina were particularly bad.
 
2012-10-30 02:38:59 AM

BronyMedic: themeaningoflifeisnot: Anyway, what is the status of the transferred patients? Have all been transferred successfully?

NYU website is down and wont load for me.

As of two hours ago, they had gotten 215 of the almost 800 patients out. So Assuming that it's a hundred an hour, I'd say they're 50% there.


Thats pretty good. That is probably most if not all of the ones whose life was in immediate danger if NYU has a typical trauma center percentage of patients. Not that all of them dont need a better place to be. But most patients wouldnt be in instant danger when the lights went out. NICU SICU PACU OR some ER and maternity ward patients would need all the help possible fast. Most of the rest would need to be calmed reassured and helped through this, but they arent in such dire immediate need.
 
2012-10-30 02:39:11 AM

BronyMedic: What I'm saying is, for those patients, it IS the worst case scenario. These are patients for which it's life-threatening to even move them down the elevator into the X-ray suite. And as for my passion blinding me? Dude, I work with NICU transports. These babies don't take stimulation well - they tend to clamp up, brady down, and die with it.



If I never get the chance to say this I'm saying it now. Thank you for what you do. Its people like you that saved my friend's daughter's life when she was born from a uterine infection on the razor's edge of viability.
 
2012-10-30 02:39:38 AM

BronyMedic: themeaningoflifeisnot: Are they evacuating all the patients? I read reports that they were evacuating only about 200 of them.

My understanding is they're undertaking a general evacuation based on the comments on Paramedics on Facebook and JEMS' facebook page.


Makes sense if the entire hospital is without power.
 
2012-10-30 02:39:46 AM

Kuroshin: quickdraw: Propane is a tricky gas - not at all stable. Natural gas is even worse. Diesel is the most stable which is why they use it for emergencies.

And much higher energy density. Longer run-time.


Sure, but natural gas can be delivered as needed by the city wide distribution system, so there is no storage needed. Was there an earthquake along with the flood that I haven't heard about?
 
2012-10-30 02:40:10 AM
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2012-10-30 02:40:58 AM

Somacandra: f I never get the chance to say this I'm saying it now. Thank you for what you do. Its people like you that saved my friend's daughter's life when she was born from a uterine infection on the razor's edge of viability.


I appreciate it, but please don't thank me, some random guy posting on fark who's off work for a bad case of Bronchitis. Thank those guys down there in the muck right now.
 
2012-10-30 02:41:05 AM

Yoyo: Kuroshin: quickdraw: Propane is a tricky gas - not at all stable. Natural gas is even worse. Diesel is the most stable which is why they use it for emergencies.

And much higher energy density. Longer run-time.

Sure, but natural gas can be delivered as needed by the city wide distribution system, so there is no storage needed. Was there an earthquake along with the flood that I haven't heard about?


That distribution system needs electricity to work.
 
2012-10-30 02:41:19 AM

doglover: eraser8: Neonatal

WhyteRaven74: Neonatal

BronyMedic: WTF is a NICU, anyway?

Many tanks.

[images.wikia.com image 300x243]


Well technically yes, the Mr. Picky in me wants to say that the US Army designated some of those Scout Cars to get around funding restraints. ;)
 
2012-10-30 02:41:50 AM

Magorn: MisterTweak: pxlboy: Evacuated to where, exactly?

Mt. Sinai, Columbia, HSS, Doctors, St. Vincents....

I think Saint Vinny's closed last year-mom went to nursing school there in 1960 and the alumns had a memorial dinner


Doh. I forgot. Well, I think we can assume *that* group of patients is going to be pretty pissed when they get booted from an ambulance to the front of a half-built condo. Comment cards will likely not be positive.

/moved away a few years ago
 
2012-10-30 02:42:01 AM

pissedoffmick: Do you think that a guy named "NYC" owns all the generators? Norton Yancy Chillingworth - generator man.



He wasn't there, but he's certain that they didn't test their generators. He knows this because if a machine worked a few days ago under perfect conditions, there's no possible way it could not be working now in the middle of a storm. Machines don't work one day and then not work later, right? Every machine I've ever used -- especially those gas-burning ones -- work perfectly every single time. Fark, I don't even see mechanic shops anymore, they're so trustworthy and infallible. And if a machine breaks on you, you must be a moron who doesn't know half as much about disasters as a guy living the rough, survivalist lifestyle of Beverly Hills residents.
 
2012-10-30 02:42:06 AM

HaywoodJablonski: saintstryfe: lecavalier: xl5150: BronyMedic: Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.

Boo-hoo. It's hard to feel bad for them when simple planning ahead on their part would have avoided such a situation.

I've been really, really critical of the way we have acted in Westchester County because there isn't dick going on up here beyond some minor inconveniences, but in the city? LOL, that is a whole other thing and you are an idiot to think otherwise.

Agreed. I'm in Ulster, about 30 minutes north of Westchester by the Thruway, and we haven't had anything but a bad rainstorm. Our last bad rainstorm in September three big limbs came down - no such problems this time (that I can see with a flashlight). The storms path basically hooked directly around us.

All I know is everyone here is on call to our various professions - I'm a Librarian, and going down to offer assistance to any RM or archival store that is in serious disaster mode, and my older brother is a Master Electrician, he's going to be down there sorting wire very soon.

Noble cause and all, but you should stay where you are. The last thing they need is non-critical personnel clogging up the roads/trains while they deal with actual emergencies.


It's important, don't down play it. The fact is - if it's wet, it has to be taken care of. It's important... it's our records. It's how we research, learn, grow from the past. I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management. Getting my MLS we had whole courses just devoted to it.
 
2012-10-30 02:43:06 AM
The people complaining that they didn't have a disaster plan or have a poor disaster plan are overlooking the extremely obvious point that *this is part of the disaster plan*. Backup generators are the first phase of such a plan but you also have to plan on what to do when those fail for one of any number of reasons. The generators failed and they quickly moved to the next level of a controlled evacuation which, by most accounts, is going rather well. Obviously transporting unstable patients is extremely risky but you have to deal with the situation at hand immediately and worry about pointing fingers at a later date.

No system can ever be 100% reliant, there will be many long investigations into what went wrong and who, if anyone, is to blame, but arguing about such things with no facts and while the situation is still critical is absolutely pointless.
 
2012-10-30 02:43:33 AM
Why are they letting newborns and children have Taco Bell?
 
2012-10-30 02:44:04 AM

Yoyo: Bonanza Jellybean: xl5150: That's what you get for not being prepared.

/there are these things called backup generators
//novel concept, I know

The did have backup generators, but the story is that unexpectedly high water levels ruined their deisel(sic.) supply.

I was going to guess that the starter batteries were dead or the oil levels were too low due to lack of preventive maintenance. Who doesn't make a fluid tight fuel tank? Seriously. And so what if the flood water levels are 4 feet higher than record. Why can't they just put the generators on the roof with the HVAC equipment?


Your first two guesses would be wrong because hospitals test their generators every month.
 
2012-10-30 02:44:23 AM

saintstryfe: It's important, don't down play it. The fact is - if it's wet, it has to be taken care of. It's important... it's our records. It's how we research, learn, grow from the past. I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management. Getting my MLS we had whole courses just devoted to it.


I don't doubt that in the least, but you really don't want to get out and start freelancing right now. You actually become an impediment to rescue operations, and a potential victim who needs rescued themselves. It's not just the water, but also what's in it as well. At this point, life safety is going to take major priority over recovery of records.

If you want to help, find out where there's a local shelter or staging area for volunteers open, and if you can make it there safely, do so and volunteer your help.
 
2012-10-30 02:44:26 AM

saintstryfe: HaywoodJablonski: saintstryfe: lecavalier: xl5150: BronyMedic: Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.

Boo-hoo. It's hard to feel bad for them when simple planning ahead on their part would have avoided such a situation.

I've been really, really critical of the way we have acted in Westchester County because there isn't dick going on up here beyond some minor inconveniences, but in the city? LOL, that is a whole other thing and you are an idiot to think otherwise.

Agreed. I'm in Ulster, about 30 minutes north of Westchester by the Thruway, and we haven't had anything but a bad rainstorm. Our last bad rainstorm in September three big limbs came down - no such problems this time (that I can see with a flashlight). The storms path basically hooked directly around us.

All I know is everyone here is on call to our various professions - I'm a Librarian, and going down to offer assistance to any RM or archival store that is in serious disaster mode, and my older brother is a Master Electrician, he's going to be down there sorting wire very soon.

Noble cause and all, but you should stay where you are. The last thing they need is non-critical personnel clogging up the roads/trains while they deal with actual emergencies.

It's important, don't down play it. The fact is - if it's wet, it has to be taken care of. It's important... it's our records. It's how we research, learn, grow from the past. I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management. Getting my MLS we had whole courses just devoted to it.


Very true.
 
2012-10-30 02:44:36 AM
The NY Times is reporting that there are only 215 patients at the NYU Med Center and NBC NY is saying only 215 patients will be evacuated. ????
 
2012-10-30 02:44:48 AM

themeaningoflifeisnot: Somacandra: themeaningoflifeisnot: I'm a lot more concerned about the out-of-control Queens fire.

Source? Can't find any information.

FDNY and EMS channel feeds and FDNY twitter and ABC live blog.


Thanks---found it. Friends in Astoria.
 
2012-10-30 02:45:22 AM
Could we as a country as least take away the lesson that major population centers SHOULD get priority emergency management funding over corn-based states? This is coming from a guy who LIVES in a corn-based state. If a bomb went off in rural southern Indiana, the world would be out a bomb.

/Stay safe Northeastern folks
 
2012-10-30 02:45:53 AM

BronyMedic: I appreciate it, but please don't thank me, some random guy posting on fark who's off work for a bad case of Bronchitis. Thank those guys down there in the muck right now.


I can't thank them right now--so you'll have to stand in for them. :-)
 
2012-10-30 02:46:27 AM

Seige101: How about a propane or natural gas generator?


Approves
theredshtick.com
 
2012-10-30 02:46:38 AM

Medic Zero: Your first two guesses would be wrong because hospitals test their generators every month.


Every week by law here
 
2012-10-30 02:46:42 AM

BronyMedic: saintstryfe: lecavalier: xl5150: BronyMedic: Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.

Boo-hoo. It's hard to feel bad for them when simple planning ahead on their part would have avoided such a situation.

I've been really, really critical of the way we have acted in Westchester County because there isn't dick going on up here beyond some minor inconveniences, but in the city? LOL, that is a whole other thing and you are an idiot to think otherwise.

Agreed. I'm in Ulster, about 30 minutes north of Westchester by the Thruway, and we haven't had anything but a bad rainstorm. Our last bad rainstorm in September three big limbs came down - no such problems this time (that I can see with a flashlight). The storms path basically hooked directly around us.

All I know is everyone here is on call to our various professions - I'm a Librarian, and going down to offer assistance to any RM or archival store that is in serious disaster mode, and my older brother is a Master Electrician, he's going to be down there sorting wire very soon.

Don't. Stay in place. The last thing they need are people who are not expected, or prepared to be self sufficient, rushing in to help at the moment. You need to shelter in place until the situation is safe.


Don't worry - I'm not moving until I get an all-clear. I do gotta go to work tomorrow, after all. Higher callings are only to be answered once Earthly matters are met.
 
2012-10-30 02:47:55 AM

saintstryfe: It's important, don't down play it. The fact is - if it's wet, it has to be taken care of. It's important... it's our records. It's how we research, learn, grow from the past. I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management. Getting my MLS we had whole courses just devoted to it.


If you do go, check the smaller museums and archives. The big boys are well-prepared, but the small places often aren't.

(The Morgan spent about five years after 9/11 blasting a bomb-proof crypt into the bedrock under their complex to store all their material in; it's the sort of archive God would build if he had the money)
 
2012-10-30 02:48:23 AM

BronyMedic: LIVE FEED OF FDNY FIRE COMMUNICATIONS FROM QUEENS, INCLUDING EVACUATION

Click here to listen.

Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.


malkintothekings.files.wordpress.com

In our moment of triumph??
 
2012-10-30 02:48:34 AM

PreMortem: Why are they letting newborns and children have Taco Bell?


They only said the're serving the children, nothing about giving them any food.
 
2012-10-30 02:48:37 AM

saintstryfe: I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management.


True dat. Its a different kind of emergency recovery but an important one nonetheless. Had a lover who was MLS and worked on emergency restoration programs after the big Iowa flood a few years ago.
 
2012-10-30 02:49:18 AM

BronyMedic: saintstryfe: It's important, don't down play it. The fact is - if it's wet, it has to be taken care of. It's important... it's our records. It's how we research, learn, grow from the past. I'm trained how to do Emergency Recovery and a big part of it is to get out of the more important people's way. Luckily, Librarians and archivists are very talented people and very forward thinking re: emergency management. Getting my MLS we had whole courses just devoted to it.

I don't doubt that in the least, but you really don't want to get out and start freelancing right now. You actually become an impediment to rescue operations, and a potential victim who needs rescued themselves. It's not just the water, but also what's in it as well. At this point, life safety is going to take major priority over recovery of records.

If you want to help, find out where there's a local shelter or staging area for volunteers open, and if you can make it there safely, do so and volunteer your help.


I wouldn't be free-lancing. I work on-call for a company that provides disaster services for libraries. If your library in my area is in a fire, or floods, or a damn hurricane hits you, we get there and use the proper materials and techniques to preserve as much as possible. Again, only after it is safe.
 
2012-10-30 02:49:37 AM

Suicide of a Phoenix: fire details: (from NY Times)
Three-Alarm Fire in the Rockaways
More than 140 firefighters were battling a three-alarm fire that broke out just after 11 p.m. on Monday in Breezy Point, Queens, a small beach community in the Rockaways that has experienced severe flooding from the storm.

"It's a huge fire - a lot of houses involved," said Firefighter Michael Parrella, a spokesman for the department, adding that the area was "probably the most flooded part of the city so there are all sorts of complications."

The fire, which affected a number of tightly packed homes, was not yet under control early Tuesday morning, he said.


I just saw a clip of it on tv. that wind is really whipping it around.
 
2012-10-30 02:51:23 AM
Queens Breezy Point fire just called a 5th alarm. Huge fire.
 
2012-10-30 02:51:45 AM

Emposter: How do you not check to make sure your emergency generators work before a blizzardcanepocalypse?


This. Also, weekly.

Obligatory youtube vid of a bigass CAT firing up: Link

And some automagic generator synchronization: Link

/You will now be clicking around Youtube watching all these beastly Diesel generator videos now.
//You're welcome.
 
2012-10-30 02:52:17 AM

relcec: how much you want to bet japan managed to move shiat out of the basements and a story up? how much?



Don't be an ass. Japan's back to status quo and has been for some time. Once in a lifetime tsunami is once in a lifetime.

But y'know keep pointing fingers. That's helpful.
 
2012-10-30 02:52:46 AM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Could we as a country as least take away the lesson that major population centers SHOULD get priority emergency management funding over corn-based states? This is coming from a guy who LIVES in a corn-based state. If a bomb went off in rural southern Indiana, the world would be out a bomb.

/Stay safe Northeastern folks


To some degree, it balances out, as you guys need money for tornado clean-up and every dollar spent on preparedness/tracking/avoidance of twisters in the middle of the country is a dollar well-spent.
 
2012-10-30 02:52:55 AM

Dwight_Yeast: Haliburton Cummings: this thread has rapidly become two bald old men, knee high in shiat fighting over a plunger.

Meh. you haven't been here long enough to see a real Fark shiatstorm. The threads during and after Katrina were particularly bad.


oh i remember those...
 
2012-10-30 02:53:11 AM

Yoyo: Bonanza Jellybean: xl5150: That's what you get for not being prepared.

/there are these things called backup generators
//novel concept, I know

The did have backup generators, but the story is that unexpectedly high water levels ruined their deisel(sic.) supply.

I was going to guess that the starter batteries were dead or the oil levels were too low due to lack of preventive maintenance. Who doesn't make a fluid tight fuel tank? Seriously. And so what if the flood water levels are 4 feet higher than record. Why can't they just put the generators on the roof with the HVAC equipment?


We had massive floods where I live a bit over a year ago. While our building had a backup generator on the roof, well maintained, the fuel tank had to be in part of the basement. While it had been water tight, the flood waters lifted it up and ripped it out of its wall brackets - and they weren't wimpy wall brackets either, I can tell you. Suddenly instead of having 3 days of power, we would have 8 hours only. Luckily the mains power came on again just in time, but if it hadn't, we'd have been in a pretty bad situation.

Anyway, the point is that even when well planned for, when you're dealing with extreme conditions, sometimes things fark up. When the shiat hits the fan, you can't tell exactly how it will splatter.
 
2012-10-30 02:53:20 AM

Somacandra: themeaningoflifeisnot: Somacandra: themeaningoflifeisnot: I'm a lot more concerned about the out-of-control Queens fire.

Source? Can't find any information.

FDNY and EMS channel feeds and FDNY twitter and ABC live blog.

Thanks---found it. Friends in Astoria.


I have a brother in Queens, and a friend. So I've been listening quite avidly.
 
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