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(ABC) NewsFlash The worst case scenario has occurred: NYU Medical Center has lost all power and oxygen supplies. Hundreds of people, including newborns and children, are being evacuated   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 832
    More: NewsFlash, NYU Medical Center, New York University, Medical Center, emergency power system, NYU Langone Medical Center, New York Presbyterian Hospital, New York Fire Department, Weill Cornell Medical College  
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12977 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2012 at 1:20 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-10-30 02:18:54 AM  

BronyMedic: DeathByGeekSquad: And yet it's not the worst case scenario...

Absent of a building collapse killing them, yeah it is. It's not as simple as hooking an adult up to a BVM and bagging them until the power comes back on.


Your passion for the topic is blinding you to the matters at hand. Either take a step back and reread, or find someone else to preach to about the needs of children.

/family is involved with CMH in Chicago
//I fully understand the logistics involved with relocating patients, and the severity of the situation
///still not the worst case scenario
 
2012-10-30 02:19:06 AM  

seventypercent: Lachwen: Curse you. This is heartbreaking to listen to. I keep hearing truck after truck reporting that the roads are impassible and they can't reach the calls.

I stopped listening a half hour or so ago when they said that they had a structure fire with people trapped in the attic.


Gahhhh, now that sounds Katrina-ish
 
2012-10-30 02:19:35 AM  

relcec: no budget? you think NYU medical has no money? and even if they didn't, which is ridiculous, that this is an excuse? *it was expensive to save maybe hundreds of lives to mitigate a risk that was statistically guaranteed to eventually happen* is your rejoinder? and why the hell would it have to go on the roof? how about just not below sea level?


Not expensive. Simply not possible or too dangerous.
 
2012-10-30 02:19:44 AM  

relcec: you think NYU medical has no money?


You cant really make a roof stronger than it is in a building like a hospital once it's built. So the roof is right out. Any other locations could involve tens of millions of dollars in construction. And while the hospital has the money for its operations, hospitals don't generally have building funds set aside for major alterations.
 
2012-10-30 02:20:07 AM  

doglover: Generators are heavy. "You want one up there, YOU carry it." was probably said at some point during the planning phase.


Indeed they are heavy, about 6 tons for a 400 kW unit. (I'm guessing here because our scale and helos topped out at 10k capacity.) I used a 21 ton crane the last time I needed to lift big generators. Maybe the hospital people could have used the construction crane that was on site when the place was built or rented a crane when it was time to upgrade the generators.
 
2012-10-30 02:20:46 AM  
New York is the biggest attention whore ever
 
2012-10-30 02:20:56 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: BronyMedic: DeathByGeekSquad: And yet it's not the worst case scenario...

Absent of a building collapse killing them, yeah it is. It's not as simple as hooking an adult up to a BVM and bagging them until the power comes back on.

Your passion for the topic is blinding you to the matters at hand. Either take a step back and reread, or find someone else to preach to about the needs of children.

/family is involved with CMH in Chicago
//I fully understand the logistics involved with relocating patients, and the severity of the situation
///still not the worst case scenario


It is certainly a worst case scenario for that hospital in this situation. Yes Im sure a meteor slamming into it would be worse.
 
2012-10-30 02:21:03 AM  
I wonder how earthquake-proof xl5150's house is. The way he talks, it had better be perfect.

After all, he's had millions of years to prepare.
 
2012-10-30 02:21:15 AM  
Read this thread looking for any updates on the situation. Some of these comments low, even by Fark Politics standards.

Hope they are able to get everyone out and bring them to a safer location. Patients feel vulnurable enough, this must be terrifying for them.
 
2012-10-30 02:21:29 AM  

Seige101: Smeggy Smurf: Typically backup generators fail when the fuel supply is disrupted. Building codes don't allow for the diesel to be stored inside the building without extraordinary measure being taken. Those measures are always cost prohibitive. So the fuel will most likely be in some sort of underground cistern. The likely source of the power failure is the pumps for the generators have been damaged.

There really is no good solution to the problem with current technology. I wish there was but that's not in the foreseeable future.

/architect

How about a propane or natural gas generator?


Neither are stable for long term storage and are highly reactive. You can cause an explosion with either of those fuels with a simple industrial accident. Diesel on the other hand is difficult to ignite in such a manner.

If you're really interested in fuels storage I'd recommend you spend some time researching aviation fuel farms. Most of what I deal with are 500 gallon storage tanks for grocery stores.
 
2012-10-30 02:21:35 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: BronyMedic: DeathByGeekSquad: And yet it's not the worst case scenario...

Absent of a building collapse killing them, yeah it is. It's not as simple as hooking an adult up to a BVM and bagging them until the power comes back on.

Your passion for the topic is blinding you to the matters at hand. Either take a step back and reread, or find someone else to preach to about the needs of children.


Completely agreed. For example, if instead of water the NICU was flooded with AIDS infected diarrhea, that would be at least a few degrees worse. So, bronymedic, you should stop thinking about the children.

And think about the diarrhea, I presume.
 
2012-10-30 02:22:04 AM  

WhyteRaven74: pissedoffmick: this thread?

just to save you trouble, you can extend that to any thread he's posted in.


Noted - thanks. I remember you from a lot of years ago - 2003ish? Anyway, nice to see you are still here too.
 
2012-10-30 02:22:07 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: /family is involved with CMH in Chicago
//I fully understand the logistics involved with relocating patients, and the severity of the situation
///still not the worst case scenario


Exactly. The worst case is all this that happened, and they can't get people out. While it's dangerous, these people are movable and they had the ability to do it safely. They just don't want to do it if they don't have to. But they did have to, so they did.
 
2012-10-30 02:22:21 AM  

rhodabear: Read this thread looking for any updates on the situation. Some of these comments low, even by Fark Politics standards.

Hope they are able to get everyone out and bring them to a safer location. Patients feel vulnurable enough, this must be terrifying for them.


I just keep thinking of those poor kids

welcome to the world and good luck :(
 
2012-10-30 02:22:25 AM  

quickdraw: Seige101: Smeggy Smurf: Typically backup generators fail when the fuel supply is disrupted. Building codes don't allow for the diesel to be stored inside the building without extraordinary measure being taken. Those measures are always cost prohibitive. So the fuel will most likely be in some sort of underground cistern. The likely source of the power failure is the pumps for the generators have been damaged.

There really is no good solution to the problem with current technology. I wish there was but that's not in the foreseeable future.

/architect

How about a propane or natural gas generator?

Propane is a tricky gas - not at all stable. Natural gas is even worse. Diesel is the most stable which is why they use it for emergencies.


And much higher energy density. Longer run-time.
 
2012-10-30 02:22:29 AM  
: Suicide of a Phoenix:
ConEd explosion



And now that I look at it more, what's affecting the camera?
At 0:25 and 3:12 there's a weird warping of the of the image. That can't be a shock wave, can it?
 
2012-10-30 02:22:51 AM  
25.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-10-30 02:23:06 AM  

DeathByGeekSquad: BronyMedic: DeathByGeekSquad: And yet it's not the worst case scenario...

Absent of a building collapse killing them, yeah it is. It's not as simple as hooking an adult up to a BVM and bagging them until the power comes back on.

Your passion for the topic is blinding you to the matters at hand. Either take a step back and reread, or find someone else to preach to about the needs of children.

/family is involved with CMH in Chicago
//I fully understand the logistics involved with relocating patients, and the severity of the situation
///still not the worst case scenario


Yes. I'm sure that the Statue of Liberty awakening and turning out to be a gigantic weeping angel could be worse. Or YHVH appearing in all his glory and smiting the building with the mighty hammer of Thor's cock.

I get that.

What I'm saying is, for those patients, it IS the worst case scenario. These are patients for which it's life-threatening to even move them down the elevator into the X-ray suite. And as for my passion blinding me? Dude, I work with NICU transports. These babies don't take stimulation well - they tend to clamp up, brady down, and die with it.
 
2012-10-30 02:23:32 AM  

WhyteRaven74: relcec: you think NYU medical has no money?

You cant really make a roof stronger than it is in a building like a hospital once it's built. So the roof is right out. Any other locations could involve tens of millions of dollars in construction. And while the hospital has the money for its operations, hospitals don't generally have building funds set aside for major alterations.



He obviously has no understanding of fire codes etc. Most fuel tanks are outside the building due to fire code reasons. If the fuel gets contaminated with water, you are farked. We have a Generator on the 8th floor of out building, in the mechanical penthouse. The fuel is in a bunker outside at the back of the building due to fire code. It's pumped up to the penthouse.
 
2012-10-30 02:23:55 AM  

WhyteRaven74: relcec: you think NYU medical has no money?

You cant really make a roof stronger than it is in a building like a hospital once it's built. So the roof is right out. Any other locations could involve tens of millions of dollars in construction. And while the hospital has the money for its operations, hospitals don't generally have building funds set aside for major alterations.


Well actually. No. It isnt the weight. Its the tendency of diesel tanks to explode that are the issue.

So lets think this through. Would you recommend lifting diesel tanks with a giant crane however many feet in the air so that you could put them on a roof just in advance of a hurricane?
 
2012-10-30 02:24:11 AM  

DON.MAC: Emposter: How do you not check to make sure your emergency generators work before a blizzardcanepocalypse?

A friend deals with data centers in Kansas City. Many of them have generators that get test started using mains power and their battery backup starter was never tested or someone stole the car battery needed to start the things once main power was lost.


Hospitals are required to check emergency generators weekly actually with the results logged. They have to be started and the power transfered from main to generator power using the automatic switchgear. This did play havoc with IS (IT) until we put in a flywheel type of stopgap power supply which tranferred power quickly enough. Testing also tripped elevators offline about 1'4 of the time, which is a pain in the ass. Before testing each week in the middle of the goddamned night we informed the head nurse and asked permission from OR. No tests while surgery was being performed or expected soon for obvious reasons. So NYU probably had working ready generators ready before this happened

But if you get water in the switchgear or generator rooms you are screwed. And they love putting switchgear in basements connected by tunnels or tiny hallways where its quiet and away from real people having to see dirty subhuman maintenance people. Which sucks during floods.
 
2012-10-30 02:24:12 AM  

Omahawg: rhodabear: Read this thread looking for any updates on the situation. Some of these comments low, even by Fark Politics standards.

Hope they are able to get everyone out and bring them to a safer location. Patients feel vulnurable enough, this must be terrifying for them.

I just keep thinking of those poor kids

welcome to the world and good luck :(


It's pretty depressing that some people are actually like that. Kind of makes you lose faith in humanity.
 
2012-10-30 02:24:42 AM  

quickdraw: relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.

Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.



you are saying making sure the few dozen redundant systems (that happen to support vital life and death infrastructure in a community [Manhattan] where the property is worth 1 $trillion in the aggregate, and that is right above sea level and right next to the atlantic ocean) can actually perform offers way to low in the way of marginal utility to be considered a worthwhile the investment?
this isn't spending billions to save your 16 year old dogs life for a few months.
 
2012-10-30 02:24:55 AM  

BronyMedic: they tend to clamp up, brady down, and die with it.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2012-10-30 02:25:44 AM  

BronyMedic: You've never had a generator get contaminated with water, have you?


No, I haven't. As many stupid things that the military does, we're smart enough to buy generators that are water resistant. They even work outdoors in the rain and mud. And for the critical ones, we take the belt-and-suspenders route and put them on blocks and under roofs. (We also put our hospitals on high ground.)
 
2012-10-30 02:25:49 AM  

relcec: quickdraw: relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.

Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.


you are saying making sure the few dozen redundant systems (that happen to support vital life and death infrastructure in a community [Manhattan] where the property is worth 1 $trillion in the aggregate, and that is right above sea level and right next to the atlantic ocean) can actually perform offers way to low in the way of marginal utility to be considered a worthwhile the investment?
this isn't spending billions to save your 16 year old dogs life for a few months.


Making assumptions on who to blame without knowing any of the facts behind it is awesome, isn't it?

abagond.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-10-30 02:26:09 AM  

sprawl15: Completely agreed. For example, if instead of water the NICU was flooded with AIDS infected diarrhea, that would be at least a few degrees worse


"AIDS-Infected Diarrhea" was the name of my Marilyn Manson tribute band in college. Our opening act was "Basket Full of Puppies", which was an Anthrax tribute band.
 
2012-10-30 02:26:13 AM  

saintstryfe: BronyMedic: they tend to clamp up, brady down, and die with it.

[24.media.tumblr.com image 641x700]

/thread
 
2012-10-30 02:26:21 AM  
Anyway, what is the status of the transferred patients? Have all been transferred successfully?
 
2012-10-30 02:26:45 AM  

quickdraw: relcec: no budget? you think NYU medical has no money? and even if they didn't, which is ridiculous, that this is an excuse? *it was expensive to save maybe hundreds of lives to mitigate a risk that was statistically guaranteed to eventually happen* is your rejoinder? and why the hell would it have to go on the roof? how about just not below sea level?

Not expensive. Simply not possible or too dangerous.


again with the impossible.
 
2012-10-30 02:27:01 AM  

MisterTweak: pxlboy: Evacuated to where, exactly?

Mt. Sinai, Columbia, HSS, Doctors, St. Vincents....


I think Saint Vinny's closed last year-mom went to nursing school there in 1960 and the alumns had a memorial dinner
 
2012-10-30 02:27:06 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: : Suicide of a Phoenix:
ConEd explosion



And now that I look at it more, what's affecting the camera?
At 0:25 and 3:12 there's a weird warping of the of the image. That can't be a shock wave, can it?


Its autofocus is being farked with by the flare, is all.
 
2012-10-30 02:27:07 AM  

Yoyo: No, I haven't. As many stupid things that the military does, we're smart enough to buy generators that are water resistant. They even work outdoors in the rain and mud. And for the critical ones, we take the belt-and-suspenders route and put them on blocks and under roofs. (We also put our hospitals on high ground.)


You also don't have things like city ordinances, building codes, OSHA requirements, and federal/state laws to deal with, do you?

And it doesn't matter how "water resistant" that generator is. Get water in the fuel supply and in the crank case. Last I checked, they didn't work underwater either.
 
2012-10-30 02:27:12 AM  

change1211: Omahawg: rhodabear: Read this thread looking for any updates on the situation. Some of these comments low, even by Fark Politics standards.

Hope they are able to get everyone out and bring them to a safer location. Patients feel vulnurable enough, this must be terrifying for them.

I just keep thinking of those poor kids

welcome to the world and good luck :(

It's pretty depressing that some people are actually like that. Kind of makes you lose faith in humanity.


You should have been here for the threads on the Central Texas fires.
 
2012-10-30 02:27:34 AM  
To lighten the mood slightly, current Onion headlines:

Hurricane Gives Holed-Up Couple Great Chance To Have All Those Fights They've Been Avoiding

Misinformed Man Riding Out Storm In Bathtub Filled With Batteries

20 Idiots Evacuated From Times Square M&M's Store

And of course:
Ways To Wait Out Hurricane Sandy

With Hurricane Sandy shuttering schools, businesses, and transit services up and down the East Coast, tens of millions of Americans have been left to wait out the storm indoors. Here are some ways you and your family can occupy your time until the weather passes:

Refer to FEMA's Official Indoor Fun Guide for emergency game ideas
Sit on your legs until they both fall asleep, and then try to get up and walk to another room; repeat this 400 times
See how much loud clapping you can accomplish before man in next emergency cot gets angry
Remember favorite memories
Start planning your hurricane story now so you'll be able to one-up your friends' stories
Tweet something cute or clever about storm. In event of power or Internet loss, just shout 140-character comments out window
In moment of storm-induced panic, kiss roommate; never discuss
Take a shiat right in the middle of Times Square; it's your only chance
 
2012-10-30 02:28:31 AM  

relcec: quickdraw: relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.

Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.


you are saying making sure the few dozen redundant systems (that happen to support vital life and death infrastructure in a community [Manhattan] where the property is worth 1 $trillion in the aggregate, and that is right above sea level and right next to the atlantic ocean) can actually perform offers way to low in the way of marginal utility to be considered a worthwhile the investment?
this isn't spending billions to save your 16 year old dogs life for a few months.


No I am saying that there are some problems (many really) that all the money in the world can't fix. Problems that are nuanced and complex with very high stakes are often not solved by throwing money at them.
 
2012-10-30 02:28:42 AM  
holy fark this thread is like 50% arguments over semantics!
What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Hope the evac goes well. :/
 
2012-10-30 02:28:51 AM  

China White Tea:
Its autofocus is being farked with by the flare, is all.


Oh alright. That would have been cool. I guess real cities have fancy cameras like that.
Thanks.
 
2012-10-30 02:28:56 AM  

BronyMedic: relcec: quickdraw: relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.

Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.


you are saying making sure the few dozen redundant systems (that happen to support vital life and death infrastructure in a community [Manhattan] where the property is worth 1 $trillion in the aggregate, and that is right above sea level and right next to the atlantic ocean) can actually perform offers way to low in the way of marginal utility to be considered a worthwhile the investment?
this isn't spending billions to save your 16 year old dogs life for a few months.

Making assumptions on who to blame without knowing any of the facts behind it is awesome, isn't it?


the people to blame are the folks that were put in charge of disaster preparedness of that hospital after 9/11 or the higher ups who refused to take their recommendations on making the power supply safer if they were made aware of the danger. that's not an assumption, that's common sense.
 
2012-10-30 02:29:08 AM  

pissedoffmick: I remember you from a lot of years ago - 2003ish?


actually a couple years after that :)

quickdraw: Well actually. No. It isnt the weight. Its the tendency of diesel tanks to explode that are the issue.


Well that too, but the roof wasn't designed to have two six ton generators on it so even omitting the fuel issue, as a structural matter the roof is out.

canwolfshadow: He obviously has no understanding of fire codes etc

FTFY ;)

 
2012-10-30 02:29:23 AM  

wickedragon: holy fark this thread is like 50% arguments over semantics!
What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Hope the evac goes well. :/


i1097.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-30 02:29:30 AM  

wickedragon: holy fark this thread is like 50% arguments over semantics!
What the hell is wrong with you people?!

Hope the evac goes well. :/


No it's not! It's an argument over idiomatic language!
 
2012-10-30 02:29:30 AM  

themeaningoflifeisnot: Anyway, what is the status of the transferred patients? Have all been transferred successfully?


NYU website is down and wont load for me.

As of two hours ago, they had gotten 215 of the almost 800 patients out. So Assuming that it's a hundred an hour, I'd say they're 50% there.
 
2012-10-30 02:30:14 AM  

themeaningoflifeisnot: I'm a lot more concerned about the out-of-control Queens fire.


Source? Can't find any information.
 
2012-10-30 02:30:17 AM  

parahaps: saintstryfe: BronyMedic: they tend to clamp up, brady down, and die with it.

[24.media.tumblr.com image 641x700]
/thread


I've been a farker for just shy of 10 years and never got a /thread before in all my time. I'm humbled.

Magorn: I think Saint Vinny's closed last year-mom went to nursing school there in 1960 and the alumns had a memorial dinner


Yep - I went to Pratt Manhattan and that was our hospital. A lot of us LIS students went to help get records/archives/artifacts ready to be moved.

themeaningoflifeisnot: Anyway, what is the status of the transferred patients? Have all been transferred successfully?


Some are still being moved - it should be done by 5 AM according to what I've heard.
 
2012-10-30 02:30:18 AM  

Yoyo: BronyMedic: You've never had a generator get contaminated with water, have you?

No, I haven't. As many stupid things that the military does, we're smart enough to buy generators that are water resistant. They even work outdoors in the rain and mud. And for the critical ones, we take the belt-and-suspenders route and put them on blocks and under roofs. (We also put our hospitals on high ground.)


I'll make sure your comments are taken under advisement when the Army Corp redesign and rebuild Manhattan.

/yes, I'm laughing at you
 
2012-10-30 02:30:46 AM  

relcec: quickdraw: relcec: no budget? you think NYU medical has no money? and even if they didn't, which is ridiculous, that this is an excuse? *it was expensive to save maybe hundreds of lives to mitigate a risk that was statistically guaranteed to eventually happen* is your rejoinder? and why the hell would it have to go on the roof? how about just not below sea level?

Not expensive. Simply not possible or too dangerous.

again with the impossible.


Now you are getting it. The world is a complicated dangerous place and we can't always make things the way we would like them to be. Accepting this is part of being a mature adult.
 
2012-10-30 02:31:31 AM  

Somacandra: themeaningoflifeisnot: I'm a lot more concerned about the out-of-control Queens fire.

Source? Can't find any information.


FDNY and EMS channel feeds and FDNY twitter and ABC live blog.
 
2012-10-30 02:31:44 AM  

relcec: he people to blame are the folks that were put in charge of disaster preparedness of that hospital after 9/11 or the higher ups who refused to take their recommendations on making the power supply safer if they were made aware of the danger. that's not an assumption, that's common sense.


Of course that's what they did. Would you like to cite the report which states that?

Oh, what's that? You don't have that report? You're just pulling it out of your ass? Kinda like the assumption that any contingency can be planned for and mitigated against?

playthisthing.com

Also known as Murphy's Law.
 
2012-10-30 02:32:21 AM  

saintstryfe: lecavalier: xl5150: BronyMedic: Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.

Boo-hoo. It's hard to feel bad for them when simple planning ahead on their part would have avoided such a situation.

I've been really, really critical of the way we have acted in Westchester County because there isn't dick going on up here beyond some minor inconveniences, but in the city? LOL, that is a whole other thing and you are an idiot to think otherwise.

Agreed. I'm in Ulster, about 30 minutes north of Westchester by the Thruway, and we haven't had anything but a bad rainstorm. Our last bad rainstorm in September three big limbs came down - no such problems this time (that I can see with a flashlight). The storms path basically hooked directly around us.

All I know is everyone here is on call to our various professions - I'm a Librarian, and going down to offer assistance to any RM or archival store that is in serious disaster mode, and my older brother is a Master Electrician, he's going to be down there sorting wire very soon.


Noble cause and all, but you should stay where you are. The last thing they need is non-critical personnel clogging up the roads/trains while they deal with actual emergencies.
 
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