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(ABC) NewsFlash The worst case scenario has occurred: NYU Medical Center has lost all power and oxygen supplies. Hundreds of people, including newborns and children, are being evacuated   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 832
    More: NewsFlash, NYU Medical Center, New York University, Medical Center, emergency power system, NYU Langone Medical Center, New York Presbyterian Hospital, New York Fire Department, Weill Cornell Medical College  
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12973 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Oct 2012 at 1:20 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-10-30 02:05:45 AM

saintstryfe: It is if they're underwater!


They arent.
 
2012-10-30 02:05:52 AM
This is what happens when you ask someone to install a backup generator instead of asking someone to plan for the appropriate way to deal with likely scenarios that would cause an extended power outage.

The hospital just said "backup generator and fuel? Got 'em!" and thought they were done. What they should have done is asked themselves what scenarios are most likely to cause major power outages, and pretty high up the list would be tropical storm flooding. At that point they might have realized that having the diesel tank below ground level in the area that would be flooded MIGHT not be the best idea.

Also, unless you regularly test generators at full load (actually turn them on and run the building on them) then you might as well not have one at all because it will probably break.
 
2012-10-30 02:05:59 AM

WhyteRaven74: themeaningoflifeisnot: . A major conflagration has broken out in Breezy Point. 15 fully involved buildings, and FDNY is having trouble getting battalions on scene and finding working pumps.

A major fire in a flood. Has anyone contacted Alanis Morrisette?


Interestingly, one of the worst disasters that can threaten a submarine? Fire.

/actually, fire on any ship is a major disaster
 
2012-10-30 02:06:03 AM

Chupacabra Sandwich: Has anyone heard a timetable for when this storm is going to be... over?


I think it's Tuesday afternoon.
 
2012-10-30 02:06:14 AM

WhyteRaven74: xl5150: making sure your backup generators work is on par with rocket science.

Apparently they were working just fine, however the sea water managed to get in the fuel supply. Could be due to an issue that was completely outside of the hospital's control.


You mean . . . . an act of god?
 
2012-10-30 02:06:25 AM

Meatybrain: They call the storm Sandy
[www.markfarmersworld.com image 279x341]
Cause it's only got one eye.


And it ends with Duncan....
 
2012-10-30 02:06:52 AM

Genevieve Marie: xl5150: GhostFish: Give your input on exactly what more could have been done or shut the fark up.

As I've already written numerous times, they could have performed the rocket science of making sure the backup generators worked at the hospital. But oh no! They only had a few days notice!

Generators of that size and that capacity are incredibly difficult to move, and this is more flooding than they've ever seen in that area. Not all emergencies can be prepared for with only a few days notice.

What you're essentially saying is why couldn't they just totally redesign major hospital systems in a few days to avoid repercussions from a natural disaster. THat's not realistic, and you probably know it.


It wasnt the generators - its the fuel.
 
2012-10-30 02:07:04 AM

Yoyo: Bonanza Jellybean: xl5150: That's what you get for not being prepared.

/there are these things called backup generators
//novel concept, I know

The did have backup generators, but the story is that unexpectedly high water levels ruined their deisel(sic.) supply.

I was going to guess that the starter batteries were dead or the oil levels were too low due to lack of preventive maintenance. Who doesn't make a fluid tight fuel tank? Seriously. And so what if the flood water levels are 4 feet higher than record. Why can't they just put the generators on the roof with the HVAC equipment?


Good question. That's actually a common practice, but generally with natgas-fired generators. Big cities with dense populations don't like large quantities of flammable, toxic, hazardous fuels being stored where fire crews can't get to them.

(and iirc, the affected building is a collection of various additions and renovations, and exactly as crowded as you'd expect a high-quality hospital in the center of the nation's largest population center to be - and - i gotta say it - "they're doctors, not engineers, dammit!" ;-)
 
2012-10-30 02:07:13 AM
Back from work. Checked the news. Shiat looks bad for NJ and NYC.
 
2012-10-30 02:07:45 AM

cefm: This is what happens when you ask someone to install a backup generator instead of asking someone to plan for the appropriate way to deal with likely scenarios that would cause an extended power outage.

The hospital just said "backup generator and fuel? Got 'em!" and thought they were done. What they should have done is asked themselves what scenarios are most likely to cause major power outages, and pretty high up the list would be tropical storm flooding. At that point they might have realized that having the diesel tank below ground level in the area that would be flooded MIGHT not be the best idea.

Also, unless you regularly test generators at full load (actually turn them on and run the building on them) then you might as well not have one at all because it will probably break.


IT WASNT THE GENERATORS. IT WAS THE FUEL.
 
2012-10-30 02:08:15 AM

Chupacabra Sandwich: Has anyone heard a timetable for when this storm is going to be... over?


Late Friday according to NOAA's current model. Link
 
2012-10-30 02:08:22 AM

eraser8: Interestingly, one of the worst disasters that can threaten a submarine? Fire.

/actually, fire on any ship is a major disaster


I'm a lot more concerned about the out-of-control Queens fire. What I've seen of the hospital transfers indicates it's all under control, while this huge fire involves residential structures and some reports have FDNY using boats to get people out of burning buildings. We'll see what turns out to be true, but if that's the case, holy shiat!
 
2012-10-30 02:08:30 AM

HotWingAgenda: WhyteRaven74: xl5150: making sure your backup generators work is on par with rocket science.

Apparently they were working just fine, however the sea water managed to get in the fuel supply. Could be due to an issue that was completely outside of the hospital's control.

You mean . . . . an act of god?


Force Majeure.
 
2012-10-30 02:08:47 AM

relcec: thought it was obvious that life and death infrastructure near major large bodies of water and near said body of water's waterline needed to rethink leaving the backup generators in the basement after the japanese tsunami. they've had 20 months. if people die to this neglect, there should be serious repercussions.


I guess you're bald BECAUSE THERE'S NO MORE "due"!


HA HA H- okay I'm done.
 
2012-10-30 02:09:07 AM

quickdraw: It wasnt the generators - its the fuel.



Heard. Rest of it still applies  though. Along with an added admonishment that in times of major chaos, immediately rushing to blame is generally very unhelpful and unproductive.

 
 
2012-10-30 02:09:15 AM

relcec: thought it was obvious that life and death infrastructure near major large bodies of water and near said body of water's waterline needed to rethink leaving the backup generators in the basement after the japanese tsunami. they've had 20 months. if people die to this neglect, there should be serious repercussions.


LOL, yeah you go ahead an re-engineer the roof of the building to accept a couple of multi-ton generators with thousands of gallons of flammable fuel in a terrorist target with zero budget (hospitals are not where medical profits go). Oh and do it in 20 months....
 
2012-10-30 02:09:40 AM
encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com
 
2012-10-30 02:09:44 AM

relcec: thought it was obvious that life and death infrastructure near major large bodies of water and near said body of water's waterline needed to rethink leaving the backup generators in the basement after the japanese tsunami


Well said.
These words will echo throughout the ages.
 
2012-10-30 02:09:47 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: Damn. This is exactly like what happened to Big Charity in New Orleans during Katrina.

doctors and nurses trying to keep people alive for a solid week with no power in 90+F heat because no one thought to put the diesel tanks somewhere that flood water couldn't get to them.


where would you put them?
 
2012-10-30 02:09:55 AM

cefm: What they should have done is asked themselves what scenarios are most likely to cause major power outages


I'm sure they did that. The people who design hospitals take into account all sorts of scenarios. And actually flooding from a major storm wouldn't be too high on the list, though it would be on the list.
 
2012-10-30 02:10:07 AM

Genevieve Marie: quickdraw: It wasnt the generators - its the fuel.


Heard. Rest of it still applies  though. Along with an added admonishment that in times of major chaos, immediately rushing to blame is generally very unhelpful and unproductive.


Yet, rushing to blame is generally what happens.
 
2012-10-30 02:10:15 AM

Somacandra: BronyMedic: Considering NYU is a level IV surgical NICU, and those babies are completely dependant on specialized, very large machines to keep them both warm and alive, yeah. It's a big freakin' deal. The cold alone can kill a medically fragile baby very quickly.

Couldn't have said it better. These are the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable in place that was especially designed for them. This is in fact a really really big deal.


I had one of those kids (he is 10 now), and this would scare the fark out of me.
 
2012-10-30 02:10:50 AM

The more you eat the more you fart: Damn. This is exactly like what happened to Big Charity in New Orleans during Katrina.

doctors and nurses trying to keep people alive for a solid week with no power in 90+F heat because no one thought to put the diesel tanks somewhere that flood water couldn't get to them.


Where do you propose keeping them?
 
2012-10-30 02:11:21 AM

BronyMedic: LIVE FEED OF FDNY FIRE COMMUNICATIONS FROM QUEENS, INCLUDING EVACUATION

Click here to listen.

Bad, bad shiat is going down in New York, folks.


Curse you. This is heartbreaking to listen to. I keep hearing truck after truck reporting that the roads are impassible and they can't reach the calls.

Glad my boyfriend's in Brooklyn, they don't seem to be getting hit nearly as hard.
 
2012-10-30 02:11:41 AM

Hagenhatesyouall: [encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com image 236x214]


Is that breath hot or cold?

I mean, I'd assume it'd be hot...but, when Superman uses his supercold breath, it comes out that color.
 
2012-10-30 02:11:51 AM

BronyMedic: The more you eat the more you fart: Damn. This is exactly like what happened to Big Charity in New Orleans during Katrina.

doctors and nurses trying to keep people alive for a solid week with no power in 90+F heat because no one thought to put the diesel tanks somewhere that flood water couldn't get to them.

Where do you propose keeping them?


Zeppelins.
 
2012-10-30 02:11:52 AM
fire details: (from NY Times)
Three-Alarm Fire in the Rockaways
More than 140 firefighters were battling a three-alarm fire that broke out just after 11 p.m. on Monday in Breezy Point, Queens, a small beach community in the Rockaways that has experienced severe flooding from the storm.

"It's a huge fire - a lot of houses involved," said Firefighter Michael Parrella, a spokesman for the department, adding that the area was "probably the most flooded part of the city so there are all sorts of complications."

The fire, which affected a number of tightly packed homes, was not yet under control early Tuesday morning, he said.
 
2012-10-30 02:12:07 AM

Lachwen: Curse you. This is heartbreaking to listen to. I keep hearing truck after truck reporting that the roads are impassible and they can't reach the calls.

Glad my boyfriend's in Brooklyn, they don't seem to be getting hit nearly as hard.


Damn!

He's in my thoughts. I hope he's okay, Lachwen!
 
2012-10-30 02:12:16 AM

keytronic: Those pics of the ambulances is impressive. You have to give New York credit, they have the resources to deal with shiat.


Apparently not any spare generators or fuel cans.
 
2012-10-30 02:12:22 AM

quickdraw: cefm: This is what happens when you ask someone to install a backup generator instead of asking someone to plan for the appropriate way to deal with likely scenarios that would cause an extended power outage.

The hospital just said "backup generator and fuel? Got 'em!" and thought they were done. What they should have done is asked themselves what scenarios are most likely to cause major power outages, and pretty high up the list would be tropical storm flooding. At that point they might have realized that having the diesel tank below ground level in the area that would be flooded MIGHT not be the best idea.

Also, unless you regularly test generators at full load (actually turn them on and run the building on them) then you might as well not have one at all because it will probably break.

IT WASNT THE GENERATORS. IT WAS THE FUEL.


My first job was for Caterpillar in a LFG fueled power power plant. We used spark ignited engines setup like diesel fuel delivery (turbos etc). You're correct, they have no issue dealing with most stuff but a tainted fuel supply (stored outside courtesy of fire regulation) is game over.

/hope all are safe
//specially the kids/infants
 
2012-10-30 02:12:33 AM

robodog: relcec: thought it was obvious that life and death infrastructure near major large bodies of water and near said body of water's waterline needed to rethink leaving the backup generators in the basement after the japanese tsunami. they've had 20 months. if people die to this neglect, there should be serious repercussions.

LOL, yeah you go ahead an re-engineer the roof of the building to accept a couple of multi-ton generators with thousands of gallons of flammable fuel in a terrorist target with zero budget (hospitals are not where medical profits go). Oh and do it in 20 months....


It's not just that.
How do you take the wing you are working on out of commission when you have to keep the beds full.

There's a lot of factors to be considered when you are dealing with a Hospital. They all cost money, and that's the one thing you don't have much of for renovations.
 
2012-10-30 02:12:43 AM
Having to abandon the hospital, I have to say is up there with other worst case scenarios, much like abandoning ship.

Unfortunately some critical patients will really be affected, some must be in no condition to drive around the city.

Lets hope for a miracle and hope for the best.
 
2012-10-30 02:12:52 AM

Virtual Pariah: davidphogan: I love my local news. "There are more people without power than LIVE IN THE ENTIRE STATE OF OREGON!"

I thought we measured things the Rhode Islands as a national standard?

Only in terms of distance.
Population counts tend to be compared to flyover country.


I'm just always annoyed by how everything has to be Portland-centric on our local news. This is awesome, now they've left a live mic on the anchor.
 
2012-10-30 02:13:00 AM

Genevieve Marie: quickdraw: It wasnt the generators - its the fuel.


Heard. Rest of it still applies  though. Along with an added admonishment that in times of major chaos, immediately rushing to blame is generally very unhelpful and unproductive.


Oh absolutely. Too me its a sign of immaturity and naivete'. Some people would rather blame others than see the world how it is. Full of unpreventable tragedies.
 
2012-10-30 02:13:30 AM

Yoyo: Apparently not any spare generators or fuel cans.


You've never had a generator get contaminated with water, have you?

parahaps: Zeppelins.


AH HA! But what do you do when the Red Baron attacks?
 
2012-10-30 02:13:32 AM
Holy crap!
ConEd explosion

Link
 
2012-10-30 02:13:40 AM
Hah... "What's going on, who am I waiting for?" "Oh, really? We're doing that?" "Sure, okay, oh, hey turn that off."
 
2012-10-30 02:13:52 AM

Infobahn: I had one of those kids (he is 10 now), and this would scare the fark out of me.


Well this will chill you to the bone: CNN was just talking about it: due to communication problems, NYU staff can't even call parents on an official line and tell them where the child is going or that they are being moved. They have to evacuated them and the receiving hospital has to call them.

Overall it sounds like NYU had a perfectly acceptable Emergency Management plan in place, but this just overwhelmed it on every front.
 
2012-10-30 02:13:54 AM

Yoyo: Bonanza Jellybean: xl5150: That's what you get for not being prepared.

/there are these things called backup generators
//novel concept, I know

The did have backup generators, but the story is that unexpectedly high water levels ruined their deisel(sic.) supply.

I was going to guess that the starter batteries were dead or the oil levels were too low due to lack of preventive maintenance. Who doesn't make a fluid tight fuel tank? Seriously. And so what if the flood water levels are 4 feet higher than record. Why can't they just put the generators on the roof with the HVAC equipment?


You're farking kidding, right?

Not a single fuel tank you're likely to find is 100% fluid-tight. They're top-vented by design. They are designed to flow liquid from the tank to the engine - this requires management of the vacuum, to ensure that it doesn't become too strong, which reduces flow. Water gets in through the breather. Bam. Mayonnaise. Fouled system.

You can't fully seal a fuel delivery system. If you do, the engine will choke out within seconds.
 
2012-10-30 02:14:44 AM
Southern coast of Long Island has been hit pretty hard too, from what I'm hearing. My grandparents in Lindenhurst unfortunately live right between a canal and a marina, and their neighborhood is swamped.
 
2012-10-30 02:15:06 AM

relcec: and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements


The issue may not be the fuel tanks, could be something else. Hell it could be that whatever caused the water to get in the fuel may be do to an issue not even on the hospital grounds.
 
2012-10-30 02:15:58 AM
I think the idea of calling this a worst case scenario is to fail but not lose; if you start including the apocalypse and zombie death as worst case scenario - you are likely to go insane. Every day I think the worse case scenario is I might, might get rear-ended - because if I thought of all the ways I could die just walking out the door, I'll curl up in a ball and rock myself to death.
 
2012-10-30 02:16:02 AM

Somacandra: BronyMedic: Considering NYU is a level IV surgical NICU, and those babies are completely dependant on specialized, very large machines to keep them both warm and alive, yeah. It's a big freakin' deal. The cold alone can kill a medically fragile baby very quickly.

Couldn't have said it better. These are the most vulnerable of the most vulnerable in place that was especially designed for them. This is in fact a really really big deal.


I think you guys are conflating "a really serious and dangerous scenario" with "worst case scenario".

Given this weather system there are perfectly plausible situations far worse than this. It would be distasteful at this time to speculate what they would be specifically but they are obviously there.
 
2012-10-30 02:16:56 AM

relcec: that settles it. it's impossible to move fuel to safer confines. impossible. and totally unforeseeable that water is effected by gravity and thus loves basements. this event was absolutely impossible to prepare for.


Yes sadly. This is the case. It is not possible to make everyone safe in all situations. Sometimes people have to make difficult choices and sometimes there are simply no choices to be made.
 
2012-10-30 02:17:12 AM

pissedoffmick: this thread?


just to save you trouble, you can extend that to any thread he's posted in.
 
2012-10-30 02:17:16 AM
FDNY Swiftwater Rescue Team

www.jems.com
 
2012-10-30 02:17:20 AM

robodog: relcec: thought it was obvious that life and death infrastructure near major large bodies of water and near said body of water's waterline needed to rethink leaving the backup generators in the basement after the japanese tsunami. they've had 20 months. if people die to this neglect, there should be serious repercussions.

LOL, yeah you go ahead an re-engineer the roof of the building to accept a couple of multi-ton generators with thousands of gallons of flammable fuel in a terrorist target with zero budget (hospitals are not where medical profits go). Oh and do it in 20 months....


no budget? you think NYU medical has no money? and even if they didn't, which is ridiculous, that this is an excuse? *it was expensive to save maybe hundreds of lives to mitigate a risk that was statistically guaranteed to eventually happen* is your rejoinder? and why the hell would it have to go on the roof? how about just not below sea level?
 
2012-10-30 02:17:21 AM

Lachwen: Curse you. This is heartbreaking to listen to. I keep hearing truck after truck reporting that the roads are impassible and they can't reach the calls.


I stopped listening a half hour or so ago when they said that they had a structure fire with people trapped in the attic.
 
2012-10-30 02:18:08 AM

Suicide of a Phoenix: Holy crap!
ConEd explosion

Link


Damn, it's like a dimensional portal is being opened or something. That must have been extremely frightening to see in person.
 
2012-10-30 02:18:33 AM

Suicide of a Phoenix: fire details: (from NY Times)
Three-Alarm Fire in the Rockaways
More than 140 firefighters were battling a three-alarm fire that broke out just after 11 p.m. on Monday in Breezy Point, Queens, a small beach community in the Rockaways that has experienced severe flooding from the storm.

"It's a huge fire - a lot of houses involved," said Firefighter Michael Parrella, a spokesman for the department, adding that the area was "probably the most flooded part of the city so there are all sorts of complications."

The fire, which affected a number of tightly packed homes, was not yet under control early Tuesday morning, he said.


They upgraded it to a 4 alarm and they're trying to get military vehicles to transport firefighters to the fire because FDNY vehicles can't get through the flooding.
 
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