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(Some Socialist)   The left have convinced themselves of fiction that Obama is the only chance they have for real social change. Of course, BSABSVR, so vote Obama anyways   (socialistworker.org) divider line 207
    More: Obvious, obama, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, SDS, Wall Street protests, fictions, Lyndon B. Johnson, historiographies  
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1096 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Oct 2012 at 8:14 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-29 09:48:00 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Because you think your vote will magically create a multiple party, parlimentarian system in the US?

Because you think Ralph Nader did this country a great service by electing Bush-Cheney?

Because you think compromise is as un-American?

Because you think both parties want war in Iran so you won't vote for either one?


Okay, four to one.

/The worst crimes ever levied against humanity were more due to society's inaction than man's action.
 
2012-10-29 09:49:34 AM  

cman: There is a big problem with constitutional reformation.


If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.

cman: Many of us want the people to choose what we in the third party have to offer. If the people dont want it, they shouldnt be forced to accept it. We will do our damnedest to ensure that our message gets out there, but giving ourselves a little of a leg up is simply undemocratic.


Without a shift to proportional representation (I don't even think IRV is enough), third parties are simply a joke. Period. I mean, I make fun of RONPAUL all day, but fundamentally if 10% of the populace wants to be in a RONPAUL party, then 10% of our representatives should be RONPAUL-oriented. I'd continue to make fun of them, but that's how it needs to work. And I'm just some asshole on the internet; I'm not running for president.
 
2012-10-29 09:50:25 AM  

ghare: Your picture is on the BSABSVR poster.


lolwut
 
2012-10-29 09:51:06 AM  

sprawl15: If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.


There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.
 
2012-10-29 09:52:14 AM  
Appropriate in so many threads today:

www.bitlogic.com
 
2012-10-29 09:53:36 AM  

cman: sprawl15: If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.

There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.


We already have the 14th Amendment, we don't need another one to reaffirm it.
 
2012-10-29 09:54:02 AM  

ghare: Your picture is on the BSABSVR poster.


I'm pretty sure that Sprawl would cut his own head off before he'd vote for Romney.

ghare: He believes he's been chosen by God to lead America and start a dynasty that will last a thousand years. Really. No shiat.


All snark aside, I generally leave the Space Jesus thing alone (as insane and amusing as it is) because he doesn't really behave like he even believes in that. He might, sure, but judging by his actions, his only God is the Almighty Dollar.
 
2012-10-29 09:54:48 AM  

cman: There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.


I really don't think it's necessary. At all.

Instead of adding on amendments specifically recognizing the rights of whatever new minority group begins to take footing, there should be a straightforward shift of interpretation of the idea of equal protection to actually mean equal protection. The idea of amendments to let people have rights is silly and contrary to the intent of the Constitution - it's essentially arguing that the Constitution grants rights, rather than forcing the government to respect these inherent rights.

Basically, gay people have always had the right to marry, the government has just been unconstitutionally restricting it.
 
2012-10-29 09:57:33 AM  
The last October Surprise will be Romney coming out in Blackface and telling everyone: Both sides are Black, so vote republican!
 
2012-10-29 09:57:40 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: Philip Francis Queeg: Romney will sign whatever regressive, hateful legislation the Eric Cantor sends his way. If you think he will stand for a second for "moderation" against the radicals in his party you are delusional.

This. Romney's personal beliefs don't matter because he doesn't farking have any.


He has one belief. He believes he deserves to be President.
 
2012-10-29 09:57:58 AM  

PonceAlyosha: cman: sprawl15: If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.

There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.

We already have the 14th Amendment, we don't need another one to reaffirm it.


Be that as it may, I want it in stone so no one can do some funny business to deny any sort of equal rights by playing on semantics. A constitutional amendment would ensure that the courts will rule the right way

sprawl15: cman: There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.

I really don't think it's necessary. At all.

Instead of adding on amendments specifically recognizing the rights of whatever new minority group begins to take footing, there should be a straightforward shift of interpretation of the idea of equal protection to actually mean equal protection. The idea of amendments to let people have rights is silly and contrary to the intent of the Constitution - it's essentially arguing that the Constitution grants rights, rather than forcing the government to respect these inherent rights.

Basically, gay people have always had the right to marry, the government has just been unconstitutionally restricting it.


Likewise see above
 
2012-10-29 09:58:50 AM  

cman: There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.


... Then shouldn't you be voting for Obama, not Johnson?
 
2012-10-29 09:58:58 AM  

cman: Likewise see above


It's a pointless exercise and requires much more waiting, time, effort and most importantly UNCERTAINTY than simply letting the judicial process go through its motions.
 
2012-10-29 10:00:24 AM  

PonceAlyosha: Philip Francis Queeg: The election of Romney will bring real social change.

The destruction of the social safety net, the further empowerment of the wealthy and corporations and the destruction of the middle class is significant social change.

And the criminalization of homosexuality.


I've been pissed at these unsegregated schools for a long time too, I want my America back.
 
2012-10-29 10:01:26 AM  

HST's Dead Carcass: The last October Surprise will be Romney coming out in Blackface and telling everyone: Both sides are Black, so vote republican!


Didn't he put on fake tan cream when he gave a speech for a Hispanic American group a couple of weeks ago? If so, it seems he's already tried that.
 
2012-10-29 10:01:57 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: cman: There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.

... Then shouldn't you be voting for Obama, not Johnson?


Johnson wants to make it a federal civil rights case. Obama is perfectly content with letting the states decide if they want it or not.

Johnson has the leg up on this one for me.
 
2012-10-29 10:02:39 AM  

sprawl15: ghare: Your picture is on the BSABSVR poster.

lolwut


I just go by the rule that anyone who says "BSABSVR" is automatically a dumbass and should be given mittens so they don't cut themselves with the safety scissors.
 
2012-10-29 10:02:48 AM  

PonceAlyosha: cman: sprawl15: If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.

There is only one thing that matters to me this election, and it is how I am basing my vote on. I want a constitutional amendment recognizing the right for homosexuals to wed.

We already have the 14th Amendment, we don't need another one to reaffirm it.


Kind of do.
It has all the force of a half starved kitten. It can be overidden by the state's desire to create a diverse lesrning enviorment on the fiction that it helps foster learning in a 1L torts course. It doesn't apply to latinos within 500 miles of the border, or gay people anywhere. You couldn't tell it existed at all if you just looked at federal and state policy.
 
2012-10-29 10:04:36 AM  
The left have convinced themselves that Obama is the only chance they have for real social change because Obama is the only chance they have for real social change.

Obama, himself, is not a leftie. Not by a longshot. However, he is left of the Republicans. The Republicans are cocoa-puffs cuckoo far right. And with every Republican victory, the Overton window shifts a little more, making cocoa-puffs cuckoo far right just a little more acceptable and being a leftie just a little less. fark, take a look around. Watch some political ads. Candidates will fight about which one's more conservative, while "liberal" is a farking swear word.

Is Obama going to change that reality? No, probably not. But he can shift the window a little to the left. The guy, though he isn't a liberal, has been tarred and feathered as one since he first ran for office. The more people like him get elected, the more the window shifts back to the left, and the more electable actual liberals become.
 
2012-10-29 10:06:08 AM  

sprawl15: cman: There is a big problem with constitutional reformation.

If you were given one constitutional amendment, guaranteed to pass, what would you pick? Two people said term limits. Anderson proposed a sexual discrimination ban. Stein proposed something to overturn citizens united. Aside from Anderson, they're all looking to improve representation of the individual, but picking pissant problems to address rather than serious issues.

cman: Many of us want the people to choose what we in the third party have to offer. If the people dont want it, they shouldnt be forced to accept it. We will do our damnedest to ensure that our message gets out there, but giving ourselves a little of a leg up is simply undemocratic.

Without a shift to proportional representation (I don't even think IRV is enough), third parties are simply a joke. Period. I mean, I make fun of RONPAUL all day, but fundamentally if 10% of the populace wants to be in a RONPAUL party, then 10% of our representatives should be RONPAUL-oriented. I'd continue to make fun of them, but that's how it needs to work. And I'm just some asshole on the internet; I'm not running for president.


My preeference is for elimination of the EC, institution of IRV and establishing Congressional representation:population to equal 1:250000, giving more of a parlimentary House which would provide a means for alternate parties to establish themselves. I'd also like to see better access to the ballot, require free advertising on public airwaves and campaign contributions limited to $200 per individual or entity.

To resolve the whole SUPERPAC fiasco, I would require all those 501 organizaitons to spend a minimum of 50% of their revenue on actual direct-action that excludes advertisement in order to maintain their "charitable organization" standing.
 
2012-10-29 10:07:15 AM  

cman: Johnson wants to make it a federal civil rights case. Obama is perfectly content with letting the states decide if they want it or not.


Johnson's also more likely to be abducted by three-headed aliens and mutated into a pop music superstar for the amusement of the Alpha Centaurians than win. I'm not going to argue about the 14th Amendment vs a new amendment, because you're both right and either works for me, but by voting for Johnson you might as well be voting for Romney. Sorry, but it's true.
 
2012-10-29 10:07:37 AM  

relcec: Kind of do.
It has all the force of a half starved kitten. It can be overidden by the state's desire to create a diverse lesrning enviorment on the fiction that it helps foster learning in a 1L torts course. It doesn't apply to latinos within 500 miles of the border, or gay people anywhere. You couldn't tell it existed at all if you just looked at federal and state policy.


But can you see the problem with that plan? If we can't trust the states to abide by it now, how can we expect 3/4ths of them to pass a constitutional amendment empowering that language?
 
2012-10-29 10:15:51 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: ghare: Your picture is on the BSABSVR poster.

I'm pretty sure that Sprawl would cut his own head off before he'd vote for Romney.

ghare: He believes he's been chosen by God to lead America and start a dynasty that will last a thousand years. Really. No shiat.

All snark aside, I generally leave the Space Jesus thing alone (as insane and amusing as it is) because he doesn't really behave like he even believes in that. He might, sure, but judging by his actions, his only God is the Almighty Dollar.


For the LDS Church, money being god isn't a totally inaccurate accusation. It is one of the biggest pyramid schemes in the world, you know.
 
2012-10-29 10:16:55 AM  

HST's Dead Carcass: The last October Surprise will be Romney coming out in Blackface and telling everyone: Both sides are Black, so vote republican!


cdn.uproxx.com

"I'd give a million notes for a box full of votes for my Rommmmmney!!1!"

/Both sides are black but we're lighter skinned so vote Republican!
 
2012-10-29 10:17:15 AM  
I am starting to harbor a suspicion that self styled leftists such as Todd Cretin actually *want* the Republicans in power nationally.

What was the cause that permitted Cretin and his ilk to galvanize the most public support in the last ten years? Why, the war in Iraq, of course. Groups like ANSWER were able to organize demonstrations against the Iraq war that drew hundreds of thousands of people here.

It was as clear as crystal in 2000 that a George W Bush administration would be much more likely than an Al Gore administration to go off on an aggressive adventure in the Middle East. Nevertheless, Ralph Nader and his supporters continued to insist right down to election day that there was no difference at all between Bush and Gore. Turned out that there was, wasn't there?

So Bush won the election (we can of course give a lot of credit to Nader for that, for siphoning votes off from Gore) and got his aggressive war, and Todd Cretin and his friends got to feel good about themselves by organizing a bunch of big demonstrations against that war. It was win-win all around for them--but not for the rest of us. Personally, I'd have preferred to see Gore elected, Saddam still in power in Iraq, and Todd Cretin busying himself with organizing 500 person demonstrations against whatever it is that he believes to be the most outrageous injustice of the day.
 
2012-10-29 10:17:28 AM  

PonceAlyosha: relcec: Kind of do.
It has all the force of a half starved kitten. It can be overidden by the state's desire to create a diverse lesrning enviorment on the fiction that it helps foster learning in a 1L torts course. It doesn't apply to latinos within 500 miles of the border, or gay people anywhere. You couldn't tell it existed at all if you just looked at federal and state policy.

But can you see the problem with that plan? If we can't trust the states to abide by it now, how can we expect 3/4ths of them to pass a constitutional amendment empowering that language?


The fed is responsible for most of that. But yeah, impossible. Too many people on both sides of isle think state sponsored discrmination based on race, gender, and sexual orientation is not only proper, but necessary. Impossible. But the court will change its opinion as public opinion shifts. They always do. Just biatching about one of the two most important amenments being worth about a used diaper to both the left and right.
 
2012-10-29 10:18:55 AM  

Fluorescent Testicle: cman: Johnson wants to make it a federal civil rights case. Obama is perfectly content with letting the states decide if they want it or not.

Johnson's also more likely to be abducted by three-headed aliens and mutated into a pop music superstar for the amusement of the Alpha Centaurians than win. I'm not going to argue about the 14th Amendment vs a new amendment, because you're both right and either works for me, but by voting for Johnson you might as well be voting for Romney. Sorry, but it's true.


I am gonna go into that polling place on the 6th and happily check the box next to Johnsons name. I will be leaving with my head held high that I voted based upon my conscience, not upon trying to defend against someone else from getting the office. I live in Maine, and I pretty much guarantee you that Obama is taking the state and all three of the EC votes (our EC votes are not stacked and can be split). I hate Romney. I hate what he stands for. That farker is a phony asshole who will say whatever just to appease whomever is in the crowd. At the same time, I cannot vote for Obama. If he were to come out in favor of federal recognition of gay marriage he would have a better chance for my vote. My older sister means the world to me, and the fact that she cannot get married to her girlfriend tears me the fark apart.
 
2012-10-29 10:21:58 AM  

relcec: Just biatching about one of the two most important amenments being worth about a used diaper to both the left and right.


Who exactly does the "left" discriminate against?
 
2012-10-29 10:24:09 AM  
I gave up thinking Obama would push for any real social change years ago. He seems content to be a conservative president.
 
2012-10-29 10:27:28 AM  

PonceAlyosha: relcec: Just biatching about one of the two most important amenments being worth about a used diaper to both the left and right.

Who exactly does the "left" discriminate against?


Assuming you guys mean Democrats (who are not left by any stretch of the imagination), they discriminate against Republicans. Didn't you see that Daily Show segment?
 
2012-10-29 10:32:39 AM  
Why can't we all just get along??
 
2012-10-29 10:34:10 AM  

runwiz: Many liberal Democrats are disappointed in Obama but this disappointment is totally their fault. They've have created an Obama of their own mind and imagination; an Obama that doesn't really exist. He was the vehicle of their hopes but only in their minds. In reality he never was an engine for real change. He is just Republican-lite; the leader of the other corporate party. Neither of the 2 major parties really represents the working man nor do they stand for fair distribution of the wealth of our nation. An Obama reelection will only at best be marginally better than a Romney victory and could be worse.


I think this one should have gotten more bites. It's got the buzz words. The falsehoods should provoke outrage and defense of Obama, yet it's not over the top.

But, nobody went for it, so you score no points.
 
2012-10-29 10:34:34 AM  

FuturePastNow: I gave up thinking Obama would push for any real social change years ago. He seems content to be a conservative president.


Ended the 15 month extended combat tours with little or no time off in between

Ended DADT in the US military

Got health care reform passed

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act which allows women to sue for equal pay AFTER the 180 days originally ruled by the SCOTUS.

Yeah, he's not wanting social change. He's just gottdammed Republican.
 
2012-10-29 10:36:32 AM  

PonceAlyosha: relcec: Just biatching about one of the two most important amenments being worth about a used diaper to both the left and right.

Who exactly does the "left" discriminate against?


Latinos within 500 miles of the border, whites and asians in terms of public education and employment, and gays in all but a few contexts. The cases I'm alluding to were for the most part decisions ratified by liberal supreme courts. Obama didn't change his ownwishy washy position until public opinion actually swung the other way.
 
2012-10-29 10:39:00 AM  
kpaxoid
I believe this is called tearing off your nose to spite your face?

It's called "admitting when a strategy isn't working"


crab66
Ideological purity is a fools errand.

IOW you stand for nothing.


Jiro Dreams Of McRibs
Obama is trying his best to avoid it.

Obama is trying his best to make you think he's trying his best to avoid it. Then when it happens in a month or two you will make up any number of excuses why his hand was forced and now we all have to stand together for the good of the country or some bullshiat.


gameshowhost
Strategy. A simple, 2x2 game theory matrix with the goal of minimizing loss. *That's* why I will vote for Obama.

The choices are NOT "Vote for Obama" vs "Sit around eating potato chips"!


Bad_Seed
His evidence for a left-wing resurgence is pretty thin. The anti-war movement failed, the Walker recall failed, occupy failed. Sure more people are interested in radical politics than have been over the last 20 years, but they are direction-less, disorganised and bereft of ideas. Ultimately, nobody, not even the left can conceive of a realistic alternative to a global capitalism dominated by finance

The anti-war and anti-Walker movements failed because they were channeled into electoral politics. Occupy failed because it didn't have another good direction after refusing to be channeled into electoral politics, which is still a step in the right direction. If Occupy could even be said to have 'failed' considering the number of projects and networks it's spawned.


Philip Francis Queeg
The destruction of the social safety net, the further empowerment of the wealthy and corporations and the destruction of the middle class is significant social change.

93% of the economic recovery went to the 1%, and Obama is keeping cuts to social security and medicare on the table; next year they will almost certainly be cut as part of a deficit-reduction bargain.


HeartBurnKid
Is Obama going to change that reality? No, probably not. But he can shift the window a little to the left.

At best, voting for Obama could be slightly frictional- but not actually make progress in the other direction.

The more people like him get elected, the more the window shifts back to the left, and the more electable actual liberals become.

We've tried it your way. For the last six or seven years. It didn't work. It's time for a new strategy. Only Direct Action is left to us.
 
2012-10-29 10:41:28 AM  

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: FuturePastNow: I gave up thinking Obama would push for any real social change years ago. He seems content to be a conservative president.

Ended the 15 month extended combat tours with little or no time off in between

Ended DADT in the US military

Got health care reform passed

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act which allows women to sue for equal pay AFTER the 180 days originally ruled by the SCOTUS.

Yeah, he's not wanting social change. He's just gottdammed Republican.


And I think that's all pretty pathetic for someone who campaigned as a liberal.
 
2012-10-29 10:42:46 AM  

RanDomino: Philip Francis Queeg
The destruction of the social safety net, the further empowerment of the wealthy and corporations and the destruction of the middle class is significant social change.

93% of the economic recovery went to the 1%, and Obama is keeping cuts to social security and medicare on the table; next year they will almost certainly be cut as part of a deficit-reduction bargain.


And Romney claims that Obama has been punishing success.
 
2012-10-29 10:44:55 AM  

FuturePastNow: Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: FuturePastNow: I gave up thinking Obama would push for any real social change years ago. He seems content to be a conservative president.

Ended the 15 month extended combat tours with little or no time off in between

Ended DADT in the US military

Got health care reform passed

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act which allows women to sue for equal pay AFTER the 180 days originally ruled by the SCOTUS.

Yeah, he's not wanting social change. He's just gottdammed Republican.

And I think that's all pretty pathetic for someone who campaigned as a liberal.


??? He campaigned as a moderate and he is. Mostly he's done exactly what he said he'd do.
 
2012-10-29 10:45:14 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: RanDomino: Philip Francis Queeg
The destruction of the social safety net, the further empowerment of the wealthy and corporations and the destruction of the middle class is significant social change.

93% of the economic recovery went to the 1%, and Obama is keeping cuts to social security and medicare on the table; next year they will almost certainly be cut as part of a deficit-reduction bargain.

And Romney claims that Obama has been punishing success.


Yeah, CEOs just HATE Obama. They only made record salaries, bonuses and profits the past few years. That is why I laugh ass off when people say Obama makes CEOs accountable. Yeah, he sure did!
 
2012-10-29 10:46:49 AM  

machoprogrammer: That is why I laugh ass off when people say Obama makes CEOs accountable.


Wouldn't someone have to say that first?
 
2012-10-29 10:46:56 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: RanDomino: Philip Francis Queeg
The destruction of the social safety net, the further empowerment of the wealthy and corporations and the destruction of the middle class is significant social change.

93% of the economic recovery went to the 1%, and Obama is keeping cuts to social security and medicare on the table; next year they will almost certainly be cut as part of a deficit-reduction bargain.

And Romney claims that Obama has been punishing success.


Whatever Romney says is bullshiat, unless he's saying I am white and I should be President because I was resurrected from the dead and my daddy was rich and famous and ran for President!
 
2012-10-29 10:54:34 AM  

RanDomino:

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs
Obama is trying his best to avoid it.

Obama is trying his best to make you think he's trying his best to avoid it. Then when it happens in a month or two you will make up any number of excuses why his hand was forced and now we all have to stand together for the good of the country or some bullshiat.


Yep, Obama's the same thing. That's why you saw David Addington, Paul Wolfowitz and Ed Meese--all of whom belong in prison--asking questions at a Democratic primary debate.

Same thing.
 
2012-10-29 10:56:19 AM  

RanDomino: We've tried it your way. For the last six or seven years. It didn't work


You think 6 or 7 years is enough to undo 30 years of damage?
 
2012-10-29 10:56:35 AM  
Jiro Dreams Of McRibs
Ended the 15 month extended combat tours with little or no time off in between

Ended DADT in the US military


Oh, good. The military.

Got health care reform passed

I like how Democrats simultaneously say that this is both checked off the list and a stepping-stone to public option or single-payer.

If you're trying to convince progressives and radicals how great Obama is, try to talk about things we actually like.

Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act which allows women to sue for equal pay AFTER the 180 days originally ruled by the SCOTUS.

Truly revolutionary. This is definitely all the progress against patriarchy and misogyny we need in four years.


FuturePastNow
And I think that's all pretty pathetic for someone who campaigned as a liberal.

Liberal nothing. All the progressives thought he was the second coming. I know, I was part of those circles at the time. It was Obamamania.
 
2012-10-29 11:01:21 AM  

RanDomino: Truly revolutionary. This is definitely all the progress against patriarchy and misogyny we need in four years.


Your favourite food must be muffins made from broken glass.
 
2012-10-29 11:03:44 AM  

RanDomino: I like how Democrats simultaneously say that this is both checked off the list and a stepping-stone to public option or single-payer.


Because meeting in intermediary goal is never a cause for celebration, amirite?

Look, I get it. You're impatient. You want instant gratification. You want the whole world to change, and you want it NOW. The problem is, you're not going to get it. Slow and steady wins this race; after all, that's how the Republicans farked us over in the first place.

FFS, Reagan was a radical conservative in his day. He's to the left of every damn Republican in Congress and every damn Republican who ran for the Presidential nomination today. You think they pulled that off overnight?
 
2012-10-29 11:05:44 AM  
ghare
??? He campaigned as a moderate and he is.

Ahh you're right we're all just remembering wrong.


Jiro Dreams Of McRibs
Yep, Obama's the same thing. That's why you saw David Addington, Paul Wolfowitz and Ed Meese--all of whom belong in prison--asking questions at a Democratic primary debate.

Wow, what did I JUST SAY about how his strategy is to make liberals and progressives THINK that he's different?


HeartBurnKid
You think 6 or 7 years is enough to undo 30 years of damage?

Are you saying Clinton was part of the damage?
 
2012-10-29 11:10:38 AM  

RanDomino: Liberal nothing. All the progressives thought he was the second coming. I know, I was part of those circles at the time. It was Obamamania.


If you're looking for a progressive revolution, you're not going to get it from even the most progressive of pregressivey presidents. Not without supermajority PROGRESSIVES in the Senate and majority PROGRESSIVES in congress. Just look at the farking Dems who voted against Obamacare - and not because it wans't left-enough.

As a realist/pragmatist liberal, I understand that Obama is about as successful as a leftist could reasonably expect. To believe otherwise displays a surprising naïveté about how the American political system works.
 
2012-10-29 11:11:53 AM  

RanDomino: HeartBurnKid
You think 6 or 7 years is enough to undo 30 years of damage?

Are you saying Clinton was part of the damage?


If Obama is lukewarm change, you can't then argue Clinton wasn't part of the damage.
 
2012-10-29 11:15:20 AM  
HeartBurnKid
Because meeting in intermediary goal is never a cause for celebration, amirite?

Look, I get it. You're impatient. You want instant gratification. You want the whole world to change, and you want it NOW. The problem is, you're not going to get it. Slow and steady wins this race; after all, that's how the Republicans farked us over in the first place.


This is not an 'intermediate goal'. It's a compromise. A substitution. A way for them to say, "Shut up and be happy you got anything at all." Many people have said that this is a "stepping stone" but not one has yet said HOW it will lead to universal healthcare. Not even a dumb plan- I haven't heard any plan at all! The consistency of the "stepping stone" excuse, and lack of depth, leads me to believe that it's just a Democratic Party talking point, which apparatchiks like yourself like to spew because it lets you sound right.

It's okay, I know the feeling. Someone calls out your bullshiat, so you go to the blogs and the Party websites looking for something to prove you right. And, lo and behold, they have these prepackaged arguments set up for you and ready to go. I used to do it. I understand. Then I realized that I was rejecting science and logic just to Be Right. So I stopped.

Since then I've lost 30 pounds, got an exciting and lucrative career in my field, and am dating three supermodels, and you can too! Just stop doing this!

FFS, Reagan was a radical conservative in his day. He's to the left of every damn Republican in Congress and every damn Republican who ran for the Presidential nomination today. You think they pulled that off overnight?

They pulled it off through a massive but steady saturation of propaganda. We don't have the money to just buy up radio stations and newspapers, so we need a different strategy- one which people like you are fond of crapping on.
 
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