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(Some Socialist)   The left have convinced themselves of fiction that Obama is the only chance they have for real social change. Of course, BSABSVR, so vote Obama anyways   (socialistworker.org) divider line 207
    More: Obvious, obama, Mayor Rahm Emanuel, SDS, Wall Street protests, fictions, Lyndon B. Johnson, historiographies  
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1093 clicks; posted to Politics » on 29 Oct 2012 at 8:14 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-29 08:03:23 AM
The word is anyway. Or do denie that, Subby?
 
2012-10-29 08:17:07 AM
A well thought-out written article. Although I do not agree with your positions, I must say your presentation was first class

/This is how ye troll
 
2012-10-29 08:18:01 AM
It was my understanding that everyone had heard that the bird is the word.
 
2012-10-29 08:18:50 AM
Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.
 
2012-10-29 08:20:30 AM
Socialism only works in extremely high trust societies, and even then things can go wrong. America is simply too big and diverse to be a society like that.
 
2012-10-29 08:20:53 AM

GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.


Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?
 
2012-10-29 08:21:21 AM

GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.


Because you want a Romney presidency but aren't self loathing enough to actually vote for him?
 
2012-10-29 08:21:39 AM

beta_plus: Socialism only works in extremely high trust societies, and even then things can go wrong. America is simply too big and diverse to be a society like that.


All large systems fail.
 
2012-10-29 08:22:14 AM

mat catastrophe: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?


BUT ROMENY == OBAMA!!!
 
2012-10-29 08:22:25 AM
And what kind of 'social change' is the 'Right' offering us, Subby?
 
2012-10-29 08:23:28 AM
I believe this is called tearing off your nose to spite your face?
 
2012-10-29 08:23:34 AM

Cythraul: And what kind of 'social change' is the 'Right' offering us, Subby?


Feudalism is a kind of social change.
 
2012-10-29 08:23:41 AM

beta_plus: Socialism only works in extremely high trust societies, and even then things can go wrong. America is simply too big and diverse to be a society like that.


Fortunately for us, we have a President who is anti-Socialist and has shown he is firmly in his record.
 
2012-10-29 08:23:49 AM

beta_plus: Socialism only works in extremely high trust societies, and even then things can go wrong. America is simply too big and diverse to be a society like that.


I don't think socialism as a formal system of government works anywhere. Socialism as a useful toiol of civilization, on the other hand, works here and a lot of other places. Just like capitalism - it's a good idea that becomes a bad idea when it becomes an ideology.
Capitalism and socialism are tools, not philosophies.
 
2012-10-29 08:24:09 AM
Oh we're still pushing the "Obama = Socialist's Hope" narrative? Damn. I guess that's why liberals completely ignored Kucinich en masse during the primaries, huh?
 
2012-10-29 08:24:28 AM
Yeah--well this highlights a pretty relevant point: The extreme left isn't a part of the Democratic party. The extreme right IS the Republican Party.
 
2012-10-29 08:25:41 AM

Altair: Oh we're still pushing the "Obama = Socialist's Hope" narrative? Damn. I guess that's why liberals completely ignored Kucinich en masse during the primaries, huh?


Yes, ignoring the incumbent during the election is always a great political move.

/Kucinich is the man!
//I'd vote for any hobbit that can land an amazon princess for a wife
 
2012-10-29 08:26:15 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: mat catastrophe: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?

BUT ROMENY == OBAMA!!!


On all but maybe three issues, most related to women, yes.
 
2012-10-29 08:26:33 AM

HST's Dead Carcass: Altair: Oh we're still pushing the "Obama = Socialist's Hope" narrative? Damn. I guess that's why liberals completely ignored Kucinich en masse during the primaries, huh?

Yes, ignoring the incumbent during the election is always a great political move.

/Kucinich is the man!
//I'd vote for any hobbit that can land an amazon princess for a wife


Was talking about 2008. Please try and keep up, will you?
 
2012-10-29 08:27:16 AM

GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.


Because you think your vote will magically create a multiple party, parlimentarian system in the US?

Because you think Ralph Nader did this country a great service by electing Bush-Cheney?

Because you think compromise is as un-American?

Because you think both parties want war in Iran so you won't vote for either one?
 
2012-10-29 08:27:19 AM

Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: BUT ROMENY == OBAMA!!!


Wait, Obama's a gypsy? I thought he was Kenyan!
 
2012-10-29 08:27:26 AM

TimonC346: Yeah--well this highlights a pretty relevant point: The extreme left isn't a part of the Democratic party. The extreme right IS the Republican Party.


That statement, while essentially true, is liable to generate some fairly severe butthurt and denial.
 
2012-10-29 08:28:21 AM
You are going to have to excuse me for not caring what socialists or libertarians think.


Ideological purity is a fools errand.
 
2012-10-29 08:28:38 AM
Oh subby, it's too early to make me laugh this hard. I mean, an actual left wing in the United States? Next tell me about the unicorns.
 
2012-10-29 08:29:59 AM

GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.


You live in Tennessee and your vote doesn't matter?
 
2012-10-29 08:30:39 AM

Cythraul: And what kind of 'social change' is the 'Right' offering us, Subby?


Technically, replacing civil rights, gay rights and women's suffrage with a hardcore Christian theocracy is a type of social change.
 
2012-10-29 08:31:03 AM

crab66: You are going to have to excuse me for not caring what socialists or libertarians think.


Ideological purity is a fools errand.


They try to turn things that are merely useful tools into holy grails of ideological rectitude. In their world-view, only their "thing" can ever work for anyone, anywhere.
 
2012-10-29 08:31:09 AM

Girl From The North Country: The word is anyway. Or do denie that, Subby?


Just who do you think you are? Anyway?


// Senator, I knew Anyway. Anyway was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Anyway...
 
2012-10-29 08:31:58 AM

Boxcutta: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

You live in Tennessee and your vote doesn't matter?


I'm in Nebraska and my vote doesn't matter, ever!
 
2012-10-29 08:33:18 AM

mat catastrophe: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: mat catastrophe: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?

BUT ROMENY == OBAMA!!!

On all but maybe three issues, most related to women, yes.


War with Iran. Romney has said he will do it. Obama is trying his best to avoid it.

Romney and his neo-cons from the Bush administration think they can invade Iran with a volunteer force. Iran is 4 times the size of Iraq; 1.5 million military went into Iraq. Romney will have to draft your loved ones--not his, your loved ones--to have his profit machine bust up Iran, one of the oldest civilizations on the planet.

And why? Not just because of profit but because of what used to be called the Wolfowitz doctrine--the US will not allow the rise of another super-power or world power. And if the neo-cons don't want Iran to reach the tipping point of world power, imagine how they feel about Communist China flexing over Asia.

Iran might not be Romney's only war if the neo-cons have anything to do with it.
 
2012-10-29 08:33:57 AM
25.media.tumblr.com
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-10-29 08:34:15 AM

GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.


Exercise?
 
2012-10-29 08:34:35 AM

Girl From The North Country: The word is anyway. Or do denie that, Subby?


Oh god! Now it's spreading to other threads!

i623.photobucket.com
 
2012-10-29 08:36:06 AM
Anybody that still thinks Obama is a socialist is a farking moron
 
2012-10-29 08:38:02 AM

cman: /This is how ye troll


Well done sir. LBJ's 'betrayal' of Students for a Democratic Society was 3rd degree burn stupid. The author was right about Clinton though, as president he did only slightly less damage than Bush.
 
2012-10-29 08:40:33 AM

crab66: You are going to have to excuse me for not caring what socialists or libertarians think.


Ideological purity is a fools errand.

 
2012-10-29 08:42:30 AM

Jiro Dreams Of McRibs: mat catastrophe: Terrified Asexual Forcemeat: mat catastrophe: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?

BUT ROMENY == OBAMA!!!

On all but maybe three issues, most related to women, yes.

War with Iran. Romney has said he will do it. Obama is trying his best to avoid it.

Romney and his neo-cons from the Bush administration think they can invade Iran with a volunteer force. Iran is 4 times the size of Iraq; 1.5 million military went into Iraq. Romney will have to draft your loved ones--not his, your loved ones--to have his profit machine bust up Iran, one of the oldest civilizations on the planet.

And why? Not just because of profit but because of what used to be called the Wolfowitz doctrine--the US will not allow the rise of another super-power or world power. And if the neo-cons don't want Iran to reach the tipping point of world power, imagine how they feel about Communist China flexing over Asia.

Iran might not be Romney's only war if the neo-cons have anything to do with it.


Ok, while that might be the Wolfowitz doctrine, Iran is not even remotely close to becoming a world power. At best they are a moderate power in the region, basically on par with Turkey. Remember, Iraq was their counter balance up until we kicked down their house.

You DO have a point about China, but you also forget that they make boatloads of money shipping our jobs there. They may bluster about Chinese currency manipulation, needing a bigger navy, etc. but in the end its all a magic show to keep us focused away from their other hand selling out the citizenry and cashing out the treasury.
 
2012-10-29 08:43:30 AM

mat catastrophe: Because you want to encourage third parties to keep wasting their time, money, and effort on national elections they cannot win (and even if they did, would find themselves powerless to effect any change) instead of focusing on local elections first and building up a base of support in communities that would, in the short term, have a greater effect on your day-to-day life than who the President is and, in the long term, lead to the actual possibility of national gains?


There were a number of Libertarian and Green party people on the ballot for me on the non-Big Election items. Of course, they were running for President/Senators as well.
 
2012-10-29 08:44:04 AM

jso2897: beta_plus: Socialism only works in extremely high trust societies, and even then things can go wrong. America is simply too big and diverse to be a society like that.

I don't think socialism as a formal system of government works anywhere. Socialism as a useful toiol of civilization, on the other hand, works here and a lot of other places. Just like capitalism - it's a good idea that becomes a bad idea when it becomes an ideology.
Capitalism and socialism are tools, not philosophies.



Tools. Exactly. And sometimes one is needed to help the other - like when bankers show up in DC and tell the President that if the People don't fork over hundreds of billions of dollars to keep their CAPITALIST bank afloat, then the whole US economy melt down.

Motherfarkers have no problem with redistribution of wealth, only the vectors,
 
2012-10-29 08:45:43 AM
I see Obama's presidency as an indication that this country isn't too far gone, that there's still some chance we can move back to the center.
 
2012-10-29 08:49:44 AM
Headline: The left have convinced themselves of fiction that Obama is the only chance they have for real social change. Of course, Both sides are bad, so vote republican, so vote Obama anyways

You're an idiot subs.

/MSM MAINSTREAM MEDIA
 
2012-10-29 08:50:46 AM

Captain_Ballbeard: j
Tools. Exactly. And sometimes one is needed to help the other - like when bankers show up in DC and tell the President that if the People don't fork over hundreds of billions of dollars to keep their CAPITALIST bank afloat, then the whole US economy melt down.

Motherfarkers have no problem with redistribution of wealth, only the vectors,


Do you call reuniting kidnapped children with their parents 'redistribution'?

The 0.1% like to think of it of as being reunited with their long lost money. Totally different.
 
2012-10-29 08:51:05 AM
Subby, if you're gonna use a cool acronym like 'BSABSVR', you should try and figure out what it stands for, otherwise you have a sentence that ends up saying: 'both sides are bad so vote Republican, so vote Obama', which is an insult to everyone who actually submitted a good headline, but didn't get the green.
 
2012-10-29 08:54:04 AM
Many liberal Democrats are disappointed in Obama but this disappointment is totally their fault. They've have created an Obama of their own mind and imagination; an Obama that doesn't really exist. He was the vehicle of their hopes but only in their minds. In reality he never was an engine for real change. He is just Republican-lite; the leader of the other corporate party. Neither of the 2 major parties really represents the working man nor do they stand for fair distribution of the wealth of our nation. An Obama reelection will only at best be marginally better than a Romney victory and could be worse.
 
2012-10-29 08:56:27 AM
Calling out Farker in headline.
 
2012-10-29 08:56:56 AM
Strategy. A simple, 2x2 game theory matrix with the goal of minimizing loss. *That's* why I will vote for Obama.

/in the end, protest/ideological votes garner you nothing - the air of superiority quickly wears off
//you really want more hard-right scotus justices? really?
/because that's what 'not voting for obama' boils down to
 
2012-10-29 08:58:41 AM

Amdam: Anybody that still thinks Obama is a socialist is a farking moron


Socialist is just a code word for n****r. I thought that was understood. Please try to keep up.
 
2012-10-29 08:58:50 AM
His evidence for a left-wing resurgence is pretty thin. The anti-war movement failed, the Walker recall failed, occupy failed. Sure more people are interested in radical politics than have been over the last 20 years, but they are direction-less, disorganised and bereft of ideas. Ultimately, nobody, not even the left can conceive of a realistic alternative to a global capitalism dominated by finance. The fact is that we're living in a deeply reactionary time and there are few options available, so you end up voting for moderate conservatives like Barak Obama.
 
2012-10-29 08:59:00 AM

vpb: GAT_00: Really? Because there's a reason I'm voting for Jill Stein.

Exercise?


I'm actually trying to decide to vote early or next Tuesday when I can walk to my polling place, because I've never done that before.
 
2012-10-29 08:59:09 AM
Here's the thing: the two parties are constantly renegotiating their platforms to keep the balance somewhere close to 50/50 with respect to the population. If you don't like the Democratic Party platform because it isn't liberal enough, then the best thing you can do is to contribute to a Democratic supermajority. If you vote Democrat earnestly and help them get 70 Senators and 70% of congress (Alas! A pipe dream!), the party will begin to have a serious discussion about how far to the left they can step while still holding onto a majority of voters.
 
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