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(AZCentral)   Microsoft finds little demand for Windows 8 ... probably because consumers still haven't forgiven them for Vista   (azcentral.com) divider line 222
    More: Followup, Microsoft, Windows, Vista, Apple products, GfK, Kindle Fire, desktop computers, consumers  
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3255 clicks; posted to Business » on 29 Oct 2012 at 10:39 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-29 01:07:40 PM

Flint Ironstag: Sargun: Flint Ironstag: MrSteve007: Complainers in 2009 = Ugggh! When will Microsoft get with the program and release an OS that is designed for a touchscreen!?!

Complainers in 2012 = Ugggh! My start menu is now designed to work with both a touchscreen and a mouse. The world's going to end!!!

Why was it necessary to remove the Start button, My Computer etc from the traditional desktop to make it touch compatible?

Desktop PCs and tablets are like cars and bikes. Should some car/bike manufacturer like Honda bring out a unified set of controls for both their cars and bikes? Should car controls be changed drastically to make them "more bike like"? Take away that accelerator pedal, put a twist throttle on the steering wheel! You'll get used to it!

No one is complaining that they added touch screen functions. They're complaining because they took away mouse functions that millions of people were used to that could have been kept without compromising the touch functions in any way.

Because Metro replaces the Start Button and "My Computer" was only a shortcut. You can still do the exact same thing (actually, more) in 8 than 7 in Computer.

So instead of clicking Start then the program I want, or ALL Programs, then what I want) I now have to find the three pixels in the corner, wait for a pop up to appear, click Metro, then scroll sideways to find what I want? That's a pain.

And Metro programs and Desktop programs don't talk. On Desktop I have all my bookmarks bar in Chrome. In Metro Chrome has none of my bookmarks. Open Chrome in Metro and it is full screen only. What if I want a small Chrome window and something else, that is already open in Desktop, open? I can only do that in Desktop, which means I can't use the Metro as a Start button to open it.


To be fair it's more than just a few pixels in the corner...it's the corner itself. Arguably it requires much less precision than having to point at an actual button...just slide it into the corner. Or you can hit the Windows key. I don't understand why they did away with the icon but of all the changes they made, this is the least significant. Also, since the Start Menu is now full screen, there's plenty of room for you applications, there's not really much need to scroll. If you find that you do, you can rearrange the icons to put the most commonly used in the front.

As far as Metro Chrome not talking to Desktop Chrome, complain to Google. They wrote it that way. Until the fix it, stop using both and stick to one copy. Why would you use both versions anyway?
 
2012-10-29 01:08:07 PM

MrSteve007: 2. Search also works just like before. You can still just hit the Windows key and start typing - your search comes up full screen.

3. They're designed for full screen, and being "pinned" to the side of the screen. I enjoy pinning the music app to the side while using the regular desktop. Then using the windows key + to split my open applications to either half of the remaining screen. With a dual 27" monitor setup, it's stupid simple to get 5 side-by-side applications running at the same time.


I appreciate the clarification on the search thing. The full-screen is still something I can't get past right now with high resolution multiple displays but at least it does search when typing. If you disable metro (can you?) what happens when you press the Windows key?
 
2012-10-29 01:12:15 PM
My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

But anyway, since 8 does have a desktop mode, and presumably a bunch of improvements in speed, I am considering loading 8 on to it.

Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?
 
2012-10-29 01:14:12 PM

RoyBatty: Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?


$40 to Microsoft's coffers?


/I keed because I don't actually know the answer
 
2012-10-29 01:15:57 PM

MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: Desktop PCs and tablets are like cars and bikes. Should some car/bike manufacturer like Honda bring out a unified set of controls for both their cars and bikes? Should car controls be changed drastically to make them "more bike like"? Take away that accelerator pedal, put a twist throttle on the steering wheel! You'll get used to it!

Nice example. Actually, Honda did exactly that in the 1970's with their motorcycles, and the rest of the industry followed suit in the following years (Honda unified the brakes on the right side of the bike and shifting on the left. Before that, both American and British bikes had the foot brake and shifters on opposing sides).

Flint Ironstag: Why was it necessary to remove the Start button, My Computer etc from the traditional desktop to make it touch compatible?

Pretty much, yes, unless you want a big ass icon that eats up screen space vs. a swipe gesture for touch / corner icon for mouse. After using a Surface RT over the weekend, and Win 8 on my laptop/docked workstation, it makes a lot of sense. I was frustrated for the first couple hours, but once I learned the UI, I like it quite a bit. It's very flexible across multiple devices and uses.


Honda didn't try to unify cars and bikes.

And having no Start button makes sense for Metro. But on Desktop there is still a taskbar. What screen real estate would the Start Button be taking up?

Metro for touch screen tablets, Desktop for traditional PCs. Why screw up the 'traditional'desktop interface by taking away features millions of users got used to to add touch options when they could have been kept alongside the touch options?

Hell, why aim the traditional desktop at touch anyway? Apart from very specific uses, like menu screens in McDonalds etc, home PCs will remain mouse/keyboard. Can you imagine having to use your arm at full reach for hours while sitting at a desk? Rather than the mouse (or in my case trackerball) where your arm is resting on the desk? That would be an ergonomic nightmare.
Let alone trying to keep your PC screen clean with all the fingerprints....
 
2012-10-29 01:18:24 PM

Gig103: If you disable metro (can you?) what happens when you press the Windows key?


I don't believe so, unless you install a 3rd party program like start8 - but I haven't installed or played with it.
 
2012-10-29 01:21:43 PM

RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

But anyway, since 8 does have a desktop mode, and presumably a bunch of improvements in speed, I am considering loading 8 on to it.

Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?


It has a nifty restore option that has more options on how to reload and not to lose everything than many of the previous versions.
 
2012-10-29 01:24:58 PM

Flint Ironstag: MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: Desktop PCs and tablets are like cars and bikes. Should some car/bike manufacturer like Honda bring out a unified set of controls for both their cars and bikes? Should car controls be changed drastically to make them "more bike like"? Take away that accelerator pedal, put a twist throttle on the steering wheel! You'll get used to it!

Nice example. Actually, Honda did exactly that in the 1970's with their motorcycles, and the rest of the industry followed suit in the following years (Honda unified the brakes on the right side of the bike and shifting on the left. Before that, both American and British bikes had the foot brake and shifters on opposing sides).

Flint Ironstag: Why was it necessary to remove the Start button, My Computer etc from the traditional desktop to make it touch compatible?

Pretty much, yes, unless you want a big ass icon that eats up screen space vs. a swipe gesture for touch / corner icon for mouse. After using a Surface RT over the weekend, and Win 8 on my laptop/docked workstation, it makes a lot of sense. I was frustrated for the first couple hours, but once I learned the UI, I like it quite a bit. It's very flexible across multiple devices and uses.

Honda didn't try to unify cars and bikes.

And having no Start button makes sense for Metro. But on Desktop there is still a taskbar. What screen real estate would the Start Button be taking up?

Metro for touch screen tablets, Desktop for traditional PCs. Why screw up the 'traditional'desktop interface by taking away features millions of users got used to to add touch options when they could have been kept alongside the touch options?

Hell, why aim the traditional desktop at touch anyway? Apart from very specific uses, like menu screens in McDonalds etc, home PCs will remain mouse/keyboard. Can you imagine having to use your arm at full reach for hours while sitting at a desk? Rather than the mouse (or in my case trackerball) where your arm is resting on the de ...


Well you've got to remember, MS would like people to run Win8 Pro, not just RT, on touch enabled devices. For example, the Surface Pro will run Win8 Pro. One of the selling features is you'll have full desktop capability without the need for a mouse or keyboard. I'm not saying it was the smartest thing for them to do...a simple toggle switch to put a Start button on the taskbar would have gone a long way....but not having the button there is trivial. A new user to Win8 might be confused the first time they sit down but it's not hard to invoke once you know where it is. Also, after you install Win8 for the first time it gives you a ever so brief tutorial on how to bring up the Start Screen and the Charms Bar on the right hand side....
 
2012-10-29 01:25:42 PM

RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...


So in other words, you visit a lot of porn sites and/or steal a lot of software.
 
2012-10-29 01:25:49 PM

ForgotMyTowel:
To be fair it's more than just a few pixels in the corner...it's the corner itself. Arguably it requires much less precision than having to point at an actual button...just slide it into the corner. Or you can hit the Windows key. I don't understand why they did away with the icon but of all the changes they made, this is the least significant. Also, since the Start Menu is now full screen, there's plenty of room for you applications, there's not really much need to scroll. If you find that you do, you can rearrange the icons to put the most commonly used in the front.

As far as Metro Chrome not talking to Desktop Chrome, complain to Google. They wrote it that way. Until the fix it, stop using both and stick to one copy. Why would you use both versions anyway?.


Thinking about it the corner thing is probably due to my dual monitor setup. Because my video card doesn't play with W8 and I've had to order a new one (due tomorrow! Yay!) I am only using one monitor at the moment, the left one. So I don't just move the mouse into the corner because I am used to it then moving over to the next screen. Trying it your way, the single monitor way, it is easy.

But it is still more involved and more work to open the Metro screen than slicking Start.

But not for me, thanks to Classic Shell.

So far, with Classic Shell (or Start 8 which looks like it does much the same) I am very happy and glad I upgraded. At least I will be when I get my second screen back.

But had Classic Shell or Start 8 not existed I would not be nearly as happy. It is a lot of change for no reason. They didn't need to take away mouse functions to add touch functions.
 
2012-10-29 01:29:42 PM

Flint Ironstag: ForgotMyTowel:
To be fair it's more than just a few pixels in the corner...it's the corner itself. Arguably it requires much less precision than having to point at an actual button...just slide it into the corner. Or you can hit the Windows key. I don't understand why they did away with the icon but of all the changes they made, this is the least significant. Also, since the Start Menu is now full screen, there's plenty of room for you applications, there's not really much need to scroll. If you find that you do, you can rearrange the icons to put the most commonly used in the front.

As far as Metro Chrome not talking to Desktop Chrome, complain to Google. They wrote it that way. Until the fix it, stop using both and stick to one copy. Why would you use both versions anyway?.

Thinking about it the corner thing is probably due to my dual monitor setup. Because my video card doesn't play with W8 and I've had to order a new one (due tomorrow! Yay!) I am only using one monitor at the moment, the left one. So I don't just move the mouse into the corner because I am used to it then moving over to the next screen. Trying it your way, the single monitor way, it is easy.

But it is still more involved and more work to open the Metro screen than slicking Start.

But not for me, thanks to Classic Shell.

So far, with Classic Shell (or Start 8 which looks like it does much the same) I am very happy and glad I upgraded. At least I will be when I get my second screen back.

But had Classic Shell or Start 8 not existed I would not be nearly as happy. It is a lot of change for no reason. They didn't need to take away mouse functions to add touch functions.


I hear you. Just one more option also would be to put the mouse in any right hand corner and click the Start button from the Charms Bar. Not nearly as easy but a work around until you get the monitors squared away. I've been tempted to run something like Classic Shell or the like but I'd rather learn the UI (being in IT) just in case my company every decides to go that route. Also, for those admin types listening, Win Key + X is a life saver for me...
 
2012-10-29 01:29:53 PM

RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

But anyway, since 8 does have a desktop mode, and presumably a bunch of improvements in speed, I am considering loading 8 on to it.

Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?


I have a HD DC7900 desktop with Core 2Duo E8400 at 3Ghz. Admittedly I was running XP, far older than the mobo and chip, but W8 is far faster.

Try it and see, the upgrade deal is very good, and I can certainly recommend Classic Shell if you find you really miss the Start button and other W7 features.
 
2012-10-29 01:32:06 PM

RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

But anyway, since 8 does have a desktop mode, and presumably a bunch of improvements in speed, I am considering loading 8 on to it.

Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?


Having used the Beta at home, on my older desktops, I would say "no".
It works fine once you figure it out and configure it the way you like it (took me about twenty minutes), and it is a little faster - especially on boot-up and opening apps. But I wouldn't spend the money - the new capabilities it has don't apply to an older desktop with no touchscreen.
I would buy a new device that had W8 on it without hesitation, but I see no reason to upgrade a standard desktop or laptop to it.
 
2012-10-29 01:32:28 PM

MrSteve007: Gig103: If you disable metro (can you?) what happens when you press the Windows key?

I don't believe so, unless you install a 3rd party program like start8 - but I haven't installed or played with it.


Classic Shell doesn't disable Metro in any way, just gives you the start button. Pressing the Windows Key just brings up the traditional Start menu.

This is my point, if Classic Shell can give you the W7 look and feel without in any way compromising the touchscreen functions then why the hell couldn't MS have done that in the first place?
 
2012-10-29 01:33:55 PM

ForgotMyTowel: Also, after you install Win8 for the first time it gives you a ever so brief tutorial on how to bring up the Start Screen and the Charms Bar on the right hand side....


I never got a tutorial!
 
2012-10-29 01:34:31 PM

Lando Lincoln: RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

So in other words, you visit a lot of porn sites and/or steal a lot of software.


There are people who don't?
 
2012-10-29 01:35:15 PM

Gig103: RoyBatty: Does Windows 8 bring anything to a roughly 3 year old $700 (that is, basic hardware, nothing special) HP desktop?

$40 to Microsoft's coffers?


/I keed because I don't actually know the answer


Oh, I can get a free license. So the true cost is more like the waste of time if I end up tweaking it for a day or so and then end up having to reinstall 7 a week later.
 
2012-10-29 01:38:06 PM

Lando Lincoln: RoyBatty: My desktop is finally reaching it's Windows 7 entropy limit and Desktop Exploder keeps crashing.

So I am thinking of doing the old wipe and reinstall on it.

Granted under XP this was required once a year, and on 7 it seems to be required once in three years...

So in other words, you visit a lot of porn sites and/or steal a lot of software.


Yeah, sure.

It's not that 3 years of loading crappy programs with crappy installers can't eventually bork windows 7.

(I think it's Google Drive that's causing the issue, it seems to go away when Google Drive is not running.)
 
2012-10-29 01:38:42 PM

Flint Ironstag: This is my point, if Classic Shell can give you the W7 look and feel without in any way compromising the touchscreen functions then why the hell couldn't MS have done that in the first place?


I take it you never used Windows 7 on a touchscreen device? If you had, you wouldn't claim that classic shell does nothing to compromise the UI in that situation.
 
2012-10-29 01:38:55 PM
(I think it's Google Drive that's causing the issue, it seems to go away when Google Drive is not running.)

Actually not sure why I wrote that, it's actually exiting dropbox that makes the problem go away. Need coffee I guess.
 
2012-10-29 01:42:16 PM

Flint Ironstag: ForgotMyTowel: Also, after you install Win8 for the first time it gives you a ever so brief tutorial on how to bring up the Start Screen and the Charms Bar on the right hand side....

I never got a tutorial!


Really? Did you install the retail version (released Friday) or are you still on the RTM preview? On the retail version, right before it dumps you into the Start Screen after installing it has this lil gif like animation that shows a finger going into the lower left corner for the Start Screen and lower right for the Charms Bar then tells you to try it. That's all there is but it at least tells you how to get started, lol.
 
2012-10-29 01:43:27 PM
Are you people really still biatching about this?

It works fine.
 
2012-10-29 01:45:38 PM
"I am not real thrilled they are changing things around," Dionne said. "Windows 7 does everything I want it to. Where is the return on my investment to learn a new OS?"

And that's pretty much hitting the nail on the head. One thing not mentioned is that from WIN95 thru WIN7 the basic system remained the same. Switching to something else meant having to relearn everything. The big excuse for business for NOT switching to some *Nix system was "OMG!! Retrains because DIFFERENTS!!". Now WIN8 makes everything different and that eliminates a major reason that prevented switching. If you're going to retrain anyway, why not retrain on something different?

/still running XP, in a virtual machine, on Debian
//how does WIN7 do in a VM?
 
2012-10-29 01:49:00 PM

Marine1: Are you people really still biatching about this?

It works fine.


So does MS DOS 6. The question isn't whether it works, but whether it's an improvement.
 
2012-10-29 01:55:34 PM

slayer199: What did they farking expect? You spend 17 years getting people accustomed to one way of doing things...the Start button. Then you eliminate it. It would have been one thing if it had been a gradual switch, giving users the option to go back to the Start Button/menu. But to make a radical change like that and expect consumers to adopt it? Someone at Microsoft must be stoned.

Additionally (and I've said this before), the Enterprise will not switch to Windows 8. Many companies are still on XP and are in the process of migrating to Windows 7. I can't see a situation where a company will embrace Windows 8 because of the amount of retraining it will require.

Furthermore, they've made the same UI changes to Server 2012. WTF Microsoft? I don't need the same farking interface that I'd have on a tablet on a server. Despite the fact that I'm more a VMware/Storage guy, I still have to do some support on the OSes. Thankfully, RedHat isn't stupid enough to make such radical changes.


Not only are many companies on Windows XP (and governments as well), they're still using the MS Office 2003. Since I used to work in the Canadian Government, I didn't bother upgrading my own Office to 2007 or 2010 since if I did any work on my home PC, I would need to make absolutely sure it was all back-compatible. After getting downsized (not unhappy about that all told, though I do miss the people and the regular paycheque) I've gone back to school and gotten a cheap student copy of MS Office 2010.

I farking hate MS Office 2010. I farking hate it with a farking passion. I hate the Ribbon. I hate all the damned buttons that make things look so pretty but are utterly useless for me. I don't need to have a crap load of cell formats taking up 75% of the ribbon - if I want to make a cell look a certain way I can damn well format it myself. hate that all the things I do need (like adding Macros to Excel, and Watermarks to documents) are hidden behind layers of obfuscation. I like computers. I like software. And I farking hate MS Office 2007-2010. I can see why the government refuses to upgrade; you've got hundreds of thousands of people in the government who would need to be retrained on how to use farking MS Office, even if that retraining was just a single days worth, going through MS Word, MS Excel and MS Powerpoint. I'm a guy who used all of those for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year. I'm the guy in the office that everyone would come over to and ask for help. And I need to have a training course to use this crap.

Take all of that and say "Ditto" for Windows 8, from what I've seen of it.
 
2012-10-29 02:01:03 PM

MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: This is my point, if Classic Shell can give you the W7 look and feel without in any way compromising the touchscreen functions then why the hell couldn't MS have done that in the first place?

I take it you never used Windows 7 on a touchscreen device? If you had, you wouldn't claim that classic shell does nothing to compromise the UI in that situation.


What does Classic Shell take away from W8? What can't I do because I have Classic Shell?
 
2012-10-29 02:02:28 PM

ForgotMyTowel: Flint Ironstag: ForgotMyTowel: Also, after you install Win8 for the first time it gives you a ever so brief tutorial on how to bring up the Start Screen and the Charms Bar on the right hand side....

I never got a tutorial!

Really? Did you install the retail version (released Friday) or are you still on the RTM preview? On the retail version, right before it dumps you into the Start Screen after installing it has this lil gif like animation that shows a finger going into the lower left corner for the Start Screen and lower right for the Charms Bar then tells you to try it. That's all there is but it at least tells you how to get started, lol.


I downloaded the $40 deal on Saturday. It might have offered me that, but I can't remember it.
 
2012-10-29 02:06:14 PM
Skip even numbered Microsoft OS releases.
 
2012-10-29 02:10:06 PM

MrEricSir: Marine1: Are you people really still biatching about this?

It works fine.

So does MS DOS 6. The question isn't whether it works, but whether it's an improvement.


It's an improvement at best and a lateral move at worst.

It's like everything else that changes: you'll get over it. We always have, we always will.
 
2012-10-29 02:17:34 PM

slayer199: What did they farking expect? You spend 17 years getting people accustomed to one way of doing things...the Start button. Then you eliminate it. It would have been one thing if it had been a gradual switch, giving users the option to go back to the Start Button/menu. But to make a radical change like that and expect consumers to adopt it? Someone at Microsoft must be stoned.

Additionally (and I've said this before), the Enterprise will not switch to Windows 8. Many companies are still on XP and are in the process of migrating to Windows 7. I can't see a situation where a company will embrace Windows 8 because of the amount of retraining it will require.

Furthermore, they've made the same UI changes to Server 2012. WTF Microsoft? I don't need the same farking interface that I'd have on a tablet on a server. Despite the fact that I'm more a VMware/Storage guy, I still have to do some support on the OSes. Thankfully, RedHat isn't stupid enough to make such radical changes.


You have one large oversight. Ipads and such are wildly popular with executives and management, but they are impossible to secure. Every single secure enterprise IT environment has been itching for Windows 8 simply so they can strip the farking Ipads out of their hands and hand them an actually secure tablet that they can actually use inside the network.
 
2012-10-29 02:19:40 PM
I'll jump from 7 when I'm done with it. I'll let other people work the kinks out of 8, or conclude that it's un-salvageable like most even-numbered MS OS releases. Microsoft is asking me to move from an OS I'm okay with to a total wildcard, and have me pay for the privilege.

Pass.
 
2012-10-29 02:20:18 PM

Techhell: I don't need to have a crap load of cell formats taking up 75% of the ribbon - if I want to make a cell look a certain way I can damn well format it myself. hate that all the things I do need (like adding Macros to Excel, and Watermarks to documents) are hidden behind layers of obfuscation.


In Office 2010 or 2012, you can customize the ribbon UI & quick start to do and show whatever you want - well beyond that of any of the menus in Office 2003 - right?
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

Since you claim that you're the guy that people go to for answers, you're awfully misinformed.
 
2012-10-29 02:21:29 PM

Flint Ironstag: I have a HD DC7900 desktop with Core 2Duo E8400 at 3Ghz. Admittedly I was running XP, far older than the mobo and chip, but W8 is far faster.

Try it and see, the upgrade deal is very good, and I can certainly recommend Classic Shell if you find you really miss the Start button and other W7 features.


After reading here about Classic Shell and Start8, I think I will try it see what happens.
 
2012-10-29 02:23:11 PM
If I were buying a new tablet device - I'd probably get a Windows 8 tablet. The Surface looking pretty interesting and I really do enjoy Windows 8.

But I won't be replacing Ubuntu/Windows 7 on my tablet and I don't see any reason why I'd ever put Windows 8 on my desktop. And I say this as someone who would pay $0 for it.
 
2012-10-29 02:37:39 PM

Flint Ironstag: MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: This is my point, if Classic Shell can give you the W7 look and feel without in any way compromising the touchscreen functions then why the hell couldn't MS have done that in the first place?

I take it you never used Windows 7 on a touchscreen device? If you had, you wouldn't claim that classic shell does nothing to compromise the UI in that situation.

What does Classic Shell take away from W8? What can't I do because I have Classic Shell?


Way to dodge the question. When attempting to use a touchscreen and the Classic shell/Vista/W7 start button system, it can be very difficult to select items in the menu, as they're quite narrow (especially on a 12" touchscreen device). Don't even think about trying it with a touchscreen device that isn't perfectly calibrated either. Even if you have small hands and perfect precision, it takes: -> click start menu -> select pull-out menu, Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. To launch a program. That's 5 taps. You could cut down the steps to two if you pin that program to the start menu, but digging down into the submenus is very touch via touch on the old system.

With Win 8, on a touch screen, it's swipe from the left -> start menu -> paint. Three taps (if you have paint pinned to the menu). But more importantly, the motions are much easier to do with your finger and far less precision is required.
 
2012-10-29 02:46:54 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: But I won't be replacing Ubuntu/Windows 7 on my tablet and I don't see any reason why I'd ever put Windows 8 on my desktop..


You'd be missing out on a noticeably faster computer, with far more security, better multimonitor support, longer battery life (for a laptop) and a myriad of OS improvements (pausing/canceling of individual file transfers/deletes).

Heck, for $0 - the improvements in the task manager should be enough. Here's how mine looks right now.
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net

Care to see how much resources different programs have used over the current session?
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Or finally discrete breakdown of throughput on each hard drive and network source?
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net

Again, somewhat minor stuff, but I find it very, very useful - and frustrating when I go back to older systems like W7 and the archaic XP.
 
2012-10-29 02:50:10 PM
Was Windows 7 working too well? Yeah let's f**k that up.
 
2012-10-29 02:51:40 PM

Lost Thought 00: Krieghund: I have little demand for Windows 8, because I'm still happy with Windows 7.

They'll be releasing some updates soon in order to fix that problem


Yeah, can't wait until all my current computers start mysteriously slowing down to the point where I am forced to buy a new machine if I want to do anything internet-related. Yay.
 
2012-10-29 02:54:22 PM
Sounds like the interface on my wife's phone. Locks up for no reason and/or stops processing calls and texts.

Nice to know the re-boot still works ... sort-of ... for a while. It's traditional.
 
2012-10-29 03:04:13 PM

natazha: Sounds like the interface on my wife's phone. Locks up for no reason and/or stops processing calls and texts.

Nice to know the re-boot still works ... sort-of ... for a while. It's traditional.


She must have Android
My 12 year daughter old understood W8 within a hour
/She's not a wiz by any standard
 
2012-10-29 03:04:52 PM
Also, for those of you who like to refresh/reinstall your operating system, these new settings in the control panel of Win8 are pretty damned nice.
sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2012-10-29 03:06:46 PM

MrSteve007: Also, for those of you who like to refresh/reinstall your operating system, these new settings in the control panel of Win8 are pretty damned nice.


Hey, so how well will it install over an existing Win 7 installation?

Can it be uninstalled leaving the original Win 7?
 
2012-10-29 03:07:34 PM

MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: MrSteve007: Flint Ironstag: This is my point, if Classic Shell can give you the W7 look and feel without in any way compromising the touchscreen functions then why the hell couldn't MS have done that in the first place?

I take it you never used Windows 7 on a touchscreen device? If you had, you wouldn't claim that classic shell does nothing to compromise the UI in that situation.

What does Classic Shell take away from W8? What can't I do because I have Classic Shell?

Way to dodge the question. When attempting to use a touchscreen and the Classic shell/Vista/W7 start button system, it can be very difficult to select items in the menu, as they're quite narrow (especially on a 12" touchscreen device). Don't even think about trying it with a touchscreen device that isn't perfectly calibrated either. Even if you have small hands and perfect precision, it takes: -> click start menu -> select pull-out menu, Programs -> Accessories -> Paint. To launch a program. That's 5 taps. You could cut down the steps to two if you pin that program to the start menu, but digging down into the submenus is very touch via touch on the old system.

With Win 8, on a touch screen, it's swipe from the left -> start menu -> paint. Three taps (if you have paint pinned to the menu). But more importantly, the motions are much easier to do with your finger and far less precision is required.




But Classic Shell doesn't take away the touch functions. I still have the Charm pop up on the right, the last used windows on the left, the Metro desktop etc etc.

If you're using it with touch go right ahead. Don't use the Start button and menu. Use the W8 menu, like Metro instead. AFAIF Classic Shell doesn't take away any of those functions. It just adds the W7 functions like Start. You can customise what things like the Windows button do to suit you.
 
2012-10-29 03:14:09 PM
Man, they really screwed the pooch on PR for this one. Everything I've seen is negative.
 
2012-10-29 03:16:42 PM

RoyBatty: MrSteve007: Also, for those of you who like to refresh/reinstall your operating system, these new settings in the control panel of Win8 are pretty damned nice.

Hey, so how well will it install over an existing Win 7 installation?

Can it be uninstalled leaving the original Win 7?


I had a pretty old (3 year) installation of Win 7 Pro 64-bit, with a ton of corporate cruft on it. It warned me that some of my old programs from the OEM (like Toshiba update) won't work on the new OS, and the major one that I had to uninstall was an older version Symantec.

During my first update attempt, it appeared to have frozen up during the last stages, so I crossed my fingers and did a hard reboot (mind you, this was mid-install). It came up with a prompt saying something along the lines: "It appears your install did work, restoring Windows 7." It had fully restored Win 7 without issue.

I decided to try again (this time with a reboot, after removing Symantec) and I left for lunch. When I came back, W8 was ready to go. So far I haven't had any program issues (Adobe CS6 Master suite works without issue, same goes for the Autodesk 2013 suite), with exception for the occasional crash of the Outlook 2013 preview during startup - which frankly, for a beta piece of software, is expected.

As for rolling back to Win 7 after full install, it should be doable if you haven't deleted the gigantic windows.old folder, and still have the Win 7 disk. Instructions
 
2012-10-29 03:18:59 PM

MrSteve007: Again, somewhat minor stuff, but I find it very, very useful - and frustrating when I go back to older systems like W7 and the archaic XP.


Shame they didn't release it with a cogent UI.

solyhhit: Was Windows 7 working too well? Yeah let's f**k that up.


Welcome to how MSFT has operated its entire existence. They scramble to please their customers, then get cocky and think they should be an "innovator" and proceed to utterly embarrass themselves. Now they'll have to scramble again.
 
2012-10-29 03:24:08 PM

NowhereMon: It's a tablet, it's a laptop , it's a tablet, it's a laptop...


Relax, man, you're two tents!
 
2012-10-29 03:26:19 PM

AcneVulgaris: Man, they really screwed the pooch on PR for this one. Everything I've seen is negative.


It's a shame because I like it (at least with Classic Shell or Start8) and it seems to run very fast, and supposedly far more secure under the hood.

It's a shame they screwed up the 'classic' desktop by taking away things for no reason. As I have said above they can exist perfectly well side by side and let you use it exactly like W7 with a mouse and keyboard but if and when you want to use it by touch all the touch functions are still there.

They should have either kept Desktop as a pure mouse/keyboard US and had Metro as the touch UI or added touch to Desktop without taking away the classic functions like Start etc.

It'll be interesting to see if they get feedback on how many people install Classic Shell or Start 8. If the numbers are significant and keep growing then how can any business ignore that and refuse to offer that option themselves? I could see MS producing their own and calling it the Enterprise Accessibility Pack or something.
 
2012-10-29 03:26:41 PM
Here's a trick if you want to replace the "All Programs" functionality on the Win 8 taskbar, without installing a shell -- the taskbar still supports "toolbars", which are essentially just folders with shortcuts in them. So unlock the taskbar, right-select Toolbars > New Toolbar, and enter "C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\" in the path window. Select the "Programs" folder. Now just drag that toolbar to the far left of the taskbar, then drag the pinned apps back up against it until there's just "Programs >>" there on the left.

When you want to access a program, just click the little ">>".

Installer programs still put shortcuts there. There are still the Admin Tools and other Win 8 desktop programs shortcuts in there.

Want shutdown/restart buttons? Make a quick powershell script using variations of the "shutdown" command, and put the shortcuts there.

Haven't figured out a different non-Metro "search" yet, but with all my toolbar/taskbar and desktop project folder OCD, I don't really need it.


...I'm still only monkeying around with it in a VM, but I'm tempted by the multimonitor improvements (different toolbars on different monitors? Joy!), HyperV (but no 3-D acceleration, boo!), the new taskmanager (cleaner than procshow), and the performance improvements. But I'm still not convinced enough to put it on the bare metal yet.

*shrug*
 
2012-10-29 03:31:23 PM

jaylectricity: I thought everybody knew to use every other new OS from Microsoft...2000, XP, 7...I'll be waiting for whatever comes AFTER 8.



Ya nailed it.
 
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