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(Telegraph)   Want to work for Williams F1? Then try this simple maths test. Difficulty: No calculators   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 138
    More: Interesting, Williams F1, square roots, Olds College, complex question, decimals, failure rate, practical tests, logs  
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10962 clicks; posted to Geek » on 28 Oct 2012 at 6:35 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-10-28 01:08:00 PM  
I am speechless.
 
2012-10-28 01:17:27 PM  
God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.
 
2012-10-28 01:22:38 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.


... seriously?

Percent.
 
2012-10-28 01:40:20 PM  
I couldn't do the logs because I haven't used them in over 36 years, I just don't remember how to use them. All the others are simple head math for me.
 
2012-10-28 01:40:48 PM  

kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.


Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.
 
2012-10-28 01:52:43 PM  
The logs messed with me but that's because it's been almost 30 years since I had to do any of that.
 
2012-10-28 01:58:06 PM  
Ditto Tarkus on the logs questions. The rest were painfully simple.
 
2012-10-28 01:58:36 PM  
I got 100%

It's all thanks to mandated government schooling here in the US. If the government hadn't forcibly taken money from my neighbors and used that forcibly taken money to build schools and give it to unionized teachers and forced me to go to school, I never would have learned this stuff. Thank god the government was looking out for me.
 
2012-10-28 02:06:10 PM  

oldernell: I am speechless.


I dropped out of high-school at the beginning of my 11th grade year, and I had no problems with this test.
 
2012-10-28 02:46:48 PM  
maths is maths
 
2012-10-28 05:18:39 PM  
Wow, kids today don't break down problems in a way that would be useful to calculate using a slide rule and fractions?
 
2012-10-28 06:39:45 PM  
Same as others, I got everything but the logs. Most of it was done in my head, a few were written out on scrap paper.
 
2012-10-28 06:40:54 PM  
FTFA:Williams F1 struggling to find recruits with maths skills

Maybe they should find someone who understands the Englishs to write the test?

/i know i know, but it sounds so wrong.
 
2012-10-28 06:45:43 PM  
Did anyone say 42 yet?

How about "I was told there would be no math"

Just want to make sure this is a Fark thread is all....
 
2012-10-28 06:45:48 PM  

Tarkus: I couldn't do the logs because I haven't used them in over 36 years, I just don't remember how to use them. All the others are simple head math for me.


I couldn't do the logs becausee, well, I've NEVER done logs. Yeah, everything was head math. WTF?

On the downside, though, I've noticed that most college graduates can't string together a proper sentence.
 
2012-10-28 06:47:26 PM  

Mayhem of the Black Underclass: FTFA:Williams F1 struggling to find recruits with maths skills

Maybe they should find someone who understands the Englishs to write the test?

/i know i know, but it sounds so wrong.


Are you unaware that "maths" is an acronym.
 
2012-10-28 06:48:35 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.


I can't recall ever seeing pc instead of %. Have I just not been paying attention my whole life, or is that some British convention?
 
2012-10-28 06:55:58 PM  

xelnia: Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.

I can't recall ever seeing pc instead of %. Have I just not been paying attention my whole life, or is that some British convention?


I would imagine the company want people who just get the job done, even if it is not obvious what the job is.
 
2012-10-28 07:00:26 PM  
Aced it. But I probably wouldn't have as a teenager. The only reason I can do it in my head now is that I wouldn't be able to make a living if I couldn't.
 
2012-10-28 07:00:53 PM  
I'll be honest, missed the log questions cause it's been too long. With a calculator, and maybe enough time and lack of apathy would have done those too.

For those who haven't seen pc before... you couldn't guess that meant %?

Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer. They really need to be specific like writing it as lowest termed fraction or similar.
 
2012-10-28 07:01:57 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.


pence. So..
0.1771 and 0.2012 USD

/Am I doing it right?
 
2012-10-28 07:02:12 PM  
Include me in the "forgot how log arithmetic works" group.
 
2012-10-28 07:04:57 PM  

Quantumbunny: I'll be honest, missed the log questions cause it's been too long. With a calculator, and maybe enough time and lack of apathy would have done those too.

For those who haven't seen pc before... you couldn't guess that meant %?

Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer. They really need to be specific like writing it as lowest termed fraction or similar.


Yeah. But would you really want to hire an engineer that answered 9/30 even if technically correct?
 
2012-10-28 07:08:54 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.


I've never seen that convention either. I figured it out quickly enough, but for a split second I was wondering WTF a parsec was doing in a basic math test.
 
2012-10-28 07:10:23 PM  
I have a degree in physics and I couldn't remember the log rules. It's simply been too long. And I will agree with everybody who complained about the "pc" questions. That's got to be a British thing. If they would have said % they would have been obvious answers.
 
2012-10-28 07:16:24 PM  

xelnia: Have I just not been paying attention my whole life, or is that some British convention?


If the answer to one of those is yes is does not preclude the answer to the other being yes.
 
2012-10-28 07:20:54 PM  
The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.
 
2012-10-28 07:22:20 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.


Meh, it's a British abbreviation. Unless you are actually British, in which case you should have known better. But along those lines, that wasn't hard except for the logarithms (although I could make pretty reasonable guesses but forget the actual formulas). Anyway, it would have been a little bit easier if that had been in American notation, i.e. asking for 7 squared rather than the square of 7, etc.
 
2012-10-28 07:27:21 PM  
Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.
 
2012-10-28 07:34:01 PM  

ChubbyTiger: Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.


Maybe to check if you can actually think on your feet. It's not like it's terribly hard working out the answers to those even if you don't remember exactly the rules.

You can either work backwards from the definition of logs (opposite of exponents), or if you kinda sorta remember, you could definitely check a few examples and make sure it's right and then go from there.
 
2012-10-28 07:35:27 PM  

Loki009: Quantumbunny: I'll be honest, missed the log questions cause it's been too long. With a calculator, and maybe enough time and lack of apathy would have done those too.

For those who haven't seen pc before... you couldn't guess that meant %?

Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer. They really need to be specific like writing it as lowest termed fraction or similar.

Yeah. But would you really want to hire an engineer that answered 9/30 even if technically correct?


You're always supposed to reduce to lowest denominator anyway.
 
2012-10-28 07:35:33 PM  
Got all but the log questions.

/haven't used log tables in years.
 
2012-10-28 07:38:03 PM  
The only way I remember how to work logs quickly is a variation of this: Link
 
2012-10-28 07:38:20 PM  

Loki009: Quantumbunny: I'll be honest, missed the log questions cause it's been too long. With a calculator, and maybe enough time and lack of apathy would have done those too.

For those who haven't seen pc before... you couldn't guess that meant %?

Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer. They really need to be specific like writing it as lowest termed fraction or similar.

Yeah. But would you really want to hire an engineer that answered 9/30 even if technically correct?


Depends. I like my coworkers and employees snarky and sarcastic. So, if they did everything else right and seemed smart enough, I would, indeed.
 
2012-10-28 07:38:27 PM  

ChubbyTiger: Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.


As DON.MAC implied, that's a fundamental part of using a slide rule. The fact that they included them in a test of elementary mathematical literacy certainly suggests something about their perspective.

/Now that the maths section is over, it's time for the practical exam. You'll find a deer antler and a piece of flint under your desks; you have twenty minutes to make a spear head.
 
2012-10-28 07:39:03 PM  
My Mom's a retired junior high math teacher. She liked to teach the 'tricks' that make a lot of these easy:

11% of 250 is easy if you separate 11% into 1%+10%, or 2.5+25=27.5

She also taught math games you can do in your head:

Take any non-repeating number (like 222) and subtract the reverse. Ask the person with the calculator for the number in the 1's place OR the 100's place. The answer will always be that the 1's place pluse the 100's place will equal 9. The 10's place will always be 9:

854-458=396
3+6=9
There is a 9 in the 10's place.

Fun!
 
2012-10-28 07:40:15 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy.


I did the log ones by remembering log a=b can be converted to a=10^b. Then it's just manipulating exponents. For the first one, a=10^b becomes 10a=10^b*10=10^(b+1). For the second, it was a*c*10^-2=10^b*10^d*10^-2, so the answer was b+d-2.

I screwed up problem 10. Bah, I should have checked my work.

One day in eighth grade I loaned my calculator to my brother, only to find out we had a class-wide math test that day. I had the best score, doing everything by hand. Long division, multiplication, all by hand on paper.

/CSB
//I've probably used some logarithms at work since college
///power company engineer
////a rare one that does some real math on rare occasions
 
2012-10-28 07:40:45 PM  
was taugh freakin cube root in grade 5. ..never mind lowly square. My kids are taught square root means using a calculator
 
2012-10-28 07:41:17 PM  
*Three digit non-repeating number...
 
2012-10-28 07:47:03 PM  

kvinesknows: was taugh freakin cube root in grade 5. ..never mind lowly square. My kids are taught square root means using a calculator


I was never taught how to do square roots properly by hand either. I could figure it out to an arbitrary precision with an iterative method, but I'd have to REALLY want to know what the root is and not have a calculator around to do it.

I have the perfect squares memorized up to 252 (or I used to.) But beyond that, I'm going for a calculator.
 
2012-10-28 07:50:05 PM  
You dedicate your life to math, only to have some rich boy ram your elegant solution to complex equations into a wall.
 
2012-10-28 07:57:35 PM  

xelnia: Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.

I can't recall ever seeing pc instead of %. Have I just not been paying attention my whole life, or is that some British convention?


It must not be used in the civilized world. I have never seen it used that way. Ever. Not in a text book, in class, or on TV.
 
kab
2012-10-28 07:57:54 PM  
So in other words, Williams doesn't pay very well.
 
2012-10-28 07:58:13 PM  

ChubbyTiger: Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.


One day my log will have something to say about this.
 
2012-10-28 08:00:27 PM  
So, if one can just do basic math one can get a job with McLaren?

In THIS country, students get in over their head in debt for a good four-year college degree, and *might* be lucky enough to get a callback *someday* from a company which may or may not be related to one's field of education, but most likely will be unemployed & living at home with parents?

WHAT. 

i548.photobucket.com
Angry chipmunk!
 
2012-10-28 08:18:44 PM  
It's farking arithmetic. I was expecting to see differential geometry or vector calculus.
 
2012-10-28 08:20:12 PM  
I can get them all, but no way in two minutes. It took me a couple minutes to figure out the logs and that was the time to realize that I knew something besides log 3 and log 4 -- I knew log 10. After that it was trivial. (Give me a break, its been years since I actually had used them and other than a little bit in high school I have never used them for their original calculation purpose.)

The doing stuff in the head bit might be expecting much. Lets face it, with calculators most everyone gets rusty once they leave grade school.
 
2012-10-28 08:20:23 PM  
Number 5 is a fargin trick question, those iceholes!
 
2012-10-28 08:21:42 PM  
Do these logs roll down stairs alone, or in pairs? How the hell are you supposed to figure it out with pertinent info missing?
 
2012-10-28 08:22:11 PM  
Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer.

Given everyone on Top Gear says "point three of a second" instead of "three tenths", it's not surprising the brits don't get this one.

/also, they don't know what "brake horsepower" means
 
2012-10-28 08:27:35 PM  
100% correct in 64 seconds. Next.
 
2012-10-28 08:31:19 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.


Thank you for explaining logs; it was the only part of the test that I looked at and went "yeah, I have no recollection on how to do that from high school". I got all the other questions right by doing them in my head (though I did check my math on paper for a few of them to make sure I didn't bungle it).
 
2012-10-28 08:34:29 PM  

ChubbyTiger: Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.


They're not looking for people who can manipulate logarithms, they're looking for people who can think in "log-space", comprehending the idea of multiplicative distance rather than simple linear distance. Most of physics and engineering assumes mastery of log-space as a base-level expectation for participation.
 
2012-10-28 08:35:31 PM  
they can't spell "math" either.
 
2012-10-28 08:37:47 PM  
Meanwhile, I'm over hear measuring the length and diameter of the drum in my old washing machine to find out what the volume was in order to get a comparably sized new machine

// couldn't find the damn specs anywhere

// Turns out, you can't compare volume to volume on top loaders vs front loaders because though the volume is the same, the useable capacity is lower due to the way they wash clothing. End result, I have to wash my comforters at a laundry now :( ... math == pass, mechanical engineering == fail.

// programmer

// pi × r^2 × h
 
2012-10-28 08:43:21 PM  
I got 81 on the algebra one, but now I see what I did wrong. I missed the logs because I never had those in school. Otherwise, I did them in my head and got all the others correct.
 
2012-10-28 08:45:17 PM  
i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.

after seeing this im surprised that their applicants cant do it. i was expecting much harder questions.
 
2012-10-28 09:00:11 PM  

KerwoodDerby: They're not looking for people who can manipulate logarithms, they're looking for people who can think in "log-space", comprehending the idea of multiplicative distance rather than simple linear distance. Most of physics and engineering assumes mastery of log-space as a base-level expectation for participation.


I disagree. They are looking for people who know how to break up problems the same way you would needed to if you were using a slide rule from 60 years ago when the test was made. You can find high school math books from that era that don't cover decimals very well because fractions were assumed to be easier to work with.
 
2012-10-28 09:02:46 PM  
I got them all except this one.

2 + 3 = ?
 
2012-10-28 09:05:05 PM  

The Flexecutioner: i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.

after seeing this im surprised that their applicants cant do it. i was expecting much harder questions.


it's 7 squared, not square root
 
2012-10-28 09:06:02 PM  
Am I the only one that doesn't use math enough to do this quickly (had to write out the long division, multiplication, and 2nd log one), or did people miss the part where you have 2 minutes to complete 15 questions?  I would have needed at least 2:30 to do it the first time.
 
2012-10-28 09:10:24 PM  

redTiburon: they can't spell "math" either.


Maths is the correct abbreviation in English. Math is the correct abbreviation in American English. The article is from a British newspaper about a story from Britain therefore English is the correct language to use and not American English.

Back to the article I'm not surprised as apprenticeships are normally for people who leave school at 16 because they don't fit into academic education. If they had the raw ability to do these maths problems in their heads they should be doing post 16 education in one of the alphabet soup qualifications (A levels, NVQs, GNVQ's, BTecs, HND's etc)
 
2012-10-28 09:14:45 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.


What the farking fark?
 
2012-10-28 09:15:36 PM  
I missed 4 (couldn't do in head)
and 9 and 10 because didn't know what pc meant.
 
2012-10-28 09:16:30 PM  

Cluckity: I got them all except this one.

2 + 3 = ?


did you notice which question number it was? =3
 
2012-10-28 09:17:00 PM  

KerwoodDerby: ChubbyTiger: Like everyone else, incredibly simple except for the logs, which I haven't seen in 20+ yrs. I have to wonder why they would care about logs.

They're not looking for people who can manipulate logarithms, they're looking for people who can think in "log-space", comprehending the idea of multiplicative distance rather than simple linear distance. Most of physics and engineering assumes mastery of log-space as a base-level expectation for participation.


Heck, even birds can work out such things...

burnabrain.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-10-28 09:17:05 PM  

HighZoolander: The Flexecutioner: i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.

after seeing this im surprised that their applicants cant do it. i was expecting much harder questions.

it's 7 squared, not square root


haha, thanks. totally missed that.
 
2012-10-28 09:22:56 PM  
Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(
 
2012-10-28 09:25:29 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(


yeah, it's long division without writing it down for me.
 
2012-10-28 09:27:37 PM  

Cluckity: I got them all except this one.

2 + 3 = ?


I actually did miss that one.

But that's cuz my eyes are old and shot, and I thunk'd it was "2 dividedbysign 3".

/would've gotten that one right, tho
 
2012-10-28 09:36:54 PM  

The Flexecutioner: Uchiha_Cycliste: Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(

yeah, it's long division without writing it down for me.


damnit... I was able to ballpark the first digit, and the last was easy. But couldn't get the whole thing. I feels dumb.
 
2012-10-28 09:39:45 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.


I need to spend some time with the Wolfram section on logs. The rest of it was easy, I'm used to doing FEA octahedral strain matrices by hand. That's matrices full of trigonometry.

Uchiha_Cycliste: Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(


It's not that hard but I don't think your math teacher would like my explanation.
First pass 9*800 =7200 ... 513
Second pass 9*50 = 450 ... 63
Third pass 9*7=63 ... 0

So 7713/9=857. It's why they drill multiplication tables into you early on, but 9's the easy one. I'd need a little scratch paper to do the multiplication, I just got home from the gym and I'm tired.
 
2012-10-28 09:41:09 PM  
I still remember the day in high school more than 30 years ago where I had it click on logs. "A log is an exponent". It finally dawn on me: A log was a freaking EXPONENT. I could use the same rules as exponents, just without having to write the base down.

I used to tutor. I told my students that the key to understanding math was to realize mathematicians are lazy. If you think about it, even Arabic numerals are a short cut: People got tired of making tick marks. 5*7 is easier write than 5+5+5+5+5+5+5. Etc. If you don't remember how to work at one level, back it up one level of short cuts.
 
2012-10-28 09:44:47 PM  

wildcardjack: Uchiha_Cycliste: Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(

It's not that hard but I don't think your math teacher would like my explanation.
First pass 9*800 =7200 ... 513
Second pass 9*50 = 450 ... 63
Third pass 9*7=63 ... 0

So 7713/9=857. It's why they drill multiplication tables into you early on, but 9's the easy one. I'd need a little scratch paper to do the multiplication, I just got home from the gym and I'm tired.



That's slick, thanks for laying it out for me. I has dissapoint.
However, I bet I can use hex and binary faster than the lot of ya =P
 
2012-10-28 09:44:58 PM  

spentmiles: 100% correct in 64 seconds. Next.


I too got 100% in 64 seconds.

Granted, there are lots of 64 seconds within 2 hours...
 
2012-10-28 09:46:07 PM  
About the log stuff:

We were taught a pretty simple rule to remember the logarithm laws:
Always 'downgrade' the operator to its less powerful cousin, which means:
if you have a log of a multiplication, you downgrade from multiplication to addition (log of product = sum of logs).
And if you have a log of a division, you downgrade from log of division to subtraction of logs.

Somewhat similar with the log of a power being downgraded from power to multiplication, i.e. log a^b = b * log a 


/ we were also taught about using "lg" instead of "log" when referring to log10 and not wanting to write out the base
 
2012-10-28 09:49:01 PM  
The multiplication was easy, 7523 x 8 just had to remember the carry and the sum,
8 and 3 .. 2 / 4

8*2 + 2 .. 1 / 84

8*5 + 1 .. 4 / 184
8 * 7 + 4 60,185
 
2012-10-28 09:52:15 PM  
In some ways they tried to make things easy for people who remember basic relationships that they use as part of their job.

For example, 0.125 = 1/8

So asking for 1.125 of a number that's a single digit multiple of eight should be obvious to people who use imperial units all the time. IOW, 1 1/8 inches on your ruler is 1.125 on your caliper.
 
2012-10-28 09:59:48 PM  
wildcardjack
It's not that hard but I don't think your math teacher would like my explanation.
First pass 9*800 =7200 ... 513
Second pass 9*50 = 450 ... 63
Third pass 9*7=63 ... 0


Not sure the math teacher would have a problem with this; it's essentially long division without using paper.
Although I suspect that you didn't start with 9*800, but rather by automatically doing something like this:
"7 through 9 is less than 1, lets add the next digit"
-> "can divide 78 through 9"
-> "78=72 plus change or rather 9*8 plus change"
-> "lets add the appropriate numbers of zeros"
-> "9*800=7200"
 
2012-10-28 10:09:16 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: kmmontandon: Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.

... seriously?

Percent.

Seriously. It never occurred to me. I can do calculus in my head but can't read a basic arithmetic problem.

Yeah, I know, I suck.


do you do it well?
 
2012-10-28 10:11:47 PM  
I somehow picked up pc for percent somewhere along the way, so that was no problem. Logs, however, I learned and worked with so long ago they only sounded familiar, no anything I can still do.

That said, Williams would be a dream job if it weren't for the fact that I believe they're pretty tight-assed.
 
2012-10-28 10:17:21 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: The multiplication was easy, 7523 x 8 just had to remember the carry and the sum,
8 and 3 .. 2 / 4

8*2 + 2 .. 1 / 84

8*5 + 1 .. 4 / 184
8 * 7 + 4 60,185


8 * (3/4 of 10,000) = 3/4 of 80,000 = 60,000
or 8 * 2500 (= 20,000) * 3 = 60,000

then add 8 * 23 (= 184)

60,184.
 
2012-10-28 10:18:04 PM  
What Williams NEEDS is two recruits that can pass a driving test.
 
2012-10-28 10:19:02 PM  

HighZoolander: Uchiha_Cycliste: The multiplication was easy, 7523 x 8 just had to remember the carry and the sum,
8 and 3 .. 2 / 4

8*2 + 2 .. 1 / 84

8*5 + 1 .. 4 / 184
8 * 7 + 4 60,185

8 * (3/4 of 10,000) = 3/4 of 80,000 = 60,000
or 8 * 2500 (= 20,000) * 3 = 60,000

then add 8 * 23 (= 184)

60,184.


i think his was just a final typo on the 5. he knew 24 from the first line then followed it with 4 for the rest til the final tally.
 
2012-10-28 10:23:08 PM  

HighZoolander: Uchiha_Cycliste: The multiplication was easy, 7523 x 8 just had to remember the carry and the sum,
8 and 3 .. 2 / 4

8*2 + 2 .. 1 / 84

8*5 + 1 .. 4 / 184
8 * 7 + 4 60,185

8 * (3/4 of 10,000) = 3/4 of 80,000 = 60,000
or 8 * 2500 (= 20,000) * 3 = 60,000

then add 8 * 23 (= 184)

60,184.


that's sorta sneaky, I wouldn't have seen the 7500 in there.
(I should have noted the mult. post was directed at wildcardjack.)
 
2012-10-28 10:24:48 PM  

The Flexecutioner: HighZoolander: Uchiha_Cycliste: The multiplication was easy, 7523 x 8 just had to remember the carry and the sum,
8 and 3 .. 2 / 4

8*2 + 2 .. 1 / 84

8*5 + 1 .. 4 / 184
8 * 7 + 4 60,185

8 * (3/4 of 10,000) = 3/4 of 80,000 = 60,000
or 8 * 2500 (= 20,000) * 3 = 60,000

then add 8 * 23 (= 184)

60,184.

i think his was just a final typo on the 5. he knew 24 from the first line then followed it with 4 for the rest til the final tally.


I did what now?.. damn..
what HighZoolander showed was an entirely different way of getting the answer going in the opposite direction that I went. A sneaky one at that.
 
2012-10-28 10:27:49 PM  
i see that now. i thought he was correcting your typo of 60,185 in your original post. but yeah, he was showing another way to look at it.
 
2012-10-28 10:32:05 PM  

The Flexecutioner: i see that now. i thought he was correcting your typo of 60,185 in your original post. but yeah, he was showing another way to look at it.


I wonder if either he or I would have seen the typo if you hadn't mentioned it, most embarrassing OBO ever.
 
2012-10-28 10:34:28 PM  
Mr Burns said he was considering whether to update the tests - as they are more than 50 years old - but at the end of the day, "maths is maths".

Immediate mental image:
media.giantbomb.com

/scarier still, my mental path went: Mr. Burns => Matt Groening => Futurama => the construction guy who pluralizes everything
 
2012-10-28 10:35:45 PM  
If you have one bucket that contains 2 gallons and another bucket that contains 7 gallons, how many buckets do you have?

/i like money
 
2012-10-28 10:37:38 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.


Thanks. Forgot all of the log stuff. The rest I could pretty much do in my head. I'm not a math major either so its kind of scary.
 
2012-10-28 10:39:03 PM  
From their answer key:
5/16 / 1/8 = 2.5

Um, why did you convert from fraction to decimal? 5/2 is a perfectly cromulent reduction of that expression.
 
2012-10-28 10:42:51 PM  

poot_rootbeer: From their answer key:
5/16 / 1/8 = 2.5

Um, why did you convert from fraction to decimal? 5/2 is a perfectly cromulent reduction of that expression.


Especially since rearranging the rems gives you 5*8/16
 
2012-10-28 10:50:49 PM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.


Obviously. Duh.
 
2012-10-28 11:22:12 PM  

BarryJV: xelnia: Have I just not been paying attention my whole life, or is that some British convention?

If the answer to one of those is yes is does not preclude the answer to the other being yes.


Oh snap. You're right.
 
2012-10-28 11:49:33 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.


www2.b3ta.com
 
2012-10-28 11:58:08 PM  
as a follower of F1, the problems at williams are much bigger than maths.
 
2012-10-28 11:59:02 PM  
Wow, those were easy, you gotta be a coulter to fail that test.

/we are still making this a thing right?
 
2012-10-29 12:15:39 AM  
Opens thread.
Reads posts.
Scuttles back out of thread and slams the door shut.
 
2012-10-29 12:17:10 AM  
I got everything but the logs, because no one cares about logs. If you have an non-liner line or point you just use a function to show it. Log is a waste of time.
 
2012-10-29 12:31:23 AM  

StopLurkListen: So, if one can just do basic math one can get a job with McLaren?

In THIS country, students get in over their head in debt for a good four-year college degree, and *might* be lucky enough to get a callback *someday* from a company which may or may not be related to one's field of education, but most likely will be unemployed & living at home with parents?

WHAT. 

[i548.photobucket.com image 506x700]
Angry chipmunk!


STOP READING MY DIARY.
 
2012-10-29 01:45:16 AM  
Got everything but the logs, which I've never encountered before. What did they say, better than half is passing?

So when do I start? I can even put up with people saying "maths" instead of "math." Because I'm as diverse as a Civil War era warship.
 
2012-10-29 01:55:39 AM  

Abner Doon: The log stuff is pretty easy. Just remember log (a*b) = log a + log b and log(a/b) = log a - log b

So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

The second one is cuter, log (.12) = log(12/100) = log 12 - log 100 = log (3*4) - log 100 = log 3 + log 4 - log 100.

The rest is just simple arithmatic to get the actual numbers.


Daaaarg! The last one caught me out because I calculated log 0.3 plus log 0.4 by simply making the log 3 and log 4 values negative.

Logsdontworkthatway.jpg

Used to teach this stuff, but mostly got it wrong cuz I got cocky.
 
2012-10-29 02:01:53 AM  

russlar: as a follower of F1, the problems at williams are much bigger than maths.


Actually, the inability of their employees to complete this test might explain their standings.

They should have Maldonado take it.

"what is five times five?" -- MALDONADO CRASH!!

/like hulk smash, but instead of smash, crash, cuz it's maldonado.
 
2012-10-29 02:15:49 AM  
I thought the math test would be something crazy and I'd end up thinking, "Holy cow, people can do this without a calculator?"
I'm legit surprised that this is their barrier for entry.
 
2012-10-29 02:18:42 AM  
Just six young people passed, with 10 failing to get more than half the answers right - a failure rate of two-thirds.

10/16 = 2/3?
 
2012-10-29 02:30:39 AM  
Am I the only one who finds the word 'maths' grating, feeling that there shouldn't be an 's' there?
 
2012-10-29 02:53:05 AM  
Question 9: What is 11pc of 250 = ?

img.ffffound.com
 
2012-10-29 03:05:13 AM  
I am a mathematical illiterate (it is something tied to the ADHD) the amusing thing is on IQ tests I come out as a mathematical genius, but I am incapable of remembering the processes for any length of time. So any time I want to do anything mathematical I need to look up the rule/process for the work I want to do and I can then do it (until I stop, then I need to look it up again).
I didn't do maths for my final years of school (got an advanced B in my year 10 leaving certificate and figured that was all the maths I was going to usefully use in life) but since then I have done some uni accounting (as part of a MBA) and found that nothing has changed, maths is easy apart from the remembering, which is hard. Oh and I also can't hold a number in my head, I forget my own street number with monotonous regularity, which makes mental arithmetic annoying as hell. Still, like the constipated accountant, I can always work it out with paper and a pencil.

That said, I know I am not the person the Williams team is looking for. That person would be my 11 year old son. Precocious little git just 'knows' how maths should be, he was riding in the car some years ago with his oldest sister and her friends, they were discussing some equation to do with multiplying negatives with positives. They were middle school (14) and he was 9 at the time, he looked at them puzzled and shouted out the answer. Quick look at the back of the book confirmed he was right and the girls had a fun trip shouting equations at him and trying to work out how he kept getting them right (I doubt he could have explained how he knew, he just did).

Yeah yeah CSB and TL;DR
 
2012-10-29 05:44:00 AM  

NIXON YOU DOLT!!!!!: On the downside, though, I've noticed that most college graduates can't string together a proper sentence.


I blame Yoda.
 
2012-10-29 06:23:50 AM  
Got them all apart from the log ones
 
2012-10-29 06:41:01 AM  

Foxxinnia: I thought the math test would be something crazy and I'd end up thinking, "Holy cow, people can do this without a calculator?"


Heh, that's exactly what I was thinking also. Was expecting an interesting challenge, or perhaps even personal chagrin. Then clicked and saw "2 + 3 = ?". Seriously?
 
2012-10-29 07:26:02 AM  
Considering that F1 racing is fixed, they should look for recruits from the WWE & TNA wrestling.
 
2012-10-29 08:35:16 AM  
My sixth grader can do all of those. That cannot seriously be the test, is it? Are we that farked?
 
2012-10-29 09:11:10 AM  
I find this disturbingly funny. Back home, students are not allowed to use calculators until college. So yeah.. I am getting a kick out of it
 
2012-10-29 09:44:34 AM  

Quantumbunny:
Also, being generic as writing things like write .3 as a fraction... 3/10 is not the only valid answer. They really need to be specific like writing it as lowest termed fraction or similar.


It isn't the only answer, true. There are infinite answers numerically. However, if you know your decimal places (tenths, hundreds, thousandths) then 3/10 is the only answer. Plus, the rules of mathematics explicitly state that a fraction is only correct when it cannot be reduced further than integer values. Thus, 30/100 is not correct. Same numeric value, but the fraction isn't fully reduced.
 
2012-10-29 10:22:59 AM  
debbie_does_dishes
Plus, the rules of mathematics explicitly state

The what?


a fraction is only correct when it cannot be reduced further than integer values.


That sounds more like "you only get full points if.." and not something mathematical, i.e. someone grading a test might require fractions to be reduced, but that doesn't make 0.3=30/100 less correct.
 
2012-10-29 10:56:04 AM  

Abner Doon: So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.


That one initially stumped me because I over-thought it. I didn't assume the base was known.
 
2012-10-29 11:07:50 AM  

Ambitwistor: Abner Doon: So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

That one initially stumped me because I over-thought it. I didn't assume the base was known.


I assumed base 2 for a few seconds and was kinda confused why none of the numbers would work out. Then I remembered it's not Comp Sci.
 
2012-10-29 11:28:37 AM  

Dimensio: Mayhem of the Black Underclass: FTFA:Williams F1 struggling to find recruits with maths skills

Maybe they should find someone who understands the Englishs to write the test?

/i know i know, but it sounds so wrong.

Are you unaware that "maths" is an acronym.


I thought everyone knew that...
 
2012-10-29 02:29:28 PM  
For better or worse - for most people, even smart engineer types, they no longer need to manually crunch numbers. The result is, most are familiar with mathematical concepts but are very rusty in actual practice.

This isn't a 'bad' thing, it just reflects a change in the way people operate.

I can truthfully say I would have done better in 8th grade taking this test than I would do now.
 
2012-10-29 02:46:58 PM  
Sixth graders may have knowledge, but not wisdom. If you employ them as engineers they will make a device and blow up your business.
 
2012-10-29 05:03:23 PM  
I thought #7 was the square root of 7 - without a calculator. I thought, "That's more like it! Time to break out Newton's method," and spent 10 minutes to get 2.64 before I reread the question. :-/ 

Probably should have just used the Taylor series in powers of (x-9).

/used to know the "long division"y way, but I forgot it
 
2012-10-29 06:41:29 PM  

Dear Jerk: Sixth graders may have knowledge, but not wisdom. If you employ them as engineers they will make a device and blow up your business.


No, they'll just design a car that goes 0-100 in 8.5 seconds, stops (safely) on a dime the instant it hits 100mph, then makes fart noises and giggles.

/might also have to play with all the controls to find the right combination that opens the door again
 
2012-10-29 09:01:39 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: God, I feel like an idiot - I got all of them except the ones that called for 11pc and 12.5pc. Can't for the life of me remember what that pc means.


Percent. I got all but the log questions. Never learned logs. :(
 
2012-10-29 09:23:27 PM  

The Flexecutioner: i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.


It didn't ask for the square *root* of 7; that's actually quite challenging. It only asked for the *square*, which is 49.
 
2012-10-29 09:27:33 PM  

Bisu: Am I the only one that doesn't use math enough to do this quickly (had to write out the long division, multiplication, and 2nd log one), or did people miss the part where you have 2 minutes to complete 15 questions?  I would have needed at least 2:30 to do it the first time.


It's uncertain from the way TFA is written, but I believe there's more than one test, and that part referred to a different one than the one shown: " One of the adding up and subtracting tests is "pretty straightforward", according to the chief executive, although candidates only have two minutes to complete it." It sounds like it refers to a different test that's only addition and subtraction; if that's true, and that test is similar in length to this one, then I'd think two minutes should be sufficient, at least for their purposes. They want their people to be quick at math, not merely able to do it.
 
2012-10-29 09:29:05 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: Were you guys able to do the division without aid?
i feel kinda dumb now =(


I had to do that one longhand, I admit.
 
2012-10-29 09:38:07 PM  

aelat: Just six young people passed, with 10 failing to get more than half the answers right - a failure rate of two-thirds.

10/16 = 2/3?


Uhm, I'm gonna go with "yes. yes it does"

/ok, 10.6/16 = 2/3
 
2012-10-29 09:42:13 PM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: The Flexecutioner: i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.

It didn't ask for the square *root* of 7; that's actually quite challenging. It only asked for the *square*, which is 49.


In the US it's written (in my experience) "7 squared".

Took me a second to figure what they wanted
 
2012-10-29 09:45:19 PM  

The Voice of Doom: debbie_does_dishes
Plus, the rules of mathematics explicitly state

The what?


a fraction is only correct when it cannot be reduced further than integer values.


That sounds more like "you only get full points if.." and not something mathematical, i.e. someone grading a test might require fractions to be reduced, but that doesn't make 0.3=30/100 less correct.


No, it's more like, when they say they want "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth," they're not going to accept this: "Boy that's a toughie I wish I'd thought of eating before this cuz now I'm hungry you know what's really great those Italian subs from Wawa there are no Wawas near me anymore haven't been for years but I still thinkg about those Italian subs and whenever I go south I try to grab one there's a really great Wawa on the way to Richmond if you go through Delmarva what's that oh it's a made-up name for the peninusula on the east side of Chesapeake Bay anyway if you come that way there's a long bridge across and on the west side of that bridge is a huge Wawa and they've got those awesome Italian subs and they're nicer than the Subways where I am yeah I have a friend in Richmond two actually and I'll try to go to D.C. too cuz I know people there know what's also really good Fuddrucker's don't laugh the food is awesome try the ostrich yeah really but man so filling there's only three Dunkin Donuts near Richmond can you believe that there's 55 in Providence ha ha man I really wish I'd eaten before this...."

What they're looking for is something more like, "I was speeding."

Reducing the fraction isn't a law like they're going to break your fingers, but it's a very regular rule and they do expect it. If you don't, they may think you're either ignorant or a smartass. And if you're applying for a job, you don't want to be seen that way. You can argue the academics later with your friends.
 
2012-10-29 09:52:20 PM  

GRCooper: Sylvia_Bandersnatch: The Flexecutioner: i can do all of them except the square root of 7 and the logs without a calculator.

It didn't ask for the square *root* of 7; that's actually quite challenging. It only asked for the *square*, which is 49.

In the US it's written (in my experience) "7 squared".

Took me a second to figure what they wanted


I misread that and the one below it on the first pass, too, but quickly realised that a quiz asking for "2 + 3" isn't likely to have complex square and root questions like that.
 
2012-10-29 11:06:50 PM  
Abner Doon
Ambitwistor: Abner Doon: So the first one, log 40 is cake because thats log (4*10) = log 4 (which is given) + log 10. Since it's log base 10, log 10 = 1.

That one initially stumped me because I over-thought it. I didn't assume the base was known.

I assumed base 2 for a few seconds and was kinda confused why none of the numbers would work out. Then I remembered it's not Comp Sci.


Yeah, I had to check the base, too, because I learned that you use "lg" if you leave out the base and use 10 - like leaving out the base and using "ln" if your base is e.


Sylvia_Bandersnatch
Reducing the fraction isn't a law like they're going to break your fingers, but it's a very regular rule and they do expect it. If you don't, they may think you're either ignorant or a smartass. And if you're applying for a job, you don't want to be seen that way. You can argue the academics later with your friends.


I agree that this is the case and that anything else but writing 3/10 would be obfuscation and look stupid.
As I said, it's a case of "you only get full points if..".

But this still doesn't mean that not reducing a fraction violates some "explicit law of math".
Depending on the problem you have to solve, not reducing some fractions can even have advantages.
 
2012-10-29 11:31:23 PM  

The Voice of Doom: Reducing the fraction isn't a law like they're going to break your fingers, but it's a very regular rule and they do expect it. If you don't, they may think you're either ignorant or a smartass. And if you're applying for a job, you don't want to be seen that way. You can argue the academics later with your friends.

I agree that this is the case and that anything else but writing 3/10 would be obfuscation and look stupid.
As I said, it's a case of "you only get full points if..".

But this still doesn't mean that not reducing a fraction violates some "explicit law of math".
Depending on the problem you have to solve, not reducing some fractions can even have advantages.


Yeah, I said that. And the other thing, too. You seriously just don't like this, that's all. Let it go. Do you talk to prospective employers this way? I had a boss once draw a circle, square, and triangle -- then ask me, "Which are you?" Know what I said? "Circle." Know what I didn't say? "This is farking stupid, what's wrong with you?" The guy was a total pinhead. But he paid real money. This quiz is for job applicants, not pendants looking for an argument.
 
Skr
2012-10-30 08:51:32 AM  
Always been decent at math, did well on the test, only thing I ever really HATED in math was Matrices. Was a great primer for Sudoku thinking though.


"Maths" bothers me a bit. I know it is proper but still, sounds like I'm making fun of someone with a lisp when I say it.
 
2012-10-30 10:55:25 AM  
Hurr, I said "pendants". I'm an arse. Urgh.
 
2012-10-30 05:49:49 PM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: This quiz is for job applicants, not pendants looking for an argument.


Unless it's a job to be a lawyer. LOL
 
2012-10-30 05:57:32 PM  

Sylvia_Bandersnatch: Hurr, I said "pendants". I'm an arse. Urgh.


What somebody performing a job as a pendant might look like.

santarchy.com
 
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